LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[remetagross]

The end of the thread is approaching...where are we standing as far as new thread names are concerned?

I'm still pushing with my old favourite: Who Shot CR ?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I will push the "20,000 ECL under viability" for the next title.

[AvatarVecna]

Come CR Bad Takes

[danielxcutter]

I will push the "20,000 ECL under viability" for the next title.

I vote for this!

[Caelestion]

The end of the thread is approaching...where are we standing as far as new thread names are concerned?

I'm still pushing with my old favourite: Who Shot CR ?

I like this one. :)

[Dalmosh]

Better LA'd than Never

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Better LA'd than Never

Love it. Bring on the puns!

[Remuko]

Better LA'd than Never

I like this one. Puns = win.

[Tzardok]

I too support Dalmosh's idea.

[Debatra]

+1 - remetagross, Troacctid,
+0 - PoeticallyPsyco, Morphic tide, liquidformat, Beni-Kujaku, Temotei, InvisibleBison
-0 - Thurbane,

Who Shot CR? - remetagross, Caelestion,
20,000 ECL Under Viability - Beni-Kujaku, danielxcutter,
Come CR Bad Takes - AvatarVecna,
Better LA'd Than Never - Dalmosh, PoeticallyPsyco, Remuko, Tzardok,

Skin Kite is a clear +0*, and the next thread's name is still up for grabs. Glancing briefly at the next monster, I'm fairly sure we can squeeze it in before we need a new thread (and possibly even the next one), so keep the suggestions and votes coming and I'll call it after either the Skirr or the Skulking Cyst.

[Tzardok]

Ah yes, the Skirr. I love the picture. Looks like a wacky guy.

[Debatra]

Skirr

Size & Type: Huge Undead
Space/Reach: 15'/10'
HD: 9
Speed: 20', Fly 50' (Poor)
Ability Scores: Str +12, Dex +4, Con -, Int -8, Wis +2, Cha +4 - Net +14, one penalty
Natural Armor: 12
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (2d8), two Secondary Claws (2d6)
Skill List: Listen, Spot
Body Shape: ...The flavor text says "humanoid form with the skull of a long-toothed bull". Judge for yourself.
Speech (Languages): "Skirrs know no languages." This doesn't necessarily exclude speech, but it hints toward it.
CR: 7
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0

...A skeletal undead that can still use its wings to fly? Okay, sure.

Finally, we have a size-appropriate grappler. And apparently its preferred tactic is to use Improved Grab (Large or smaller, bite only) to carry its foe/prey high into the air and then drop it. Admittedly, that does do a bit more damage than the average bite/claw/claw combo... except for all the time spent ascending with poor maneuverability.

Instead of some special ability, a Skirr feeds its diet dependency of flesh via good old-fashioned eating.

[Efrate]

This I like. This is a grappler. I hate that the improved grab only functions on large or smaller though. A +22 grapple out the gate with a base 18 strength is very nice. You are better than a water orc barbarian in rage before wbl and feats, which should be about equal once you add them to both of you.

Permanent enlarge is rough cause of undead but you are in a pretty good spot. The int hit forces beatstick grappler, but you are actually good at it out the gate. Natural flight even at poor mobility is nice, and undead immunities are fantastic. Can get up to 8ths as a martial adept at 20. Sadly 1 bab off of 4th attack but grapple should hit before that. All item slots by the look of it, might need pearl of speech.

I am comfy giving this +0. It is fine.

[Thurbane]

Skirr

• Huge Undead (10 ft reach)
• 9 RHD (d12hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level")
• Speed 20 ft, fly 50 ft (poor).
• +12 natural AC.
• Bite 2d8 and 2 claws 2d6.
• Improved grab: activates on a bite, for targets up to large. The monster tactic is to grab, fly up high, and drop the victim.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Diet dependent: flesh - one of the least disruptive diet dependencies.
• Undead traits.
• Str +12, Dex +4, Int -8, Wis +2, Cha +4: +14, one non ability. That is a massive hit to Int!
• Very small racial skill list, but with -8 Int, probably won't matter much.

