LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[PoeticallyPsyco]

never not take it? Mineralwarrior and feral are +1 and better than this and I still don't take them very often...

Okay, an admitted exaggeration, but I do think it's significantly stronger than a level of a T4 class. That said, it probably isn't up to snuff with 2 levels of a T4 class...

[Lapak]

Underpowered at +2, overpowered at +0 makes this an easy +1.

Yep, this is clearly too strong for +0, but the abilities aren't that much and don't scale either which makes it a hard sell for +2.

+1 for the Half-Vampire. Credit to the artist for making a non-typical-player-race the example creature, though.

[Unavenger]

Another vote for +1. Worth noting is that if you don't intend to use the blood drain, you can just... not take it, and not have the dependency. Unlike a real vampire you also don't have to deal with being killed by an angry river or a star with a god complex.

The template actually seems almost strong at +1, but I think it lands on "Good" strong and not "Overpowered" strong.

[liquidformat]

Another vote for +1. Worth noting is that if you don't intend to use the blood drain, you can just... not take it, and not have the dependency. Unlike a real vampire you also don't have to deal with being killed by an angry river or a star with a god complex.

The template actually seems almost strong at +1, but I think it lands on "Good" strong and not "Overpowered" strong.

Yeah I normally compare to half-dragon for +2 and this thing falls very short of that benchmark.

[Remuko]

I dont think its significantly better than some of the strongest +0s and I wouldnt be against a +0, but I think a weak +1 isnt unreasonable here.

[H_H_F_F]

I'm definitely not comfortable giving this thing a +0, as you're giving up nothing and getting quite a bit. LA +1 seems perfectly reasonable though, and I'll throw in my vote for it.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well, it's pure positive, so +0 doesn't make sense for a template. And the fast healing and ability boost is pretty nice, but even a +1 seems kinda underpowered for the non-abilities it provides. Anyway, +2 would be clearly unuseable, so +1 it is for me

[Thurbane]

Half Vampire

• +2 natural armor.
• Gain a slam attack.
• One of the following:
• - Blood drain: drain 1d4 Con/round by grappling and pinning an opponent.
• - Charm gaze: standard action to Charm Monster on a humanoid or monstrous humanoid within 30 ft. Successful save means immunity for 24 hours.
• - Children of the night: 1/day summon rat swarms, bat swarms, or wolves.
• Blood dependency (if you have blood drain).
• DR 5/silver or magic.
• Fast healing 1, only up to half HP. Kind of like having an inbuilt Dragon Shaman.
• Resist cold 5, electricity 5.
• Str +2, Dex +2, Cha +2: net +6, no penalties.
• +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks.
• Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.

You know, as a DM I've been misreading this all along: I thought it got all 3 special attacks, instead of picking just 1.

As others have noted, it's all plus sides and no penalties (except Blood Dependency, and even that is fairly easy to deal with). Charm Gaze seems to be the obvious choice of special attack, IMHO.

Borderline on this one. It feels like a strong +1 to me (at will Charm Monster, even if it has limits by target type and range, is very strong at lower levels), but a little weak for +2 by the standards of these threads.

I'm voting LA +1.

[NotInventedHere]

Whoops, missed adding my voice to the chorus of -0s for the golems. Not like it made a difference.

+1 for the Half-Vampire. It's all upside, and I like the potential of the Charm Monster gaze, but it's definitely not worth a +2.

[Unavenger]

As others have noted, it's all plus sides and no penalties (except Blood Dependency, and even that is fairly easy to deal with).

I will again note, for the record, that you can just choose not to have the fangs and blood dependency, which come as a package deal, so there's absolutely no drawback to the template unless you willingly accept one.

(EDIT: This is intended to clarify, not as an objection to anything you've said really.)

[Blue Jay]

Re: Golems

I agree with LA -0 for the grave dirt and tombstone golem. I could go either way on the asterisk for the grave dirt golem, but I'm not really sure that the Berserk feature would have any impact on a PC golem, to begin with. If you're playing an intelligent golem, you're likely not under anyone's control anyway, so there's no "breaking free" to be done. Plus, the ability isn't written for PC use, so it doesn't have language like "the golem must attack the nearest creature", so I'm not sure that the description of a Berserk golem's behavior is binding on a PC golem. For a parallel, see the stirge: it says the stirge detaches and flies away after it drains 4 points of Con. I seriously doubt that a PC stirge would be required to follow that behavior pattern, so I'm not sure that a PC golem would be required to follow the Berserk behavior as described.

