Minionmancy without access to undead?

[AnonymousPepper]

So I'm in a 3-man gestalt game right now (a move we took after losing one of our core players), Strange Aeons AP, and I'm running into the biggest problem with gestalt games - the action economy just isn't there.

Ordinarily, I'd just take the easy way out and animate dead myself a bloody skeleton, but it's here we run into three major problems. First and foremost, the party comp is as follows:

NG Warpriest of Smiad // Contemplative Wilder (me)
LG Paladin // Skald
TN Bard // Swashbuckler

There's a paladin in the party, so that's a no there, and as a NG character getting spells directly from a LG patron, I cannot get [evil] spells from him either so lmao. The GM refuses to budge on this matter, regardless of how nonsensical the whole [evil] tag on those spells may be. I may be able to just get a scroll of it, but that costs extra money and doesn't get around the paladin pitching a fit or the next issues.

Additionally, anyone familiar with the path knows that the Church of Pharasma has a decent bit to do with the PCs, especially early on, and I don't want to get into it with them for obvious reasons.

And lastly, you'll note that we're a very buff-heavy party, between the Skald, the Bard, and I'll eventually be picking up Prophetic Song as well. Undead being immune to mind-affecting abilities cuts out a lot of what makes us capable.

My initial thought was to get a psionic construct (in the form of an Astral Construct done with Craft Psionic Construct as I've seen suggested multiple places around here and the internet in general, such as here), but it still runs into the issue of being mindless and thus not benefiting from any of our big buffs. It also isn't great as a ranged attacker, which is the role we're most in need of, largely by virtue of, again, being mindless and thus not having any feats (and its existing menu options are all melee related).

There's always Leadership, I guess, but that also consumes money like it's going out of style, in a party that absolutely does not have the spare feats to yoink the crafting feats to negate that problem, and frankly a cohort that's stuck two levels behind the party would be kinda ineffective in the sort of game we're running (not helped by my mediocre charisma, and I would have to be the one to take it because my particular warpriest archetype - we're running the lore-agnostic Arsenal Chaplain variant - has more feats to spare than anyone else). I'm leaning towards this, but I can't help but wonder if there's something better to be had.

Any other thoughts?

[aglondier]

Constructs are about the only kind of minion that isn't going to be completely outclassed and irrelevant five minutes after you build it in a game like you have described. Fortunately they are pretty versatile and can be made from anything. Build the first one as a giant walking holy symbol for the paladin and you will never hear another complaint from him...

[AnonymousPepper]

Constructs are about the only kind of minion that isn't going to be completely outclassed and irrelevant five minutes after you build it in a game like you have described. Fortunately they are pretty versatile and can be made from anything. Build the first one as a giant walking holy symbol for the paladin and you will never hear another complaint from him...

As much as I want to, though, how can I get them to benefit from the wide spectrum of definitely mind-affecting party buffs we've got? Awaken only works on animals and trees.

[aglondier]

Grow your golems from living trees

[AnonymousPepper]

Actually, there *is* the Animate Construct spell. It's... hideously expensive. My god.

Still doesn't allow it to benefit from mind-affecting effects, though, which is an enormous sticking point.

[aglondier]

Animate suits of full plate as golems that are directed by a warrior within the armour.

sorta like this

[Doctor Despair]

Mother Cyst [Feat] might be worth considering here. Necrotic Domination [Spell] and Necrotic Tumor [Spell] can get you a ton of minions. Use False Theurgy [Skill Trick] and Heighten Spell [Metamagic Feat] to disguise Necrotic Cyst [Spell] as something innocent, then dominate them later when no one is looking.

[Lapak]

Given that you're a Wilder, it's at least feasible that you could go Thrallherd. That would give you plenty of minions to benefit from all the buffs, and while it would cost you a manifester level it wouldn't cost you any money to have or replace them.

[Calthropstu]

Options:
Summon monster.
Summon nature's ally.
Charm/dominate.
Kill the paladin and animate his corpse.
Diplomancer.
Animate objects.
Animate plants.
Go druid and make furry critters your allies.
Clone yourself many times over.
Planar binding.
Planar Ally.
Dominate the paladin and force him to fall becoming a blackguard.
Helm of opposite alignment the paladin.
Buy hirelings.
Buy slaves.
Buy pets.

[icefractal]

It's not as easily suited as if you were Charisma-based, but with ranks in Use Magic Device and a Cyclops Helm (one automatic '20' a day, pretty handy), and some buffs, you should be able to hit DC 38 by 5th level or so.

