Why the desire for low magic?

[Berenger]

Ultimately, the fantasy genre in general is one about magic: Magic locations, magic items, magic creatures, magic spells, and magic situations. Magic is what separates fantasy from other genres like historical fiction, even though other genres may have analogs (superpowers, psionics, etc.)

Magic is a major component of the fantasy genre, but it is not the only component. Fantasy has dragons, witches and dwarves, but it also has knights, castles and sea voyages. If magic is too ubiquitous and powerful, you lose the knights, castles and sea voyages because they stop making sense and are made obsolete by scry-and-die war mages, planet-spanning force shields and commercial teleportation circles.

[H_H_F_F]

Others have explained it very well already - making a world that both makes sense, and has the freedom to not be completely shaped by the implications of the rules. One small elements others have eluded to is magic items, and it really helps illustrate the point of the stories low magic lets you tell:

Magic items in low magic aren't about making a +1 sword feel cool, they're about making magic items feel like unique belongings, inherently connected to the story and the character.

In a typical high magic D&D game, you go on an adventure, find gold and stuff, sell that stuff for more gold, and buy recommended items with your gold. In a low magic setting, you've found the Stagraha, The Flaming Sword of Kadash. You'd never think of selling Stagraha. It's your sword, you've found it in the tomb of Aggadir-Tesh. There is no temptation to sell it for a +1 sword and a +2 vest of resistance, because that option doesn't exist; no one in your city knows the ancient secrets of creating such artifacts.

You want a cloak of resistance? You're going to need to gain the favour of the crazy old mage, Sophia Stargazer. She wants you to retrieve a mysterious crown from the home of the merchant Glazer. His house is protected from all magic, and she doesn't have the mundane capability to creep in herself. She swears it's just a mundane old crown that has been stolen from her, with sentimental value - but she gets this weird, hungry look in her eyes...

You get the point. If you want to tell stories that feel like a fantasy book more than they do like ground-breaking sci fi, and you want your world to make sense, low magic is a great tool. It's not impossible to do in high magic, but it's MUCH harder, and way more convoluted.

[AntiAuthority]

In my experience, the reasons for wanting low magic over high magic is because of...

1) Worldbuilding. Why is this a medieval society when technology should be built around magic? Why is this setting like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings and such, as opposed to being more magitech? I'm not too bothered by the world building conflicts myself, but others are.

2) It limits the types of stories that can be told. For example, you want to figure out who the killer was? Just go chat up the person's ghost with a spell or something. Your castle is about to be overrun by enemy forces? Just summon a bunch of monsters to come chomp on them... Or teleport out of there... Or just fly away... Or just go to another dimension.

3) This is tied to 2, but deserves to be its own thing. When people who want to play 3E with magic, they tend to think D&D is going to be like Witcher and the like... Which it can pass itself off as at lower levels, but as the potency of magic goes up, it goes from something like Witcher to something approximating the magic users in Marvel/DC.

[Melcar]

In my experience, the reasons for wanting low magic over high magic is because of...

1) Worldbuilding. Why is this a medieval society when technology should be built around magic? Why is this setting like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings and such, as opposed to being more magitech? I'm not too bothered by the world building conflicts myself, but others are.

2) It limits the types of stories that can be told. For example, you want to figure out who the killer was? Just go chat up the person's ghost with a spell or something. Your castle is about to be overrun by enemy forces? Just summon a bunch of monsters to come chomp on them... Or teleport out of there... Or just fly away... Or just go to another dimension.

3) This is tied to 2, but deserves to be its own thing. When people who want to play 3E with magic, they tend to think D&D is going to be like Witcher and the like... Which it can pass itself off as at lower levels, but as the potency of magic goes up, it goes from something like Witcher to something approximating the magic users in Marvel/DC.

While I generally agree with your points I feel like people forget a few thing. One thing is that there are quite few high level characters, which is why magic is not omnipresent. Like, fearun has about 70 mil, 10% are level 1 adventures, 50% of that are level 2, 50% of that are level 3.... etc, basically leaving you with 13 level 20 characters... and not all of them are necessarily a spellcaster...

Secondly, its not only friendly characters who are these levels, they are total, ergo, there are possible just a handful of good aligned meaning that even though magic solves everything, its not readily available and evil will be there to spoil what ever the good guys are doing... So I don't thing everything inflated beyond LotR/witcher etc... at least not as a rule!

So remember, that there are only 13 level 20 characters in faerun, not all of them are spellcasters... and not all of them are good...

[AntiAuthority]

While I generally agree with your points I feel like people forget a few thing. One thing is that there are quite few high level characters, which is why magic is not omnipresent. Like, fearun has about 70 mil, 10% are level 1 adventures, 50% of that are level 2, 50% of that are level 3.... etc, basically leaving you with 13 level 20 characters... and not all of them are necessarily a spellcaster...

Secondly, its not only friendly characters who are these levels, they are total, ergo, there are possible just a handful of good aligned meaning that even though magic solves everything, its not readily available and evil will be there to spoil what ever the good guys are doing... So I don't thing everything inflated beyond LotR/witcher etc... at least not as a rule!

So remember, that there are only 13 level 20 characters in faerun, not all of them are spellcasters... and not all of them are good...

This is a fair point, as there's not really much reason to think most characters would even survive to get to that point. I'm not the greatest at calculations, but I have a question. Would number of mid-level and up spellcasters be numerous enough to affect the technology level of that world? Or would the numbers for them be so small that's still unlikely?

[Tiktakkat]

Why Low Magic?

Because the character did it, not the funky toys.
And the story is "supposed" to be about the characters, and not the funky toys.
Including who buys the most toys or the right toys.
On the worldbuilding side, if I wanted to play Shadowrun/Traveller/Champions, I would be playing them, not D&D.

Why High Magic?

Because look at all the funky things I can do with all the funky toys!
Also, why have the funky toys in the rules if we are not supposed to use them?
Especially, why let the bad guys have the funky toys if the characters are prohibited from having them?
For worldbuilding, there is nothing heroic about dying of the plague or watching your kingdom starve after a bad harvest.

[Asmotherion]

I can think of plenty of fantasy stories which have no supernatural elements at all, they are still fantasy. In my experience, most stories rely upon a single “weird thing” to drive the plot and then keep the rest of it as grounded as possible within the setting to to keep the audience grounded and to stop them from getting lost and being unable to visualize or identify with the action.

And no, this is most fantasy, not just LoTR and Conan.


Also, as others have pointed out, magic is supposed to be mysterious and weird. If it is too ubiquitous, predictable, and convenient , it isn't really magic, it is just technology with a different aesthetic.


Take the Diablo example brought up in the OP. Magic items are everywhere, but nothing is magical about it. It is just passive stat boosts, and the game would be no different if instead of labelling them as magical, the stat boosts were the result of the items mundane properties like condition, material, and crafdtmanship.

I agree to some extend, but I disagree with removing magic entirelly as a player option, or the need for it to create the mystery atmosphere you describe.

Take the Witcher Setting for example. Magic is plenty creepy and weird, and even Mages who dedicate their seemingly unlimited immortal life, only scratch the surface of it's mystery. So, we still have the "magic as alternate technology" to some extend; This is the magic the player and civilised humanoids have access to, as it is predictable and we know it's rules. But at the same time we also have eldritch things like the Crones whose magic is meant to remain a mystery to the player, and whose spells are not as easy to break as "I dispell the curse" even by plenty proficient mages.

