LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[InvisibleBison]

What's going on with that picture? It looks like those houses are in the hulking corpse's shadow, but that would mean that they're tiny.

[Morphic tide]

Behold, hit dice bloat! LA -0 beyond any shadow of a doubt. Nonabilities and RHD-based chassis screw with monster design, move on to the next...

[Thurbane]

Hulking Corpse

Spoiler

Show

• Large Undead (with reach)
• 20 RHD [ouch] (d12hp, poor BAB, 1 good save, 4 skill points/"level")
• 30 ft speed.
• +12 natural armor.
• Bite 1d6 and 2 claws 1d6.
• Improved grab: standard fare for this type of monster.
• Rend: 3d6 + 1.5 x Str bonus on successful grapple check after a hold.
• DR 5/bludgeoning and magic (I would have expecting slashing?)
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Mindless: not sure why this needed to be spelled out - it's standard rules for all creatures with Int --.
• Undead traits.
• Str +16, Con --, Int --, Wis +2, Cha -2: net +16, two non-abilities.
• No skills for RHD.
• Improved Toughness and Power Attack as bonus feats.

Large humanoid in form, no ability to speak listed.

Big, basic bruiser, that will need to somehow get Int to be playable. Awaken Undead would be interesting - what base creature was the thing before it was Undead, since that sets a cap on it's Int score???

This thing gets nothing to start near epic levels, and will lag behind even a simple Fighter 20, even once it gets an Int score.

Easy LA -0 here. Would be interesting to rate at significantly less HD. Even at 10RHD I might struggle to call this a +0. Part of me wants to make a Hulking Corpse War Hulk/Hulking Hurler just for giggles.

P.S From the art, was I the only one expecting this to be Colossal, or at least Huge? At CR 9, I think I'd rather use a Corpse Creature stone giant, or some other kind of giant with Zombie template.

[edit] Obviously not...

What's going on with that picture? It looks like those houses are in the hulking corpse's shadow, but that would mean that they're tiny.

Well, technically they can be advanced by HD up to bigger sizes...I guess. [/edit]

[Efrate]

Big surprise -0. Onward!

[NotInventedHere]

Clearly such a monstrous and powerful creature needs its 20 undead RHD augmented by a full LA +20.

Or maybe a -0 will do fine.

[Lapak]

-0 on the Hulkster. (And thank you, Thurbane, that made my day.)

I was assuming the tiny-houses issue was a perspective problem. They're waaaay off in the distance, see.

[GreatWyrmGold]

What's going on with that picture? It looks like those houses are in the hulking corpse's shadow, but that would mean that they're tiny.

Three possibilities come to mind:

1. The artist was on a tight deadline and accidentally screwed up the perspective.
2. The artist wasn't told how big the monster actually is.
3. A necromancer is attacking the village's dollhouse storage.

• Mindless: not sure why this needed to be spelled out - it's standard rules for all creatures with Int --.

If the hulking corpse gained an Intelligence score by some method that let it keep its special qualities, would it (by RAW) maintain the mindless quality and accompanying immunity to mind-affecting effects (and lack of skill points)?

[Tzardok]

If the hulking corpse gained an Intelligence score by some method that let it keep its special qualities, would it (by RAW) maintain the mindless quality and accompanying immunity to mind-affecting effects (and lack of skill points)?

As "Mindless" doesn't have it's own entry in the glossary of my Monster Manual, but only in the description of "Non-Abilities, Intelligence", I would assume that it is an "if and only if" property. In short, if you gain an Int score, you aren't mindless any more.

[GreatWyrmGold]

As "Mindless" doesn't have it's own entry in the glossary of my Monster Manual, but only in the description of "Non-Abilities, Intelligence", I would assume that it is an "if and only if" property. In short, if you gain an Int score, you aren't mindless any more.

Ah, but the hulking corpse doesn't just have an Intelligence non-ability, it specifically has the "Mindless (Ex)" special quality, unlike (I believe) every other Int — creature in the game.

[Tzardok]

Ah, but the hulking corpse doesn't just have an Intelligence non-ability, it specifically has the "Mindless (Ex)" special quality, unlike (I believe) every other Int — creature in the game.

If the mindlessness is written directly into the qualities, does that mean that it's impossible to make it have an Int score?

[Troacctid]

Three possibilities come to mind:

1. The artist was on a tight deadline and accidentally screwed up the perspective.
2. The artist wasn't told how big the monster actually is.
3. A necromancer is attacking the village's dollhouse storage.

Don't forget "The art was originally intended for a different monster."

[Beni-Kujaku]

Weird perspective indeed, but I think most of it is due to the weird shadow. I think the art didn't initially include houses, then they added the houses after they had already made a cool low-angle, dusk-y shadow. So they added the houses in the background, but now the shadow seems to be bigger than the village.

Anyway, obvious -0 is obvious, this is little more than a big zombie.

