LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Blue Jay]

Wow, I'm really on a different page with this monster. My original thought is that this monster isn't particularly good, and I voted LA +0* for the crypt chanter in my spreadsheet. The Draining Melody is quite potent, but it is gated behind 2 saving throws, and it's not friendly (with no easy way to bypass the friendly-fire problem, either). To me, it seems like it's going to be awfully difficult to use, and even when you can use it, it's an awfully boring way to play the game.

Also, because Draining Melody mimics the enthrall spell, and enthrall ends when an overtly hostile action is taken, and Draining Melody is itself an overtly hostile action... I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it, but that seems like something that could attract special DM rulings.

Incorporeality is also kind of a big deal, but I think this monster is getting to the point in the game where it's not as big a deal anymore. And it does come with some drawbacks and quirkiness.

Daylight powerlessness is pretty debilitating outside of a dungeon context, so it's going to be a big deal in many games.

I'd like to see a little more discussion before I log an actual vote.

[Debatra]

For what it's worth, I'm of the mindset that command word items should be fine. The facts that you'd never have to make a Concentration check for them, and can even trigger them accidentally by saying the trigger word, suggest you don't have to be nearly as precise as with verbal components.

[Falontani]

Is their draining music ability able to function with something like Bardic Music? Because I'm thinking of a pretty scary lockdown build with that one. Inspire Awe + the song + Intimidate + Imperious Command and you are set for anything not immune to you. Once you have those you choose one of the following:
Bard + Knowledge Devotion, Focus on skills and Incorporeal Touch Attacks
Straight Bard + Dirgesinger, never stop singing, raise the best combatant you can, and use them to actually do stuff with you being the buff monkey
Bard into Seeker of the Song, never stop singing, use music to blast?
I see many opportunities for the character to stay relevant as a T3 class without looking at the Siren prestige class from Savage Species, which will make you a straight up scary character as long as you affect your opponents.

[liquidformat]

This one is really screwy, the fact that it can't talk but actually can isn't really a big deal we already have the ghostwise halfling that can't speak and that other thing from planar handbook so this is just par for the course. The real screwyness comes from Draining Melody, the first line says chanter constantly sings but later it says it can stop singing so odd bit of mechanical derpyness there. The way that Draining Melody is described it isn't an active ability but a biproduct of singing so its left up to interpretation how it interacts with bardic music and other abilities. Personally I think it should work with bardic music as a rider affect on your bardic music. Which would mean each time you use a different bardic music use you would be starting a new song and your draining melody would have the same duration constraint as the bardi music ability you are using with it but that is just my opinion.

Now to the real screwyness of Draining Melody, ignoring the spawn ability lets jump into it. Round one any creature within 60' of you who fails their save is dazed as long as the music continues, note dazed is typically only a 1 round ability and as mentioned above this doesn't say anything about distance so this is a bit screwy already since it is only limited to 'as long as you keep the song going'. Second round if they fail a second save they are affected as if by an enthrall spell, note again no range limit called out here for enthralled individuals; however, it might be fair to use the range of enthrall spell using chanter RHD as CL so 170' (100'+10*RHD'). Let's just talk about that for a second, what's the point of enthralling someone who is already dazed, also its unclear if these two abilities stack or does enthrall replace dazed? Personally, I think this was bad editing and it was supposed to be first round daze then second round save again or become enthralled as the spell since dazed is supposed to be a one round only effect, but that is at most RAI.

Enthrall actively makes Draining Melody worse if dazed is an ongoing ability and not just a one round effect. For starters read the first paragraph 'Any potentially affected creature of a race or religion unfriendly to yours gets a +4 bonus on the saving throw.' so by default everyone gets a +4 bonus to their save to overcome the second save. Reading further, enthrall has a maximum duration, so this changes Draining Melody from as long as you sing to 1 hour +1d3 rounds. Reading further, Those unaffected can heckle you to negate your song, so built in shutdown to Draining Melody. Also attacking or other hostile acts turn the 'audience' hostile also ending the performance, for sake of argument I will take a RAI stance that the level drain isn't taken into account here since it isn't 'overtly hostile' you aren't actively trying to kill them you are passively doing so. Finally, those who fail their second save and are affected by enthrall are also subject to 1d2 negative levels/round as long as they are within 60' of you and you gain 5 hp/negative level of temp hp that lasts for an hour so that is helpful for healing and is uncapped temp hp.