Finally, I disagree with the "this is most fantasy" part. The most usual fantasy trope is that were the protagonist either has some limited access to magic, is a mage apprentice who slowly becomes more proficient, or is a full-fleged mage in a quest; This may not be the strongest mage, or his abilities may only partially depend on magic (see gish or sword mage), but it is very rare in fantasy to focus on a protagonist with no access to magic.

Why Low Magic?

Because the character did it, not the funky toys.
And the story is "supposed" to be about the characters, and not the funky toys.
Including who buys the most toys or the right toys.
On the worldbuilding side, if I wanted to play Shadowrun/Traveller/Champions, I would be playing them, not D&D.

Why High Magic?

Because look at all the funky things I can do with all the funky toys!
Also, why have the funky toys in the rules if we are not supposed to use them?
Especially, why let the bad guys have the funky toys if the characters are prohibited from having them?
For worldbuilding, there is nothing heroic about dying of the plague or watching your kingdom starve after a bad harvest.

Magic is as much responsible for defeating the BBEG, as the crossbow or sword is. The hero is the one wielding the weapon. Unless your arguement is that the only hero is someone who wins using nothing but his own two fists, I don't see how magic is more a funky toy than a crossbow. It's just a lore fluff that gives your "weapons" and "tools" a more fantasy twist.

[AvatarVecna]

While I generally agree with your points I feel like people forget a few thing. One thing is that there are quite few high level characters, which is why magic is not omnipresent. Like, fearun has about 70 mil, 10% are level 1 adventures, 50% of that are level 2, 50% of that are level 3.... etc, basically leaving you with 13 level 20 characters... and not all of them are necessarily a spellcaster...

Secondly, its not only friendly characters who are these levels, they are total, ergo, there are possible just a handful of good aligned meaning that even though magic solves everything, its not readily available and evil will be there to spoil what ever the good guys are doing... So I don't thing everything inflated beyond LotR/witcher etc... at least not as a rule!

So remember, that there are only 13 level 20 characters in faerun, not all of them are spellcasters... and not all of them are good...

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from. Can I get some quotes?

(I don't mean to sound dismissive, like I'm trying to call out your argument. I mean, I kinda would like to, but I want to be more fully informed if I do?)

[Endarire]

@Tiktakkat
Thank you for summarizing the high/low magic situation so efficiently! Alleluia!

[ShurikVch]

The other possible reasons for low magic:

In some places, magic isn't that strong to begin with: such as near the Spire of Outlands, or in Westeros.
Primary casters suffering major power loss in such cases
Thus, low magic (/no magic) became more attractive in such cases

In some places, mages just aren't welcomed
Say, in the Dark Sun, you start to say a spell's verbal component - and, suddenly, somebody stabs you while screaming "Die, you foul defiler!.."
In the Midnight campaign setting, "The Laws of the Shadow" punishing those who wield magic (or have a magic item) by death, and those who're enforcing that law are employing assistance of creatures which are able to detect and track magic literally for miles

[Melcar]

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from. Can I get some quotes?

(I don't mean to sound dismissive, like I'm trying to call out your argument. I mean, I kinda would like to, but I want to be more fully informed if I do?)

I have it from Candlekeep: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15659

[Quertus]

I have it from Candlekeep: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15659

Oh dear gods of Math that hurt my head.

OK, let's pretend that the poster was otherwise correct (because I don't want to think), just made a silly typo or two.

If the odds of getting a 9+ on a 3d6 roll is 160/216, then the odds of getting *at least* one 9+ on one of 4 stats is 1-(the odds of getting 8- on all 4 stats). Or 1-((56/216)^4). The odds of being that pathetic are 0.0045179, or less than a half a percent. So 99.5% of the humanoids of Faerun (before taking into account racial stat modifiers, which my instincts tell me would slightly increase the odds for nonhumans) are eligible for PC classes, not the 70% that was listed.

Then, for the "proper adventurer" definition of "at least one of the 4 prime requisite stats at 12+, con 10+, no stat below 8"? Again, assuming that they got the fractions for 3d6 distribution right, it's ((81/216)x(135/216)x((181/216)^4))x4, or 46.2% of the population should have adventurer-worthy stats? Nah, I think that my math is kinda sus, too. Any of the 4 stats could be the one that is 12+, but ((98/10)^4)x(99/100)x4 > 1.

Dang it. It's not as easy as *either* of us wanted it to be.

Then the "half proceed to the next level" seems to come out of nowhere, and *should* produce a metric of 1/524,288 of 1st level characters reaching 20th level. So, out of a population of 65,000,000, of which somewhere between 11%-46% are eligible for the arbitrary "property adventurer" status, yields 13-58 level 20+ characters in Faerun, and twice that number for each level below (so 104-464 17th level characters, and 192-870 characters level 17+, able to cast 9th level spells (if full casters)).

[Melcar]

Oh dear gods of Math that hurt my head.

OK, let's pretend that the poster was otherwise correct (because I don't want to think), just made a silly typo or two.

If the odds of getting a 9+ on a 3d6 roll is 160/216, then the odds of getting *at least* one 9+ on one of 4 stats is 1-(the odds of getting 8- on all 4 stats). Or 1-((56/216)^4). The odds of being that pathetic are 0.0045179, or less than a half a percent. So 99.5% of the humanoids of Faerun (before taking into account racial stat modifiers, which my instincts tell me would slightly increase the odds for nonhumans) are eligible for PC classes, not the 70% that was listed.

Then, for the "proper adventurer" definition of "at least one of the 4 prime requisite stats at 12+, con 10+, no stat below 8"? Again, assuming that they got the fractions for 3d6 distribution right, it's ((81/216)x(135/216)x((181/216)^4))x4, or 46.2% of the population should have adventurer-worthy stats? Nah, I think that my math is kinda sus, too. Any of the 4 stats could be the one that is 12+, but ((98/10)^4)x(99/100)x4 > 1.

Dang it. It's not as easy as *either* of us wanted it to be.

Then the "half proceed to the next level" seems to come out of nowhere, and *should* produce a metric of 1/524,288 of 1st level characters reaching 20th level. So, out of a population of 65,000,000, of which somewhere between 11%-46% are eligible for the arbitrary "property adventurer" status, yields 13-58 level 20+ characters in Faerun, and twice that number for each level below (so 104-464 17th level characters, and 192-870 characters level 17+, able to cast 9th level spells (if full casters)).

I donkt know the math, but here's a link: https://www.indeed.com/career-advice...te-probability

But, its not a lot of high level casters... so one really have to ask whether its enough to change/evolve a fantasy setting into some crazy tippyverse/marvel universe...

[Mechalich]

It's important to note that, even at very low optimization levels like those found in the FR official materials, high level casters never actually die. This skews the numbers upwards considerably from any base demographic estimate because as time passes the population of such casters basically only goes up. Elminster, to use the most obvious example, was born in 212 DR for a setting that begins operation after 1300 DR, and he's by no means the oldest character active in the setting, as beings such as Larloch and Srinshee are working on their third millennium.

This, not incidentally, is one of the reasons to push for low magic, otherwise any D&D setting rapidly fills up with immortal wizard-kings, and it removes basically all the operating room for running adventures of any reasonable meaning unless you consistently hand these individuals the idiot ball.

[Melcar]

It's important to note that, even at very low optimization levels like those found in the FR official materials, high level casters never actually die. This skews the numbers upwards considerably from any base demographic estimate because as time passes the population of such casters basically only goes up. Elminster, to use the most obvious example, was born in 212 DR for a setting that begins operation after 1300 DR, and he's by no means the oldest character active in the setting, as beings such as Larloch and Srinshee are working on their third millennium.

