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2021-01-17, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Great work, Debatra!
So, if historically, there were no cases of entire abilities being removed because of a rider effect, there is no need to worry about inconsistency, correct? No need for repeat discussions?
That worry seemed to me to be the ground for all current objections. With this information, does anyone still object to "asterisking" Bleakborne spawning, and not the heat draining aura?
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2021-01-17, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Would you believe we're currently at a three-way tie? Four votes each for -0*, +0*, and +1*
All that said, I'm going to give it just a little longer. I'm going to bed soon, and I probably won't be jumping onto the Playground first thing in the morning.
Also, since we technically reopened it, I'm taking our history of specifically not asterisking unfriendly auras as good enough reason to close Atropal Scion again, unchanged.Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-17 at 01:55 AM.
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2021-01-17, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Well, if we ever end up in a tie (or close to it), host's privilege prevails. It's on you. :)
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2021-01-17, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Just the spawn creation. I've heard the arguments of both sides, and I think removing just the problematic parts, but not homebrewing/houseruling things, is the best way to give advice to somebody using the thread to figure out LA for their specific game. "It's LA +1 if you make this change" isn't helpful because not everybody will agree with that change.
2. Do you think the Atropal Scion's asterisk should include the Negative Energy Aura?
3. If it does, do you still agree with the original rating of +1*? If not, how would you now rate it?
4. Do you believe the Bleakborn's asterisk should include its Heat-Draining Aura? (Note that this also effectively nerfs Contingent Healing, as only the "doesn't get destroyed at 0 HP" part will be able to function without the aura.)
5. If it does, what rating would you give it? (Note that this also effectively nerfs Contingent Healing, as only the "doesn't get destroyed at 0 HP" part will be able to function without the aura.)
6. If the Bleakborn's asterisk does not include its Heat-Draining Aura, how would you rate it?Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-01-17 at 11:42 AM.
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2021-01-17, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
With the three-way tie (AvatarVecna's original -0 vote was counted in that), the average between them is +0*. The Heat-Draining Aura will remain, without Spawn creation.
Blood Amniote is next. Check back in a few minutes.Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.
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2021-01-17, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Blood Amniote
Size & Type: Huge Undead (but see below)
HD: 10
Speed: 30', Climb 20'
Ability Scores: Str +8, Dex +10, Con ,- Int -, Wis -10, Cha -10 - Net -2, two massive penalties on top of mindlessness
Natural Armor: 13
Natural Weapons: One Primary Slam (2d6)
Skill List: None
Body Shape: Ooze
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 9
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0* (Uncapped Spawn/Split Ability)
So there are various flavors of zombie, which are more-or-less intact corpses. There are various skeletal undead, which are reanimated bones. A Blood Amniote is reanimated blood.
It is literally a blood ooze. It even has Ooze traits on top of Undead traits. For its numbers, it retains the D12 Undead hit dice, but gets the 3/4 BAB and all poor saves from the Ooze. It's mindless, so I have no idea how many skill points it would get if it weren't. It has 60' darkvision despite being blind and having blindsight out to the same range. Its creature type is still Undead.
DR 10/- and fast healing 5 go well with the high natural armor and dual traits to give it some decent durability, and its Blood Call ability attaches 1d4 Con damage to its melee attacks against living creatures (errata'd to exclude Plants and Oozes). Blood Call is also how it feeds its inescapable craving for blood... And also how it uses its uncapped Self Spawn ability, essentially a Split.
When it manages to deal its full HP total in Con damage over the course of its existence, it splits into two, both of equal power. No mention is made of control. Oddly enough, this ability is also both a separate entry as well as a rider effect of its Blood Call. This is probably the slowest spawn/split ability I've seen, but it's still uncapped and potentially abusable. Asterisk it.Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-20 at 06:50 AM.
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2021-01-17, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
This looks like a -0* to me. Too many hit dice to make a decent caster, not enough BAB to compete with martial characters, and no noteworthy special abilities to make up the difference. The crippling mental stat penalties are just icing on the cake of badness.
Last edited by InvisibleBison; 2021-01-17 at 02:23 PM.
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2021-01-17, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Huh. There's usually a distinction between "traits" and "features." Save bonuses, BAB and skill points are classified as "features", so having "Ooze Traits" shouldn't have changed any of those things: the blood amniote should (hypothetically) still have Undead features. But you're right: the stat block has the Will save calculated with a poor progression and BAB calculated with 3/4's progression (both as the Ooze type, and not the Undead type).