To be honest you are better off if they fail the second save as since standing dazed is better than being enthralled (ignoring the temp hp) assuming dazed is in fact an ongoing and not one round effect...

Anyways reading through the ability I think the intent was for the first round of Draining Melody to daze everyone within 60' since daze is only supposed to last a single round, second round if the victim fails a second save they would be enthralled as in the spell and while you stay within 60' of the victim they gains 1d2 negative levels/round. mechanically that does make more sense but questionably drops the power level down if you rule the victims are dazed and enthralled at the same time.

The real question here is how powerful is Draining Melody, having two saves with a bonus +4 to everyone's second save baked in is pretty bad. Also depending on how dazed and enthrall is ruled to interact also dramatically affects the power level. Does Enthrall supersede daze? If it doesn't and the victim is both enthralled and dazed do the conditions laid out inside of enthrall to end enthrall also end the dazed condition? Personally I think we need to address how we interpret Draining Melody functioning as it does make a large difference in the rating of this monster.

As it standing Draining Melody might be dysfunctional enough and unclear enough that it should be scrapped along with the spawn ability. However, even leaving it I don't think there is enough here for +0 mind affecting effects start to fall in power at level 10 due to monster and spell immunity so that is three levels. Also the ability isn't party friendly or friendly with anything else, reading through anytime you speak you are using draining melody so verbally communicating is always a form of attack for you, I guess you could pickup sign language?

over all I think I am comfortable with -0* LA though open to adjustment.

[danielxcutter]

I suppose the question is, "what the bloody hells are you going to advance this into".

The undead-specific prestige classes could work, I guess, and maybe Soul Eater as well for what that's worth.

[Falontani]

I suppose the question is, "what the bloody hells are you going to advance this into".

The undead-specific prestige classes could work, I guess, and maybe Soul Eater as well for what that's worth.

Soul Eater is a no go, it requires you to be a living creature.

Siren from Savage Species is the most viable route for you to go.

Speaking (and singing) is a free action, although activating bardic music is a standard action (usually) so you can do your main shtick while doing nearly anything else. Spellcasting is the hardest thing for you to get into with 7 RHD, no on board spellcasting, and the almost certain requirement of a feat in order to meet the Verbal Components.

This said:
You have several Bard prestige classes such as Dirgesinger which only require you to continue a performance to be effective. So classes such as Dirgesinger work well with this creature.

Its touch attack deals 1d8 points of straight damage, which is decent compared to most other non ability damaging/draining touch attacks. Pick up Ghostly Grasp from the same book and you can do decently as a mid line skirmisher. You'd just have to pick up some riders. But this is certainly less viable unless you went an initiator.

Intimidate! This is a good idea for you. You are already causing everything to make saves or become dazed, enthralled, and energy drained, pick up the intimidate line and be a general debuffer. This is a cheap route to go, but doesn't save you from mind affecting immunity.

Final one that might be fairly decent is the feat Spell Drain. For 3 feats then at 8 HD this comes online. Whenever you neg level a prepared spellcaster and that spellcaster loses a prepared spell (which is of their highest level) you gain the ability to cast that spell. You use their CL, DC, etc. You don't need to meet the prerequisites to cast the spell yourself. You retain the spell for up to an hour. For HD 9+ you can ease your way into Spellthief. Make a touch attack sneak attack using your infinite move silently, your class skill hide, your high dex, and perfect maneuverability to steal a spell, either from the opponent or even an ally. And spend the turns that you can casting spells that aren't yours. This goes down in viability if your DM doesn't throw spellcasters at you, or if enemies are immune to your song (again this can be likely depending on the campaign) but even at the strictest you are able to steal spells from your comrades if they allow you to. (voluntarily fail a save or three, lower their energy drain immunity, allow you to use steal spell on them, etc).