This, not incidentally, is one of the reasons to push for low magic, otherwise any D&D setting rapidly fills up with immortal wizard-kings, and it removes basically all the operating room for running adventures of any reasonable meaning unless you consistently hand these individuals the idiot ball.

Rapidly fills up? Of 68.000.000 inhabitants there are the following level 20+:

41 Ioulaum (LN elder brain lich Wiz31/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 Qysar Shoon VII (NE male human demilich Necromancer31/Acm5) (p121 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 The Skulls (CN advanced flameskull Sor26/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p111 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
35 Telamont Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz20/Acm5/Sha10) (p82 Lords of Darkness)
33 Rhangaun (NE male human lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic8) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
32 Larloch (LE Male Human lich Wiz20/Epic12) (p161 Lords of Darkness)
32 Aumvor the Undying (CE augmented elite Netherese human lich Necromancer (15/Acm5/Epic7/NethereseArcanist5) (p127 Champions of Ruin)
32 The Simbul (CN female human Sor20/Acm2/Wiz10) (p112 Unapproachable East)
31 The Keeper of Thaal (NE male human demilich Wiz31) (p179 Underdark)
31 Kartak Spellseer (CE male augmented human lich Nec20/Acm5/Epic6) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
30 Arthindol (N male sarrukh lich Wiz25/Acm5) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)
30 High Lord Planner Illis Khendarhine (LN male deep Imaskari Sor4/Wiz20/Acm6) (p138 Underdark)
30 Lady Saharel (CG female Netherese human ghost Wiz20/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p90 Anauroch: The Empire of Shade)
30 Halaster Blackcloak (male human Wiz25/Acm5) (p6 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
29 Elminster (CG male human Chosen of Mystra Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4)(p7 FRCS)
29 Szass Tam (NE male lich Necromancer10/RedWizard10/Acm2/Epic7) (p169 Unapproachable East)
29 Lord Apprehender Ebrul Naramixna (N male deep Imaskari Sor10/Wiz15/Acm4) (p138 Underdark)
29 Zalathorm Kirkson (LN male human Diviner20/Loremaster4/Halruaan Elder5) (p133 Shining South)
29 Rhaugilath the Ageless (LG male human archlich Wiz22/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist2) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)
28 Wulgreth of Ascalhorn (LE male human lich Wiz20/Acm3/Netherese Arcanist5) (p111 Lost Empires of Faerun)
27 Shradin Mulphor (NE nishruu [augmented male human] Necromancer22/Acm5) (p110 (p109 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
27 Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (LN male human Chosen of Mystra Wiz24/Acm3) (p24 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
27 Shangalar the Black (LE male tiefling lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic2) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
27 Priamon "Frostrune" Rakesk (CE male human lich Wiz20/Acm4/Epic3) (p178 Lords of Darkness) ###DECEASED###
26/11 Danchilaer the Mad Mage (LN male Halruaan human Wiz21/Sor6/Acm5) (Dapplegate) [http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...rbk/20060628a]
26 Ardanthe (LN female human Wiz24/Acm2) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight) [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041124a]
26 Belaurant (CN male human Wiz25/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
26 Mardamaun (LN male human Wiz25/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
26 Brennus Tanthul (NE male shade Diviner12/Loremaster8/ShadowAdept6) (p61 Power of Faerun)
26 Lamorak Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz19/Sha7) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
25 Meleghost Zoaster (CN male human Illusionist20/Acm5) (p116 Serpent Kingdoms)
25 Ygnaroth the Necroseer (CE phaerimm Sor25) (p166 Underdark)
25 Daurgothoth (CE male great wyrm black dracolich Wiz20/Acm5) (p42 Dragons of Faerun)
25 Malchor Harpell (NG male Illuskan human Wiz20/Acm5) (p76 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
25 Mattick Tanthul (LE male shade Illusionis16/Sha9) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
25 Vattick Tanthul (LE male shade Illusionis16/Sha9) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
25 Manshoon (LE male human Wiz20/Acm5) (p156 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
25 Izazrem Thal (LN male Rashemi human Wiz16/RedWizard9) (p145 Power of Faerun)
24 Alustriel (CG female human Chosen of Mystra Wiz20/Sor2/Acm2) (p54 Silver Marches)24 Marune the Masked (NE male Tethyrian human Necromancer5/ShadowAdept14/Acm5) (p68 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Nevron (NE male human Cjr10/Red10/Acm2/Epic2) (p278 FRCS)
24 Phaeldara (CN female human Sor16/Wiz8) (p111 Unapproachable East)
24 Telbran Nelarn (CN male Netherese human Sor24) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Pharos (N male moon elf baelnorn Wiz24) (p124 Lost Empires of Faerun)
24 Keiler Twistbeard (CE male Chondathan Wiz20/Planeshifter4) (p115 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Druxus Rhym (NE male human Tra10/Red10/Acm4) (p278 FRCS)
24 Immirton "Redcloak" Loaden (NG male Tashalar human Wiz14/Master Transmogrifist10 [formerly a LG transmuter]; Str 17, Int 18, Wis 17)
23 Tabra (NG female human Wiz18/Acm5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
23 Dethud Tanthul (LE male shade Nec15/Sha8) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
23 Laeral Silverhand (CG female human Wiz19/Sor4/Rgr7) (p280 FRCS)
23 Aznar Thrul (CE male Mulan human Evoker10/RedWizard10/Acm3) (p24 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
23 Phourkyn One-Eye (NG male human Wiz20/Acm3) (p161 FRCS)
23 Skouloun (CN male human Wiz22/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
23 Ilcanorr of Luthcheq (NE male Turami human Wiz20/Acm1/Epic2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060510a)
23 Shyressa (NE female human vampire Wiz20/Acm3) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
23 Gulgath (CN male human Wiz23) (p90 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
23 Maskar Wands (LN male Tethyrian human Wiz20/Acm3) (p63 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
###DECEASED###
23 Scalmarel the Sage (LE phaerimm Sor23) (p166 Underdark)
22 Nezram the World-Walker (LN male human Mulan Wiz22) (p80 Lost Empires of Faerun)
22 Ornar of the Claw (CE male human Wiz19/Acm3) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
22 Scsilda Starshield (LN female Cali****e human Sor19/ElementalSavant3 [lich of unique status: unturnable]) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20061122
22 Guldor Zauviir (NE male drow Wiz20/Acm2) (p175 Underdark)
22 Lauzoril (NE male human Enc10/Red10/Acm2) (p278 FRCS)
22 Sylune (NG female human spectral harpist Wiz20/Sor2/Ftr2) (p280 FRCS)
22 Yhelbruna (LN female human Clr6/Wiz12/Hatran10) (p147 Unapproachable East)
21/6 Yusendre (CG female human Wiz20/Sor6/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
21 Lallara (CE female human Abj10/Red10/Acm1) (p278 FRCS)
21 Deltagar Zelhund (LE male human Wiz18/Lor2/Acm1) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
21 Rhodea Firehair (NG female human Evoker18/Halruaan Elder3) (p134 Shining South) ###DECEASED###
20/3/1 Dyrr the Lichdrow (NE male drow lich Sor20/Wiz3/Clr1 of Velsharoon) (p161 Underdark)
20 Talatha Vaerovree of Innarlith (Female human Wiz17/Acm3) (p187 Magic of Faerun)
20 Malaggar Xarann (CE male drow Enchanter20) (p175 Underdark)
20 Srivven (NE male Mulan human Wiz18/Acm2) (Adaerglast, the Land of Mages)
20 Flammuldinath "Firefingers" Thuldoum (CG male human Wiz20) (p161 FRCS)
20 Antatlab of the Shaking Stones (LE male drow Wiz13/Elemental Savant7) (p175 Underdark)
20 Gromph Baenre (NE male drow Diviner 16/Acm4) (p161 Underdark)
20 Hadrhune (NE male shade Wiz10/Sha10) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
20 Jaluth "Snakeface" Alaerth (CE female human Wiz20) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
20 Slarkrethel (NE male kraken Sor20) (p74 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Thurndan Tallwand (CE male human Wiz20) (p90 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
20 Savengriff (LG male Illuskan human Wiz20) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Othur Roonsundyr (CN male human Wiz20) (p109 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Phindounma the Abominable (NE phaerimm Sor20) (p166 Underdark)
20 Mythrellaa (CE female human Ill10/Red7/Sha3) (p278 FRCS)
20 Durendair "Greenshadow" Hammask (NG male Illuskan human Wiz14/Horizon Walker4/MysticTheurge2; Str 17, Dex 16, Int 18, Wis 18)
20 Kappiyan Flurmastyr (NG male Tethyrian human Wiz7/MasterAlchemist10/Loremaster3) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Amaryth Delbara (CG female Illuskan human Sor14/Incantatrix6) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060705a)
20 Flyndara Rildar (CN female Tethyrian human Wiz14/Sor6)
20 Melegaunt Tanthul (LE male shade Div16/Sha4) (p83 Lords of Darkness) ###DECEASED###
20/8 The Farseer (LN male Tashlutan human Clr8 of Savras/Diviner10/MysticTheurge10) (p126 Serpent Kingdoms)
20 Zannaster (LE male Chondathan human Necromancer5/Wearer of Purple10/Acm5) (p55 Dragons of Faerun)
20 Alathene Moonstar (CG archlich [augmented Illuskan human] Wiz15/ArcaneDevotee5[Selune]) (p62 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)