Spoiler: Side Note: Golem Augments

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Also, as a side note, there is a short article in Dragon #327 that has some augments for golems, which would be useful for a golem PC.

One of the augments lets you remove the Berserk ability by adding 3000 gp to the golem's cost.

Another augment lets you grant it an Intelligence score equal to half your CL (and skill points and feats, but no class skills). That one adds 8000 gp to the golem's cost.

The third augment lets you add a second pair of arms (and two more slams). That one adds 25% to the golem's cost.

--

Regarding Half-Vampire

I agree with Troacctid on this one: it's not enough for LA +2, but it's clearly a lot better than LA +0, so LA +1 is good for the half-vampire.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Re: Golems

I agree with LA -0 for the grave dirt and tombstone golem. I could go either way on the asterisk for the grave dirt golem, but I'm not really sure that the Berserk feature would have any impact on a PC golem, to begin with. If you're playing an intelligent golem, you're likely not under anyone's control anyway, so there's no "breaking free" to be done. Plus, the ability isn't written for PC use, so it doesn't have language like "the golem must attack the nearest creature", so I'm not sure that the description of a Berserk golem's behavior is binding on a PC golem.

Well, "not intended for PC use" and "nebulous ruling that could be exploited and argued either way" in kind of the reason these asterisks were implmented in the first place. Also, "it doesn't say the golem must attack everything"? In this case, it exactly does.

Spoiler: Berserk description for the clay golem

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Berserk (Ex)
When a clay golem enters combat, there is a cumulative 1% chance each round that its elemental spirit breaks free and the golem goes berserk. The uncontrolled golem goes on a rampage, attacking the nearest living creature or smashing some object smaller than itself if no creature is within reach, then moving on to spread more destruction. Once a clay golem goes berserk, no known method can reestablish control.

It's not the golem that breaks free, it's the spirit inside it, and "goes on a rampage" is explicit enough for me.

[Efrate]

+1. Its solid. More than a 0 less than a 2.

[Caelestion]

It's a solid LA +1, I agree. Perhaps a shade too solid, but not +2 levels.

[liquidformat]

So there are four potential feats to pickup to further empower your gaze attack they aren't super powerful but would bump up the gaze attack's power a bit.
Ability Focus (+2 DC)
Piercing Gaze (+30' Range)
Irresistible Gaze (+2 DC)
Pervasive Gaze (25% to be hit with gaze attack even if you diver your eyes)

[danielxcutter]

Also Alluring Veil both works and, well, actually makes a bit more sense compared to Gravetouched Ghoul paralysis.

[liquidformat]

Also Alluring Veil both works and, well, actually makes a bit more sense compared to Gravetouched Ghoul paralysis.

On the other hand, putting a piece of cloth over your eyes seems like an odd way to get a bonus to your gaze attack.

[danielxcutter]

On the other hand, putting a piece of cloth over your eyes seems like an odd way to get a bonus to your gaze attack.

Well yes, but it's still more thematic magic.

[Debatra]

Another easy one at +1. Hooded Pupil is up next.

[Debatra]

Hooded Pupil

A Hooded Pupil Ettin

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any Corporeal Giant or Humanoid
Size & Type: Unchanged
Space/Reach: Unchanged
Hit Dice: Unchanged
Speed: Unchanged
Ability Scores: Str +2, Dex +0, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +6, no penalties
Armor Class: +2 Natural
Skills: +2 to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
CR: +1
WotC LA: +4
Our LA: +1

So these things are supposed to be the mortal students of powerful undead, serving their interests until they are ready to "accept the truth" of necromancy.

In addition to keeping everything they already had, the Hooded Pupil gets two once/day abilities. They can cast Clutch of Orcus (LM pg 63), which is basically a worse version of Hold Person that requires Concentration and a higher spell level in exchange for unlimited duration and 1d3 damage per round. It also targets Fortitude instead of Will. Also once per day, they can drink the blood of an already-wounded living creature if they're either pinned or helpless. Doing so deals two points of Constitution damage.

They gain five resistance to cold and permanent Spider Climb. They also get Alertness, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats. Oddly, the base creature has to meet the prerequisites to get these feats. This is even more odd to mention because none of those feats even have prerequisites.