This is all without looking into fast progression spellcasting such as Ur Priest or Sublime Chord.

[Remuko]

seems like a -0* to me

[Blue Jay]

I guess I'm going to stick with my original feeling of LA +0* for the crypt chanter (vote amended below). Draining Melody is a powerful attack, but it's got limitations, and the monster doesn't really do much else. Being incorporeal adds some good defenses, and it does give it some stealth and scouting options on top of the one special attack, so maybe I could see it getting up to LA +1*, but I guess ECL 7 is good enough.

[Efrate]

+1*. * for uncapped spawn as usual. Incorporealness still makes you more or less immune to nearly all non humanoids. Thats a potent defense at a level where it is still relevant.

Obviously you focus on song, then go from there. +4 to saves is mitigated by your charisma bonus, not great but not terrible. With 2 non abilities you can start with like +9 cha easily enough.

An at will save or suck which you can work around with your party and has potentially infinite range and duration is really, REALLY good.

Bard, Siren, Warlock, DFA, or even binder with ghostly grasp work. So does marshall with anything. Psionics or initator, beguiler or spelltheif, or a scout type class would be fine. Ghostly grasp is kind of a feat tax in most places. Also fixes all your gear issues. Will maybe need nonverbal spell as well but I think thats fine. Permanent tongues so if enemiea have a language they are potentially affected?

I think its an upgrade to any t3 or lower class at that level so I give it that. You have scenarios where your main schtick does not work but thats fine, you are not comparable to a t1 or 2, having limitations is okay.

[Debatra]

I'm not really seeing how everything gets the +4 from enthrall. I guess you could argue that undead are the antithesis of life, therefore opposed to living creatures, but I'm not really sure that works.

[Zecrin]

In most cases, isn't it just better to play a ghost?

Skill bonuses, better turn resistance, rejuvenation, etherealness, and save or lose/suck abilities (like frightful moan or malevolence) > draining melody, daylight powerlessness, and +16 hp.

and

4 class levels > +6 Cha, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +4 Dex.

This is, however, somewhat subjective.

[Caelestion]

So, what's the potential T3 Ghost build that's straight-up better than this monster?

[Blue Jay]

. An at will save or suck which you can work around with your party and has potentially infinite range and duration is really, REALLY good.

What's the workaround, though? There's no immunity on a successful save, so you have to release everyone from the effect, then force everyone to save again next turn. So, you'll just keep starting over, turn after turn, essentially doing nothing, until you get a combination of successes and failures among allies and enemies that you find favorable.

I'm still waffling a bit, but I'm just not convinced that this is going to turn up advantageous in enough situations to really make it worthwhile.

[Efrate]

You take a few moments to have them all save at once then do not worry about it just keep it up. As a DM if it is party of the morning buff routine I would hand wave it or just a friend cast magic circle against whatever on everyone.

[liquidformat]

I'm not really seeing how everything gets the +4 from enthrall. I guess you could argue that undead are the antithesis of life, therefore opposed to living creatures, but I'm not really sure that works.

Enthrall first paragraph: 'Any potentially affected creature of a race or religion unfriendly to yours gets a +4 bonus on the saving throw.' pretty much every race is default unfriendly to undead, all good and neutral religions that turn undead are by definition unfriendly to undead. Those two umbrellas cover most everything you are coming across. so that +4 bonus can be seen as a blanket bonus.

+1*. * for uncapped spawn as usual. Incorporealness still makes you more or less immune to nearly all non humanoids. Thats a potent defense at a level where it is still relevant.

Obviously you focus on song, then go from there. +4 to saves is mitigated by your charisma bonus, not great but not terrible. With 2 non abilities you can start with like +9 cha easily enough.

