LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[danielxcutter]

Skin Kite

Ew. Also redundant.

[Debatra]

Skin Kite

Size & Type: Small Undead
Space/Reach: 2.5'/0' (This has not been errata'd.)
HD: 4
Speed: 10', Fly 40' (Average)
Ability Scores: Str +0, Dex +8, Con -, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -4 - Net +0, two penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: One Primary Touch (1d4, note this is separate from the 1d4 Charisma damage of its Steal Skin ability)
Skill List: Hide, Listen, Spot
Body Shape: "A skin kite has no body, only a wingspan"
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 3
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0* (Uncapped Spawn Ability)

Another small-sized grappler, so soon after the last?

So... these things have the fastest, easiest to use spawning ability I've ever seen. So much so, that I'm tempted to create a separate thread to discuss how insanely fast the skin kite population would explode if not checked. If we get sidetracked here, I may just do so. In order to use its Launch Kite ability, the Skin Kite must:

1. Hit with a melee touch attack, so it can use its Meld and Steal Skin abilities on its prey. (described later in this entry)
2. Deal a grand total of 4 points of Charisma damage. No noted limit on a timeframe or that it must be dealt to one target. It deals 1d4 Charisma damage, so this could be as little as one round.
3. Detach itself and take a single full-round action to create the new Skin Kite.

So on average, a new Skin Kite can be created every three rounds (not counting travel time to find new victims or the exponential growth). No mention is made of control. Get some Naberius Binders in here and let's have a party. Easy asterisk.

As for it's non-ridiculous abilities, Meld functions as an odd reversal of the standard Improved Grab, being usable on creatures of Small size or larger. It also doesn't seem to need an actual check to establish the grapple. They have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks. Since text trumps table, the "while attached" clause in the statblock doesn't actually apply. A Melded Skin Kite can be removed by pinning it, which also deals 1d6 damage to it. For every round a Skin Kite is Melded, its victim takes 1d4 Charisma damage with its Steal Skin ability. This is also how it feeds its Diet Dependency of skin. It is unclear whether or not this includes the round in which the meld is established, like Constrict does. There is no requirement listed for the victim to be alive.

A Skin Kite detaches itself after dealing four points of Charisma damage so it can go Launch a new Kite. Presumably, it could just choose to not do this.

This thing reads as if they copypasted the stirge and then forgot to chang some details. What RHD and LA had the stirge again?

Holy crap, they almost literally did. Except Stirges deal Con damage and aren't damaged by getting removed via pin (and don't have a spawn ability). Same skill list, same feats, same speeds, same +12 to grappling that Text Trumps Table makes apply to everything despite a "when attached" clause in the statblock; their ability scores are even mostly the same. That also explains the space/reach issue as being one of the things they forgot to change while copy/pasting. One Magical Beast HD got a -0 back then.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Okay, now this is a grappler! +12 racial bonus, no size limit, and no opposed check mean that you aren't hard-countered by either giant enemies or freedom of movement (FoM beneficiaries can still break out automatically, but it requires an action on their turn). And I don't think teleportation can dislodge you, either, because you're now part of their body.

What's that worth, on top of 4 bad RHD? Not a clue.

[Tzardok]

This thing reads as if they copypasted the stirge and then forgot to change some details. What RHD and LA had the stirge again?

[danielxcutter]

Er, would I be wrong if I said that the turbo-spawning is half the point of these things as encounters? I suppose Cha drain is fairly strong, but there doesn’t seem that much besides that?

[Beni-Kujaku]

It would be pretty interesting to have a skin kite with its spawn, but the spawns can't create spawn themselves, and die after 10 min/1 hour/1 day. Would that have an influence in combat?

Edit: and prevent creating more than one spawn per person. I see you, Naberius abusers, and you still only have one skin to animate.

[remetagross]

Even disregarding their spawning ability, these guys are nasty.

4 HDs is a smallish price to pay for undead immunities, and flight. Flight at low ECLs will easily bypasse whole dungeons or encounters.
Apart from that, Meld works on a melee touch attack, so is practically guaranteed to go through, and since it does not require a grapple check, even FoM can't protect you against that as PoeticallyPsycho mentioned. The charisma damage seems to be a nonaction to activate? Also, does it have to detach itself once 4 points of Cha damage have been dealt?