The only thing about Self Spawn is that the spawn aren't explicitly stated to be under the blood amniote's control, so I'm not sure the asterisk is warranted for this. I'm still going to include it in my vote, but I wouldn't flinch if others choose not to include it.
It's also curious that "Blood Call" was errata-ed to exclude plants and oozes, but not elementals (who are usually also excluded from blood-based effects).
Beyond those hiccups (boy, there are a lot of those in this book, aren't there?), the blood amniote is just an amorphous thing with 10 racial hit dice, a negative net modifier to stats, and some Constitution damage appended to a slam attack. It has lots of immunities, Fast Healing and above-average natural armor, so it's pretty sturdy. But, you'll still probably struggle to contribute effectively without some real DM mercy.
LA -0* for the blood amniote.
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2021-01-17, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
I don't see any reason for this not to be -0*. 01 RHD, mindless, single attack; no good options really. Only thing its got going for it is the no-save-just-suffer blood call, and while that's decent, it doesn't nearly make up for the rest.
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2021-01-17, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Relevant:
-0* shouldn't be an argument this time around.
Even assuming this happens and allows you to have feats (and a tiny number of skill points, I guess), this ooze doesn't get enough to really warrant LA. Splitting is technically uncapped spawning (exponentially spreading, even, since the spawns can themselves spawn more), but you're talking about splitting every time you deal 65 Con damage to targets, which is dealt 1d4 at a time. We're talking an average of 26 successful attacks. And unlike say "split whenever you take slashing damage", this isn't something you can trigger by attacking yourself, since Blood Amniote isn't subject to Con damage.
Everything else just really can't make up for the downsides. DR 10/-, Fast Healing 5, Blindsight 60 ft, normal speed (better than most oozes get), NA +13, splitting mechanics, con damage on natural attack, decent Dex for Touch AC/Init? Sorry my dude, you have awful Fort/Will, mediocre Ref for your level, medium BAB, and no skill points even if the DM gives you the above freebie. It's got slightly better BAB and slightly better defenses than Bleakborn for the most part (except for how Bleakborn is immune to dying), but it's in the same situation as Bleakborn when it comes to losing BAB and HP. And that's not even touching casting: Bleakborn might have had a pile of crappy HD getting in the way of their spell level access, but at least they were literally capable of casting spells ever. If you roll/purchase an 18 in your casting stat, you'll be casting cantrips and nothing else at ECL 16.
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2021-01-17, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Can't get enthused to do a detailed breakdown of this one; lets just say I agree with LA -0*.
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2021-01-17, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Yeah, if any uncapped spawn ability is ever going to dodge an asterisk, this would probably be it. It's extremely slow, and you'll never be able to control them without either a friendly necromancer or dedicating/wasting your entire build for it. I guess you could raid a peasant village, but it's not exactly a Wightocalypse. Heck, just find a high-Con ally and someone who can spam-cast Restoration.
But still, even uncontrolled spawn are worth the asterisk. Especially since you're duplicating a PC. No idea if the Self-Spawn also has any class levels the original had, but it's still a bit of a can of worms.Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.
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2021-01-17, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Since they're mindless, when a blood amniote spawns a new one, without explicit loyalty or control, they two will probably fight by default. But they're immune to each other's Con damage, so they can't actually feed off each other. +9 vs AC 26 means missing 4/5 and hitting 1/5 (since oozes and undead are both immune to crits). 2d6+6 vs DR 10/- is 3 damage-per-round on average, and they each have fast healing 5. So unless you're both non-mindless, splitting traps you in an eternal loop of endless combat with your own child, unless there's additional potential victims pretty nearby. And even then, once you run out of potential victims who are closer than other blood amniotes, you and those BAs become trapped again.
Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-01-17 at 04:28 PM.
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2021-01-17, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
I'd appreciate if you reiterated this point at the end. One nice thing about Inevitability's ratings that I didn't appreciate until now is that he always concluded with the conclusion. Even if it was obvious, even if there was an interesting lengthy digression about the creature's abilities or place in the game or whatever, he wrapped the piece up by pointing out that it isn't up to snuff with what an epic-level T3 character can do. When it was worth +0 or positive LA, he summarized why. It was a good way to wrap up each post.