An at will save or suck which you can work around with your party and has potentially infinite range and duration is really, REALLY good.

Bard, Siren, Warlock, DFA, or even binder with ghostly grasp work. So does marshall with anything. Psionics or initator, beguiler or spelltheif, or a scout type class would be fine. Ghostly grasp is kind of a feat tax in most places. Also fixes all your gear issues. Will maybe need nonverbal spell as well but I think thats fine. Permanent tongues so if enemiea have a language they are potentially affected?

I think its an upgrade to any t3 or lower class at that level so I give it that. You have scenarios where your main schtick does not work but thats fine, you are not comparable to a t1 or 2, having limitations is okay.

You seem to be ignoring the Daylight powerlessness, daylight is not even a save or suck for you it is just a suck. Reading the Daylight Powerlessness ability I don't believe simply wearing a thick black cloak with an umbrella will have any affect in negating the ability... It isn't simply whether the natural sunlight touches you it is simply being in the presence of natural sunlight renders you utterly powerless only able to flee to some dark hole. You are literally unable to anything outside during the day. An open current is a hard counter to you.

So, what's the potential T3 Ghost build that's straight-up better than this monster?

again anything that can go out into day light, and anything with abilities not automatically shut down by ~50% of monsters you will come across at level 10+, besides being an enchantment the melody is also language dependent and there are a lot of monsters out there that don't have any language not to mention the need for the chanter to be using the same language as the targets...

What's the workaround, though? There's no immunity on a successful save, so you have to release everyone from the effect, then force everyone to save again next turn. So, you'll just keep starting over, turn after turn, essentially doing nothing, until you get a combination of successes and failures among allies and enemies that you find favorable.

I'm still waffling a bit, but I'm just not convinced that this is going to turn up advantageous in enough situations to really make it worthwhile.

You take a few moments to have them all save at once then do not worry about it just keep it up. As a DM if it is party of the morning buff routine I would hand wave it or just a friend cast magic circle against whatever on everyone.

The standard 'morning buff routine' doesn't work with enchanter specifically because it doesn't give full day immunity but only immunity during the specific song. Which really makes build very important as well as how the dm rules the interaction between a performance and a conversation and what actions you happen to be taking. If you as a chanter are a bard/siren/other bard prc you are literally having a new performance each time you use a different bardic music ability or each time you cast a spell if you have melodic casting feat; that makes you quite dangerous for the party. Also I can easily see the argument that each new conversation is a new performance, which also makes you quite dangerous if the group doesn't use something like drow sign language to mitigate the danger you represent. If you are going stealth to scout or whatever you aren't going to be sneaking around pulling an Elan singing about being stealth, there are multiple points in a day where just by the actions you are taking you will be ending and restarting your performance.

[danielxcutter]

So, what's the potential T3 Ghost build that's straight-up better than this monster?

Probably straight Bard actually.

[Falontani]

I think you are over selling the uselessness of this creature. Daylight powerlessness is indeed terrible. In natural daylight. So you character will only be outside at night, and when your in underground areas and areas specifically built to accompany creatures that don't like daylight, of which there are many.
As an undead creature you are likely to already be in a group with undead and/or necromancers which will understand your weakness and may even share it. Such as a wraith, a shadow, or even to a lesser extent the mighty vampire.
The draining melody. To cease your performance and offer a new save, you must stop performing for a full round. That means more than six seconds. Your character will fully understand the limitations and drawbacks of your own ability. It is simple to stop a bard song and start a new one within the timeframe, granting no new saving throws. It is simple to hum quietly when you aren't saying anything, casting anything, or otherwise performing to continue the saving throw the party already made. And that's if your party isn't straight immune to your ability as you say half of creatures are.
Finally, your ability says on the round after they initially fail. Your whole ability is not enthrall. That would be like building your whole character around the secondary effect of a poison. Your main ability is a save or daze with riders. That you can do passively. That you can restart if you absolutely have to. This effect is a supernatural sonic mind affecting compulsion. Sonic: deaf creatures are immune. Mind affecting: mindless creatures, undead, and constructs are immune. Compulsion: a first level spell grants immunity. Your party will be immune, undead, constructs, and mindless creatures are immune. So by extent, anything that is immune to a beguiler, a t3 class is immune to your abilities. I don't see this as locking the race out. Because past your seemingly only ability is incorporealness, high charisma, good dexterity, decent skills, and immunity to most affects that aren't just damage.