Thats not really filling up... nor are all of these actively trying to change the world or dominate it!

[Tiktakkat]

Magic is as much responsible for defeating the BBEG, as the crossbow or sword is. The hero is the one wielding the weapon. Unless your arguement is that the only hero is someone who wins using nothing but his own two fists, I don't see how magic is more a funky toy than a crossbow. It's just a lore fluff that gives your "weapons" and "tools" a more fantasy twist.

You do not.
Some people do.
The people who, you know, prefer Low Magic.

So no, that is not my argument.
That is my observation on one of the the elements the Low Magic side prefers.
An element that can be found in fiction.
For that matter, so can the reverse! There was a comic of Phil and Dixie that addressed the "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology" corollary to Clarke's Law, with mention of the "lore fluff" element.

My argument is that both sides have valid points - that is why I posted both sides.
As for my preference, I am happy as long as both keep playing because that means there are more TTRPG players out there to keep the hobby going.



@Endarire
You are welcome.

[tiercel]

I feel compelled to point out that the Expedition to Undermountain adventure (technically written to be setting-agnostic, but yeah right) has, in the tavern atop the entrance to the dungeon, an 18th level fighter (hahahahahahahaha) barkeep and an 18th level wizard/splash of PrC hanging around in the bar randomly wasting his time mindreading lowlevel punks who blunder out of the dungeon.

This doesn’t take into consideration Halaster, the presumably epic level wizard who dies at the beginning of the adventure but manages to trouble, among any number of presumably higher-leveled but strangely ineffectual punks, an unleveled PC with a piece of his soul (because of course he does), or the living spell wish sorcerer 19 hanging around on the first level of the dungeon specifically to hand a ridiculously useful minor artifact to a PC.... because.

And this is for a adventure/campaign that theoretically starts at level 1.

Given the frequency with which high-level NPCs seem to appear in FR adventures generally, it seems likely that there are an awful lot of them (e.g. rather more than merely those specifically named in sourcebooks and adventures) and/or they have an uncanny knack to gravitating to anyplace with PCs without, you know, doing much of anything about the world-shaking problems right under their noses. (Including the literal, earth-shaking, apocalyptic, biggest-city-in-the-campaign-could-be-obliterated, yet strangely unspecified, threat of Expedition to Undermountain.)

[Mechalich]

Rapidly fills up? Of 68.000.000 inhabitants there are the following level 20+:

Thats not really filling up... nor are all of these actively trying to change the world or dominate it!

That's over 90 named characters, most of whom are Epic level! Considering that's named characters only and doesn't count any of the 17-19th level casters who also have access to 9th level spells, yeah, the world's pretty full. If those casters functioned at a 3.X level of power (they don't because they were written for 1e or 2e) then their numbers are more than sufficient to tear the world apart if even a fraction of them got out of their armchairs and down to business.

The existence of FR depends on authorial fiat such that none of the epic casters ever actually do anything, and the 3e FRCS outright admits this via Ed Greenwood's authorial insert.

[Bohandas]

I think there's no good way to make a stat-boosting item feel truly special. It's a mechanically useful thing but also very boring: a decanter of endless water or a bag of tricks are infinitely more fascinating than any +X item, even if the +X item ends up being more important.

I second this, and would add that the +1 weapon is probably the most boring of all, because it's so specific and so abstract. In contrast with, for example, a headband of intellect or a belt of giant strength. Those do things that are interesting both in and out of combat, you can lift things with the belt, carry them, throw them, and the headband, the headband helps you understand the world and solve problems, or you could put the headband on a dog and teach the dog to talk. Plus you can imagine them as something that would be useful in your own real life...whereas the +1 sword on the other hand, well, even if you're a soldier or something not even a magic sword is going to be better than a gun, not unless it's got a LOT more going on than being slightly more accurate.

[Silent Alarm]

This, not incidentally, is one of the reasons to push for low magic, otherwise any D&D setting rapidly fills up with immortal wizard-kings, and it removes basically all the operating room for running adventures of any reasonable meaning unless you consistently hand these individuals the idiot ball.

While it is never expressly stated, there is a valid reason why these heavy hitters and big shakers don't openly fight in the streets and that is the prospect of mutually assured annihilation. There is a very good reason why in the FR at least, most of the high level characters act as NPCs in the background moving and shaking the setting in the most subtle way possible and that is the very real possibility of through exposing themselves, they set themselves up for certain death. Spellduals in the FR are seldom (read as: never) like min-maxed level 20 Wizard duels in 3.5e because for the most part, the FR exists across 4 editions of D&D and operate on vastly different rules. If lore is to be followed, respected, or believed (around here it rarely is so whatever), we are talking about individuals capable of warping continents, draining oceans, and destroying planets if they ABSOLUTELY want something. In the end, most high level Wizards generally end up like Urza (from M:tG) in terms of how much damage they can do to the world if they were truly motivated to do something that would require them to do so. So that in mind, the most efficient means of handling business is to do so through subtle means with grand far reaching consequences.