It doesn't affect the final rating, but most of us are here for fun more than because we desperately want better LAs for the 3.5 games we're running. Presentation matters.
Specifying the ability dropped by the asterisk, even if it's obvious, is a nice touch. Maybe it will help people remember what the asterisk is specifically supposed to be used for.
Agreed. But it sounds neat.
Considering that the result of its spawn-creating ability is essentially arbitrary, it also functions as a gacha.
(numbering mine)
Breaking these down, we have:
- 1, 2, 8: Abilities which, if left untouched, let the PC increase their power to arbitrary levels
- 3, 4, 7, "11": Abilities which can be abused to slightly less ridiculous levels, where at best you would need to rate someone abusing them like that separately (and several levels apart from) someone not doing so
- 4 (sometimes), 6, 10, 12, 13: Abilities which can destroy a character's viability as a PC, either by restricting heavily or potentially destroying them as a being with agency
- 5: Abilities that just don't work
- 9: Abilities which work, but where the effects vary too wildly to rate
Aside from Category B and maybe C, you can't really rate these abilities; B and C, on the other hand, would require you to center the rating around something that most players and DMs wouldn't actually play with. In practice, a DM would have to either nerf/excise these abilities for a PC to be viable, or use their own judgement on what it's worth.
Also, asterisks have been assigned to ~50 out of several hundred* monsters. Even if asterisks ruin the integrity of any monster they're applied to, it's ridiculous to say that the whole endeavor is ruined because only seventeen out of eighteen monsters are "properly" rated.
Spoiler: *
control-F says there are 444 plus signs and 531 -0's. Manually looking through the page, I spy 38 false positives—some entries with multiple level adjustments for different circumstances (e.g. the skeleton template, which gets +1 if you can avoid RHD and ±0 otherwise), the -0's in the dates, and the "+ Reply to Thread" that must never be used. If I didn't miss anything, that's 937 monsters rated over the ~5 years of this project, only 53 (~5.7%) of which have asterisks. Granted, these numbers treat every draconic age category and monstrous vermin size category as a separate creature, but still.
Though I note that Debatra's run has a much higher proportion of asterisks. Five isn't a great sample size, but two of them already have asterisks. If you hate them, you may have some reason to be concerned about his run...
I believe Inevitability ran things on somewhere between FPTP and a mathematical mean. I don't remember him ever detailing his exact procedures, but in this kind of situation I think he'd give +0*. Which sounds about to me, given the votes.
Until we have reanimated skin, Dwarf Fortress still has the wackiest reanimated body part.
It is literally a blood ooze. It even has Ooze traits on top of Undead traits. For its numbers, it retains the D12 Undead hit dice, but gets the 3/4 BAB and all poor saves from the Ooze. It's mindless, so I have no idea how many skill points it would get if it weren't. It has 60' darkvision despite being blind and having blindsight out to the same range. Its creature type is still Undead.
I'm voting for the asterisk (and the -0). Creating spawn is a problematic ability to begin with, all the more so when the results are described as "identical". Either you're destroying the PC, or you're creating a new blood amniote with class levels and whatnot. I don't know if the latter would be more disruptive if the PC-tier character worked for the party or against it (ie, immediately draining the other PCs of blood), but both would be pretty bad. The most reasonable and least disruptive result would be the new amniote wandering off and doing its own thing, which is functionally pretty similar to just excising the ability.
Also, there's the bookkeeping. You'd need to keep track of the total blood you've drained over the course of your career, resetting every so often and releasing a blood ooze that may or may not be meaningful.
As an aside, while a blood amniote's mindlessness makes it a pretty lousy BBEG, it could make a moderately cool boss fight. You're fighting a big blood monster, supported by its necromancer creator; partway through the fight, it splits into two blood monsters, each restored to full HP by RAW. It's nothing on a typical JRPG multi-stage boss battle, but it's more dynamic than a standard D&D boss fight. Most of those are pretty monotonous, as far as the boss's abilities go; maybe a magical monster spends a couple turns buffing itself or summoning allies, but otherwise it generally either stays at about the same level or exhausts its best abilities and slowly peters out.
Anyways. Doubt there'll be much argument here; aside from odd concepts, a weird hybrid type, and the most limited unlimited spawn ability in history, the blood amniote is just a big bruiser with a bit of ability damage, a couple defensive abilities, and too many crappy hit dice.
