LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[liquidformat]

Ok, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

I'll admit, I didn't consider the implications of rage post combat. I sort of assumed it was over when the enemy is dead.

+1 probably makes more sense then.

I think RAI that might be correct but by RAW it is infinite rage and strangely enough I have never had a dm who argued against the infinite rage, I am partial to gnome ranger starting with a Warbeast wolverine at level 4 it is great especially if you take natural bond.

[AvatarVecna]

Spoiler: Comparison

Show

Category	Badger	Carcass Eater	Advantage
Size	Small	Small	-
Type	Animal	Animal	-
HD/HP	1d8+2 (6 HP)	1d8+3 (7 HP)	Carcass Eater (+1 HP)
Initiative	+3	+3	-
Speeds	Land 30 Burrow 10	Land 30 Burrow 10	-
AC	15 (1 natural) Touch 14 FF 12	15 (1 natural) Touch 14 FF 12	-
BAB	+0	+0	-
Grapple	-5	-5	-
Attack	+4 (1d2-1)	+4 (1d4-1)	Carcass Eater (DPR +1)
Full Attack	2x +4 (1d2-1), 1x -1 (1d3-1)	2x +4 (1d4-1), 1x -1 (1d2-1)	Carcass Eater (DPR +2)
SAs	Rage	Blood Frenzy	Carcass Eater (Blood Frenzy)
SQs	Low-Light Vision Scent	Low-Light Vision Scent	-
Fort	+4	+5	Carcass Eater (Fort +1)
Ref	+5	+5	-
Will	+1	+1	-
Str	8	8	-
Dex	17	17	-
Con	15	17	Carcass Eater (Con +2)
Int	2	2	-
Wis	12	12	-
Cha	6	6	-
Race Skill Bonuses	Escape Artist +4	Hide +4	Carcass Eater (IMO Hide is better)
Bonus Feats	Track Weapon Finesse	Weapon Finesse	Badger (Track)

Con +2, 1d4 primary weapon damage instead of 1d2, and Hide +4 instead of Escape Artist +4 does not the difference between +2 and +1 make, especially since Badger has an extra bonus feat. LA +1.

[Caelestion]

Was the badger originally given +1? (I can't find the archive thread any more.)

[AMX]

Was the badger originally given +1? (I can't find the archive thread any more.)

Yes.

Archive thread is there:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ive&p=21798987

[Debatra]

With three days and a unanimous six votes, the rating is +1

Cinderspawn coming soon.

Also, new archive link added to OP.

[Debatra]

Cinderspawn

Size & Type: Large Undead (Fire)
HD: 10
Speed: 50'
Ability Scores: Str +2, Dex +10, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +6 - Net +18, no penalties
Natural Armor: 3
Natural Weapons: One Primary Touch (2d6 cold)
Skill List: Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Ignan)
CR: 6
WotC LA: +4
Our LA: -0

Undead fire elementals. For reference, we gave Large Fire Elementals -0, and they have less RHD. Like their living counterparts, they have immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold, as well as an inability to enter non-flammable liquids. A character capable of turning/rebuking both undead and fire creatures gets a +2 on their turning checks against Cinderspawn. They are otherwise not especially vulnerable or resistant to turning. And no, it does not also have elemental traits.

You'd think these things would deal fire damage, but no. They deal cold damage by draining the heat out of their targets. They do this with a touch, as well as dealing 1d6 to anything that hits it in melee with a natural or non-reach weapon. Their touch (but not the damage they deal to attackers) also forces living creatures to make a Cha-based Fortitude save or take 1d6 Charisma drain. This feeds its Inescapable Craving. Creatures with the fire subtype take a -4 to this save. Any amount of Charisma drained grants the Cinderspawn five temporary HP that last an hour.

WotC gave these things +4 LA, which is of course insane.

[Blue Jay]

The cinderspawn gets LA -0 from me. I figure the +18 in stats is good for about 6 hit dice, as far as stats go; but the monster just doesn't do anything else. This monster doesn't really do much else: just one attack that deals cold damage and Charisma damage, and one passive ability that deals cold damage in an area. Almost everything else (aside from undead traits) it has are vulnerabilities.

I love the concept of an undead fire elemental creature being "inverted," so it deals cold damage; and that makes me really want to like this monster. But it's just too weak, especially for 10 HD. Maybe if you put these ability modifiers and special abilities on a 5- or 6-HD creature, it would be more palatable, but 10 levels for cold damage and Charisma damage is just sad.

[H_H_F_F]

How could they even think this thing deserves a +4?

Anyway, this is a pretty easy -0 in my view. 10 RHD is a heavy burden to bear, and I don't see anything making those HD worth it even without LA.

[Caelestion]

I concur that they'd be worth playing at about 6 RHD. LA -0.