For example, Larloch wants to take a book from Candlekeep, but he cannot as he knows they keep a sufficiently leveled diviner on staff to track for potential theft and if they know he is coming to get a book, there is a very high chance a potential rival will also know, want the same book, and move accordingly. So Larloch hatches a highly convoluted plan where he finds a person in a nothing town, and orders one of his Lich minions to get one of their minions to attack a random town and kidnap some people to turn them into zombies to create a zombie army. The village gets attacked and adventurers surely rise up to the occasion. The Heroes fight the monsters, they win, and amongst the treasure is a spellbook detailing some spells on necromancy and a cross reference to another book in Candlekeep (the same book that Larloch wants). Whether or not there is a spellcaster amongst the Adventurers, eventually the spellbook finds its way into the hands of an inquisitive Wizard, whom will no doubt try and take the book out from Candlekeep through legal means or otherwise. Eventually the book is taken out, and that is when Larloch's plan triggers. He now orders an entirely different minion from the first one, to order one of his minions to attack the person who took the book out, or to steal the book, or to create a duplicate of the book so no one is any the wiser that Larloch now has the book he wants, or rather Larloch's minion's minion has a copy of the book he wanted, and the book is duplicated several times, with one being sent to Larloch, and the other duplicates being sent with other spells written into them to cause other curious spellcasters to go digging for more information so for future plans Larloch can get more books.

And that is how an Epic Lich goes book shopping. Lichs, Immortal Wizards, Divine Champions. They are all equally afraid of one another because they know exactly what they can do to each other and therefore abide by the unwritten rule of not doing their activities (no matter how good, inane, mundane, and harmless) in the open or being as subtle as possible when trying to get the things they want. I believe the book Secrets of the Magister goes into depth as to describing how actually becoming the Magister essentially places a giant red target on your back because your job places you in the open by requirement, and for a while people could take your job by killing you (why anyone would want it varies from person to person ranging from more power to downright lunacy), but it is a massive weakness in a setting where Wizards regularly play nth dimensional chess to achieve even the most minute task.

I think there's no good way to make a stat-boosting item feel truly special. It's a mechanically useful thing but also very boring: a decanter of endless water or a bag of tricks are infinitely more fascinating than any +X item, even if the +X item ends up being more important.

That is a personal opinion and I partially agree? +1 weapons are very boring compared to +1 armor as they are simply doing anything besides adding a minute mechanical bonus to your character whereas a Headband of Intellect +2 makes it's wearer more intelligent, and a Belt of Giant's Strength +2 makes you almost as strong as a Dog. I used to think that it was because 3.5e essentially made magic items a commodity, but no. They are simply boring.

[Bohandas]

I believe the book Secrets of the Magister goes into depth as to describing how actually becoming the Magister essentially places a giant red target on your back because your job places you in the open by requirement, and for a while people could take your job by killing you (why anyone would want it varies from person to person ranging from more power to downright lunacy)

Sounds a little bit like the anime Afro Samurai (which, now that I think of it actually suggests a possible solution, they just need to find a way to pass the buck, similar to the way that the existence of the #2 Headband deflected the heat off of Justice, who was the one everyone actually wanted to challenge, and onto the Afro Samurai)

[Mechalich]

While it is never expressly stated, there is a valid reason why these heavy hitters and big shakers don't openly fight in the streets and that is the prospect of mutually assured annihilation. There is a very good reason why in the FR at least, most of the high level characters act as NPCs in the background moving and shaking the setting in the most subtle way possible and that is the very real possibility of through exposing themselves, they set themselves up for certain death. Spellduals in the FR are seldom (read as: never) like min-maxed level 20 Wizard duels in 3.5e because for the most part, the FR exists across 4 editions of D&D and operate on vastly different rules. If lore is to be followed, respected, or believed (around here it rarely is so whatever), we are talking about individuals capable of warping continents, draining oceans, and destroying planets if they ABSOLUTELY want something. In the end, most high level Wizards generally end up like Urza (from M:tG) in terms of how much damage they can do to the world if they were truly motivated to do something that would require them to do so. So that in mind, the most efficient means of handling business is to do so through subtle means with grand far reaching consequences.

Right, FR imposes authorial fiat in order to behave the way its author wants it to and not according to the way the game rules suggest it should operate (and in fairness to Ed Greenwood, FR only operates on D&D rules because he realized he could make considerably more money that way, it was never originally intended to be a D&D setting). That mostly works for FR, which also has the legacy of previous editions to use as a shield. Even given this, though, a consider portion of the population of the Realms lives either under the direct control of some kind of wizard-king/magocratic ruling council (or some other monstrous entity with 9th level spellcasting) or in a kingdom where the resident archwizard could easily take control but just doesn't because they think it would be too much work or something.

However, if you design a setting based in 3.X D&D from scratch you can't run around this problem in the same way that FR does.

[lylsyly]

despite the fact that it was his homebrewed D&D setting?

[Silent Alarm]

Sounds a little bit like the anime Afro Samurai (which, now that I think of it actually suggests a possible solution, they just need to find a way to pass the buck, similar to the way that the existence of the #2 Headband deflected the heat off of Justice, who was the one everyone actually wanted to challenge, and onto the Afro Samurai)

I am unfamiliar with Afro Samurai, however I will point out that one does not simply "cease" to become the Magister. Once you have it there are only two ways out:

1. You lose a spell duel to a superior spellcaster, who then becomes your successor. This was scrubbed after the Time of Trouble however.
2. Azuth and/or Mystra select you another individual as the Magister.

There is an alternative where you do retire and Azuth AND Mystra approve and allow you to exist as a magic item (or construct of magical making), reincarnated as a magical creature or a monster with some enhanced magical abilities (such as a beholder), or you exist as a Chosen of Azuth (which is arguably a fate worse than death). So yeah, you might be better off training a potential successor.

However, if you design a setting based in 3.X D&D from scratch you can't run around this problem in the same way that FR does.

I feel that you are either ignoring or missing the point of my statement so I'll simplify it: The reason why 3.x D&D Wizards do not run around picking fights with one another on an epic scale is because they do not wish to fight other equal (or greater) Wizards who are capable of the same degree of destruction that they are capable of. In Tippy's Point of Light campaign setting, this is essentially the case taken to it's most logical (or illogical if you ask me) extreme. You have high level Spellcasters (mostly Wizards) that rule magically protected cities that are connected via teleportation circles. There is no reason for conflict since their power is largely absolute, resources are bountiful, and most sources of adventure occur outside of the realms of these individuals, or through these individuals seeking to attack one another for reasons unknown.

despite the fact that it was his homebrewed D&D setting?

FR was not originally written as a D&D setting and actually pre-dates D&D by over 20 years. No that isn't true, I'm misremembering.

[lylsyly]

Ed Greenwood (born July 21, 1959) is a Canadian fantasy writer and the original creator of the Forgotten Realms game world. He began writing articles about the Forgotten Realms for Dragon magazine beginning in 1979, and subsequently sold the rights to the setting to TSR, the creators of the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game, in 1986. He has written many Forgotten Realms novels, as well as numerous articles and D&D game supplement books.

[Alcore]

because it just fits better in the world.


everyone is locked into the renaissance ages. why? with enough level 3 casters with craft wonderous items for just one generation and most problems faced by today's people become moot. Level 1 casters are a game changer. the default assumption doesn't fit unless magic is being rediscovered by the game's beginning.

depending on demographs the number of casters of level 5 in today's world should number, at least, in the tens of thousands. Covid would not be a problem worth mentioning on the evening news. We would already be colonizing Mars


a good number of the basic assumptions for a typical setting don't hold water when scrutinized. Some settings address this and they are more immersive for it.

[Quertus]

If FR wasn't initially written for D&D… and has had its rule base changed numerous times within many characters' lifetimes… I'm not sure if that explains their tactical ineptitude, or simply leaves the world ripe for conquest by someone (internal or external) who actually "gets it".

