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Thread: WandaVision
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2021-02-15, 05:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-15, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
SpoilerOne thing to note is that all of the commercials have obliquely referenced significant events in Wanda's life.
Stark weapons killed their parents (Starktech toaster that acts like a movie bomb) > Strucker (Recruited the twins) > Hydra (experiments created their powers) > Lagos (where her powers couldn't fix the mess).
I think the symbolism of being given something that looks like it will solve your problem but doesn't is also important from the Yo! Magic commercial, and references a past event like all the others do.
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2021-02-15, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
For me, it's mostly the "Everything is Wanda" train, and Pietro and Agnes are just along for the ride.
Spoiler"Everything is Wanda" isn't the same as "Wanda is in Complete Control". Wanda is actively trying to suppress her traumatic memories, which requires letting her subconscious run a lot of the show(this conflict between her conscious awareness and subconscious control may be being exacerbated if she's using an unstable power source, like a fracture in the multiverse or whatever experimental stuff Hayward was putting into Vision). In particular, the people of Westview are being subjected to a kind of character overlay that is filtering their actual personalities through what is permitted by their sitcom role. This way, Wanda doesn't have to carefully pick their every word and action, just say "you're the wacky next-door neighbor" and Agnes fills in the rest. Agnes' "character break" in episode 5 is a result of Wanda's growing awareness of the sitcom leading her subconscious to change the role to "actor playing the wacky next-door neighbor".
SpoilerPietro's a bit of a special case, because he's dead. With no underlying person, he's being purely run by Wanda's subconscious. He knows a lot of things that Pietro wouldn't, but nothing that Wanda doesn't. His role as the "mooching ne'er-do-well uncle" requires him to approve of things that make Wanda feel guilty and say things that will hurt her, and he's drawing those directly from her mind.
SpoilerRemember how Jimmy can remember his protected witness, but their friends and family can't? Because of the psychic elements at play, emotional closeness counts. Agnes' status as a friendly major character gives her extra flexibility.
On escaping, we know Agnes is not quite right from the doctor's vacation-based escape attempt in episode 3. They can think about leaving if they can do it while staying in character. And they have really good reasons to look for one. The person under Agnes probably hasn't lived in Westview her whole life, and thought getting lost (or maybe drunk and lost) would be in character without realizing the other difficulties she'd encounter.
SpoilerJimmy mentioning that this is more power than she's displayed in the past is what prompts Monica's "she was beating Thanos" comment. And this episode had Pietro asking "How are you doing this". So it's reasonable to think the writers want us to be wondering about that.
SpoilerI agree, but for completeness I'd like to bring up the possibility that all she was offered was the idea of a idyllic sit-com life, given to her by old TV shows.
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2021-02-16, 03:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Spoiler: The commercial
I think the interpretation of the Yo-magic commercial might be much more straightforward. And dark. The commercial shows kids trying to eat magic and failing, which leads to their death.
It might be literal. There are kids in Westwiev, we can see them everywhere in this episode. Quicksilver even comments on them and nods to Wanda that it is a good thing she lets them in their beds all the other time.
But if they are in their beds, they aren't eating. In fact, many of the people at the edge of the town, where Wanda's control is limited, probably aren't. So the people are being controled now, but sooner or later, they'll start dying.
D.
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2021-02-16, 04:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Do we have any clear indication about how long this has been going on? The dog lived for less than a day before dying, for example, and I think the military operation outside can't be more than a few days old.
I'm sure they said how long ago she stole the body, but I can't recall. Days, weeks?Last edited by Eldan; 2021-02-16 at 04:39 AM.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2021-02-16, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-16, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
So they'd definitely be dead without water and starving. It's probably not that direct then.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2021-02-17, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Five other points, and here's a sixth.
SpoilerWanda's power has always been red. The Hex turns red as Wanda interacts with it and uses her power on it. It wasn't red all along.
My explanation is this anomaly is some kind of thing that Wanda can control or influence. It acts as a conduit and focus for her power and explains the extraordinary functions of the Hex.
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2021-02-17, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
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2021-02-17, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
You mean the inhbaitants of Westview? They're in sitcom-land, eating and drinking (and other... bodily functions) is only used as a setup for comedic gags. I expect the Hex creates some kind of advanced Repletion effect where they simply don't need food and water. All their needs are taken care of save their ability to leave.