For example:
5 ranks + 3 class skill (Dangerously Curious trait, if necessary) + 3 stat* + 5 untyped (Visualization of the Mind) + [assist or masterwork tool or feat] = +18.
* Assuming at least 12 Int (Clever Wordplay) or Cha and casting the appropriate buff spell.

Now why is 38 important? Because that's the difficulty to cast a CL 13 scroll of Simulacrum. At 8775 gp for a half-strength copy of an up-to-26 HD creature (for example, a Solar qualifies), I think this beats any golem or other standard construct in terms of bang for the buck.


Now for an even stronger option along similar lines, if you take the Craft Construct feat you can create Trompe L'oiels for about the same price (500/HD, plus 1-8k depending on size). Unlike Simulacra, these are full strength near-copies (they're constructs though) and regenerate lich-style, plus you can stick them on playing cards for easy transportation.

[Jack_Simth]

Pathfinder-specific?

Heighten Spell, Communal Mount (possibly via UMD a Divine Page of Spell Knowledge), and Alter Summoned Monster. Combine them, and you get a Summon Monster spells of your highest available level, with 2 hours/CL to split up between up to six creatures.

[Psyren]

Any other thoughts?

Your gestalt includes a psionic class, you should neither have minion nor action economy problems. Are you allowed to use psionic powers from 3.5, or only the DSP ones?

[AnonymousPepper]

Your gestalt includes a psionic class, you should neither have minion nor action economy problems. Are you allowed to use psionic powers from 3.5, or only the DSP ones?

Only DSP. Which is probably a blessing for balance, all things considered. Not that it doesn't still have broken things, but by my understanding much of the nastiest cheese is gone and that which remains - in particular the fun stuff like Fission - is gated behind much higher levels than our 4-going-on-5 (which coincidentally is precisely the point where constructs come online, particularly that painting monstrosity mentioned above that I am well aware of - but it's immune to mind-affecting, which denies it a lot of what's making us busted).

The problem we're continually running into is that our actions themselves are strong, and just keep getting stronger, but we just don't have the number of actions to leverage that as well as we would like to. Which, of course, is the typical Gestalt Experience^TM, I know, but hey. For the time being I've been mitigating by going full cleave, but that doesn't stay great forever.

[Jack_Simth]

Only DSP. Which is probably a blessing for balance, all things considered. Not that it doesn't still have broken things, but by my understanding much of the nastiest cheese is gone and that which remains - in particular the fun stuff like Fission - is gated behind much higher levels than our 4-going-on-5 (which coincidentally is precisely the point where constructs come online, particularly that painting monstrosity mentioned above that I am well aware of - but it's immune to mind-affecting, which denies it a lot of what's making us busted).

The problem we're continually running into is that our actions themselves are strong, and just keep getting stronger, but we just don't have the number of actions to leverage that as well as we would like to. Which, of course, is the typical Gestalt Experience^TM, I know, but hey. For the time being I've been mitigating by going full cleave, but that doesn't stay great forever.

There's a fair number of buffs that aren't mind affecting. Setting that aside, though:
1) The Tromp L'oeil doesn't have the caster level as part of the requirements. Among other things, this means that - if you can afford it and make the Spellcraft check - you can make them of things that have a higher CR than you do. Dragons & outsiders are quite good for that.
2) Just because something is immune to mind-affected effects doesn't mean it can't accept mind-affecting buffs. See Saving Throws:

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw

A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

(Emphasis added)

That's the same wording as in 3.5, and the 3.5 PHB had an example of an elf accepting a sleep spell. Note that lowering SR has a separate rule.

[Psyren]

Only DSP. Which is probably a blessing for balance, all things considered. Not that it doesn't still have broken things, but by my understanding much of the nastiest cheese is gone and that which remains - in particular the fun stuff like Fission - is gated behind much higher levels than our 4-going-on-5 (which coincidentally is precisely the point where constructs come online, particularly that painting monstrosity mentioned above that I am well aware of - but it's immune to mind-affecting, which denies it a lot of what's making us busted).

The problem we're continually running into is that our actions themselves are strong, and just keep getting stronger, but we just don't have the number of actions to leverage that as well as we would like to. Which, of course, is the typical Gestalt Experience^TM, I know, but hey. For the time being I've been mitigating by going full cleave, but that doesn't stay great forever.

Even without things like Anticipatory Strike and Synchronicity, you've got plenty. Schism, Temporal Acceleration, Hustle, Hustle Power, Psicrystal Containment, etc. You have a lot of ways to get the most out of your action economy using your psionic half.

And since you're only using DSP rules for psionics, that means you can make multiple astral constructs, which solves your minionmancy problem - particularly since you can wild surge them out for more menu choices, and buff them further with feats like Boost Construct.