LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Debatra]

I wonder why you lose movement speed though. I know Dex and movement speed aren't tied together, but I wonder how you'd be considerably slower than in life while still being nimble enough to dodge things.

Because the standard Mummy only has a 20' land speed. Why that originally was, I do not know.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

+2 It has a LOT going for it. Need fire res/evasion to be extra safe, but flat DR makes up huge for the HP. A ton of goodies for being a bit slower and dumb. Bunch of strength and NA, wis and cha that is respectable, and your despair. Which might be workable with dread witch? It is a fear effect correct?

Sadly, Dread Witch's class features specifically boost fear spells.

Also, RE Dragonscale Husk, that doesn't stack with racial features (or, in fact, just about anything).

[Troacctid]

I wonder why you lose movement speed though. I know Dex and movement speed aren't tied together, but I wonder how you'd be considerably slower than in life while still being nimble enough to dodge things.

Dex and movement speed aren't tied together, but your legs probably will be if you try and run too fast with all those bandages dangling from them!

[danielxcutter]

Dex and movement speed aren't tied together, but your legs probably will be if you try and run too fast with all those bandages dangling from them!

Okay, you got me there.

[Remuko]

the paralyze thing and the undead immunities is probably worth a +1, but i think the downsides like turning susceptibility and the fire weakness cancel out most of the other upsides. I'm really hard pressed to see how this is worth +2. Its a strong +1 but idk, some mediocre stat bonuses, most of which wont be used, puny DR, a useless disease i just dont think it has a lot of upsides and the fire weakness and undead specific stuff is enough for me to say its not worth another +1.

my vote is: (a strong) +1

[danielxcutter]

Eh, it's not too hard to get your turning resistance high enough to not get Commanded by anything short of an Atropal.

The Int penalty probably isn't too much of a problem in term of optimization, but I never really feel that inclined to have an Int penalty on my characters in general. Also you're not really going to have much in terms of skill points, which is annoying even in the best case scenario.

[Thurbane]

Because the standard Mummy only has a 20' land speed. Why that originally was, I do not know.

Probably to represent the slow, plodding Boris Karloff-type mummy.

[Caelestion]

A corpse that has been tightly wrapped in bandages is unlikely to be sprinting around its tomb.

[Lapak]

A corpse that has been tightly wrapped in bandages is unlikely to be sprinting around its tomb.

To be fair, a corpse tightly wrapped in bandages is also unlikely to be plodding around its tomb. It's magic! :D

[danielxcutter]

The question is how a corpse wrapped in bandages still keeps its Dex... oh right magic.

[Tzardok]

The question is how a corpse wrapped in bandages still keeps its Dex... oh right magic.

Mummies are the Ancient Egyptians minmaxing for the afterlife. See for yourself which traits they valued and which they dumped.

[danielxcutter]

Mummies are the Ancient Egyptians minmaxing for the afterlife. See for yourself which traits they valued and which they dumped.

Everyone needs skill points though.

[Tzardok]

Everyone needs skill points though.

That's what Ushabti are for.

Edit: I'll agree with +2.

[Caelestion]

Mummies have lower intelligence because their brains were scraped out through their nostrils.

[danielxcutter]

Mummies have lower intelligence because their brains were scraped out through their nostrils.

Liches and ghosts don't exactly have brains either though.

[Caelestion]

Ghosts don't have bodies, full stop!

[danielxcutter]

Ghosts don't have bodies, full stop!

That was the joke, yes.

[No brains]

I have no brains and I must scream.

[liquidformat]

Mummies are the Ancient Egyptians minmaxing for the afterlife. See for yourself which traits they valued and which they dumped.

Mummies have lower intelligence because their brains were scraped out through their nostrils.

I mean if we are jumping down this rabbit hole why would removing your brain give you a bonus to wis but a penalty to int. having no brains doesn't seem particularly wise to me...

I have no brains and I must scream.

And No brains for the win!

Anyways this seems like a high +1 low +2 to me. Taking a hit to int is always crappy and makes it a headache to qualify for PRCs much less a -4 hit which makes things like orc undesirable. Also being vulnerable to the most common damage type out there is always a great path to victory, oh wait no no it is horrible. And Finally we have to worry about permanently becoming a slave to people with a dead thing fetish, sure there is a lot out there to boost your turn resistance but you still need to heavily invest into something normal characters don't have to ever worry about. It is also of note that you are most likely taking this template as a beatstick and so you are taking an HP hit compared to your ton temporaries. And what are you getting for this price tag, maybe +10 NA (which has enough of a cavoite to be obnoxious to optimize) some ability boosts that become moot after level 10ish and a fear mind affecting ability that starts to also suck around level 10.

Honestly if you are taking this template pre level 10 in a game that only goes to level 10 or so I think this is reasonably +2. However, if you are taking this template after level 10 or in a game going to level 15+ I think it is somewhere between +0 and -0. Since we can't take LA buyoff into account I think +1 LA seems reasonable here since the usefulness of this template drops off pretty quickly in games going past level 10.