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2021-02-17, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
The destruction of drones was a straightforward example of TK, which she's always used. Red energy, drones shredded. Not a snap-style disintegration.
Her TK was always flavored as a mental ability, so that's also probably not a very strong evidence for anything other than the mind stone.
I do agree that the Hex as shown currently is very much like the reality stone, but this could be explained as the work of someone else.
My bet? Ralph. Ralph is doing everything.
How many times has Agnes referenced "My husband Ralph", always negatively? Dozens, probably. And yet, we've never seen him. Even ignoring the fact that no scriptwriter is likely to put that much effort into a character that never matters, the false world within the hex at least reflects the real one. A helicopter is changed, but something of the original form remains in the reflection into the era within which it's currently set.
Which means the hidden, unseen, awful Ralph is the villain. Agnes is trying her best to warn them.
Didn't spoil the above because I've had this theory since episode 1, and it doesn't really rely on later reveals for anything.
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2021-02-17, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Ralph being constantly referenced without being seen is a sitcom trope. Whether that trope will be played straight all the way through (i.e. we'll never see him), or is simply a misdirect, is anyone's guess.
As far as Wanda's powers, I'm not married to that theory - it doesn't matter too much to me one way or the other where they all came from. Even if they never explain it fully, or default to "mutant all along with stone as catalyst", there isn't much impact on my enjoyment of the show. Remember, the whole concept of mutants in the first place was a way to avoid needing convoluted origins for every metahuman the Marvel writers wanted to invent or play around with.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-02-18, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Spoiler: Hear me out!
This is a spaghetti throwing at the wall theory time
WestView as Never Neverland of Peter Pan, with Wanda as Wendy, and Pietro as Peter Pan.
With Andy Serkis as Captain Hook (Ulysses Klaue)
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2021-02-18, 05:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-18, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
while the people of Westview seem to be told to fit into certain tropes, i don't think Wanda's subconscious or whatever needs to tell them what to do every moment of every day.
Most likely they're given a simple role "You're the quirky neighbor" "you're the bratty popular one" "You're the Halloween background decoration in case we go out that far" etc, and the people themselves do everything else on their own, including eating, drinking, and using the bathroom.
Consider that the people frozen by the edge of westview were still in full Halloween getup and decoration. they had to be moving at some point or another to get all that in place. Seems most likely that they're able to move around to get to that point "Between episodes" as it were. Maybe they only freeze once the "show" is running since their only "role" is as background characters.Avy by Thormag
Spoiler
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2021-02-18, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Spoiler: My TakeI'd run the middle ground between a lot of the perspectives shared above, which basically boil down to:
1. Wanda is doing this. There's pretty much no doubt about that. The 'it's all Wanda' bit is 100% true. These are her powers, scaled up and made way worse somehow. Whatever she's doing, it's absolutely her doing it.
2. She isn't in full control. We kind of have to take her at her word on this, since a reality warper in full control of their powers wouldn't ever allow all of the interference and wouldn't be thrown by 'twists' like Pietro showing up.
The logical conclusion to me is the interference of a subtle agent. Someone or something got into Wanda's head, figuratively or otherwise. Whether it's Mephisto, Ralph, or whoever, there is a force at work here that operates behind the scenes. Maybe it can't act directly, but needs to use Wanda's powers as a proxy? Maybe it increased them somehow in a Faustian bargain?
Obviously we'll find out, but I don't see the show just explaining everything away as a 'she had these powers deep down all along!' type deal, or even a traumatic superpower awakening/enhancing. That would be pretty cheap from a narrative perspective, and bring up questions like why didn't this happen before in AoU, or Civil War, or hell in Infinity War.Awesome Simurgh avatar by smutmulch!
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2021-02-18, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
You can see some of this in the first couple episodes. They're acting out a sitcom script dictated to them by Wanda. However, Wanda and (especially) Vision are not always acting in a sitcom fashion. When Vision acts atypically the actors panic, and then either laugh to cover it up or are forced to laugh to cover it up by the mind control. They're receiving some form of instruction that says "punchline goes here" and the facade cracks when either the setup or the punchline isn't delivered.
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2021-02-19, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Spoiler: Episode 7Well, that happened. Confirms every suspicion you've had in a most suspicious way.