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2021-01-17, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
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2021-01-17, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Doesn't the fact that the con drain applies to creatures mean that blobbing over animals in the forest could earn a spawn? It's reasonable for a DM to call that a creature needs to have a stat block to qualify, but a school of fish, a pond full of toads, or a burrow of rabbits could have ~66 constitution worth of living creatures within. A swarm of flies likely won't count as even 10 con, but in the right biomes, it's easy to find a constitution score worth of hp to drain.
I think it's still worth a -0* because having something impotently attacking you forever is technically a means of controlling it. You can kite your spawn until you can circle around some other creature that it could attack on its way to you. If you get two, they may battle each other forever, but having one 'easily' created backup is abusable and tedious.
As funny as it is to think about, it's reasonable to assume that a mindless creature would have some instinct not to attack a creature of its own kind. Unless there's written ecology fluff about oozes consuming each other until there's only a single ooze left in a dungeon.
Thank you for letting me think of something silly today.
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2021-01-17, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Though I note that Debatra's run has a much higher proportion of asterisks. Five isn't a great sample size, but two of them already have asterisks. If you hate them, you may have some reason to be concerned about his run...
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2021-01-17, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Adding my voice to AvatarVecna's: Libris Mortis seems like an unusually error-prone source, and it will have lots of spawn abilities, so let's brace ourselves for a relatively high number of asterisk discussions in the near future.
Don't forget the variant undead in Chapter 7: I think there are about 20 modified templates there, and I for one would really like to see ratings on those. Most of them are pretty minor variants on already-rated templates, so they should be pretty easy to rate.
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2021-01-17, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-01-17, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
-0* Uncapped if uncontrolled spawn, oozepocalaypse not as bad as some but still bad. Also lack of limbs, speech, manipulators, body slots mental scores...its a combination of all the negative stuff generally.
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2021-01-17, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
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2021-01-17, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
DR 10/- is excellent and Fast Heal 5 is always nice, but it's a mindless undead ooze with Wis 1 and Cha 1. I don't think any number of RHD could be removed to be appropriate for this sort of monster. LA -0.
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2021-01-17, 09:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
So I guess it’s less the Book of Bad Latin and more the Book of Bad Publishing I guess.
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2021-01-18, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
The Latin is more unique to Libris Mortis. If I had to pick the book of bad publishing, I'd probably go with the Tome of Magic—Truenaming's infamous broken-ness and shadow magic's mediocrity balances out the binders and vestiges.
Though for all the crap we give WotC, as far as I know they've never stiffed their freelancer writers, which I've heard certain other publishers in this industry have.
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2021-01-18, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Yeah, a fairly easy -0*. Bloodmote Cloud is next.
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2021-01-18, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Bloodmote Cloud
Size & Type: Fine Undead (Swarm)
HD: 10
Speed: Fly 20'
Ability Scores: Str -6, Dex +2, Con -, Int -, Wis +0, Cha -10 - Net -14, Two big penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: Swarm (1d4)
Skill List: -
Body Shape: Insect Swarm
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 6
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0
It's a swarm of undead mosquitoes. And you thought the regular ones were bad.
In addition to the 1d4 damage it does just as a swarm, its Blood Drain deals an additional 1d3, as well as 1d2 Con damage to any living creature. This is also how it feeds its Diet Dependency of blood. Unlike the Blood Amniote before it, the errata does not exclude any creature types this time. It also has the Distraction ability that all swarms have, and it specifically says it's Con-based (and accordingly lists the DC as 15), so the normal rule that would allow it to be Cha-based because of its lack of a Con score is presumably irrelevant in this case. The errata is silent on the matter.
...That's it. Ten HD for a little Con damage on an otherwise unimpressive swarm.Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-19 at 08:08 PM.
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2021-01-18, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
A Fine swarm is immune to weapon damage by default, but honestly we've had a diminuitive swarm with just 2 HD and that still ended up getting LA +0. Even throwing a pile of undead immunities on top of swarm stuff, and giving some Con drain/damage just isn't enough to really make up such a huge level difference. That's not even touching on the mental attribute issues.
LA -0*
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2021-01-18, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
I don't think there's anythng particularly special here, and it is pretty unplayable. LA -0 from me.
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2021-01-18, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-01-18, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
-0 Let's move past this heap quickly.