[Caelestion]

Well, given that so many games never make it to low teens, let alone anything else, LA +2 seems by far the fairer choice to me.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I mean if we are jumping down this rabbit hole why would removing your brain give you a bonus to wis but a penalty to int. having no brains doesn't seem particularly wise to me...

And No brains for the win!

Anyways this seems like a high +1 low +2 to me. Taking a hit to int is always crappy and makes it a headache to qualify for PRCs much less a -4 hit which makes things like orc undesirable. Also being vulnerable to the most common damage type out there is always a great path to victory, oh wait no no it is horrible. And Finally we have to worry about permanently becoming a slave to people with a dead thing fetish, sure there is a lot out there to boost your turn resistance but you still need to heavily invest into something normal characters don't have to ever worry about. It is also of note that you are most likely taking this template as a beatstick and so you are taking an HP hit compared to your ton temporaries. And what are you getting for this price tag, maybe +10 NA (which has enough of a cavoite to be obnoxious to optimize) some ability boosts that become moot after level 10ish and a fear mind affecting ability that starts to also suck around level 10.

Honestly if you are taking this template pre level 10 in a game that only goes to level 10 or so I think this is reasonably +2. However, if you are taking this template after level 10 or in a game going to level 15+ I think it is somewhere between +0 and -0. Since we can't take LA buyoff into account I think +1 LA seems reasonable here since the usefulness of this template drops off pretty quickly in games going past level 10.

This is an acquired template, which means somebody created you, which means most likely desecrate and/or corpsecrafter, so the hit to HP is not that much. Also, this is more valuable for a cleric or a swordsage, to use these bonuses to Wis and Cha, so this is even less. And I know the problems with the Undead subtype, but it still needs an opponent with twice your HD to have a chance to control you. This is not trivial. And being undead has far more advantages than flaws. It is quite easier to increase your turning resistance than it is to become immune to Death effects and mental attacks. The fire vulnerability sucks, yes, and a ring of Fire immunity 1/day is 23 760 gp, which is a lot at lower levels, but having a chance, not that bad of one, to instantly win pretty much any fight with your aura of fear, plus stat boosts and being a pain in the ass to kill (DR 5 and 10 NA? Count me out) for mundanes really accounts for something.

And the argument of sucking above 15th level can be applied to every template, and every monster in existence. Of course a straight bonus will never be equivalent to square-scaling class levels. I think the monsters here are supposed to be played at their ECL, or maybe 2 to 4 levels above, not at level 20 for monsters that have 3 RHD. Templates are the same, they are supposed to be played at low to mid-level, not above 14, at least not without LA payoff (that's exactly why LA payoff was introduced, because almost no templates or monster bonuses can keep up with losing a level of class feature). I think +2 fits way better the mummified than a +1. Do you imagine something like that with one class level in a level 2 party? Yeah, me neither.

[danielxcutter]

Assuming "has Desecrate and Corpsecrafter" is... not exactly what we assume for this thread. New here?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Assuming "has Desecrate and Corpsecrafter" is... not exactly what we assume for this thread. New here?

I am, thanks for asking. However, that changes little to the point. It does reduce your HP but gives you so many defensive abilities that I the result is still harder to kill in general. And that doesn't change the fact that undead is generally more of a boon than it is a curse, with all the immunities it provides. Even more if you are a caster (you will use the mummy's strength less, but +4 to Wis and Cha amount to a lot still). Nor does it change the fact that ou will very rarely go above level 12 in a game, and that almost any LA loses its meaning up there.

Unrelated: I wonder how we consider acquired templates like this that have an Int penalty, but explicitly say that the character retains its skill points, since gaining the template late, when you have already started prestige classing becomes very different from gaining it early.

[liquidformat]

This is an acquired template, which means somebody created you, which means most likely desecrate and/or corpsecrafter, so the hit to HP is not that much. Also, this is more valuable for a cleric or a swordsage, to use these bonuses to Wis and Cha, so this is even less. And I know the problems with the Undead subtype, but it still needs an opponent with twice your HD to have a chance to control you. This is not trivial. And being undead has far more advantages than flaws. It is quite easier to increase your turning resistance than it is to become immune to Death effects and mental attacks. The fire vulnerability sucks, yes, and a ring of Fire immunity 1/day is 23 760 gp, which is a lot at lower levels, but having a chance, not that bad of one, to instantly win pretty much any fight with your aura of fear, plus stat boosts and being a pain in the ass to kill (DR 5 and 10 NA? Count me out) for mundanes really accounts for something.

And the argument of sucking above 15th level can be applied to every template, and every monster in existence. Of course a straight bonus will never be equivalent to square-scaling class levels. I think the monsters here are supposed to be played at their ECL, or maybe 2 to 4 levels above, not at level 20 for monsters that have 3 RHD. Templates are the same, they are supposed to be played at low to mid-level, not above 14, at least not without LA payoff (that's exactly why LA payoff was introduced, because almost no templates or monster bonuses can keep up with losing a level of class feature). I think +2 fits way better the mummified than a +1. Do you imagine something like that with one class level in a level 2 party? Yeah, me neither.