Yes, compare this to the ghost template and it looks like crap. The ghost template is effectively on ur-priest levels compared to our beguiler. Because it has no lost hd. It doesn't have the drawback of sunlight. And it has rejuvenation. I think I can count on one hand the amount of undead templates that will be better than it.

So it doesn't deserve la +3. Does it deserve la+1? That's what we are here for.

[Debatra]

Enthrall first paragraph: 'Any potentially affected creature of a race or religion unfriendly to yours gets a +4 bonus on the saving throw.' pretty much every race is default unfriendly to undead, all good and neutral religions that turn undead are by definition unfriendly to undead. Those two umbrellas cover most everything you are coming across. so that +4 bonus can be seen as a blanket bonus.

Undead is not a religion, and even if it were, just channeling positive energy doesn't mean that a faith has a specific problem with undead. Pelor, Tamara, or some other specific faiths, sure. As for what races are unfriendly, that's going to be a table-by-table thing. Should a follower of those deities get the "I particularly hate undead" bonus? Probably, but then we'd be getting into RAI.

You seem to be ignoring the Daylight powerlessness, daylight is not even a save or suck for you it is just a suck. Reading the Daylight Powerlessness ability I don't believe simply wearing a thick black cloak with an umbrella will have any affect in negating the ability... It isn't simply whether the natural sunlight touches you it is simply being in the presence of natural sunlight renders you utterly powerless only able to flee to some dark hole. You are literally unable to anything outside during the day. An open current is a hard counter to you.

It just says "in natural sunlight". There's no reason to believe the usual tricks won't work. Even if they don't, you're incorporeal. You can hide underground when you don't need direct line of sight/effect to something, and Endure Sunlight is already going to be a "cost of unliving" level feat tax for anything with a big sunlight-related weakness.

The standard 'morning buff routine' doesn't work with enchanter specifically because it doesn't give full day immunity but only immunity during the specific song. Which really makes build very important as well as how the dm rules the interaction between a performance and a conversation and what actions you happen to be taking. If you as a chanter are a bard/siren/other bard prc you are literally having a new performance each time you use a different bardic music ability or each time you cast a spell if you have melodic casting feat; that makes you quite dangerous for the party. Also I can easily see the argument that each new conversation is a new performance, which also makes you quite dangerous if the group doesn't use something like drow sign language to mitigate the danger you represent. If you are going stealth to scout or whatever you aren't going to be sneaking around pulling an Elan singing about being stealth, there are multiple points in a day where just by the actions you are taking you will be ending and restarting your performance.

All of this beyond the first sentence is up for interpretation. You can turn it off and on again until the party all make their saves and then keep it going all day, potentially without issue. For conversation, you could weave what you want to say into your song. Maybe the same with verbal components, and maybe even the same with bard songs (though I feel you have a better argument against with those two).

And even if you can't, creatures that save are protected "unless the chanter ceases singing for one full round"; so this isn't even going to be an issue so long as you remember to keep singing between your spells/performances/conversations.

[Debatra]

Compulsion: a first level spell grants immunity.

Protection from Evil only blocks compulsions that give you some kind of control of the target. It won't work on something that just dazes, or even on Enthrall.

[Blue Jay]

This is definitely a controversial monster, with a wide range of LA votes. And, several of us seem to be voting based on fairly extreme interpretations of Draining Melody. But, I think we can largely agree that the truth of it is probably somewhere in the middle.