Small size, Dex +8 and Wis+2 would make for a darn fine Swordsage. I vote LA +1 for the skin kite.

[Remuko]

Im not impressed. I'm gonna wait to see some more peoples thoughts before leaving a rating.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm voting LA: -0* for the skin kite. Its inherent offensive abilities are extremely lackluster, and it doesn't have any good build paths. It can't wield weapons, and it has a reach of 0 feet, so martial builds aren't viable; on the other hand, 4 racial hit dice with no useful features preclude it from being an effective caster.

[Troacctid]

I agree with remetagross for the most part. Honestly, grappling without having to pass a grapple check is kind of absurd, and I'd even say it would be worth giving most 4 HD creatures +2 LA, maybe more. However, I think the big drawback is that your unusual body shape limits your ability to use gear. Skin kites are definitely headless and legless, and could be considered fingerless as well. This cuts you off from 4–6 magic item slots, to say nothing of your inability to effectively wield weapons or wear most kinds of armor.

That said, the grapple ability plus the Cha damage can be an extremely lethal combo, and I think this is easily powerful enough for +1* LA.

I'm voting LA: -0 for the skin kite. Its inherent offensive abilities are extremely lackluster, and it doesn't have any good build paths. It can't wield weapons, and it has a reach of 0 feet, so martial builds aren't viable; on the other hand, 4 racial hit dice with no useful features preclude it from being an effective caster.

Where's your imagination? I can think of at least half a dozen viable classes just off the top of my head.

[InvisibleBison]

Where's your imagination? I can think of at least half a dozen viable classes just off the top of my head.

What classes, pray tell?

[Troacctid]

Just off the top of my head? Fighter, warblade, crusader, swordsage, monk, ur-priest, psychic warrior. I'm sure I could come up with more.

[Debatra]

The biggest issues I'd say are the body type and the 0' reach.

This thing reads as if they copypasted the stirge and then forgot to chang some details. What RHD and LA had the stirge again?

Holy crap, they almost literally did. Except Stirges deal Con damage and aren't damaged by getting removed via pin (and don't have a spawn ability). Same skill list, same feats, same speeds, same +12 to grappling that Text Trumps Table makes apply to everything despite a "when attached" clause in the statblock; their ability scores are even mostly the same. That also explains the space/reach issue as being one of the things they forgot to change while copy/pasting. One Magical Beast HD got a -0 back then.

The charisma damage seems to be a nonaction to activate?

Correct, the damage is simply dealt each round you remain Melded.

Also, does it have to detach itself once 4 points of Cha damage have been dealt?

A skin kite steals portions of its foe’s skin, absorbing them directly into itself, dealing 1d4 points of Charisma damage in each round when it remains melded. Once it has dealt 4 points of Charisma damage, it detaches and flies off to launch a kite. If its victim reaches Charisma 0 before a skin kite has dealt 4 points of Charisma damage, the skin kite unmelds and seeks a new target.

By the strictest reading of RAW, technically yes. Whether or not that stands with Launch Kite removed is debatable.

[InvisibleBison]

Just off the top of my head? Fighter, warblade, crusader, swordsage, monk, ur-priest, psychic warrior. I'm sure I could come up with more.

Skin kites can't wield weapons and they have a 0 foot reach. +8 dex is nice, but it doesn't make up for taking an attack of opportunity every time you make an attack. And aside from the Dex bonus, none of their racial features synergize with those classes, so they're four levels behind on class features with less than nothing to show for it.

Edit: Okay, I missed that their attack was a touch attack. That does give them a bit of an advantage. I still don't think it's enough to overcome their lack of reach, though.

