Intersex PCs

[Telok]

Haha, that's a classic. In fact, when I readied a bunch of characters for convention play as a GM, I put that on the elf's character sheet.

Classic? It's practically traditional, I saw it semi-regular 30 years ago. Of course 20 years ago I also had a dwarf whose sex space had "beard" written in it and claimed that the dwarven equal of male/female/him/her/etc. was also "beard".

Getting creeped out by an intersex human when you could run into a Baphomet-worshipping shape-shifting lust demons or changelings or have your physical sex altered or removed by a magic potion is... quaint.

Had a player who once looked under a daemon's robes. They were +2 robes, which is why it was wearing them. Since a description was asked for

Spoiler: potential fishing squick

Show

I thought for a moment and said "several large fish hooks baited with whole squid".

Nobody brought it up again after that.

Honestly if I were designing character sheets I'd try to fit in a short description box and a couple spots for things like virtues, hangups, personality traits, or personal goals.

[SwordCoastTaxi]

Why do we need either? What purpose do they serve?

They create additional diversity in gaming.

Actually, those characters create an almost entirely new language. They don't operate like the usual, which I find, as a GM, interesting.

They look at the setting differently and their social choices diverge enough to impact "what happens next". I have a transgender supervillain that can turn player expectations upside down. Only because that character's expectations of what the world is differs dramatically from most people.

These can be useful inclusions.

[Bohandas]

Had a player who once looked under a daemon's robes. They were +2 robes, which is why it was wearing them. Since a description was asked for

Spoiler: potential fishing squick

Show

I thought for a moment and said "several large fish hooks baited with whole squid".

Nobody brought it up again after that.

So I guess your players aren't fans of the Hellraiser films then? Because that's right along their lines. You could probably write for them.

[Anonymouswizard]

They create additional diversity in gaming.

Actually, those characters create an almost entirely new language. They don't operate like the usual, which I find, as a GM, interesting.

They look at the setting differently and their social choices diverge enough to impact "what happens next". I have a transgender supervillain that can turn player expectations upside down. Only because that character's expectations of what the world is differs dramatically from most people.

These can be useful inclusions.

And that is why we should include specific boxes for gender and/or sex on the character sheet, instead of just letting people write whatever they want in a description box?

[Cluedrew]

I started using “gender” instead of “sex” on character sheets because too many play-testers were putting “yes please.” I wish I was joking.

Its like saying "yes" instead of "both" when someone asks a this or that question. A silly code answer that (I guess) means not asexual. Of course even there are some nuisances it skims over but close enough.

Still I would generally go with the blank description box myself. Covers gender and sexuality, species and race, hair, eyes, skin, build, blemishes and personality. Apocalypse World did something in the middle with an open ended box but a list of prompts/options which (this being Apocalypse World) was different from playbook to playbook.

[JNAProductions]

I don't know about intersex, however I do know that in D&D several of the official character races are functioning sequential hermaphrodites by default. The Changelings can change their physical form - including whether they are male or female - at will, and the Dromites - while usually neither - are capable of temporarily becoming either one given the correct circumstances.

EDIT:
Regarding Trans characters, it might be pointed out that the vast majority of Warforged could be considered trans simply from the fact that they have a gender identity at all, despite being constructs. Even the Lord of Blades, who is a radical robot supremacist, seems to identify as male.

Interesting way to think of that.

To address the general topic, if a player is disruptive, there's a good chance they're gonna be disruptive whatever they play. But, at the same time, I'd still recommend a talk with the player before doing anything drastic-if a player is being more sexual than the others are comfortable with, or more graphically violent, or more ANYTHING than is appropriate, they may not realize that they're causing issues. So, let them know, give them a chance to do better, and only if they ignore the talk or cannot control themselves should you take major action.

[Talakeal]

Its like saying "yes" instead of "both" when someone asks a this or that question. A silly code answer that (I guess) means not asexual. Of course even there are some nuisances it skims over but close enough.

Still I would generally go with the blank description box myself. Covers gender and sexuality, species and race, hair, eyes, skin, build, blemishes and personality. Apocalypse World did something in the middle with an open ended box but a list of prompts/options which (this being Apocalypse World) was different from playbook to playbook.

