Swordsage+TWF=Ghost Love Score?

[Zephyros]

I am making an Elven Swordsage for a campaign on a custom world with a reaaaaally good DM. I am trying to optimize (since the whole party will be.) but I am having a pretty hard time. So fellow playgrounders I have some questions for ye

To set things straight about the campaign: We re starting level4 at standard WBL. All books are allowed (even BoED and BoVD ) My starting-unmodified stats are 14 18 16 14 18 10 (dm ruled that 4 "1s" in a row nets you an 18 and I did that twice ) Campaign starts at Saturday and my current build is:
Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse and TWF (with the shaky flaw) DM ruled that TWF scales with iterative attacks, so one feat does it all.
I planned to TWF kukris and mainly use boosts.
Then I opened the book to look for maneuvers.
And got PWND

Main Points (n questions)
1st) Do you think it is viable to use TWF along with Swordsage? I mean that there are so few boosts (and many of them impose a penalty already making TWF +mediocre attack bonus =crippling)
2nd) So many and nice strikes (=standard actions) make TWF seem hardly worth it. In fact all 9th level maneuvers are strikes!
3rd) Should I go along with one weapon and pick mainly strikes for the beginning along with 1-2 utility boosts? Should I just pick TWF (as it only needs one feat) and keep it in case I need it? What weapon should I use?
4th)With my current build is Bloodclaw master worth it?

The reason I am so confused is that Diamond Mind don't mess well with TWF and I reaaaaally like Diamond Mind. As a matter of fact I wanted to concentrate on DM with a bit of SH and DW.

5th) Should I ditch Tiger Claw completely? (as a more Warbladey school?)

Finally. If you re just bored to comment all the above just give me an optimized build for 4 to 8 lvl. Thanks in advance

[Riffington]

Tiger Claw and +2d6 sneak attack is not half bad with two weapon fighting.

Diamond Mind isn't really set up for two weapon fighting though - if you really want to focus on that school, you won't be using both weapons very often.

[dyslexicfaser]

You could make it work, but it wouldn't exactly be optimised. Diamond mind is really better with a two-handed weapon: probably why the favored weapons for the discipline are things like bastard sword (katana).

[Townopolis]

The 9th level Diamond Mind strike is, IIRC, make two full attacks. It's a strike so it takes a standard actions. That's running around and still getting your full spread of TWF attacks, no wait, you get two of them.

Tiger Claw is built for TWF. If you TWF, you want Tiger Claw. At low levels, Wolf Fang Strike (it's a full attack at levels 1-5, standard action) and Sudden Leap (allows you to move and full attack) are wonderful.

There should be enough boosts, and counters to keep you taken care of for the most part. Round it out with some more utilitarian strikes and you should be fine. Especially combining the Shadow Hand sneak attack stance with Tiger Claw boosts.

Also, since you only have access to half your known maneuvers at a time (about) you can have half your list be general purpose TWFy stuff, and the other half full of more situational strikes.

[Douglas]

There are quite enough boosts and counters available for it to be worth it imo. Burning Blade, Searing Blade, Inferno Blade, Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, and Girallon Windmill Fleshrip are all good and that's just off the top of my head. Add in a selection of counters, miscellaneous stuff like Shadow Jaunt and Quicksilver Motion, and the (very few) full attack strikes and you should have a quite viable build. For reference, the full attack strikes are Flashing Sun (Desert Wind 2), Pouncing Charge (Tiger Claw 5), and Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind 9).

[Dhavaer]

The 9th level Diamond Mind strike is, IIRC, make two full attacks. It's a strike so it takes a standard actions.

Time Stands Still is a Full Round Action to initiate.

[Swooper]

So... where's the connection between a two-weapon fighting Swordsage and a song by a Finnish Symphonic Powergothmetal band?

[Zephyros]

Unfortunately Swooper I tried to make a pun. I failed

I also considered using Spiked Chain so that I can still be able to use Finesse, Shadow Blade and Diamond Mind Strikes.

Silly Question can Spiked Chain be used with TWF? (I mean use its two ends as two weapons? )

[Darrin]

1st) Do you think it is viable to use TWF along with Swordsage? I mean that there are so few boosts (and many of them impose a penalty already making TWF +mediocre attack bonus =crippling)

Swordsages do quite well with TWF. They have access to TigerClaw, which covers TWF quite a bit, and boosts from both Desert Wind and Diamond Mind.

2nd) So many and nice strikes (=standard actions) make TWF seem hardly worth it. In fact all 9th level maneuvers are strikes!

Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose is nothing to sneeze at, particularly with extra damage from Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade. Add on the SwordSage capstone ability, and you can add Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip or Inferno Blade.

3rd) Should I go along with one weapon and pick mainly strikes for the beginning along with 1-2 utility boosts? Should I just pick TWF (as it only needs one feat) and keep it in case I need it? What weapon should I use?

Kukris are nice, but if you're trying to synergize Shadow Blade with TigerClaw and BloodClaw Master, stick with daggers.

4th)With my current build is Bloodclaw master worth it?

For a 2-level dip, absolutely yes. Get rid of your TWF penalties. After that... you can stick around for 3 or 4 if you need it, but you get more maneuvers per level by going back to Swordsage. Avoid going in for all 5 levels, your BAB is going to be dinged up enough as it is.

The reason I am so confused is that Diamond Mind don't mess well with TWF and I reaaaaally like Diamond Mind. As a matter of fact I wanted to concentrate on DM with a bit of SH and DW.

Start with the Concentrate Check for Save boosts in Diamond Mind, but I wouldn't worry about Diamond Mind strikes until you pick up Burning Blade (DW1), Wind Stride (DW1), Sudden Leap (TC1), and Cloak of Deception (SH2). For stances, start with Island of Blades and never leave it until you can pick up Assassin's Stance. For your second stance, Stance of Clarity (DM1) or Hunter's Sense (TC1) might be useful in a few rare instances.

5th) Should I ditch Tiger Claw completely? (as a more Warbladey school?)

No! *thwack* Tiger Claw SwordSages can be quite potent, particularly with damage boosts from Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade.

Finally. If you re just bored to comment all the above just give me an optimized build for 4 to 8 lvl. Thanks in advance

Maneuvers:

General Advice - Avoid the Shadow Hand strikes, most of them involve a Fort save of some kind to work, and take a standard action so no TWF. You may be tempted to pick up Shadow Jaunt, but again, it's a standard action so wait for Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink. Desert Wind is a good place to pick up boosts, which will be your bread-and-butter for TWF attacks, and it also has a couple area-effects that might be useful (Death Mark, Ring of Fire). Likewise, Diamond Mind has some good boosts, and some excellent movement-related maneuvers, such as Bounding Assault and Quicksilver Motion. And you probably don't want to hear this, but avoid the Diamond Mind Concentration-based strikes, you can do more damage via TWF. Stay out of Setting Sun unless you're working on a trip build. The only thing worth picking up in Stone Dragon is Mountain Hammer for anti-DR. Tiger Claw is very TWF friendly

SwordSage 1 - Burning Blade (DW1), Wind Stride (DW1), Moment of Perfect Mind (DM1), Wolf Fang Strike (TC1), Sudden Leap (TC1), Shadow Blade Technique (SH1). Stance = Island of Blades.
SwordSage 2 - Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM1). Stance = Stance of Clarity
SwordSage 3 - Cloak of Deception (SH2)
SwordSage 4 - Action Before Thought (DM2). Consider replacing Shadow Blade Technique with Mountain Hammer (SD2), your all-purpose utility DR can-opener.
SwordSage 5 - Death Mark (DW3). Stance = Assassin's Stance.
SwordSage 6 - Fire Riposte (DW2). Consider upgrading one of your strikes to Insightful Strike.
SwordSage 7 - Death From Above (TC4)
SwordSage 8 - Searing Blade (DM4). Consider replacing a strike with Ruby Nightmare Blade.

[Kizara]

So... where's the connection between a two-weapon fighting Swordsage and a song by a Finnish Symphonic Powergothmetal band?

Yea, I opened this thread precisely because of that as well.

For other's referance:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8GOHJAnVh4

Old Nightwish forever! :)

[Fax Celestis]

Yea, I opened this thread precisely because of that as well.

For other's referance:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8GOHJAnVh4

Old Nightwish forever! :)

OLD? "Ghost Love Score" is from Once, from 2005.

[Kizara]

OLD? "Ghost Love Score" is from Once, from 2005.

Old in my mind= Tarja days. "New" would be Anette.

Yes, this is a fairly recent development (2007), but it marks a huge change in the band.

[valadil]

OLD? "Ghost Love Score" is from Once, from 2005.

Yeah old! They have since replaced Tarja, the vocalist.

[Zephyros]

The Dm is lenient and is letting me use kukris for both TC and SH. What about the spiked chain? It opens a whole lot of opportunities for feats et cetera...