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2021-02-19, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Spoiler: Ep 7 - Breaking the Fourth WallWell I guess they really did go with the obvious 'Agnes = Agatha Harkness' theory! Did anyone else find it a bit underwhelming for them to meet our expectations so neatly? The style of the reveal was cool though.
Also, on a kind of related note, I guess I wanted a bit more moral complexity from Wanda, and I really hope the show doesn't try to completely lionize her actions in light of this reveal. If she's 100% a victim of Agatha, then she loses a fair bit of her agency and character growth IMO.Awesome Simurgh avatar by smutmulch!
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2021-02-19, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Spoiler: The Truth Will OutAfter all the grandiose speculation, it does feel underwhelming for Agnes/Agatha to have been the villain. It seems she’s been pursuing the gentle-nudge approach all along.
So, did she influence Wanda to steal Vision’s body? Or just take advantage of Wanda’s actions? Now that we know that Agnes is pulling the strings, it seems more likely that she was the one who nudged Wanda to steal Vision’s body.
And yet—given that Hayward was trying to revive Vision for weapons research, it wouldn’t be villainous for Wanda to single-handedly put a stop to that, since preventing a weaponized Vision is a good outcome. Perhaps once Wanda had Vision’s body, she was overwhelmed and vulnerable, and Agnes may have taken advantage of that.
One other question that’s been nagging at me all along: where did the twins come from? Now I’m wondering if Agnes didn’t create them the same way she apparently created Pietro—and if, once they began to develop abilities beyond her plans or control, she didn’t uncreate them as well.
Spoiler: (...Or Will It?)Even though Agnes has been "revealed" as the villain, the reveal was so campy (with its own theme song, even!) that I'm not ruling out another layer of deception here. It's almost too convenient that Agnes has been hiding in plain sight all along; and given that they went out of their way to make the witch connection in the series trailers, it seems almost too easy.Last edited by Palanan; 2021-02-19 at 09:50 AM.
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2021-02-19, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
The way I look on this is, its kind of unfair. We have millions of people watching the show, and dozens of theories floating around as to where the show is going. Being upset that one of them is right is silly. Obviously people were going to guess it, its a show based off of known material so unless they decided to literally create an entirely new storyline set with new characters that never existed in marvel, obviously some people were going to come to the right conclusion early. There is just no escaping that. It would be like watching a new show based on greek mythology. There are only a limited number of options for the bad guy in greek mythology, and every clue makes it more obvious because we know how said characters behave in greek myth. So when viewers guess before the grand reveal that isnt the show writers dropping the ball, its inevitable because the potential options are limited. Short of revealing that it was actually Shiva the whole time and yes now we are doing the Hindu pantheon as a crazy curve ball with no lead up.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2021-02-19, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
They were also making some of the signs inevitable as guesses.
Spoiler: Episode 7
The constant of Agatha’s imagery is the brooch / necklace with her 616 version, and no matter the time in WandaVISION Agnes has the brooch / necklace.
Likewise dressing Agnes as a witch in the Halloween episode and so on. It was inevitable for non comic fans to guess something was off with Agnes but also for comic fans who only know some lore to search out Wanda lore of relationships and to figure out it Agnes = Agatha. You could not do a job of hiding all the signs without being counterproductive for you need to make the moments feel earned. What do I mean here? One of the narrative techniques that works most of the time is you need to escalate tension in the viewer / reader at the same time inside the person with the page / tv moment at the same time. Thus you need to make the reader figure out the mystery (even if it is not the full mystery) when you do the big reveal.
Likewise the villain theme song was layering synchronized meaning with show but the audience figuring things out for the 30 seconds. You are doing more reveals of minor details while emphasizing the new truth to the viewers who were slower on the uptake. This is great storytelling where the authors know their craft.
—————
One thing I have not figured out is why Agatha is trying to delay Vision and Darcy? Is this just a gaslighting strategy where you keep support systems away from Wanda?
Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-02-19 at 10:47 AM.
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2021-02-19, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Spoiler
I don't think there's anything wrong with the audience guessing "Twists". Pathologically avoiding audience theories is how you get Game of Thrones.
In the Comics, Agatha Harkness is usually an ally, mentor, and guide. So I can see a couple options
What we know: 1) it's been Agatha all along, introducing complications into the 'Perfect' world.