I think the joke is that they are pretending to think the person asking the question is offering to have sex with them.

I don’t think a blank box works. Information is much easier to find and retain on a form. Plus, I don't think many players would fill it out without a prompt, let alone read anyone else’s, and I want a system that encourages players to at least put a minimum of thought into purely cosmetic character details.

[Silly Name]

I don’t think a blank box works. Information is much easier to find and retain on a form. Plus, I don't think many players would fill it out without a prompt, let alone read anyone else’s, and I want a system that encourages players to at least put a minimum of thought into purely cosmetic character details.

How often do you reckon players look over each other's character sheets, without it being part of a core mechanic? I know I've sometimes gone over a friend's sheet, but it was mostly to check their build - not really paying attention to the cosmetic stuff.

If you want to encourage this by using "check-boxes" (which I agree are a good way to make people feel compelled to fill in these details), just make it clear in the text detailing character creation that you're not limited to binary gender, and you should be fine.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don’t think a blank box works. Information is much easier to find and retain on a form.

And unless this information is important in a game, why does it matter?

Plus, I don't think many players would fill it out without a prompt, let alone read anyone else’s, and I want a system that encourages players to at least put a minimum of thought into purely cosmetic character details.

You won't believe how many character sheets I've seen where all the appearance details are blank.

And so what if most people don't fill it out? Most people don't bother to track what clothes their character is wearing. People should only fill out what'ss important to them and the game rules, and shouldn't feel compelled to give any additional details.

The advantage of a blank box is that it gives a player free reign to decide what's important about their character and isn't prescriptive. The disadvantage is that it gives no inherent starting point. And to go beyond sex and gender I want players to be able to define what's important to them without feeling like they're doing it wrong. That can be gender, but honestly if a player wants to put in their character's voice pitch, standard hairstyle, or to go with the immaturity theme breast size* then they totally should be allowed to treat it as important as gender.

Unless it's actually important to the game concept. Gender/sex rarely is, but could be in more historically accurate settings with strong gender roles.


* Okay, I've seen fully mature women do this as well as teenage boys, like with everything it's how it's approached that matters.

[Talakeal]

And unless this information is important in a game, why does it matter?

I know it doesn't matter to everyone, but it matters to me.

I enjoy fiction first games which I can clearly visualize in my mind.

Deciding subtle details of your character is, for me, the most fun part of the game, and in my experience it isn't really a huge imposition on even the most hack and slash players to decide a few basic details about their character.

Honestly, alignment is that thing that is usually left blank on character sheets in my game because I don't enforce it and people are embarrassed about actually writing Chaotic Evil on their sheet but also don't want to get crap about not acting in accordance when they write Lawful Good.

Unless it's actually important to the game concept. Gender/sex rarely is, but could be in more historically accurate settings with strong gender roles.

Barring one shots, I have literally not played a game in the past twenty years where gender and sex didn't play a huge role in the game.

* Okay, I've seen fully mature women do this as well as teenage boys, like with everything it's how it's approached that matters.

Yeah. While I certainly know what my character's figure looks like, I have never written down anything that specific, and in my experience the only players who ever have are adult women.

[Anonymouswizard]

I know it doesn't matter to everyone, but it matters to me.

I enjoy fiction first games which I can clearly visualize in my mind.

Deciding subtle details of your character is, for me, the most fun part of the game, and in my experience it isn't really a huge imposition on even the most hack and slash players to decide a few basic details about their character.

Honestly, alignment is that thing that is usually left blank on character sheets in my game because I don't enforce it and people are embarrassed about actually writing Chaotic Evil on their sheet but also don't want to get crap about not acting in accordance when they write Lawful Good.

Cool, I also like fiction first games and designing minute details of my character's appearance, sometimes down to individual items of clothing including undies. But at the same time I don't think we should make any of that stuff required. I do tend to prefer to game with people who care about it, but they also tend to be the kind of player who tends to be fine with a blank description box.

What is alignment? Are you supposed to update that everytime you change your position? (honestly alignment only worked in oD&D, BD&D, and 4e)

Barring one shots, I have literally not played a game in the past twenty years where gender and sex didn't play a huge role in the game.