If the hulking corpse gained an Intelligence score by some method that let it keep its special qualities, would it (by RAW) maintain the mindless quality and accompanying immunity to mind-affecting effects (and lack of skill points)?

And that... Is both interesting and very weird. I wonder what was in the mind of the creators when they wrote this. I don't think it is a typo, since none of the other mindless creatures of the same book have it. Is it possible that this undead was specifically created to be resistant to Awakening? All its description says is that it shambles and kills everything it sees, and that it is very difficult to control, but that is probably because few clerics are epic enough to take control of a 20-HD undead. To make matters worse, it doesn't exist in other editions (and mindlessness itself doesn't exist in 5e, to add insult to injury), so we'll probably never know whatever they wanted to do with this monster.

[Blue Jay]

If the hulking corpse gained an Intelligence score by some method that let it keep its special qualities, would it (by RAW) maintain the mindless quality and accompanying immunity to mind-affecting effects (and lack of skill points)?

I mean, it's undead, so it's immune to mind-affecting anyway.

But still LA -0 for the hulking corpse.

[H_H_F_F]

I feel like more than 24 hours shouldn't be wasted on this kind of monster... Should we move on?

For the future: I don't know how everyone else feels about this, or whether or not it was discussed before, so I'm just throwing it out there: I'd be perfectly comfortable letting the showrunner call "super obvious -0" monsters immidiately, with an option for anyone to ask to reopen the case within, say, a week. If someone asks to open the case, we do our usual voting. If not, it just keeps the -0 rating.

Seems like a real time saver for cases like this one, which aren't too rare.

[Blue Jay]

I feel like more than 24 hours shouldn't be wasted on this kind of monster... Should we move on?

For the future: I don't know how everyone else feels about this, or whether or not it was discussed before, so I'm just throwing it out there: I'd be perfectly comfortable letting the showrunner call "super obvious -0" monsters immidiately, with an option for anyone to ask to reopen the case within, say, a week. If someone asks to open the case, we do our usual voting. If not, it just keeps the -0 rating.

Seems like a real time saver for cases like this one, which aren't too rare.

I don't think saving time is a terribly important issue. We've been moving pretty quickly through this book --- too quickly for me to keep up in some cases, in fact --- so I don't have any complaints about the pace, personally.

I think it's better to let a discussion go a little bit longer than 24 hours, because not everyone can post every day. Plus, I don't really want to pressure Debatra to maintain a rapid pace: leading the thread is already enough of a responsibility as is, and I don't want to burn him out; so I'm happy to let him post on his schedule.

[H_H_F_F]

I don't think saving time is a terribly important issue. We've been moving pretty quickly through this book --- too quickly for me to keep up in some cases, in fact --- so I don't have any complaints about the pace, personally.

I think it's better to let a discussion go a little bit longer than 24 hours, because not everyone can post every day. Plus, I don't really want to pressure Debatra to maintain a rapid pace: leading the thread is already enough of a responsibility as is, and I don't want to burn him out; so I'm happy to let him post on his schedule.

Oh, for sure. First thing first, I only meant that the last 24 hours seemed like enough for Hulking Corpse (and otgers like it), given how unlikely it is anyone would think it deserves better than a -0. That led me to the idea of semi-skipping "obviously -0" monsters. I never meant to say discussions should generally be limited to 24 hours.

Debatra can keep at whatever pace he'd like, of course, and his work is appreciated.

[Thurbane]

I figured out the art - it's a attacking a town of Petals or Jermlaine! Although even they may not be small enough for that scale. Do Shimmerlings have towns?

Just re-checked the HD advancement as well - they can only go up to Huge...

[Beni-Kujaku]

I feel like more than 24 hours shouldn't be wasted on this kind of monster... Should we move on?

For the future: I don't know how everyone else feels about this, or whether or not it was discussed before, so I'm just throwing it out there: I'd be perfectly comfortable letting the showrunner call "super obvious -0" monsters immidiately, with an option for anyone to ask to reopen the case within, say, a week. If someone asks to open the case, we do our usual voting. If not, it just keeps the -0 rating.

Seems like a real time saver for cases like this one, which aren't too rare.

It would be, if the goal of the thread was only to give a list of LA. However, I quite enjoy, and I believe others do as well, discussing on the monster apart from its power level alone. If we had skipped to the next creature, we wouldn't have had the conversation on the artwork artists' work conscience, or the point on in having Mindlessness on top of being mindless.

I think a 24h, or at least 12h-delay between two monsters is preferable to let anyone post a comment if they so want.

[Thurbane]

It would be, if the goal of the thread was only to give a list of LA. However, I quite enjoy, and I believe others do as well, discussing on the monster apart from its power level alone. If we had skipped to the next creature, we wouldn't have had the conversation on the artwork artists' work conscience, or the point on in having Mindlessness on top of being mindless.

I think a 24h, or at least 12h-delay between two monsters is preferable to let anyone post a comment if they so want.

