WandaVision

[GloatingSwine]

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2) Wanda set up the Hex on her own, potentially having sought out Agatha Harkness for help dealing with her out-of-control powers. Agatha lives in Westview, and her "Evil Schemes" have been her trying to disrupt the Hex to free the town, without revealing herself as a threat to Wanda.

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Wanda set up the hex on her own, Agatha Harkness is using it for her own ends. The Twins are the ultimate objective. "Pietro" is working with Agatha (he's largely been focused on interacting with the twins).

[Ramza00]

So are we going to get

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So are we going to get Chthon and his dark book the The Book of Sins known as The Darkhold? Is this going to tie into Dr. Strange 2016 and then the sequel Multiverse of Madness?

[ecarden]

Okay, did I miss something? Why did anyone think that:

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Running into the Hex with the rover would do anything except give them a modified rover and modified Monica? What even was the theory that she would get through unharmed without her sudden immunity to reality warping?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ramza00

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So are we going to get Chthon and his dark book the The Book of Sins known as The Darkhold? Is this going to tie into Dr. Strange 2016 and then the sequel Multiverse of Madness?

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Interesting prospect, because the Darkhold featured heavily in Season Four of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. It ties directly to the Dark Dimension, with obvious Dr. Strange potential, and apparently also featured in Marvel’s Runaways.

So, it’s had some on-screen appearances already, but the average Disney+ viewer most likely hasn’t heard of it.

[theNater]

Okay, did I miss something? Why did anyone think that:

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Running into the Hex with the rover would do anything except give them a modified rover and modified Monica? What even was the theory that she would get through unharmed without her sudden immunity to reality warping?

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The rover had shielding that was supposed to keep out the forms of radiation doing the modifications. The idea was that the radiation would bounce off the rover, allowing it and Monica to pass through the barrier unchanged.

And it kind of worked? The one snag was that instead of the radiation bouncing off the rover, the rover bounced off the radiation, and kept doing that until the shielding gave out.

[JadedDM]

Was that the first episode with a post-credits scene?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by JadedDM
Was that the first episode with a post-credits scene?

Wait, what?

*watch watch watch*



I do believe it was.

[Zalabim]

Spoiler: Episode 7

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Agatha explains everything. Except she totally doesn't. Even if I believe every reveal in her song (which I don't), there's still unrelated/unresolved questions surrounding acting director Hayward, Vision, the twins, Wanda breaking into SWORD, the actual creation of the Hex, and where puppet-Pietro even comes from. The glowy book might be the Darkhold, an evil magic book able to answer some of the how's, but there's still a lot of 'wait what about ????' left over. If Agnes has been trying to get Wanda alone, well, she had some of that in Episode 1. If she just wants the twins, then Agatha doesn't need to lead Wanda to her home now. "Agatha All Along" just doesn't tie everything up with a neat bow, even though I always said she killed the dog.

[Psyren]

RE: Song - I don't care if it raises as many questions as it answers, I've been playing it on repeat nonstop for hours

So, what the heck was the plan with that Mars rover? How, exactly, would it have helped in any way even if it had worked? Why did they think it would? They already knew anything that passes the barrier is transformed. Especially modern tech. Why try it with the most space-agy tech they could find? And what would have been accomplished by having a moon rover inside the anomaly?

The anomaly is made of cosmic radiation. Hence the vehicle designed to withstand that stuff. It was as good a gamble as any.

Narratively, it allowed her to

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realize she could force her way in manually - mirroring how she got her powers in the comics - which is all it really needed to do.

[JadedDM]

Spoiler: Her Agenda

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So what is Agatha's agenda? Why is she doing any of this?

I figure one theory is that she has some kind of elaborate plan, and has been manipulating Wanda this whole time somehow. And everything that's happened; the creation of the hex, reviving Vision, the birth and aging up of the twins, the expansion of the hex all were designed for some specific purpose. But I have no idea what or why.

Another theory is that Agatha is just trying to cause chaos and disrupt the hex. Maybe she's actually just a resident of Westview who happened to be a witch, so when Wanda took it over, she realized what was happening and wants to escape, but due to the constraints of the hex, she is limited in what she can do, and can only disrupt things in subtle ways.

I'm not sure which one seems more likely.

I was right about Hayward trying to revive Vision, though. I speculated that was why Wanda broke into SWORD headquarters and stole his body; but it raised the question, how did Wanda find out? If Agatha is some kind of chess playing mastermind, maybe she was the one who revealed this info to Wanda somehow.

I was partly right about Pietro's creation. I didn't think he was created by Wanda; but I was wrong about who actually did. I speculated it was Billy, but was wrong on that point.