And I've played maybe one where it actually mattered. And that was for an NPC and a GM making a point about institutional sexism (a businesswoman who everybody saw as a man because her mutant power was 'appear as the most innocuous person possible in this situation').

As a side note, I pulled out my copy of Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. and saw what the game saw as important for a character. Name, role, stats, skills, augmentations, gear, some backstory bits, hair, ethnicity, clothing, appearance affectations, the languages you speak, but not your character's gender or sex. It makes some sense when you consider that these physical details are all things that could serve as gang identification, but it's still interesting considering the time the game was released.

Yeah. While I certainly know what my character's figure looks like, I have never written down anything that specific, and in my experience the only players who ever have are adult women.

Also the only players I've actually seen playing sex-focused high-Charisma sorceresses and bards have been adult women.

I'm actually going to start writing it down more, but that's because I'm also already to begin writing fairly detailed outfits on my sheets.

[DwarfFighter]

I don't have much to add to this debate other than making the observation that playing an Elf - an entirely distinct species of humanoid - must surely be more "alien" than playing a trans-gender character.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen{Scrubbed}.

-DF

[BisectedBrioche]

All I have to say is:

• Every character I've ever played is trans until confirmed cis (this extends to non-D&D fictional characters).
• It takes 0 effort for the DM to agree that my character can be trans.
• I appreciate RPGs that go out of their way to include trans characters in the lore (c.f. Pathfinder), but I've never had a problem including a trans character in a game where the players weren't transphobic.

One thing I'll bring up is when I mentioned that I was going to be playing a trans woman in a game, a friend asked me why I'd want to, when I could just be playing a cis girl. It took me a while to even work out this was a question, but, the tl;dr would be; Why wouldn't I want to make a character like me in some respects?

[Scots Dragon]

All I have to say is:

• Every character I've ever played is trans until confirmed cis (this extends to non-D&D fictional characters).
• It takes 0 effort for the DM to agree that my character can be trans.
• I appreciate RPGs that go out of their way to include trans characters in the lore (c.f. Pathfinder), but I've never had a problem including a trans character in a game where the players weren't transphobic.

One thing I'll bring up is when I mentioned that I was going to be playing a trans woman in a game, a friend asked me why I'd want to, when I could just be playing a cis girl. It took me a while to even work out this was a question, but, the tl;dr would be; Why wouldn't I want to make a character like me in some respects?

This forum needs a like function.

[Cluedrew]

I don’t think a blank box works. Information is much easier to find and retain on a form. Plus, I don't think many players would fill it out without a prompt, let alone read anyone else’s, and I want a system that encourages players to at least put a minimum of thought into purely cosmetic character details.

The box itself is a prompt through. I mean you can just leave some blank space on a page or label it something like notes. But honestly I don't write down gender and such things because usually people can figure it out when I say my character's name is Ammanda or Greg. OK maybe if its an elf named Falytra it could be hard to tell, but I usually play humans because I usually play in human focused settings.

But back to the boxes. Or at the extreme empty lines. What is entered is free form but you have prompts for what should be filled in. Instead of "description" have two boxes, "appearance" and "personality" and that sort of thing.

One thing I'll bring up is when I mentioned that I was going to be playing a trans woman in a game, a friend asked me why I'd want to, when I could just be playing a cis girl. It took me a while to even work out this was a question, but, the tl;dr would be; Why wouldn't I want to make a character like me in some respects?

For me there is this element of "Why not?" People ask why did you make this character [something] like it takes more energy. I mean telling a story about being [something] could take a lot of energy if it is a major focus but telling any story well can take a lot of energy. And as a background detail its not that hard. I spent over a year knowing a friend of mine was queer (LGBT+) but not knowing what type of queer because they just said someone else was also queer and beyond that it never came up. Even when it did it was just because they told me, not because it was obvious from the situation.

And hi from Hero Oh Hero.

[Anonymouswizard]

One thing I'll bring up is when I mentioned that I was going to be playing a trans woman in a game, a friend asked me why I'd want to, when I could just be playing a cis girl. It took me a while to even work out this was a question, but, the tl;dr would be; Why wouldn't I want to make a character like me in some respects?