Somewhat unusual body type; unsure how good the claws would be at manipulating objects. It says they know no languages, which I guess is different than not being able to speak. If you put points into Speak Language, you should be fine.

As a DM, I have a bit of a soft spot for these guys, especially with the Hivenest template thrown on for lols.

As a PC? I really wanted these to be +0, but I'm not seeing it. Sure, you've got a decent chassis for a grabber/grappler, and flight is always good, but is that worth 9HD (with poor BAB), and a hit to Int that means you're likely to only be getting 1 skill point per level? Skills matter, for everyone. I'm guessing best progression would be something full BAB, maybe Barbarian or Crusader.

I'm think I'm voting LA -0, but a strong argument might get me to +0.

[danielxcutter]

Losing 5 BAB, being a melee type with undead HD, and FoM being available(if not quite common yet) are not exactly shining examples of why this thing is good.

[Morphic tide]

This thing seems to be asking primarily for Monk to get things properly under control, since the Int hit and RHD weight make the PRCs common to so many others a pain. With your +12 Strength and Huge size, your initial attack bonus is +8, being equivalent to a Monk (or any other 3/4ths BAB race) with racial +4 Strength, except you get +6 to damage instead of +2. This together gives you a 2d6+6 Unarmed Strike at Monk 1, which is 13 average damage, as strictly your racial attributes and Monk 1. At 12th level, you can take Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike and have a Monk belt alongside 3 levels of Monk, giving you the Unarmed Strike of a 12th-level Gargantuan Monk, if I understand things correctly.

Defensively, you have +12 Natural Armor, +2 from Dexterity, and +1 from your Wisdom bonus, but -2 from your size, giving you an overall AC advantage over a Human Monk of +12, if we assume they have an extra point of AC bonus from their extra 9 levels, in exchange for being saddled with no Constitution score so you have 4-6 less HP per level. You can only get Improved Evasion at ECL 18, but the whole "Protection From Attack Rolls" schtick I ramble on about still holds true, and things that don't use attack rolls tend to have issues with a Huge 60+ ft. Fly speed Grappler coming at them.

Do not mention Freedom of Movement. A DM breaking out a Big Fat No spell to your entire build on a regular enough basis to make its viability questionable is being a terrible DM. That spell does not appear on statblocks with any frequency, the Pit Fiend and Solar do not mention it, and if the DM does start bringing it out, that is just one of many reasons your Wizard should get ahold of Dispel Magic and prep a copy or two a day. If the DM's taking the major steps to counter that, see above: They are a terrible DM, as DMs are not to be relentlessly digging at invalidating their player's characters. They should run a few numbers to see what it takes to have a decent chance of failure and stick to that, not get out hard counters.

Edit: Forgot to mention the Grappling numbers: You're down 5 BAB compared to full BAB, but up +8 Size modifier and +6 Strength modifier. Against a Goliath's +4 and +2, respectively, you have a net advantage of +3 to Grapple checks, and get access to Gargantuan targets by default. Any size bump gets you to Colossal targets. As you don't really have the PRC access to compete with Barbarians and your durability is at its most dramatic detriment comparing to them, I find the 3/4ths BAB Grapplers (Monk, Totemist, and Psychic Warrior) the more appropriate comparison point, and against them you're only out three BAB, giving you a net +5 instead, which is a pretty hefty improvement.

Ultimately, I feel this one is fine at LA +0, because it has the raw numbers to be made to work with enough itemization and class level frontloading.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, but are we seriously going with Monk as a starting board? I'm pretty sure Swordsage's still better anyways!

[Morphic tide]

Okay, but are we seriously going with Monk as a starting board? I'm pretty sure Swordsage's still better anyways!

Remind me again what the Monk's problem is? Could it perhaps be that having 50 ft. base Fly speed and +13 AC and two size increases and +12 Strength remarkably readily solve the Monk's normal problems? You're easily hitting with, if I understand properly, 6d6+10 damage at level 12 before itemization, with two at only -2 against your regular Standard Action attack, and have permanent 60 ft. Flight.