[Clertar]

Spoiler: Her Agenda

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So what is Agatha's agenda? Why is she doing any of this?

I figure one theory is that she has some kind of elaborate plan, and has been manipulating Wanda this whole time somehow. And everything that's happened; the creation of the hex, reviving Vision, the birth and aging up of the twins, the expansion of the hex all were designed for some specific purpose. But I have no idea what or why.

Another theory is that Agatha is just trying to cause chaos and disrupt the hex. Maybe she's actually just a resident of Westview who happened to be a witch, so when Wanda took it over, she realized what was happening and wants to escape, but due to the constraints of the hex, she is limited in what she can do, and can only disrupt things in subtle ways.

I'm not sure which one seems more likely.

I was right about Hayward trying to revive Vision, though. I speculated that was why Wanda broke into SWORD headquarters and stole his body; but it raised the question, how did Wanda find out? If Agatha is some kind of chess playing mastermind, maybe she was the one who revealed this info to Wanda somehow.

I was partly right about Pietro's creation. I didn't think he was created by Wanda; but I was wrong about who actually did. I speculated it was Billy, but was wrong on that point.

Spoiler: Speculation

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The guys from The Weekly Planet have thrown out there the hypothesis that the other supernatural entity behind it will not be something like Mefisto or Nightmare (as that would be introducing a completely new villain at the end of the show out of left field) but Baron Mordo. He's a supernatural antagonist that has already been introduced in the MCU, and it would be consistent with WandaVision leading up to Doctor Strange 2.

[ecarden]

The anomaly is made of cosmic radiation. Hence the vehicle designed to withstand that stuff. It was as good a gamble as any.

That's what's confusing me. I thought it wasn't made of radiation, it was just giving off radiation. It's like saying, I've got on a lead apron, so clearly I can walk through this x-ray machine.

And if they thought it was the armor...why not just test it by chucking a piece through?

[Ramza00]

That's what's confusing me. I thought it wasn't made of radiation, it was just giving off radiation. It's like saying, I've got on a lead apron, so clearly I can walk through this x-ray machine.

And if they thought it was the armor...why not just test it by chucking a piece through?

Drones have gone through.

If it was me as a scientist and engineer and not a military organization I would have tested it with a drone, rc car, hell just an object being thrown. But the point of this was to transform the nature of the quest. We can not have earlier tests before pushing a person through. Pushing a person through was meant to change the nature of the “quest” and make it a leap of faith with all its anxiety. And to delay Monica for episode 5 and 6 to set up the narrative timeline in a certain way.

[ecarden]

Drones have gone through.

First drone got converted. Second was from the same era as the interior and seemed to get through unchanged (which tells us nothing about what would have happened to any person inside). Getting into the Hex hasn't been the problem, as I understand it, it's getting in without being converted and I don't see how shielding is supposed to do that when they have no idea what the actual mechanism is.

If it was me as a scientist and engineer and not a military organization I would have tested it with a drone, rc car, hell just an object being thrown. But the point of this was to transform the nature of the quest. We can not have earlier tests before pushing a person through. Pushing a person through was meant to change the nature of the “quest” and make it a leap of faith with all its anxiety. And to delay Monica for episode 5 and 6 to set up the narrative timeline in a certain way.

I understand the narrative theory here, I just think that casting our heroes as reckless in this way is bad. Same as the 'Monica refuses second blood test and walks out despite totally inconclusive results from her medical exam scene.' To me, that doesn't look like rebel against the unjust authority of Haywood, it looks reckless and dangerous, given we have no idea of the effects of being inside (and best case scenario, we end up with several thousand people who've been in there, suddenly being freed, does that have medical consequences? I don't know, neither does anyone else and their one source of information is refusing to participate in medical testing...)

Also, people have gone in. That's how Monica ended up in there and Hazmat suit/beekeeper guy got in. Now the situation has changed. They're a lot closer to the modern day setting and Wanda has clearly screwed with the Hex to expand it (and Monica herself has been changed) so I don't terribly mind that going through this time gives her an opportunity to fight instead of instantly being converted, but I have no idea what in-narrative would cause them to believe that to be an option.

[Ramza00]

I understand the narrative theory here, I just think that casting our heroes as reckless in this way is bad. Same as the 'Monica refuses second blood test and walks out despite totally inconclusive results from her medical exam scene.' To me, that doesn't look like rebel against the unjust authority of Haywood, it looks reckless and dangerous, given we have no idea of the effects of being inside (and best case scenario, we end up with several thousand people who've been in there, suddenly being freed, does that have medical consequences? I don't know, neither does anyone else and their one source of information is refusing to participate in medical testing...)