In some ways, it kinda seems like "Vampire lite" (though less so than the actual Half-Vampire), which is probably why WotC gave this thing a whopping +4 LA.

[InvisibleBison]

A hooded pupil gets a whole bunch of minor benefits and no significant drawbacks - not even roleplay limitations, as there's no restrictions against a hooded pupil who has renounced their master. I think this has to be +1, simply because if it was +0 there'd be no reason not to take it whenever possible.

[Troacctid]

That ettin looks like two orcs in a trenchcoat.

As for the template itself, it looks well within +1 range to me, unless I'm overlooking something.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I mean, if you want the roleplaying challenge of our times, you could play a pacifist Gravedirt Golem who avoids combat at all costs for fear of going insane, but trying to run a pacifist role (party face, maybe? With massive penalties to all soft stats, including -10 CHA?) with this thing would certainly merit the strongest -0 I can imagine.

There are plenty of less-obscure golems that would work for that.

Apparently drinking enough blood can restore certain biological functions to a Vampire. That or a pregnant woman survives a Blood Drain. I'm not even joking, those are the two listed ways of creating one of these things.

Contrast that with mythical dhampirs (who result from vampires just kinda being able to have sex) and probably the best-known pop culture dhampir, Blade (who, depending on the version results either from a vampire killing his mom while she was giving birth or his mom turning into a vampire while pregnant). Maybe it's just me, but having vampires just be able to do sex seems like the best solution if you're not going for some fancy origin story for a specific character.

We gave normal Vampires +3*.

Is +1.5 an option? And what character looks most like half an asterisk? Carets, maybe?

Anyway, it retains any natural weapons it already had, and gets a slam attack that counts as magic for overcoming DR. No negative levels here though. It gets one Special Attack from a list, all of which are nerfed versions of what a full Vampire gets.

I'm curious which one people thinks is best/worst.

• Blood drain seems tricky to pull off, but reducing an enemy's Constitution score is always handy (even if you can't drain them completely, you reduce their HP by an amount roughly equal to their HD), and blood dependency isn't a problem if you have access to weak wildlife. Or your party could be blood donors.
• Charm gaze is handy for social situations, but a bit trickier to use in actual combat. Definitely has the most utility out of the three, which makes it what I'd pick without a second thought.
• Children of the Night gets you an average of 2-3.5 CR 2 creatures to serve you for an hour, and you get a new set each day. Expendable bodies are handy at any level, but this obviously isn't very impressive once low-CR animals stop being helpful in combat.

a star with a god complex.

That is the best description of the Sun I have ever heard.

I'm not really sure that the Berserk feature would have any impact on a PC golem, to begin with. If you're playing an intelligent golem, you're likely not under anyone's control anyway, so there's no "breaking free" to be done.

So, basically, "Berserk doesn't matter because it's going to be removed from PCs"? As it happens, "remove this trait and it's okay" is literally what the asterisk means.

They can cast Clutch of Orcus (LM pg 63), which is basically a worse version of Hold Person that requires Concentration and a higher spell level in exchange for unlimited duration and 1d3 damage per round.

There's a pretty clear limit to how long that spell can last on any target without fast healing or a mildly sadistic cleric "friend".

Also once per day, they can drink the blood of an already-wounded living creature if they're either pinned or helpless. Doing so deals two points of Constitution damage.

This is a very strange ability to limit. It doesn't even heal/give temporary HP!


I'm too late to vote +1 for dhampirs, but I'm just in time to do so for hooded pupils.

[Blue Jay]

Spoiler: Re: Grave Dirt Golem

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Well, "not intended for PC use" and "nebulous ruling that could be exploited and argued either way" in kind of the reason these asterisks were implmented in the first place.

So, basically, "Berserk doesn't matter because it's going to be removed from PCs"? As it happens, "remove this trait and it's okay" is literally what the asterisk means.

Neither of these is accurate. The asterisk is for things that easily create runaway imbalances (like uncapped spawn creation) or things that make it impossible for the monster to function as a PC (like being unable to leave a specific location, like a dryad). And I didn't say that Berserk is going to be removed: I said that, even if it's not removed, it will have no effect.

Also, notice that we've never given an asterisk for a golem's Berserk quality before.

Also, "it doesn't say the golem must attack everything"? In this case, it exactly does.