So much wanting to smash like.



I once played in a game where a character didn't reveal their sex until the penultimate session. They presented androgynously for most of the game, were referred to by a male name because they hadn't come to the initial meeting with a prepared pseudonym, and my character literally failed a roll to recognise them all prettied up. I'm not sure the character even had a gender identity, they just liked looking pretty occasionally.

I've also played both quietly and openly agender characters, including at least one AI. Because who needs gender when you can print out a new body with a week's notice (M&M, I had the Immortality power that brought me back within the week, and explicitly printed new bodies every time I spent PP). Although never established in the game the bodies began big, bulky, and masculine (because my precious character had built that body) and became sleeker and more androgynous as time went on.

To be fair that character could also had a police siren that popped out of their head when running to the scene of a crime. God I loved playing Autocop.

[Talakeal]

I once played in a game where a character didn't reveal their sex until the penultimate session. They presented androgynously for most of the game, were referred to by a male name because they hadn't come to the initial meeting with a prepared pseudonym, and my character literally failed a roll to recognise them all prettied up. I'm not sure the character even had a gender identity, they just liked looking pretty occasionally.

I've also played both quietly and openly agender characters, including at least one AI. Because who needs gender when you can print out a new body with a week's notice (M&M, I had the Immortality power that brought me back within the week, and explicitly printed new bodies every time I spent PP). Although never established in the game the bodies began big, bulky, and masculine (because my precious character had built that body) and became sleeker and more androgynous as time went on.

To be fair that character could also had a police siren that popped out of their head when running to the scene of a crime. God I loved playing Autocop.

Man, English sucks.

To clarify, are you talking about gender or biological sex?

Because yeah, characters like robots without a sex are one thing; but most people who present as non binary still have an apparent physical sex, and even if they don't if you are traveling and adventuring with for years on end are going to, eventually, see you with your trousers off.

The box itself is a prompt through. I mean you can just leave some blank space on a page or label it something like notes. But honestly I don't write down gender and such things because usually people can figure it out when I say my character's name is Ammanda or Greg. OK maybe if its an elf named Falytra it could be hard to tell, but I usually play humans because I usually play in human focused settings.

But back to the boxes. Or at the extreme empty lines. What is entered is free form but you have prompts for what should be filled in. Instead of "description" have two boxes, "appearance" and "personality" and that sort of thing.

For me there is this element of "Why not?" People ask why did you make this character [something] like it takes more energy. I mean telling a story about being [something] could take a lot of energy if it is a major focus but telling any story well can take a lot of energy. And as a background detail its not that hard. I spent over a year knowing a friend of mine was queer (LGBT+) but not knowing what type of queer because they just said someone else was also queer and beyond that it never came up. Even when it did it was just because they told me, not because it was obvious from the situation.

And hi from Hero Oh Hero.

For me, a form is the simplest way to find information and to remember to include things.

For the record, character sheets in my system have both specific entries to fill and a blank box to fill in what you think is important, but given a choice between the two I much prefer the former.

And yeah, coming up with a character takes energy. I want people to invest energy in their characters.


For the record, I am not talking about check boxes; that is way too restrictive and clutters up the sheet. I am talking about blanks you can fill with a specific prompt.

All I have to say is:

• Every character I've ever played is trans until confirmed cis (this extends to non-D&D fictional characters).
• It takes 0 effort for the DM to agree that my character can be trans.
• I appreciate RPGs that go out of their way to include trans characters in the lore (c.f. Pathfinder), but I've never had a problem including a trans character in a game where the players weren't transphobic.

One thing I'll bring up is when I mentioned that I was going to be playing a trans woman in a game, a friend asked me why I'd want to, when I could just be playing a cis girl. It took me a while to even work out this was a question, but, the tl;dr would be; Why wouldn't I want to make a character like me in some respects?

A DM who won't let someone be trans is a real jerk.

I really want to include trans characters in my setting, but I just can't think of a way to do it naturally. My setting is one where traditional gender roles never really existed, and one can change biological sex through alchemical means, so I don't think you would see many of the same kind of trans people as you do irl, and going out of my way to point out ithat they were assigned a different gender at birth just in an NPC's write-up screams of othering and tokenism to me.