Rapidly fills up? Of 68.000.000 inhabitants there are the following level 20+:

Spoiler: list

Show

41 Ioulaum (LN elder brain lich Wiz31/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 Qysar Shoon VII (NE male human demilich Necromancer31/Acm5) (p121 Lost Empires of Faerun)
36 The Skulls (CN advanced flameskull Sor26/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p111 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
35 Telamont Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz20/Acm5/Sha10) (p82 Lords of Darkness)
33 Rhangaun (NE male human lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic8) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
32 Larloch (LE Male Human lich Wiz20/Epic12) (p161 Lords of Darkness)
32 Aumvor the Undying (CE augmented elite Netherese human lich Necromancer (15/Acm5/Epic7/NethereseArcanist5) (p127 Champions of Ruin)
32 The Simbul (CN female human Sor20/Acm2/Wiz10) (p112 Unapproachable East)
31 The Keeper of Thaal (NE male human demilich Wiz31) (p179 Underdark)
31 Kartak Spellseer (CE male augmented human lich Nec20/Acm5/Epic6) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
30 Arthindol (N male sarrukh lich Wiz25/Acm5) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)
30 High Lord Planner Illis Khendarhine (LN male deep Imaskari Sor4/Wiz20/Acm6) (p138 Underdark)
30 Lady Saharel (CG female Netherese human ghost Wiz20/Acm5/NethereseArcanist5) (p90 Anauroch: The Empire of Shade)
30 Halaster Blackcloak (male human Wiz25/Acm5) (p6 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
29 Elminster (CG male human Chosen of Mystra Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4)(p7 FRCS)
29 Szass Tam (NE male lich Necromancer10/RedWizard10/Acm2/Epic7) (p169 Unapproachable East)
29 Lord Apprehender Ebrul Naramixna (N male deep Imaskari Sor10/Wiz15/Acm4) (p138 Underdark)
29 Zalathorm Kirkson (LN male human Diviner20/Loremaster4/Halruaan Elder5) (p133 Shining South)
29 Rhaugilath the Ageless (LG male human archlich Wiz22/Acm5/Netherese Arcanist2) (p102 Lost Empires of Faerun)
28 Wulgreth of Ascalhorn (LE male human lich Wiz20/Acm3/Netherese Arcanist5) (p111 Lost Empires of Faerun)
27 Shradin Mulphor (NE nishruu [augmented male human] Necromancer22/Acm5) (p110 (p109 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
27 Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (LN male human Chosen of Mystra Wiz24/Acm3) (p24 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
27 Shangalar the Black (LE male tiefling lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic2) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
27 Priamon "Frostrune" Rakesk (CE male human lich Wiz20/Acm4/Epic3) (p178 Lords of Darkness) ###DECEASED###
26/11 Danchilaer the Mad Mage (LN male Halruaan human Wiz21/Sor6/Acm5) (Dapplegate) [http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...rbk/20060628a]
26 Ardanthe (LN female human Wiz24/Acm2) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight) [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041124a]
26 Belaurant (CN male human Wiz25/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
26 Mardamaun (LN male human Wiz25/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
26 Brennus Tanthul (NE male shade Diviner12/Loremaster8/ShadowAdept6) (p61 Power of Faerun)
26 Lamorak Tanthul (NE male shade Wiz19/Sha7) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
25 Meleghost Zoaster (CN male human Illusionist20/Acm5) (p116 Serpent Kingdoms)
25 Ygnaroth the Necroseer (CE phaerimm Sor25) (p166 Underdark)
25 Daurgothoth (CE male great wyrm black dracolich Wiz20/Acm5) (p42 Dragons of Faerun)
25 Malchor Harpell (NG male Illuskan human Wiz20/Acm5) (p76 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
25 Mattick Tanthul (LE male shade Illusionis16/Sha9) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
25 Vattick Tanthul (LE male shade Illusionis16/Sha9) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
25 Manshoon (LE male human Wiz20/Acm5) (p156 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
25 Izazrem Thal (LN male Rashemi human Wiz16/RedWizard9) (p145 Power of Faerun)
24 Alustriel (CG female human Chosen of Mystra Wiz20/Sor2/Acm2) (p54 Silver Marches)24 Marune the Masked (NE male Tethyrian human Necromancer5/ShadowAdept14/Acm5) (p68 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Nevron (NE male human Cjr10/Red10/Acm2/Epic2) (p278 FRCS)
24 Phaeldara (CN female human Sor16/Wiz8) (p111 Unapproachable East)
24 Telbran Nelarn (CN male Netherese human Sor24) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Pharos (N male moon elf baelnorn Wiz24) (p124 Lost Empires of Faerun)
24 Keiler Twistbeard (CE male Chondathan Wiz20/Planeshifter4) (p115 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
24 Druxus Rhym (NE male human Tra10/Red10/Acm4) (p278 FRCS)
24 Immirton "Redcloak" Loaden (NG male Tashalar human Wiz14/Master Transmogrifist10 [formerly a LG transmuter]; Str 17, Int 18, Wis 17)
23 Tabra (NG female human Wiz18/Acm5) (p101 Lost Empires of Faerun)
23 Dethud Tanthul (LE male shade Nec15/Sha8) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
23 Laeral Silverhand (CG female human Wiz19/Sor4/Rgr7) (p280 FRCS)
23 Aznar Thrul (CE male Mulan human Evoker10/RedWizard10/Acm3) (p24 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
23 Phourkyn One-Eye (NG male human Wiz20/Acm3) (p161 FRCS)
23 Skouloun (CN male human Wiz22/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
23 Ilcanorr of Luthcheq (NE male Turami human Wiz20/Acm1/Epic2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060510a)
23 Shyressa (NE female human vampire Wiz20/Acm3) (p178 Lords of Darkness)
23 Gulgath (CN male human Wiz23) (p90 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
23 Maskar Wands (LN male Tethyrian human Wiz20/Acm3) (p63 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
###DECEASED###
23 Scalmarel the Sage (LE phaerimm Sor23) (p166 Underdark)
22 Nezram the World-Walker (LN male human Mulan Wiz22) (p80 Lost Empires of Faerun)
22 Ornar of the Claw (CE male human Wiz19/Acm3) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
22 Scsilda Starshield (LN female Cali****e human Sor19/ElementalSavant3 [lich of unique status: unturnable]) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20061122
22 Guldor Zauviir (NE male drow Wiz20/Acm2) (p175 Underdark)
22 Lauzoril (NE male human Enc10/Red10/Acm2) (p278 FRCS)
22 Sylune (NG female human spectral harpist Wiz20/Sor2/Ftr2) (p280 FRCS)
22 Yhelbruna (LN female human Clr6/Wiz12/Hatran10) (p147 Unapproachable East)
21/6 Yusendre (CG female human Wiz20/Sor6/Acm1) (The Realm of Nimbral, Part Eight)
21 Lallara (CE female human Abj10/Red10/Acm1) (p278 FRCS)
21 Deltagar Zelhund (LE male human Wiz18/Lor2/Acm1) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
21 Rhodea Firehair (NG female human Evoker18/Halruaan Elder3) (p134 Shining South) ###DECEASED###
20/3/1 Dyrr the Lichdrow (NE male drow lich Sor20/Wiz3/Clr1 of Velsharoon) (p161 Underdark)
20 Talatha Vaerovree of Innarlith (Female human Wiz17/Acm3) (p187 Magic of Faerun)
20 Malaggar Xarann (CE male drow Enchanter20) (p175 Underdark)
20 Srivven (NE male Mulan human Wiz18/Acm2) (Adaerglast, the Land of Mages)
20 Flammuldinath "Firefingers" Thuldoum (CG male human Wiz20) (p161 FRCS)
20 Antatlab of the Shaking Stones (LE male drow Wiz13/Elemental Savant7) (p175 Underdark)
20 Gromph Baenre (NE male drow Diviner 16/Acm4) (p161 Underdark)
20 Hadrhune (NE male shade Wiz10/Sha10) (p83 Lords of Darkness)
20 Jaluth "Snakeface" Alaerth (CE female human Wiz20) (p111 Lords of Darkness)
20 Slarkrethel (NE male kraken Sor20) (p74 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Thurndan Tallwand (CE male human Wiz20) (p90 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
20 Savengriff (LG male Illuskan human Wiz20) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Othur Roonsundyr (CN male human Wiz20) (p109 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Phindounma the Abominable (NE phaerimm Sor20) (p166 Underdark)
20 Mythrellaa (CE female human Ill10/Red7/Sha3) (p278 FRCS)
20 Durendair "Greenshadow" Hammask (NG male Illuskan human Wiz14/Horizon Walker4/MysticTheurge2; Str 17, Dex 16, Int 18, Wis 18)
20 Kappiyan Flurmastyr (NG male Tethyrian human Wiz7/MasterAlchemist10/Loremaster3) (p31 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
20 Amaryth Delbara (CG female Illuskan human Sor14/Incantatrix6) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frbk/20060705a)
20 Flyndara Rildar (CN female Tethyrian human Wiz14/Sor6)
20 Melegaunt Tanthul (LE male shade Div16/Sha4) (p83 Lords of Darkness) ###DECEASED###
20/8 The Farseer (LN male Tashlutan human Clr8 of Savras/Diviner10/MysticTheurge10) (p126 Serpent Kingdoms)
20 Zannaster (LE male Chondathan human Necromancer5/Wearer of Purple10/Acm5) (p55 Dragons of Faerun)
20 Alathene Moonstar (CG archlich [augmented Illuskan human] Wiz15/ArcaneDevotee5[Selune]) (p62 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)