[Thurbane]

Skin Kite

• Small Undead
• 4 RHD (d12 hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level")
• 10 ft speed, fly 40 ft (average)
• 1d4 touch attack
• Meld: can grapple with a small or larger creature (with a +12 racial bonus); it then starts stealing skin.
• Steal skin: while grappling, inflict 1d4 Cha damage. Once it drain 4 points, it detaches.
• Darkvision 60 ft
• Diet dependent: steals skin.
• Launch kite: after absorbing 4 points of Cha, it can a new skin kite as a full round action. Doesn't mention any control over the new kites.
• Undead traits.
• Dex +8, Con --, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -4: net +0, one non-ability. That hit to Int hurts, and since undead have a lot of stuff based on Cha, a -4 isn't great.
• Very small racial skill list, but at least they are useful skills.

Very non-standard body type, no ability to speak listed. You're likely to have a lot of gear issues, and I guess it's a DMs call as to whether you can speak or not: my gut says no.

I'm going to have to go with LA -0 (maybe LA -0* for spawn). I mean, 4HD isn't too terrible, and +12 racial grapple bonus on a small creature is pretty neat. Fly speed is also nice. But that's where the good stuff ends. It's special attack is a bit "meh". You take big hits to two mental ability scores, presumably can't speak, and are going to have a hard time wielding items and using most gear.

What's you progression? With a touch attack, I'd maybe recommend a sneak attacker, but those are usually skill-monkeys, and that doesn't mix well with -6 Int. Also, you're only getting one touch attack per round: SA builds like TWF and similar for good reason. I guess wouldn't be too bad as a Swordsage chassis, especially if Unarmed Swordsage variant is available. Maybe Wis based caster, but even if you get around verbal component and other issues, you won't get 9ths (unless you go Ur-Priest?).

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The Skin Kite has some very big advantages over the Stirge: mainly that its special attack actually counts as a grapple, which means it locks down the target and can be optimized in all the ways a grapple can, and that its Str score is not best described as "why bother?".

The picture shows slitted red eyes, so there's an argument it has a head. Wings count as arms for chakras, so it could totem bind Girallon Arms for four actual arms and more bonuses to grapple (whether this would let a Skin Kite use gloves and rings, I haven't the faintest idea, though).

Regardless, I can't think of a grappling build out there that wouldn't gleefully trade four levels for the ability to disregard both of the combat style's fatal flaws: size cap and magic countermeasures. A net +8 to grapple checks on top of that is just icing on the cake. Losing most item/chakra slots, however, is a much steeper price. Still, I don't think I can go below +0*.

[Troacctid]

Reach is an easily solvable problem. Just put ranks in Tumble. At the very worst, you can spend one or two feats to deal with it. I'm not worried about 0 ft. reach.

And aside from the Dex bonus, none of their racial features synergize with those classes, so they're four levels behind on class features with less than nothing to show for it..

Racial bonuses to grapple don't synergize with grapply classes?

I don't see how you're behind on levels as an ur-priest. It's a prestige class. Martial adepts only put you behind 2 levels because your HD stacks. And skin kite racial abilities are wildly better than anything you would be getting from the lower-tier martials, so if you think about it, it's really more like you're 4 levels ahead of them. (Or, alternatively, it's like you're taking the prestige class first and then the base class, instead of the other way around.)

[Morphic tide]

Going PsyWar has you looking to use the class for doing something particular with the bonus feats, probably Metapsionics related, while Swordsage can do some weird things with the auto-grapple owing to its sources of per-hit damage. Monk is most likely just going to be a base for Tashalatora, as you aren't getting much of normal attacks to Flurry without odd steps, and there's better Grapple options than Monk besides.

I'll go LA +0, without running the numbers in depth, because it's likely to not actually exceed a normal character at the end of things because it's in such an intensely front-loaded niche.

[InvisibleBison]

Reach is an easily solvable problem. Just put ranks in Tumble. At the very worst, you can spend one or two feats to deal with it. I'm not worried about 0 ft. reach.


Racial bonuses to grapple don't synergize with grapply classes?

Both good points. I'm changing my vote to LA: +0.

[liquidformat]

That said, the grapple ability plus the Cha damage can be an extremely lethal combo, and I think this is easily powerful enough for +1* LA.

Can someone remind me what happens if you hit 0 cha does that kill you?