For me, personally, the fantasy overcomes the need to identify with the character. I get enough dysphoria in real life, for me gaming is an opportunity to relax and not worry about wanting to be a woman, and just be a woman.

And I've played maybe one where it actually mattered. And that was for an NPC and a GM making a point about institutional sexism (a businesswoman who everybody saw as a man because her mutant power was 'appear as the most innocuous person possible in this situation').

Again, are we talking about gender, biological sex, or sexuality?

I have played both trans and cis characters, and have played both gay and straight characters, and I have played male, female, and androgynous characters*, and all of them have histories and personalities that are influenced by it.

The thing is, for me the game is as much about why my character is in the dungeon as it is the dungeon itself, and usually there is some measure of familial motivation for that, and familial bonds are all about sex and sexuality.

And that's in games like D&D, in more RP heavy games, it plays a bigger role. For example, the character I have played the most in Mage is ostensibly asexual, but is obviously in love with her best friend. This has a huge impact on how I RP that character and the plot's she is involved in.

*Although as I am understanding my RL gender identity better I play more and more gay ciswomen as I don't like dealing with the stress of being closeted in game.

What is alignment? Are you supposed to update that everytime you change your position? (honestly alignment only worked in oD&D, BD&D, and 4e)

Yeah, alignment is pretty dumb. I mostly ignore it, but it is necessary for a few spells and effects. Other games have better systems like allegiances or humanity, but players still tend to ignore it more often than not.

[BisectedBrioche]

"Biological sex" is more complicated than a distinction from gender. Gender identity is, in fact, a sex marker. Three of the other markers can be changed (hormones, secondary sexual characteristics and genitals).

Trying to define a nonbinary person by their Assigned Gender At Birth (AGAB) is incredibly rude, and deserves no justification in my book (besides, in my experience you can't tell what someone has, or had, in their pants unless they tell you; and that's not a common situation).

[Bohandas]

"Biological sex" is more complicated than a distinction from gender. Gender identity is, in fact, a sex marker. Three of the other markers can be changed (hormones, secondary sexual characteristics and genitals).

Biological sex is defined by gamete production.

From a strict scientific standpoint even genetics doesn't define it, as in nature we see species with things like Sequential hermaphroditism and Temperature dependent sex determination

[Talakeal]

"Biological sex" is more complicated than a distinction from gender. Gender identity is, in fact, a sex marker. Three of the other markers can be changed (hormones, secondary sexual characteristics and genitals).

Trying to define a nonbinary person by their Assigned Gender At Birth (AGAB) is incredibly rude, and deserves no justification in my book (besides, in my experience you can't tell what someone has, or had, in their pants unless they tell you; and that's not a common situation).

I don’t think I agree with you, but I really don’t want to argue about such a sensitive topic, especially not here.

I don’t want to be rude to anyone. How would you suggest describing a nonbinary character to players? What if they ask for clarification?

[Anonymouswizard]

"Biological sex" is more complicated than a distinction from gender. Gender identity is, in fact, a sex marker. Three of the other markers can be changed (hormones, secondary sexual characteristics and genitals).

Trying to define a nonbinary person by their Assigned Gender At Birth (AGAB) is incredibly rude, and deserves no justification in my book (besides, in my experience you can't tell what someone has, or had, in their pants unless they tell you; and that's not a common situation).

Considering that a change in hormones can have an affect on primary and secondary sexual characteristics (although my knowledge is technically second hand). It really isn't clear cut, even if you want to sit in the 'Anonymouswizard doesn't exist' camp.

One thing that's stuck in my mind since I seriously started thinking about gender identity stuff is the memory of an episode of House where at the end House misgenders a patient because he's just discovered that she has an intersex condition (not the commonly thought of 'ambiguous trouser contents' one). I didn't think much of it at the time, but it's stuck in my mind as an example of how people try to be prescriptive and binary with regards to 'biological sex',

Biological sex is defined by gamete production

Citation?

I don’t want to be rude to anyone. How would you suggest describing a nonbinary character to players? What if they ask for clarification?