No, the distinction I'm drawing here is between descriptive and prescriptive language. Descriptive language says, "This is what golems do." Prescriptive language says, "This is what golems must do." There is no prescriptive language in the Berserk quality: it's purely descriptive. Compare it to the language for something like the frenzied berserker's Frenzy ability (Complete Warrior): it says, "During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability... She must then attack the nearest creature." It clearly states that the berserker does not have a choice in the matter. The golem entry does not have that kind of language, so there's technically no requirement for a PC golem to behave as described there.

It's not the golem that breaks free, it's the spirit inside it, and "goes on a rampage" is explicit enough for me.

So you believe that the elemental spirit actually escapes from the golem, and the golem goes on a rampage because of that? I don't think that's accurate. The elemental spirit is the thing that makes the golem animate: so without an elemental spirit bound to it, the golem would be an inanimate object.

The spirit breaks free from its binding, so it is no longer under anyone's control, and it goes on a rampage. But, since a PC golem is already a free agent and not under anyone's control, there's no "breaking free" to be done.

---

The hooded pupil template has always seemed really weird to me. It doesn't seem to have a very strong sense of identity: it's just a small collection of miscellaneous minor bonuses and abilities that are loosely tied to the vague "necromancy" theme. It's clearly a net-positive, so the hooded pupil template gets LA +1; but it's not particularly exciting or useful for anything.

[H_H_F_F]

Also, notice that we've never given an asterisk for a golem's Berserk quality before.

As mentioned in the introduction, one was given to the alchemical golem back in 2018.

No, the distinction I'm drawing here is between descriptive and prescriptive language. Descriptive language says, "This is what golems do." Prescriptive language says, "This is what golems must do." There is no prescriptive language in the Berserk quality: it's purely descriptive. Compare it to the language for something like the frenzied berserker's Frenzy ability (Complete Warrior): it says, "During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability... She must then attack the nearest creature." It clearly states that the berserker does not have a choice in the matter. The golem entry does not have that kind of language, so there's technically no requirement for a PC golem to behave as described there.

I disagree with that reasoning. Prescriptive language is used for frenzy because frenzied breserker is expected to be taken by PC's. Descriptive language is used for the golem because it going Berserk is meant as an event in an encounter, because the writers never imagined the golem as playable. Reading it as meaningless isn't a faithful reading, IMO.

[Caelestion]

A hooded pupil gets a whole bunch of minor benefits and no significant drawbacks - not even roleplay limitations, as there's no restrictions against a hooded pupil who has renounced their master. I think this has to be +1, simply because if it was +0 there'd be no reason not to take it whenever possible.

I think likewise. If something would otherwise be an easy free lunch, then it's LA +1.

[Prime32]

LA +1 for hooded pupil. The special attacks are bizarrely useless, but three bonus feats in a single level (plus monk-appropriate ability bonuses) could be useful if you're building towards martial art masteries.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Permanent spider walk is actually pretty sweet. The feats would be too, if they weren't complete filler (decent quality filler, but still not building towards anything). If the special attacks were more useful or the feats were more powerful/better prerequisites, I'd be tempted to give +2, as-is I think +1 is probably fine.

EDIT: A quick double-check has reminded me spider climb doesn't leave your hands free. Definitely +1.

[H_H_F_F]

I think the CR increase for hooded pupil is spot on. LA +1 is the natural conclusion.

[liquidformat]

I mean they had just finished half vampire and given it such a reasonable LA, then hoody came right after it with basicly the same package but double the LA what the heck! anyways +1 LA

I'm curious which one people thinks is best/worst.

• Blood drain seems tricky to pull off, but reducing an enemy's Constitution score is always handy (even if you can't drain them completely, you reduce their HP by an amount roughly equal to their HD), and blood dependency isn't a problem if you have access to weak wildlife. Or your party could be blood donors.
• Charm gaze is handy for social situations, but a bit trickier to use in actual combat. Definitely has the most utility out of the three, which makes it what I'd pick without a second thought.
• Children of the Night gets you an average of 2-3.5 CR 2 creatures to serve you for an hour, and you get a new set each day. Expendable bodies are handy at any level, but this obviously isn't very impressive once low-CR animals stop being helpful in combat.

I mean seems easy to me Charm>Blood>Children, children of the Night is horrible, you have to wait 2d6 rounds for a small handful of crappy monsters. Blood Drain while potentially useful is tied to grappling which sucks so you either build focused on grapple or go charm gaze....

Charm Gaze also isn't horrible in combat especially if you go up against humanoid beatsticks.