[Fax Celestis]

Old in my mind= Tarja days. "New" would be Anette.

Yes, this is a fairly recent development (2007), but it marks a huge change in the band.

True enough. I don't much care for Annette's voice.

[Leon]

Yea, I opened this thread precisely because of that as well.

Hehe, so did i.

[AslanCross]

Silly Question can Spiked Chain be used with TWF? (I mean use its two ends as two weapons? )

Nope. Closest you get to TWF with a similar weapon is the Kusarigama, an exotic weapon from oriental adventures. One end is 1d6 slashing, the other 1d4 bludgeoning if used as a double weapon. Alternatively, you can make it a Spiked-chain like weapon by using only one end, in which case it becomes a two-handed reach weapon.

[Fax Celestis]

Nope. Closest you get to TWF with a similar weapon is the Kusarigama, an exotic weapon from oriental adventures. One end is 1d6 slashing, the other 1d4 bludgeoning if used as a double weapon. Alternatively, you can make it a Spiked-chain like weapon by using only one end, in which case it becomes a two-handed reach weapon.

Four levels in Cavedweller or whatever that PrC is in Drow of the Underdark will make the spiked chain into a one-handed weapon.

[Douglas]

The Dm is lenient and is letting me use kukris for both TC and SH. What about the spiked chain? It opens a whole lot of opportunities for feats et cetera...

You do know that discipline favored weapons are not required to use maneuvers from their discipline, right? You can use, for example, Time Stands Still with unarmed strikes, daggers, spiked chains, greatswords, longswords, spears, quarterstaves, falchions, longspears, guisarmes, gnome hooked hammers, or any other melee weapon you can get. The Shadow Blade feat specifically requires Shadow Hand favored weapons, the Swordsage's Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus) class feature only works with weapons favored by the chosen discipline, and a few other things are similarly limited, but each and every feat, class feature, maneuver, or other ability that requires a specific discipline's favored weapon specifically spells out that requirement in the individual ability's description.

[Darrin]

You do know that discipline favored weapons are not required to use maneuvers from their discipline, right?

If you want to get the bonus damage from Shadow Blade (and it's hard to imagine a lot of instances where you wouldn't), then you have to use a Shadow Hand weapon. And while you don't have to use that weapon for Shadow Hand maneuvers, if you want to cancel out your TWF penalties with Bloodclaw Master (and it's hard to imagine a lot of instances where you wouldn't), you'd want to use a Tiger Claw weapon. Now, there is only one weapon that overlaps both disciplines... unarmed strike, but if you look at the description of Superior Two-Weapon Fighting on page 97, it adds daggers to the allowable weapons. So if you want to combine the benefits of Shadow Blade with Superior Two-Weapon Fighting (and it's hard to imag... you get the idea), there are two overlapping weapons that allow this: daggers and unarmed strikes. And since enchanting/enhancing unarmed strikes is a bit problematic, daggers are the optimal weapon for Shadow Blade/BloodClaw TWF'ers.

I'd recommend against Spiked Chain. While you would get Shadow Blade damage with it (it's one of the Shadow Hand weapons), you couldn't use it with Superior Two-Weapon Fighting... and given your slower BAB progression as a SwordSage, you want to reduce those TWF penalties ASAP.

If you decide not to go with BloodClaw Master, then yes, you could TWF with a Spiked Chain... just add armor spikes as your offhand weapon. However, you wouldn't get Shadow Blade damage on the armor spikes. Or you could add Improved Unarmed Strike (via the Unarmed SwordSage variant) as your offhand strike... but I'm not sure if you're allowed to use an unarmed strike with both hands occupied unless you're a monk. In either case, you'd still have to burn a feat on EWP, so it's not all that optimal.

[Fizban]

In Oriental Adventures, the spiked chain can be switched between a reach weapon and a double weapon. I think the off hand might have been a die smaller when TWF. They also have a few variations with different damage types.

[Goumindong]

Just look at the manuver list and add anything that adds bonus damage die and anything that lest you make multipule attacks in a round.

Punishing stance is a good one to start out with +1d6 damage/attack for -2 AC. Later switch it out for the sneak attack stance.

Pick up the "generate flank" boost from desert wind..

Basically stack as many attacks and extra damage die manuvers, boosts, and stances as you can at a time.

And try to always stay in a shadow hand stance for the dex bonuses to damage. This stacks with your strength bonus afaik, so primary hand will do str+dex and off hand will do str x .5 + dex. Since dex boosts your AC this is wonderful synergy.