Skin kites can't actually do anything to constructs, most undead, elementals, most if not all plants and other things that don't have a skin (for example they probably don't work on crystal creatures) so there are a lot of monsters out there that your one ability you are getting from your 4 rhd strictly don't work on, frankly it is lucky meld doesn't specifically call out humanoid, monstrous humanoid, and giant only. Its really questionable what slots you have, hands, feet, arms, fingers, and shoulders all seem straight out, can't wield anything since you have no hands, probably have eye and head slot, maybe neck or waist, body slot, could probably argue your ring slots into piercings you have enough skin anyways. You also can't speak, and while getting undead racial traits is great being saddled with 4 undead RHD on is horrible for any build that doesn't get casting from them.

I actually think the best build for this (thing ignore tier 0 PRCs like ur-priest because seriously saying something can go ur-priest just means it doesn't have a negative wis mod...) is probably something like invisible fist monk 2/war mind 10/totemist 4 (maybe not in this order) using monk to pickup improved grapple and maybe stunning fist from monk, as feats taking hidden talent (expansion or something else since you will have access to expansion with war mind), knowledge devotion or educated to pickup K (psionics), Monastic Training, Tashalatora, Martial Study, Martial Stance (or maybe some medshaper feats to help with totemist). While meldshapers don't do great with undead totemist does give you some helpful powers to maximize your grappling so you can stick to things and kill them. It is questionable if monk levels are actually needed but they do at least give you something to leverage against things your meld ability won't work on.

Over all skin kites have some big pluses and big minuses, the fact that meld negates FoM is quite big but at the same time somewhere around half the monsters in the game are still immune to your shenanigans and another large portion you are going to struggle to make your grapple checks even if you are grapple optimized, even worse you have no hands, can't speak, and are going to be missing many item slots. when you add in low hp from being undead there are a lot of negatives to overcome. All and all I think there is just enough there to justify 4 rhd so I am going with +0* LA, I don't think you are getting enough to outperform your contemporaries.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Skin kites can't actually do anything to constructs, most undead, elementals, most if not all plants and other things that don't have a skin (for example they probably don't work on crystal creatures) so there are a lot of monsters out there that your one ability you are getting from your 4 rhd strictly don't work on, frankly it is lucky meld doesn't specifically call out humanoid, monstrous humanoid, and giant only.

Hmm, actually, while using Steal Skin on skinless creatures would be more than a tad questionable, Meld only requires they have a body. Arguably, the Skin Kite is better against skinless creatures, since it won't be compelled to detach from them after 1-4 rounds.

[liquidformat]

Hmm, actually, while using Steal Skin on skinless creatures would be more than a tad questionable, Meld only requires they have a body. Arguably, the Skin Kite is better against skinless creatures, since it won't be compelled to detach from them after 1-4 rounds.

yeah the goofiness on 'skinless' targets, targets with spells like barkskin and stoneskin, and targets with ectoplasmic skin are very much up to DM fiat which is rather problematic. In my experience things like barkskin and stoneskin spells or being a creature without skin or wearing full plate was enough to shutdown skin kite's abilities but things like that are very DM dependent and often the answer depends on if you are a player facing a skin kite vs playing as a skin kite...

Would have been helpful if this thing had more description of what are valid targets...

[Lapak]

Can someone remind me what happens if you hit 0 cha does that kill you?

Per the SRD, CHA is the same as INT or WIS - being dropped to zero makes you unconscious. (STR makes you helpless, DEX makes you paralyzed; interesting that it's only CON that kills you directly.)

[Tzardok]

Per the SRD, CHA is the same as INT or WIS - being dropped to zero makes you unconscious. (STR makes you helpless, DEX makes you paralyzed; interesting that it's only CON that kills you directly.)

Makes sense. CON is about how healthy you are. No Health, No Life.

[liquidformat]

Per the SRD, CHA is the same as INT or WIS - being dropped to zero makes you unconscious. (STR makes you helpless, DEX makes you paralyzed; interesting that it's only CON that kills you directly.)

hum I would have thought wis or maybe int at least would also be a kill stat...

[Tzardok]

hum I would have thought wis or maybe int at least would also be a kill stat...

Nah. The mental stats all result in a coma (or something that's similiar enough) when down to zero.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm not sure, how do they get to +8 to-hit? I see +2 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 size and no relevant feat. That monster is extremely poorly worded. But that also means that it is very ripe for abuse.