I have no problems with this based off my limited understanding of Monica in the comics (I understand this may seem weird if this is your first introduction to her on the tv show.)

Monica’s personality is of the forceful empathetic. The person who shoves when there is injustice and rights wrongs. This is her gift, gift to the world and gift to herself. To understand what are rules, and when to break the rules for they do not work for the situation at the moment and it gets people hurt. To be strong and assertive yet also retain empathy plus perspective taking.

The spirit of will is the freedom to choose and the power to do or to act. The spirit of will is asking “what do I want” followed by how to get what I want.

Of course this can be unbalanced and be used for wicked ends, but asking this question is what one needs to get Monica. She is forceful but empathetic.

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Back to the medical tests.

This same personality has an unconscious energy, one they are not thinking about with words, but still drives them forward and it is “the need to be strong” for strength, opportunity, action is how good things happen.

Thus there is a defense mechanism happening in the background which is “denial” but especially denial of vulnerability and weakness, for to acknowledge weakness directly arrests all energy, arrests all forward momentum and such people thrive off intensity for intensity is what helps connect wants to action.

We see Monica do this denial several times in this show. She denies medical tests for unconsciously and uncritically she blames the tech when she knows that is not quite true. She does not want to talk about Aunt Carol, Wanda, and Thanos for she has “unprocessed” feelings about her 2nd mom who has been gone for 2 almost 3 decades. Lastly when Darcy calls her out about her cells in episode 6, Monica denies the risk for helping Wanda and others is more important.

What I am saying here is this is good writing. This is Monica’s strength and her character flaw. In some ways it is absolute hubris, but that is the nature of heroes instead of humans, heroes do superhuman things even if that is foolhardy.

First drone got converted. Second was from the same era as the interior and seemed to get through unchanged (which tells us nothing about what would have happened to any person inside). Getting into the Hex hasn't been the problem, as I understand it, it's getting in without being converted and I don't see how shielding is supposed to do that when they have no idea what the actual mechanism is.

Yep a true science brain would done more testing for once you realize your rules of reality no longer work it is probably better to figure out what rules of reality is operating.

But this is also a very human thing to do. As Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky demonstrated in psychology research, we have a “fast brain” and a “slow brain” and they both have different biases. Our fast brain uses mental shortcuts, cognitive heuristics, to make quick decisions. These mental shortcuts trained on past information. Well in a world of magic where the rules of reality are wack, all your mental shortcuts should be slightly questioned. Yet too much questioning may lead to inaction which is a different style of folly.

————

Everything Monica is doing and Hayward is doing makes sense and is internally consistent from certain premises. We outside the story question why they assumed those premises in the first place, but we are divorced from the situation and also know this is a story with narrative logic. This in turn changes our premises in the first place.

Monica and Hayward are acting in a “natural” kind of way.

[Draconi Redfir]

Again again again, Monica came up for the idea with this vehicle a few episodes ago, she did the science on it with the information she had, and came to the conclusion that a vehicle designed like this should be able to resist the effects of the hex. This was the payoff of that, she had some loyal friends make/find the vehicle despite Darcy shutting it down. This isn't coming out of nowhere here, this was designed specifically for this job, or was at least determined to be of the correct design for it.

Maybe whatever Wanda did to make the Hex glow red made it difficult to cross through without Wanda's consent, as that hadn't happened when the original plan was devised. Or perhaps the vehicle was working too well, and was keeping the energy of the Hex out so much that it was like hitting a solid wall.

What i don't understand is what made Monica think she'd survive or keep her mind by re-entering the hex alone, she really had no reason to believe she'd make it to the other side in one piece and in the right state of mind, she just went for it. Some of that brash, irrational thinking i guess. The science was done for the vehicle, jumping in alone was just a gut feeling.

[ecarden]

@Ramza00

I'll cop to not knowing anything much about Monica, or Wanda, or SWORD in the comics, but I think my objection actually still stands. I don't inherently object (okay, I do, but only in the sense that I think it's the wrong decision to make, but characters can and should make wrong decisions that are true to their nature, or even that are just mistakes. I've certainly done that plenty in my life.) to her deciding the tests are a waste of time. She 'knows' she's all right, after all, based on how she feels.

The problem is lack of narrative resistance. From an external perspective, this isn't a big deal, we know she's all right, this is just red tape getting in the way of getting one of our protagonists where they need to be. But from an organizational standpoint, this is a big deal. We have someone who has been mind controlled and physically altered and is now refusing to follow standard procedure and be examined after their initial tests are corrupted in some fashion.