2) Agatha and Wanda have not truly met before that moment in the basement (Agatha says "Good to finally meet you")
3) Agatha has, presumably, been fully lucid this whole time.
4) Agatha's actions have been to introduce complications, telling Vision about "Geraldine", introducing "Pietro" as her agent, killing Sparky, all things to disorient Wanda emotionally.
All leading up to pushing Wanda to the breaking point by expanding the Hex.
So, I can see a few theories
1) It's Been Agatha All Along. Wanda came to Westview for some reason, Agatha tricked or otherwise manipulated her into establishing the Hex, with the eventual end-goal of pushing her to a breaking point where Agatha could trap her and get control of her powers somehow. Agatha is the villain here, ultimately responsible for the Hex, in pursuit of some evil scheme.
2) Wanda set up the Hex on her own, potentially having sought out Agatha Harkness for help dealing with her out-of-control powers. Agatha lives in Westview, and her "Evil Schemes" have been her trying to disrupt the Hex to free the town, without revealing herself as a threat to Wanda.
3) Agatha is NOT fully in control of herself. She's been trying to disrupt the Hex, but she's trapped by a "Role" just like everybody else. Her over-the-top scenery chewing villainy is because The Hex has cast her as a Villain. She's got more agency than most of the "Cast", but she's forced to do so as a walking cliche.
Last edited by BRC; 2021-02-19 at 11:23 AM.
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2021-02-19, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
Spoiler: Episode 7
WELP! I'm lothe to say it, but i gotta.
you were right and i was wrong. Particularly about Agness.
... Still hoping Mephisto doesn't get involved though.
On the bright side, looks like Pietro wasn't a multi-universe thing at least.
Spoileroh definitely 100% agree. this is the main reason why i don't want any surprise third-act villains like Mephisto pulling the strings. it just makes everything else up until this point completely meaningless.
i mean i GUESS i can excuse Agatha because she WAS there since episode 1 and was definitely acting suspicious the entire while. Just please, please let it at least be partly Wanda's fault. and don't bring the Devil into it.Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2021-02-19 at 01:46 PM.
Avy by Thormag
Spoiler
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2021-02-19, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
SpoilerThis is the reason I don't 100% trust the reveal. With everything falling apart around her, Wanda has a pretty strong incentive to believe it's not her fault; subconsciously creating a scapegoat would make a lot of sense.
On the other hand, if Agnes/Agatha is just some unlucky person in Westview getting recast by Wanda, why can't Billy hear her thoughts? That would tend to point to her being something special; magical enough to protect from telepathy would certainly do it.
Not sure where its going, but I'm enjoying the ride.
SpoilerHaving seen how it worked here, I would like more villain reveals to come with theme songs.
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2021-02-19, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-19, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
So, what the heck was the plan with that Mars rover? How, exactly, would it have helped in any way even if it had worked? Why did they think it would? They already knew anything that passes the barrier is transformed. Especially modern tech. Why try it with the most space-agy tech they could find? And what would have been accomplished by having a moon rover inside the anomaly?
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2021-02-19, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
The idea was to be able to protect Monica as she went in, without herself getting rewritten, since she'd already gone through the barrier twice.
It was "here is how to have somebody inside the anomaly who isn't rewritten into a sitcom character under Wanda's control"
It was, theoretically, sufficiently resistant to the Hex field to avoid being transformed (they were wrong).
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2021-02-19, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
also it was a reference to a few episodes ago where Monica was talking about a vehicle she'd need to get back inside safely. this is said vehicle.
Avy by Thormag
Spoiler
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2021-02-19, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: WandaVision
A theme song sitcom reference I did not notice but it was just pointed out to me.
Spoiler: 1964
Agnes / Agatha Harkin's campy theme song is based off The Munsters which was a 1964 Sitcom.
Note this was originally in Black and White.
For comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn8TN9w8B4k
It was throwing the kitchen sink at the problem. The hex is "magic" but it is also a science phenomena that creates "observable" qualities such as changes with fancy science words with radiation (is a 10,000-pound fallout shelter, comprised of lead for photons, cadmium for neutrons, tantalum for seismic blasts, on wheels.) It was to show that you can't out force the problem with science and that a different method is needed to solve the problem.
Pretty much it was a 2 episode delay of Monica's arc (episode 5 and 6 delay) plus forcing a "leap of faith."Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-02-19 at 04:15 PM.
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