^^ Agreed.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It would be, if the goal of the thread was only to give a list of LA. However, I quite enjoy, and I believe others do as well, discussing on the monster apart from its power level alone. If we had skipped to the next creature, we wouldn't have had the conversation on the artwork artists' work conscience, or the point on in having Mindlessness on top of being mindless.

I like having better LA's to look at, but the discussion between monsters is my favorite part of the thread. And while I for one have no trouble talking about monsters we've already passed, if everyone had to do that for e.g. the hulking corpse we wouldn't have nearly as much (or as clean) discussion.

[Debatra]

The only reason it hadn't been called already is that I happened to have work at the 24-hour mark. Regardless of how obvious a monster's rating is, I have an unofficial rule to not post more than one creature in a 24-hour period just in case something gets brought up. (Plus, as others have said, it's usually fun to just have the conversation.) Heck, I even put -0 right in the OP and archive for the Hulking Corpse (and one or two other really bad monsters) when I originally posted it.

As for why it's taking quite this long... What can I say, I was tired after work so I figured it could wait a few more hours. -0. Moving on.

[Debatra]

I wanted to wait for the actual first of the month to do this, but I don't feel like the additional few days delay would be worth it and we're already there alphabetically. Mummified Creature tomorrow.

---

Human

Size & Type: Medium Humanoid (Human)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 1
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +0, Dex +0, Con +0, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +0, no penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: N/A
Skill List: By class
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common)
CR: 1
WotC LA: +0
Our LA: __

Humans are overall fairly vanilla at first glance, with no huge stat boosts or crazy special abilities. An extra skill point each level (multiplied at first-level as well) is decent, but where these things really shine is their bonus feat. Any feat that you can qualify for at first-level is yours for the taking. Combine that with a complete lack of any particular weaknesses and you'll understand why this jack-of-all-trades is often considered to be one of the best races for normal play. It's decent for just about any build that doesn't require some specific niche thing (and several that do). But does that same versatility bring it up to +1 territory? Or does the lack of stats and abilities mean it's been power crept, perhaps even down to -0?

[GreatWyrmGold]

As for why it's taking quite this long... What can I say, I was tired after work so I figured it could wait a few more hours.

Such is life for 99% of the world. I wish it wasn't that way, but this isn't the place to discuss solutions to socioeconomic issues. This is the place to discuss solutions to one very specific issues, and also make stupid jokes about attacking the dollhouse factory.

I wanted to wait for the actual first of the month to do this, but I don't feel like the additional few days delay would be worth it and we're already there alphabetically.

...guess I can't argue with that logic. Though this really does feel April Foolsey.

[Troacctid]

Human is a great benchmark for +0 LA. It's basically the gold standard.

If you're power-creeping monster races to the point where human feels like a -0, something has gone horribly wrong.

[Falontani]

ya know, they really only get that extra skill and a bonus feat. Is that really worth LA +0? I mean you could play a Water Orc and get a bunch of stuff for physical combat, or play a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold and get a huge bonus to your mental stats. Changeling usually edges out human in the flexibility department due to the feat Racial Emulation, and with Changeling Rogue you can easily beat them in the skill point department. I find it hilarious that Humans get a bonus feat, is it just to copy Half Elf Paragon? Anyways, with human you won't be better than anyone at any particular thing, but I won't lie, that bonus feat does really help its case. I don't think I can justify a LA of -0, but since Water Orc, Kobold, and Changeling all got LA +0, and this isn't better than any of them, I can't say its worth LA +1. So I think Human is stuck at LA +0.

[NotInventedHere]

Human

Spoiler: Image

Show

I'm assuming you're using this particular image because of its association with Yahtzee and Zero Punctuation, but you might be interested to know that apparently it's originally from photographer Thomas Ruff, specifically his 'Portraits' series.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Ruff#Portraits
https://www.phillips.com/detail/thom...f/NY010610/505

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well, humans are basically what the whole power system is based upon, as the most basic of base races. More given builds for any classes in the various books are humans than any other race. If it was +1, then everything else should get a LA -1 or a power buff if it was already LA 0. If it was -0, then everything else should get LA +1 to restore the balance. Humans are designed as being good all-around, but never broken, and I think that's one of the few things that WotC did perfectly in terms of power balance. +0 for the human. Hooray for us.

[Luccan]

Don't forget the incredible human abilities of Favored Class: Any and being allowed to choose any language as a bonus language.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Don't forget the incredible human abilities of Favored Class: Any and being allowed to choose any language as a bonus language.

Any language!!? That's incredible! Surely that will bump it to +1 in no time!

More seriously, I'm not sure, does that count secret languages like druid? Or languages that should not be spoken with a human tongue, like Aboleth or Gnoll languages?

[Unavenger]

Are we even sure that humans can even grab and use weapons? Like, the pictures on PHB 12-13 show them as having some kind of hand or claw, but it's not clear from the picture that they can really grab with them.