Now maybe the tech is outranked and she can order herself released (though that would be BAD procedure design), but in any halfway competent organization, the tech reports to their boss and Monica is ordered back to the medical tests immediately, probably with a guard at this point. This doesn't happen. Now maybe this is intentional to give the otherwise obviously malicious Haywood some sort of fig-leaf of cover for his sudden turn towards cartoonish malevolence and incompetence, but this sort of stuff drives me up the wall as it undermines the entire narrative. If SWORD is this incompetent and careless, how have they survived the last five years? Or last two since Haywood took over?

Now, I'm probably overly sensitive to it in the MCU at this point, because Marvel just cannot resist having any and every governmental organization that appears be proven to be full of nazis, or aliens, or idiots and therefore totally ineffectual at what their actual job is, requiring our heroes to do it for them, but I'm getting a bit tired of it.

[ecarden]

Again again again, Monica came up for the idea with this vehicle a few episodes ago, she did the science on it with the information she had, and came to the conclusion that a vehicle designed like this should be able to resist the effects of the hex. This was the payoff of that, she had some loyal friends make/find the vehicle despite Darcy shutting it down. This isn't coming out of nowhere here, this was designed specifically for this job, or was at least determined to be of the correct design for it.

I mean you say that, but as far as I can tell, they have no idea what even is causing the Hex, or any idea how to protect people from it. They know it gives off radiation and stuff from the era can go through, but that's it. Honestly the best bet I can think of would have been a vehicle and clothing from the era and hope you could 'trick' it somehow?

What i don't understand is what made Monica think she'd survive or keep her mind by re-entering the hex alone, she really had no reason to believe she'd make it to the other side in one piece and in the right state of mind, she just went for it. Some of that brash, irrational thinking i guess. The science was done for the vehicle, jumping in alone was just a gut feeling.

Yeah. I got nothing on this one. I can come up with some headcanon for why it worked differently this time, but I don't know what basis Monica would have for imagining that to be so.

[Draconi Redfir]

I mean you say that, but as far as I can tell, they have no idea what even is causing the Hex, or any idea how to protect people from it. They know it gives off radiation and stuff from the era can go through, but that's it. Honestly the best bet I can think of would have been a vehicle and clothing from the era and hope you could 'trick' it somehow?

you know they were studying it right? Remember Darcy and all those people she came in with? They were doing tests and taking scans, they didn't fully understand it, but they at least knew a few things about it. Monica was just taking the information and speculation they did have and trying to apply it, like a scientist would.

[JadedDM]

Spoiler: The Border

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I do wonder if when Wanda expanded the hex, she fortified the border, too. Originally, when Monica touched it, she was forcefully pulled in. This time she had trouble driving and later, walking through it. It makes sense, after Geraldine, the beekeeper and the drones, that Wanda would make it more difficult to enter.

[Ramza00]

Now maybe the tech is outranked and she can order herself released (though that would be BAD procedure design), but in any halfway competent organization, the tech reports to their boss and Monica is ordered back to the medical tests immediately, probably with a guard at this point. This doesn't happen. Now maybe this is intentional to give the otherwise obviously malicious Haywood some sort of fig-leaf of cover for his sudden turn towards cartoonish malevolence and incompetence, but this sort of stuff drives me up the wall as it undermines the entire narrative. If SWORD is this incompetent and careless, how have they survived the last five years? Or last two since Haywood took over?

Now, I'm probably overly sensitive to it in the MCU at this point, because Marvel just cannot resist having any and every governmental organization that appears be proven to be full of nazis, or aliens, or idiots and therefore totally ineffectual at what their actual job is, requiring our heroes to do it for them, but I'm getting a bit tired of it.

I agree with you. But my suspension of institutional competence was broken for MCU organizations long ago.

This is not Dr. Janet Fraiser of Stargate who will pull rank when you break quarantine. People are replaceable in a competent military organization. The MCU is not like this, instead we have the great “ego” of history narrative logic, where people are not replaceable for this person has 7 PhDs, or this person Aunt and 2nd mother was Captain Marvel.

Incompetent organizations have often happened in world history, hell just in military US history. Incompetency without redundancy and planning “is an all too human thing.”

As a play from the 1930s once said.

Andrea: Unhappy the land that has no heroes!…
Galileo: No. Unhappy the land that needs heroes.

Superheroics often requires the stranger, but also require an absurd society to respond to it. It can then be dark and depressing, or romantic in how everth8ng turns out fine in response. I am saying superheroics and horror are almost the same genre just one trait inverted, much like sitcoms and the twilight zone are the same but one trait inverted.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler: The Border

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I do wonder if when Wanda expanded the hex, she fortified the border, too. Originally, when Monica touched it, she was forcefully pulled in. This time she had trouble driving and later, walking through it. It makes sense, after Geraldine, the beekeeper and the drones, that Wanda would make it more difficult to enter.