Also, the Unarmed Strike shenanigans basically all apply to Tiger Claw Unarmed Swordsage to begin with. You have a Wisdom bonus, the issue's on the Discipline Skills that are giving flat damage to begin with when you're starting at, again, 6d6 base damage. Setting Sun runs on Trip, not Grapple, though admittedly you get a +8 size bonus and +6 Strength bonus there, too. You need 5th-level Maneuvers to start getting extra attacks out of Tiger Claw, which needs IL 11, which will need 7 levels of Swordsage to reach from your base 4.5 IL, meaning you get it at ECL 16. And, by extension, cap at 7th-level Maneuvers with IL 15.5, with room for one lost level. Which is probably going to be Pounce Barbarian if we're perfectly honest, because why burn Maneuvers on that?

[danielxcutter]

I do suppose monstrous races have a bit of an easier time doing Monk builds than normal PCs.

[emulord]

+0 for the Skirr. Seems like a monk that is more focused on combat. Lack of Con/skills is always a problem, but being ahead on combat abilities should make up for it on average. Its numbers arent OP enough to consider an LA tho.

Better LA'd than Never is fantastic for next thread

[Troacctid]

I think +0 is reasonable. It's beefy and it does things. Give it a PC stat array, PC wealth, and PC feats, and it shouldn't have any trouble at all competing with an equally-leveled beatstick.

[danielxcutter]

Undead and constructs having it rough in terms of hit points still sucks though. Maybe not enough for a -0 on this, but I think it still becomes quite relevant at higher levels.

[remetagross]

For me 9 HDs is too steep a price. A grappling Psychic Warrior can pull off about the same numbers, while being much more versatile in non-combat situations (and even in combat situations where grappling does not apply, which are not limited to FoM situations - think long-distance combat). That's an LA -0 for me. The -8 to Int is the last nail in the coffin (got it??).

[Lilapop]

Pretend this is an innocent question (it isn't, and it is related to the discussion, but try to answer without that context): What would people's opinion be on a ranger-based beatstick, either through wildshape ranger or as a revenant blade TWF powerattacking blender?

[remetagross]

Done that once, it's a neat fellow. Tier 3 material at low levels.

[danielxcutter]

I honestly don't know about the Wildshape Ranger thing, but I think Revenant Blade TWFing has the slight problem of taking fairly large penalties to churn out huge piles of damage.

I mean it probably is really just a slight problem because buffs are a thing and the potential damage output can get ridiculous, but it does seem you'll be missing a lot.

[liquidformat]

This I like. This is a grappler. I hate that the improved grab only functions on large or smaller though. A +22 grapple out the gate with a base 18 strength is very nice. You are better than a water orc barbarian in rage before wbl and feats, which should be about equal once you add them to both of you.

Permanent enlarge is rough cause of undead but you are in a pretty good spot. The int hit forces beatstick grappler, but you are actually good at it out the gate. Natural flight even at poor mobility is nice, and undead immunities are fantastic. Can get up to 8ths as a martial adept at 20. Sadly 1 bab off of 4th attack but grapple should hit before that. All item slots by the look of it, might need pearl of speech.

I am comfy giving this +0. It is fine.

So some random comments before jumping in, it bugs me that the stat block for Skirr ignores the -2 to attack and adds the bonus from WF(bite) to claws, also due to not having separate pair of wings claws can't be used while flying.

Now jumping in, taking a look through our archive at ECL 9 monsters +22 grapple is admittedly high end of what I am seeing, most beatsticks I am seeing are at +17 grapple and are large rather than huge. On the other hand improved grab is connected to their bite which has +8 AB out of the box (+4bab+6Str-2size) which is going to cause issues, looking at other ecl monsters AC is 18-22 Skirr is in the top end again, and looking at HP it is at the bottom of the barrel.