[Thurbane]

Spoiler

Show

Cinderellaspawn

• Large Undead (fire) with reach
• 10 RHD (d12hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill point's/"level")
• 50 ft speed: decent.
• +3 natural AC.
• Touch 2d6 cold + 1d6 Cha drain a
• Charisma drain: gain 5 temp hit points when you inflict charisma drain.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Elemental turning vulnerability: slightly more vulnerable to beings that can turn undead and fire elementals.
• Frostfire shield: any creature physically attacking you with a non-reach weapon takes 1d6 cold damage.
• Immunity to fire/vulnerability to cold. Also worth mentioning, cannot enter water or non-flammable liquid.
• Inescapable craving: Charisma.
• Undead traits: the usual.
• Str +2, Dex +10, Con --, Cha +6: net +18, no penalties, one non-ability. Not bad, but not amazing at 10HD.
• Small, but generally useful, racial skill list.

Large humanoid in form, can speak. Should have no trouble with progression, or most gear.

I wanted this to be playable, but your only real selling point is Charisma drain, and some minor cold damage. I mean, good speed and reach are nice, but that Str modifier is disappointing for a melee type, not to mention poor BAB. I guess you could take a Necrotic Focus weapon to inflict Cha drain, and take Weapon Finesse, but that poor BAB hurts this concept. It also has some built-in vulnerabilities that , while not crippling, would be annoying for a PC. If I were pushed to make this into a character, I feel I'd go Crusader, and use a finessable Necrotic Focus weapon (maybe a spiked chain), as mentioned. I'm not very familiar with Incarnum, but maybe a class that gives extra natural attacks might also be OK?

I feel like with a few less HD this would be viable, but as it stands, LA -0 from me.

[danielxcutter]

How could they even think this thing deserves a +4?

I’m pretty sure someone at WotC hated monstrous creatures and only gave ECL a pass to cripple them.

[AvatarVecna]

Easy LA -0.

[liquidformat]

yeah -0 LA nothing to see here....

[Debatra]

-0, more or less as expected. Corpse Rat Swarm in a moment.

[Debatra]

Corpse Rat Swarm

Size & Type: Tiny Undead (Swarm)
HD: 8
Speed: 15', climb 15'
Ability Scores: Str -6, Dex +2, Con -, Int -, Wis +0, Cha -10 - Net -14, two penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: Swarm (1d6)
Skill List: -
Body Shape: Rat Swarm
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 4
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

The Bone Rat Swarm's zombified cousin. Slightly worse ability scores, DR 5/slashing instead of bludgeoning, and filth fever instead of cold immunity. That's worth double the HD of a creature we already gave -0 to, right?

...Right?

[Lapak]

The Bone Rat Swarm's zombified cousin. Slightly worse ability scores, DR 5/slashing instead of bludgeoning, and filth fever instead of cold immunity. That's worth double the HD of a creature we already gave -0 to, right?

...Right?

In that two times 0 is still 0, sure. LA -0, probably the easiest one in this book so far.

[Thurbane]

Yep, no detailed breakdown for this one: easy LA -0 from me.

[AvatarVecna]

Easy -0 here.

[Efrate]

-0 For the last one I missed as well will not change anything.

[Blue Jay]

Corpse rat LA -0. Seems pretty obvious to me.

[H_H_F_F]

-0. This is a no brainer.

[remetagross]

This is a no brainer.

Referencing the swarm here?

Of course LA -0.

[liquidformat]

-0 LA enough said

[Debatra]

And in a surprise twist, the Corpse Rat Swarm actually gets... exactly what everyone already knew it would. -0, moving on to Crypt Chanter.

[Debatra]

Crypt Chanter

Size & Type: Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
HD: 7
Speed: 30', Fly 30' (perfect) (...An incorporeal creature with a land speed? Okay WotC.)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +8, Con -, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +10 - Net +26, no penalties
Natural Armor: 0 (Cha to Deflection)
Natural Weapons: Incorporeal Touch (1d8)
Skill List: Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Perform (Sing), Search, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): ...Sort of. See below. (Common, Abyssal)
CR: 7
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1* (uncapped spawn ability)

First thing's first. It has an uncapped spawn ability. Any humanoid killed by its Draining Melody becomes a Crypt Chanter under the control of its creator in 1d4 rounds. Asterisk. Like the Bleakborn before it, this is both its own ability in the monster entry as well as a rider on Draining Melody, so I guess that's going to be a thing in this book. Good thing we established that we can indeed only partially remove abilities.

Second, the "sort of" I put for speech. I'm just going to quote the book here:

A crypt chanter never speaks directly, though it may give instructions or provide answers within the lyrics of its music (usually in Common, sometimes Abyssal).

So you could maybe interpret that as being able to speak for what needs it, or maybe not. I'll leave that for discussion.