You actually bring up an interesting point, since this is an acquired template and you are made there is actually a cost associated with your creation. Assuming that you are made through Create Undead that would mean you need at least a level 15 cleric's services which would put the cost at 900+50xHDgp as the min cost assuming we aren't including spell. Desecrate adds in another 300gp min and I think their is also addon for having someone with a specific feat like corpsecraft but afb and don't specifically remember. For straight mummy we can assume you have to be level 3 min (technically level 5 if we are going with +2 LA, because of the LA I am always confused how that works for mid game acquisition, every game I have played always just dumped the LA for midgame templating) Anyways I think it is safe to say you will be in a level 4 or 5 party before you can actually take this template. So that means we can ignore levels 1-3 as they are not actually playable for this template do to 'acquisition cost'. So if we are assuming you want to acquire the template in a desecrated zone with by a character with corpsecrafting ignoring your current HD that is already somewhere around 1500gp which would push you to having min ECL 4 (1600gp at +2 or 1650 at +1).

In this case +1 LA still seems right to me, +1 LA is worth while up to level 14 ish whereas +2 isn't worth it after you hit 10. Again for those pointing out LA buyoff for +2 LA that should have no bases in your rating as it isn't part of the rules we are using in this endeavor.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Because the standard Mummy only has a 20' land speed. Why that originally was, I do not know.

Same reason zombies move slowly—because they move slowly in old horror movies. (Much older for mummies, but same idea.)

Dex and movement speed aren't tied together, but your legs probably will be if you try and run too fast with all those bandages dangling from them!

Also this.

[Blue Jay]

Unrelated: I wonder how we consider acquired templates like this that have an Int penalty, but explicitly say that the character retains its skill points, since gaining the template late, when you have already started prestige classing becomes very different from gaining it early.

Generally speaking, the game doesn't ask you to retroactively alter skill points. There are a few templates that do, but since the 3.5 revision, those templates generally fall into one of two categories: (1) templates that make the creature mindless (e.g., skeleton and zombie); or (2) templates that are most likely to retroactively increase your skill points (e.g., half-celestial, half-dragon, etc). So, applying a template should rarely (if ever) revoke a previous PrC qualification.

--

I think I'll vote conservatively for LA +2 for the Mummified Creature template. At LA +1, I think it has too much to offer for 1HD creatures, and too few drawbacks to balance it out. LA +2 is enough of a cost to make you carefully consider the tradeoffs; but it's not so burdensome as to make it completely unappealing.

[Debatra]

And the Mummified Creature gets +2. Murk is up next.

[Debatra]

Murk

Size & Type: Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 3
Speed: Fly 30' (Good) - The book says 30' and eight squares. This was fixed in the errata.
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +4, Con -, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +4, one penalty
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: Incorporeal Touch (1d6 Wisdom damage)
Skill List: Hide, Listen, Search, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 3
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0* (Uncapped Spawn Ability)

These things don't really have much going for them. All they have is a touch attack that deals 1d6 Wisdom damage. If they bring a creature to 0 Wisdom, they give it a negative level and gain five temporary HP (ten if the final hit was a crit) that last up to an hour. This also satiates its Inescapable Craving for Wisdom and Life Force, respectively.

But the kicker? If it gives a negative level to a creature with only one HD, the victim dies and rises as a Murk under the control of its killer in 1d4 rounds. It specifies "a 1 HD creature" though, possibly implying that a Murk's negative levels don't stack with each other, but more likely meaning that the editor didn't think of the possibility that a creature could be healed from zero Wisdom and then brought back down. This is especially egregious because the Murk's only attack is to deal Wisdom damage. Regardless, give it an asterisk.

[InvisibleBison]

I think the murk is -0*. A murk PC is almost certainly going to be the only one doing Wisdom damage, and it can't do enough to bring down a foe before the rest of the party kills it via HP damage. Moreover, the obvious progression is rogue (Dex bonus, Hide as a racial skill, two nonabilities let you get a decent Int even with the penalty), but since its attack doesn't do any HP damage I don't think it can make sneak attacks.

[Troacctid]

Moreover, the obvious progression is rogue (Dex bonus, Hide as a racial skill, two nonabilities let you get a decent Int even with the penalty), but since its attack doesn't do any HP damage I don't think it can make sneak attacks.

It can. The extra damage is negative energy damage. You can also just use a weapon; who plays incorporeal creatures without taking Ghostly Grasp, right?

Really the main question here is, what is it worth to be an incorporeal undead, with all the benefits and drawbacks thereof? The inescapable craving is a non-issue (just eat some chickens) and the Wisdom damage is a gimmick. I personally think that it would be worth a solid +1 LA and +0 HD on its own. Murk is basically that, but with some ability modifiers and a Wisdom damage attack thrown in. It's like Ghost Lite. If you could get that for only +2 HD and +0 LA, I think it would be a slam dunk for non-casters of all stripes. It's a lot of immunities.

I think ECL 3 is more than fair for this monster. I put it at +0* LA.