Thats not really filling up... nor are all of these actively trying to change the world or dominate it!

I feel compelled to point out that the Expedition to Undermountain adventure (technically written to be setting-agnostic, but yeah right) has, in the tavern atop the entrance to the dungeon, an 18th level fighter (hahahahahahahaha) barkeep and an 18th level wizard/splash of PrC hanging around in the bar randomly wasting his time mindreading lowlevel punks who blunder out of the dungeon.

This doesn’t take into consideration Halaster, the presumably epic level wizard who dies at the beginning of the adventure but manages to trouble, among any number of presumably higher-leveled but strangely ineffectual punks, an unleveled PC with a piece of his soul (because of course he does), or the living spell wish sorcerer 19 hanging around on the first level of the dungeon specifically to hand a ridiculously useful minor artifact to a PC.... because.

And this is for a adventure/campaign that theoretically starts at level 1.

Given the frequency with which high-level NPCs seem to appear in FR adventures generally, it seems likely that there are an awful lot of them (e.g. rather more than merely those specifically named in sourcebooks and adventures) and/or they have an uncanny knack to gravitating to anyplace with PCs without, you know, doing much of anything about the world-shaking problems right under their noses. (Including the literal, earth-shaking, apocalyptic, biggest-city-in-the-campaign-could-be-obliterated, yet strangely unspecified, threat of Expedition to Undermountain.)

I believe that the list also misses Flamsterd, from Halls of the High King. Doubtless there's others.

I am unfamiliar with Afro Samurai, however I will point out that one does not simply "cease" to become the Magister. Once you have it there are only two ways out:

1. You lose a spell duel to a superior spellcaster, who then becomes your successor. This was scrubbed after the Time of Trouble however.
2. Azuth and/or Mystra select you as the Magister.

You cease being the Magister… by being selected as the Magister?

There is an alternative where you do retire and Azuth AND Mystra approve and allow you to exist as a magic item (or construct of magical making), reincarnated as a magical creature or a monster with some enhanced magical abilities (such as a beholder), or you exist as a Chosen of Azuth (which is arguably a fate worse than death). So yeah, you might be better off training a potential successor.

So, you can become a sentient slave, a sentient slave, an only questionably sentient armless fat man who can't even scratch their own itches, or… something that gets heralded as a fate worse than death? Just how bad is Chosen of Azuth to possibly be the worst option here?

I feel that you are either ignoring or missing the point of my statement so I'll simplify it: The reason why 3.x D&D Wizards do not run around picking fights with one another on an epic scale is because they do not wish to fight other equal (or greater) Wizards who are capable of the same degree of destruction that they are capable of. In Tippy's Point of Light campaign setting, this is essentially the case taken to it's most logical (or illogical if you ask me) extreme. You have high level Spellcasters (mostly Wizards) that rule magically protected cities that are connected via teleportation circles. There is no reason for conflict since their power is largely absolute, resources are bountiful, and most sources of adventure occur outside of the realms of these individuals, or through these individuals seeking to attack one another for reasons unknown.

So, in 3e, one Vecna blooded later, and the FR is a completely different place?

FR was not originally written as a D&D setting and actually pre-dates D&D by over 20 years.

I didn't think that Ed Greenwood was old enough for that to be possible.

[Asmotherion]

because it just fits better in the world.


everyone is locked into the renaissance ages. why? with enough level 3 casters with craft wonderous items for just one generation and most problems faced by today's people become moot. Level 1 casters are a game changer. the default assumption doesn't fit unless magic is being rediscovered by the game's beginning.

depending on demographs the number of casters of level 5 in today's world should number, at least, in the tens of thousands. Covid would not be a problem worth mentioning on the evening news. We would already be colonizing Mars


a good number of the basic assumptions for a typical setting don't hold water when scrutinized. Some settings address this and they are more immersive for it.

The problem with all this is you assume that:

A) Mages are willing to share power in favor of a better and equalitarian society.

Those ideals are relatively new, even in our society. The social model that worked for millenia up until these last few centuaries was, an elit having access to all the best technological wonders that made their life as easy and comfortable as possible, while the non-elite (the vast majority of the population) had to rely on almost primal technology to survive. So, for example, nobody says the idea of a pluming system didn't exist for millenia, just that only the Elit had access to it. Similarly, if some mage decided to create a base on the moon, why would he share it with the rest of the world.

B) There would not be any challenges for this to hold true.

In our previous example, who says an other Mage didn't do the same ages ago, and now considers the Moon his own domain; Or that there is an entire civilisation on the moon of very powerful creatures; Why risk it when you have the ability to create your own demiplane? Cell phones? Why make widelly accessible a technology that can be used for espionage, especially in a world were war happens every decade or so, when you can prevent that by using mages for telecomunications instead?

[Morty]

Using low magic in general is just another style of world-building. Using it in 3E D&D in particular... I don't get it either. Removing magic means removing everything that's actually interesting about the system - you can't really do anything without it. A no-magic game would resemble Monty Python and the Holy Grail, a low-magic one would be only somewhat better.

[AvatarVecna]

I have it from Candlekeep: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15659

Spoiler: Response

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A few things to address on the 2e side of things:

1) 65-70 million is, if you google around for other candlekeep sources on the exact same subject, a controversial assessment. It's unclear how much it accounts for people living away from larger society as a whole, or non-standard races, or the Underdark in general. And for that matter, at least from the discussions I've seen of it, I'm still pretty sure people are saying "Faerun has 70 million", not "Toril has 70 million" - to say nothing of how other planes or dimensions or...whatever the thing Faerun has with Greyhawk is...account into things.

2) There's only the one primary requirement, with the rest being assertions and assumptions that aren't necessarily backed up elsewhere in the rules - if the link is to be believed, the rules quote it, itself, saying that those specific aspects are just assertions and assumptions.