Lets take a look at the power range we have to compare with Skirr at ECL: Cave Troll (+0 9rhd), Dragonne (+0 9rhd), Flesh Golem (-0 9rhd), Green Hagg (-0 9rhd), Hieracosphinx (-0 9rhd), Lamia (-0 9rhd), Dark/Spirit Naga (+0 9rhd). Flesh golem is probably the closest match as it has similar numbers and slightly better immunities, both green hagg and lamia are interesting in that their spell and skill access gives them more versatility but neither is powerful in combat which seems to be why they are both -0, similarly the Naga all are level 7 sorcerers and have middling combat power however, being a level 7 sorcerer is where their +0 comes from without it they are an easy -0. Cave troll is a natural attack blender with fast healing to back it up, it has similarly horrible int, similar AC, it is less susceptible to hp based attacks but more to save based attacks but in the end D&D is about being offensively powerful rather than defensively and cave troll easily outstrips Skirr in damage/threat.
The most interesting are probably the comparison between Dragonne, Hieracosphinx, and Skirr all three are fliers with Dragonne being the worst and Hieracosphinx being the best, both Dragonne and Hieracosphinx have pounce while Skirr has IG and Dragonne has the highest damage potential Skirr has the worst in air and probably on par with Hieracosphinx on the ground due to low hit rate, Skirr has best AC but not by much and worst hp. What seems to give Dragonne its +0 compared to Hieracosphinx is its roar which is a pretty powerful debuff useable over a large range. Another interesting comparison is wyvern bumped up to 9 ecl, with one extra rhd the wyvern is also huge and a level of barbarian gives it rage and pounce (or if we want to compare apples to apples Improved Grab) it has a +26 grapple mod and +15 to hit with high save and very high hp and close ac altogether it handily out competes the Skirr.

Going forward and looking at potential builds for the Skirr I have to disagree with the idea of go into monk/swordsage, I believe that is a bad choice, Skirr's biggest issue is hitting things not AC nor damage options, it has the worst to hit out of any ECL monster I looked at and will be behind compared to most beatstick builds and especially so compared to our measuring stick the orc barbarian/warblade. As such going full bab and/or something that would increase str is probably the best choice, honestly I think dipping warblade for maneuvers or barbarian for pounce and rage (using cha instead of con for duration) and then jumping into warmind is a much better choice than monk/swordsage. If this thing weren't undead I would say Fist of the Forest but that isn't an undead friendly class. A Comical option might be hulking hurler/war hulk and use the strategy of grabbing enemies to use as throwing weapons, but sadly given the issue of using your claws to fly that probably doesn't work...

Altogether if I want to play giant monster beatstick Skirr seems to be comparable to Hieracosphinx and Flesh Golem and to fall short of Dragonne, Cave Troll, and Wyvern so I think I will vote for -0 LA

Pretend this is an innocent question (it isn't, and it is related to the discussion, but try to answer without that context): What would people's opinion be on a ranger-based beatstick, either through wildshape ranger or as a revenant blade TWF powerattacking blender?

I am a fan of TWF Ranger/Warblade/revenant blade/Eternal Blade and find it to be quite good and very thematic for Valenar elves. The one thing that rubs me the wrong way is Revent Blade should either require being a Valenar Elf or Bladebearer of Valenar .

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ah yes, the Skirr. I love the picture. Looks like a wacky guy.

It looks like someone used a Yu-Gi-Oh monster as inspiration for a budget horror movie prop.
That's intended as a compliment. It's a cool design.

Instead of some special ability, a Skirr feeds its diet dependency of flesh via good old-fashioned eating.

That's not diet dependency, that's carnivory going through an emo phase.

[liquidformat]

It looks like someone used a Yu-Gi-Oh monster as inspiration for a budget horror movie prop.
That's intended as a compliment. It's a cool design.

Yugioh came to the states in 2002 and Libris Mortis was published 2004 so they could very well have used Yugioh for inspiration, granted this is a pretty boring beatstick of a monster.

[Remuko]

seems a -0 to me. Even the arguments for +0 help convince me this is -0 at best lol Not impressed.