Daylight Powerlessness and +2 Turn Resistance cap off a decent chassis, but we're dealing with a one-trick pony here. Draining Melody is a sonic, mind-affecting, compulsion ability. While you're singing, all creatures within 60' make a Cha-based will save or are dazed for as long as the music continues. Note that says "as long as the music continues". RAI would probably be "as long as they remain within 60 feet", or maybe even "as long as they can hear you sing". But by strict-but-silly RAW, you could daze someone and then just leave them there while you go adventuring. This isn't the Dysfunctional Rules thread though, and I don't think it would be beyond our scope to interpret this in a non-silly way.

The round after becoming dazed, victims must make a second save or become enthralled, as the spell. This is redundant, as they're still dazed. But anyone who becomes enthralled takes 1d2 negative levels per round. This part of the ability actually does specify needing to stay within range. Every time it inflicts negative levels, it gets five temporary HP for each one.

Creatures who make the initial save are immune to that Crypt Chanter's Draining Melody. Not for 24 hours like most abilities with this kind of text, but until the Chanter stops singing for at least a full round and starts again. This releases everything else that failed their saves though. At least this thing can actually turn off its "everything near me potentially dies" aura.

Mind-affecting, sonic, compulsion, negative levels, and the Enthrall spell is also language-dependent. (It says creatures who become enthralled take negative levels, not just that they have to fail the second save.) That's a lot of potential shut-downs for this pony's one trick. That said, language-dependency and negative energy protection won't turn off the dazing effect, so it's still a potent mass-save-or-lose. And the fact that you can keep it up constantly means you can just keep turning it off and on again at the dungeon entrance until your party all make their initial saves. This creates some additional risk for attempting to enthrall targets a second time if your allies aren't actually warded though.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Siren (Savage Species) is the obvious progression path. The fact that immunity to the Draining Melody is revoked after just one round, rather than 24 hours, is pretty dang considerate.

You'd probably need Melodic Casting for verbal components if you can only speak by singing. However, with 7HD already, you're probably not going into casting anyway.

[Thurbane]

CRYPT CHANTER

• Medium Undead (incorporeal)
• 7 RHD (d12hp, poor BAB, 1 good save, 4 skill points/"level")
• 30 ft speed, 30 ft fly (prefect): flying is always nice.
• Cha bonus as defelction to AC.
• Incorporeal touch 1d8.
• Draining melody: will save to avoid being dazed, in a 60 ft radius. Round after being dazed, must save or be enthralled, and suffer 1d2 negative levels per round. Crypt chanter gains 5 temp HP for each negative level bestowed.
• Create spawn: unlimited spawning of new crypt chanters, under your control. Humanoids rise after 1d4 rounds.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Daylight powerlessness: annoying and restrictive.
• incorporeal traits: usual defensive bonuses, and gear etc. drawbacks.
• Undead traits: the usual.
• +2 turn resistance: always welcome, even if numbers are small.
• Str --, Dex +8, Con --, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +10: net +26, two non-abilities.
• Small but OK-ish skill list.

Incorporeal medium humanoid; usual gear issues for incorporeal beings - you'll be wanting the Ghostly Grasp feat (although I don't think we've ever resolved what effective Str score incorporeals use for manipulating objects?). Never "speaks", but can communicate with lyrics in Common or sometimes Abyssal - not sure how that interacts with verbal spell components or command words?

Is incorporeal, and has a powerful area attack that immobilises enemies, then energy drains them. Unlimited spawn potential obviously calls for an asterisk. Has decent ability score mods, too. Progression? I guess you'd be aiming for a fast progression casting PrC if you can, or maybe a skillmonkey class? Your innate abilities make you a bit of a one trick pony, but you can potentially "one shot" a lot of encounters if enemies without immunities fail their save.

I'm voting LA +2*, although I might be argued down to LA +1*. Maybe.

[AvatarVecna]

LA +2*

Even without uncapped controlled fast spawning, AoE dazed/enthralled/negative levels is potent. FWIW my take is that their "speaking" isn't really enough for them to be able to do verbal components, although I might make an exception for bards/bard-based PrCs.

[Thurbane]

Even without uncapped controlled fast spawning, AoE dazed/enthralled/negative levels is potent. FWIW my take is that their "speaking" isn't really enough for them to be able to do verbal components, although I might make an exception for bards/bard-based PrCs.

Sounds like Nonverbal Spell may be required for standard casting classes.

You still make noise when casting such a spell (which may be anything from recognizable speech to elaborate song to simple growls), but the noise is unrecognizable as a verbal spell component.

[Zecrin]

Personally, I feel that the Crypt Chanter compares very unfavorably to a Ghost Bard 4.

The Chanter reminds me somewhat of a lower HD Phantasmal Slayer which (in part) got a -0 because it was so crippled by immunity to mind-affecting effects which so frequently pops up at higher levels.

Specifically at high levels, trading 7 class levels for 7 undead RHD, +10 Charisma, incorporealness, and a single medium-DC save-or-lose that also affects allies and can't be switched off seems like a bad choice.

Throw in daylight powerlessness and this creature strikes me as LA -0.