But it's also kind of irrelevant.

While I generally agree with your points I feel like people forget a few thing. One thing is that there are quite few high level characters, which is why magic is not omnipresent. Like, fearun has about 70 mil, 10% are level 1 adventures, 50% of that are level 2, 50% of that are level 3.... etc, basically leaving you with 13 level 20 characters... and not all of them are necessarily a spellcaster...

Secondly, its not only friendly characters who are these levels, they are total, ergo, there are possible just a handful of good aligned meaning that even though magic solves everything, its not readily available and evil will be there to spoil what ever the good guys are doing... So I don't thing everything inflated beyond LotR/witcher etc... at least not as a rule!

So remember, that there are only 13 level 20 characters in faerun, not all of them are spellcasters... and not all of them are good...

People didn't necessarily "forget", it's just that it's not relevant to a discussion about 3e power dynamics. This isn't specifically a discussion about why 2e Faerun is low-power, this is a discussion about why 3e D&D regardless of setting trends towards high-magic instead of low magic, and is asking the people who want to play low-magic in 3e why they want to play low-magic in a system that very much isn't. Saying "being an adventurer was rare in 2e Faerun" or "being a high-level adventurer was nigh-unheard of in 2e Faerun" isn't wrong, but it's comparing apples and oranges - the building blocks of Faerun's reality warp between editions, and the question of where 3e Faerun falls on high-magic vs low-magic setting isn't easier to answer by saying "well it used to be this way". It'd be just as irrelevant to answer the same question about 5e's low-vs-high-magic by saying "well you used to be able to craft magic items using gold and XP so 5e is actually high-magic".

That's also why I'm going to insist that yes, if the numbers 2e rules indicate are different from the numbers that 3e rules indicate, the latter takes precedent for the 3e setting discussion. Does this mean that weird things happen in-universe at the moment of edition-change, such as with how common 9th lvl spells are in the discussion? Yeah, that's...kinda the point I'm making.

But, its not a lot of high level casters... so one really have to ask whether its enough to change/evolve a fantasy setting into some crazy tippyverse/marvel universe...

That's also kinda the issue: if nobody is already doing it, then the number of high-level mages it takes to turn the setting tush-over-tea-kettle is one. Past a certain point, it honestly ceases to matter: if the setting of Faerun was 68 million lvl 100 Wizards who are all low-op, and one lvl 17 Wizard who is high-op, the setting is going to warp to be high-magic real quick. That's even saying the one mage is 100% going to take over - it's more a matter of evolution: either the higher-level mages take steps to stay competitive (wishing themselves to infinite everything, or whatever the trick of the week is), or they're going to be too late and get swept aside. There are spells who's existence is incapable of not fundamentally altering the setting: there is not discernible difference between 68 mages who know how to cast Teleport Through Time, or 68 million mages who know how; the only important difference, as far as setting integrity goes, as the difference between 0 and 1.

Now, so that the discussion has an idea of the numbers Faerun is actually working with...

Spoiler: 3e demographics by level

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Since this is a 3e thread, not a 3.5 thread, and we kinda need to account for the possibility of epic characters anyway, we'll use the DMG in combination with the 3e ELH to figure out particularly large population centers and how they fit into the grand scheme of things in Forgotten Realms. Some quick research indicates that around 1 in 4 metropolises is big enough to be a Planar Metropolis. I'll assume average population for all but PMs, which I'll assume average at 4 times the size of a standard metropolis. Oh, and a Planar Metropolis isn't exclusively on other planes, it's just the word used to denote metropolises of a certain size. I'll work assuming ~100 million for all of Toril, partially because who knows how populated the non-Faerun parts of Toril are, and partially because it's a nice number to work with for showing percentages. The way this works out, there's:

• 68 Planar Metropolises
• 204 Standard Metropolises
• 1088 Large Cities
• 2720 Small Cities
• 4080 Large Towns
• 5440 Small Towns
• 5440 Villages
• 5440 Hamlets
• 2720 Thorps

Which is 100,143,600 people (and yeah I'm ignoring the "there's a random druid 14 hanging around in this thorp" thing, it makes things more complicated and the number of high-level casters doesn't really need that boost). Here's the breakdown by level and class for the world of Toril:

Link

This is just using the 3.0 random population center generation rules. And this 100 million figure still has a lot of those "but it seems like you're leaving out all these people who could also have class levels or spells or SLAs" issue that the 70 million figure had. Assuming there's 100 million on all of Toril, which might well be lowballing it, we're still looking at 7004 people who can cast 9th lvl spells without even touching on monsters. This gets slightly better if we go to 3.5 without touching the 3.0 rules in the ELH- I'm not doing a full page in the spreadsheet for that the way I did for this, because this took waaaaaaaay too long to do, but let it suffice to say that everything gets squeezed into 28 levels, and nothing but experts and commoners are epic. That would make the percentage of super-casters much lower, but it'd still be absurdly high...and as I mentioned earlier, you don't really need more than one caster raising the charop ceiling for the setting to start bursting at the seams.

Right, FR imposes authorial fiat in order to behave the way its author wants it to and not according to the way the game rules suggest it should operate (and in fairness to Ed Greenwood, FR only operates on D&D rules because he realized he could make considerably more money that way, it was never originally intended to be a D&D setting). That mostly works for FR, which also has the legacy of previous editions to use as a shield. Even given this, though, a consider portion of the population of the Realms lives either under the direct control of some kind of wizard-king/magocratic ruling council (or some other monstrous entity with 9th level spellcasting) or in a kingdom where the resident archwizard could easily take control but just doesn't because they think it would be too much work or something.

I do wanna address this a bit as well: Faerun wasn't made as "3.X: The Primary Setting", it came about first and was made to fit with D&D for business reasons. That Faerun has inherited the setting implications of 3.5's mechanics isn't the fault of the person who made the setting in the first place. It's not Ed Greenwood's fault that his setting got grandfathered into an edition that would very much break it.

But...

However, if you design a setting based in 3.X D&D from scratch you can't run around this problem in the same way that FR does.

...somebody else has. A lot of somebody's, actually. There was a contest, you see. And the winner was Eberron.

Faerun handles the 3.X problem by putting everybody at that level of things in a mutually-assured destruction scenario, where the assumption is that anybody whose risen too high is more restricted in their actions for fear of retaliation from the only people who can threaten them anymore. The issue with this approach is that it's still too easy to get so good at breaking the game that even those people are no longer a threat, even if they're twice your level and can buy the moon, because they're idiots. If a player breaks things badly enough, either the setting falls in line with their wishes, or the setting resists by having all those figures Get Serious, and either way the setting will be vastly changed by the end of it.

Eberron solves this problem by instead simply removing full sections of play from most of the world. Instead of a dozen, or a hundred, or seven thousand very-high-level mages running around who simply choose not to use their phenomenal cosmic powers to reshape the face of the planet in their vision, there number of NPCs who hit double digit levels is rather low (...for the most part, but the exceptions are one of the weirdnesses in the setting). The percentage of the world that hits 5th lvl spells is sooooooo much lower than in Faerun, forget about 9th, and definitely forget about epic. And the exceptions to this rule tend to either be unable to fully wield their power, are imprisoned to keep them from wielding their power, or hold off on wielding it to avoid interfering in Dragon Prophecy stuff too much. It's kinda like if that Mutually-Assured-Destruction thing in Faerun wasn't enforced by all the other high-level mages, but was more a direct consequence of the Weave itself.