In particular, the various perspectives about maintaining the song continuously are really divergent. Some of us seem to think Draining Melody has too many miscellaneous limitations to function reliably, while others seem to think the limitations are entirely trivial. The song has no limits on duration or daily uses, so it technically is possible to keep it going for long periods of time, thereby minimizing the number of saves your party has to make against it and also minimizing how much it cuts into your action economy. Whether it will really be possible to pull off the continuous song in practice is another thing; but it does at least give you some potential.

On the other hand, it still doesn't grant full immunity with a successful save, and you will inevitably be interrupted in some way; so there will still be hiccups and glitches to deal with. It also requires you to commit yourself (at least partially) to a specific tactic, thereby reducing your party's ability to employ alternate tactics (like stealth and diplomacy). I would also argue that it's unlikely you'll be allowed to sing Draining Melody and Bardic Music simultaneously. Plus, Melodic Casting is specific to Bardic Music, so it won't allow you to cast while using Draining Melody; and Silent Spell not only explicitly doesn't work with bard spells, but also has a spell-slot cost. So, these aren't really trivial limitations.

For me personally, I think I have been somewhat underestimating the potential usefulness of Draining Melody and somewhat overestimating its limitations. So, I think I will amend my vote to LA +1* for the crypt chanter. I suspect that we may be headed for that as our average result, anyway.

[AvatarVecna]

[Debatra]

The votes so far:

+2* - 2 (one of which might be argued down to +1)
+1* - 5
-0* - 3

Not going to call it just yet.
Edited to include Caelestion's, Falontani's, and H_H_F_F's votes below.

[Caelestion]

I think I'll settle for LA +1*, myself.

[Falontani]

I don't know if I've actually voted or not, I know I debated, so I figured I should vote. +1*

[H_H_F_F]

This is a tough one. I've given it some thought, and read through the discussions. My original thought was -2*, but I have to concede a lot of the points made by the supporters of the lower side.

I still think it's clearly too strong for +0,* not to speak of -0*. RHD is not too high, incorporeality+great ability boost + potent abilities that can be developed with class levels makes this a strong +1* in my view.

[Debatra]

+1* is pulling away in the vote a bit, and it's been almost 48 hours since anyone has had anything to add to the discussion. Deathlock is up next.

[Debatra]

Deathlock

Size & Type: Medium Undead
HD: 3
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +0, Dex +4, Con -, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +4 - Net +14, no penalties
Natural Armor: 1
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d4)
Skill List: Concentration, Hide, K: Arcana, Listen, Spellcraft, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Infernal, Abyssal)
CR: 3
WotC LA: +3
Our LA: -0

So it's possible for spellcasters to be so powerful that their corpses have enough magical energy in them to become animated on their own. Though it seems most of that power is lost in the process. That, or every third-level wizard has the potential to become one of these things.

All this thing has is +2 turn resistance and a handful of SLAs. At Will Detect Magic, Read Magic, and Inflict Minor Wounds are alright (technically infinite healing I guess). Three per day Cause Fear, Magic Missile, and Summon Monster I are similarly okay. Two daily Death Knells and Ghoul Glyphs are... not impressive. No-save paralysis is nice, but it takes a full minute to set up. CLs are equal to HD, and DCs are Charisma-based.

The obvious progression is Sorcerer to keep those Charisma-based saves high, but then you'd lose 9th-level spells. A wizard with moderate charisma would let you keep your 9ths, but would it really be worth three lost levels? Practiced Spellcaster will make up the CL difference, but that's still a good amount of lost spell slots.

[danielxcutter]

Well the +4 Int does help a little with the spell slots... but yeah.

Also if you really want infinite healing then you can just be a Dread Necromancer with Tomb-Touched Soul or something. There's probably easier ways.

Though if you're really going the undead army route having one of these might not be too bad.

[InvisibleBison]

This looks like a -0 to me. A deathlock is maybe, kinda comparable to a 3rd level sorcerer, but advancement is not in its favor; an 8th level sorcerer blows a deathlock sorcerer 5 out of the water.

[AvatarVecna]

It's hard not to say -0 despite the low HD.