It has darkvision. Not blindsight though. Even though it doesn't have eyes. Okay.

It says that the skin kite can still be attacked when it is melded. Not a consideration if the skin kite is the PC, but if you can put 3 essentia in a spellward shirt, wouldn't being covered by skin kites grant you the equivalent of an arbitrary number of temporary hit points? Also works for infiltration ('Me? Infiltrating an undead in this paladin camp? I wouldn't dare! You can even look everything I have on me'), even though with much more difficulty.

Also, it's natural weapon is a touch attack, and deals 1d4 damage before melding. That's very unique. There are hardly other corporeal creatures with a native natural weapon that is specifically described as doing physical damage by a touch attack. I'm sure there are a lot of special weapon qualities that a skin kite would love to see on their touch natural attack. I also see a Master of Poisons skin kite work pretty well. It is an undead, so it isn't affected by poison, and I'm pretty sure injecting poison under the ripped skin of the opponent counts as injury.
1) Cover yourself in poison. 2) Wait for the opponent to have a skin. 3) Fly (I'm not sorry)
Just buy a 1/day minor creation item to create Black Lotus, or craft Drow poison, which is really a save-or-Lose at low levels. Plus, having your sneak attack on a touch attack roll is really fun for a rogue.
Swordsage was also suggested, and I totally approve. Getting maneuvers with a touch attack is incredible at all levels.
There is also the cinderspawn that can do that, but it is only cold and charisma damage, so it might be weird, and making it count as an injury for the poison is dubious at best.
I am going to choose that as my natural weapon the next time I play a warshaper. And if I find myself with bits of an opponents skin on my own, then it was worth it.

Also, it flies. I like flying. Even average flying. And the ability scores are not that bad. In total +0, for a Small flying creature with interesting abilities is pretty good.

In the end, 4 RHD is still a lot, and it's better in niche/gimmicky builds than in mainstream ones. A martial undead has simply too many things against it, and being basically forced to take 2 levels of totemist to have arms hurts the skin kite even more. But I really think the benefits compensate it. I'm going to LA+0 for the skin kite, just for the sheer uniqueness of the creature.

hum I would have thought wis or maybe int at least would also be a kill stat...

These are just mental effects, so it's not going to kill you. Having wisdom 0 means that you lose the ability to interpret what your senses are transmitting to your brain. It's the same as losing your 5 senses, kinda like when you're in a deep sleep. Having intelligence 0 means you don't understand/remember why you're here/what you're supposed to do. So you do nothing. Like a fully conscious coma. And charisma 0 means you can't distinguish yourself from the rest of the world. So you litterally can't act, since you don't have the sense of self necessary to start a command to your body. Strength 0 is just that you don't have the strength to lift your own body, Dexterity 0 means you can't control your movement, so you are just paralyzed, but fully conscious. But constitution is just the abstraction of "how well your body functions", so Con 0 means that your organs do not function anymore. Like the heart, or the brain. Yeah, you're dead.

[Debatra]

I'm not sure, how do they get to +8 to-hit? I see +2 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 size and no relevant feat. That monster is extremely poorly worded. But that also means that it is very ripe for abuse.

The usual answer for minutia like that is "it's fixed in the errata and I didn't mention it because it was just a fixed miscalculation instead of the stats themselves being changed". Double-checking the LM errata file, this is indeed the case once again.

[Temotei]

LA +0* for me.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Edit: and prevent creating more than one spawn per person. I see you, Naberius abusers, and you still only have one skin to animate.

A skin kite doesn't steal all your skin. If we assume 0 Charisma means zero skin, you can make ~2.5 skin kites from a metric commoner.

Also works for infiltration ('Me? Infiltrating an undead in this paladin camp? I wouldn't dare! You can even look everything I have on me'), even though with much more difficulty.

"Sir, you have an undead leech made of skin on your shoulder."
"Really? Bugger must have a numbing agent!"

I get the impression that skin kites hang off things they meld into, rather than slipping seamlessly into the flesh. That's why you can violently rip them off.