Explain it? I mean, some of us have to do it in real life.

[BisectedBrioche]

I don’t think I agree with you, but I really don’t want to argue about such a sensitive topic, especially not here.

I don’t want to be rude to anyone. How would you suggest describing a nonbinary character to players? What if they ask for clarification?

Clarify that they are nonbinary.

[Theoboldi]

Explain it? I mean, some of us have to do it in real life.

I do believe Talakeal meant how you would describe the character physically, say when the players are first meeting them and have no idea about who they are.

Do correct me if I am wrong there, Talakeal.

[Talakeal]

Explain it? I mean, some of us have to do it in real life.

To clarify:

IRL my experience is that most nonbinary people look just like cis men and cis women, and I do not know that they are nonbinary until somebody tells me.

In a game, the GMs job is to describe the world to the players. How would you describe a scene which includes a non binary NPC without ever making reference to their biological sex?

[Anonymouswizard]

To clarify:

IRL my experience is that most nonbinary people look just like cis men and cis women, and I do not know that they are nonbinary until somebody tells me.

In a game, the GMs job is to describe the world to the players. How would you describe a scene which includes a non binary NPC without ever making reference to their biological sex?

Without using gendered words?

EDIT: to clarify, you could easily describe my RL look as 'about five and a half feet tall, significantly overweight, with glasses and shoulder length slightly curly brown hair', at least once I pick up a new razor.

[Bohandas]

Citation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5031617/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7062084/

Now that I think of it, my initial definition was technically overbroad, as it could be construed to include gamete motility and mating type in addition to relative size.

EDIT:
Also I suppose it also depends on if you use "defines" te refer to a per-se definition, or colloquially to refer to a cause, as one of the articles also describes it as being 'defined' by genetics in the latter colloquial sense of being caused by them, although the per se definitions are given earlier in the article as such: "Mammals possess two sexes, defined in terms of the size of the gametes (sex cells) that they produce; males produce small, motile and numerous sperm while females produce large, sessile and well-provisioned eggs"

[BisectedBrioche]

To clarify:

IRL my experience is that most nonbinary people look just like cis men and cis women, and I do not know that they are nonbinary until somebody tells me.

In a game, the GMs job is to describe the world to the players. How would you describe a scene which includes a non binary NPC without ever making reference to their biological sex?

In my experience, a nonbinary person might look androgynous, they might look close to their AGAB, or they might not.

I don't want to speak over NB people, but as a trans woman, I know for a fact that people tend to be very bad at discerning someone's AGAB. Especially when they're confident they're an expert at it.

In any case, children's shows and video games haven't had much trouble introducing nonbinary characters, so I doubt a GM would.

[Scots Dragon]

In any case, children's shows and video games haven't had much trouble introducing nonbinary characters, so I doubt a GM would.

The obligatory chaotic neutral shapeshifting lizardfolk/yuan-ti rogue type would be pretty fun to play, honestly.

[Anonymouswizard]

In my experience, a nonbinary person might look androgynous, they might look close to their AGAB, or they might not.

I don't want to speak over NB people, but as a trans woman, I know for a fact that people tend to be very bad at discerning someone's AGAB. Especially when they're confident they're an expert at it.

I'm a NB person who presents as my AGAB, mainly because I haven't done serious clothes shopping in the last couple of years and it helps avoid the abuse. I keep meaning to add more accessories to my outfits, pick up some noticeable earrings and bangles and such as well as some more feminine clothes, but this year kind of got in the way. I really wish that I looked more androgynous, but sadly I didn't draw a genetic straw that made it easy.

[Scots Dragon]

I'm a NB person who presents as my AGAB, mainly because I haven't done serious clothes shopping in the last couple of years and it helps avoid the abuse. I keep meaning to add more accessories to my outfits, pick up some noticeable earrings and bangles and such as well as some more feminine clothes, but this year kind of got in the way. I really wish that I looked more androgynous, but sadly I didn't draw a genetic straw that made it easy.

I'm a trans girl and I feel that hard.

I got hit with the genetic straw of 'let's make you into a tall, broad-shouldered person who could be mistaken for wearing old Hollywood werewolf makeup'. Really cannot wait to start hormones.