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I thought she reinforced it after dumping the drone that shot at her at SWORD’s feet?

[theNater]

I understand the narrative theory here, I just think that casting our heroes as reckless in this way is bad. Same as the 'Monica refuses second blood test and walks out despite totally inconclusive results from her medical exam scene.' To me, that doesn't look like rebel against the unjust authority of Haywood, it looks reckless and dangerous, given we have no idea of the effects of being inside (and best case scenario, we end up with several thousand people who've been in there, suddenly being freed, does that have medical consequences? I don't know, neither does anyone else and their one source of information is refusing to participate in medical testing...)

What i don't understand is what made Monica think she'd survive or keep her mind by re-entering the hex alone, she really had no reason to believe she'd make it to the other side in one piece and in the right state of mind, she just went for it. Some of that brash, irrational thinking i guess. The science was done for the vehicle, jumping in alone was just a gut feeling.

Monica is being reckless because she is grieving. Remember, from her perspective, her mom went from steadily improving to suddenly dead two weeks ago.

Now maybe this is intentional to give the otherwise obviously malicious Haywood some sort of fig-leaf of cover for his sudden turn towards cartoonish malevolence and incompetence, but this sort of stuff drives me up the wall as it undermines the entire narrative. If SWORD is this incompetent and careless, how have they survived the last five years? Or last two since Haywood took over?

Organizational inertia is a thing; Hayward wouldn't have been able to overturn all of Maria's good procedures overnight. He's been slowly chipping away at the foundations, and that damage is why their encounter with Wanda is breaking SWORD apart now.

[Kitten Champion]

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I thought she reinforced it after dumping the drone that shot at her at SWORD’s feet?

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Yes. It wasn't even visible at first, now it's a huge red shimmering field.

The space rover proved it was possible to breech even if it was still transformed when it did, and I assume Monica's altered physiology and Wanda's reticence to actually kill anyone was the reason she managed to break through as she did.

[CardTrick]

Spoiler: Random Thoughts

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After the last couple of episodes, I'm curious if Project Cataract was not simply just to make a new Vision but rather also to make a man-made Infinity Stone (i.e. MCU version of the cosmic cube). If S.W.O.R.D. was already fully briefed on Endgame's events at this point, presumably they were also briefed on the Infinity War and its fallout, specifically being told that that the Snap couldn't be undone because Thanos destroyed the stones. S.W.O.R.D. would have inherited a lot of research on the Mind Stone and Space Stone from Hydra/S.H.I.E.L.D. and may have tried to create their own faux stone (Cosmic Cube) to at the very least undo the effects of the snap for Earth (and provide Earth a superweapon versus any future Thanos-esque threats). When Wanda came for Vision, she got the faux stone too, and given her own raw power/talent and affinity towards the real stones was actually able to activate it and created the Hex. Agatha Harkness sensed a new Infinity Stone-esque item in use and immediately traveled to Westview herself to investigate (the Agatha All Along number appears to show her arriving in Westview just as its changing due to the Hex). She's been looking to take the faux stone from Wanda for herself (she's literally been shown rummaging through Wanda's things looking for something in a past episode) but can't find it because it could literally be in any form within the Hex and Wanda may have blocked herself from remembering too (and other Pietro under Agatha's control was specifically interested in getting details on how Wanda "did it" from her). Now Agatha has either determined the boys ARE the faux stone given new form or she intends to use them as leverage to force Wanda to remember what she did with it.

Just random conjecture though.

[understatement]

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Finally got time to watch the episode. Agatha's song is just astoundingly catchy, and I loved the visual elements of Monica breaking through the Hex.

[Bugbear]

Well.....I'm a bit worried about the Short show Problem. It's the basic problem with having these seasons of a show that are ten episodes or less. There is not enough time for anything.

Episodes 1-3 are a slow, slow, slow burn: they are just about 100% wacky old sitcoms with a note saying "please stand by it will get real soon".

Episodes 4 to 7 we find out what is going on...to a point...with the mystery box or Mystery Hes all around.

Episode 8 will likely be all set up for the end....

Episode 9 will just be the big battle...and the end.

The big problem is they will toss out and utterly forget about all the drama....even more so the really negative things. Who/whatever the big bad is will just come in...laugh...and spam big fight.

Spoiler: Spoilers

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Unless they do a huge fake out and say that the character we have seen is NOT Wanda or she has been under mind control..........Wanda has done:

-Steal Visions body and reanimate him
-Captured a couple hundred people and brainwash them into her puppets

AND it HAS been Wanda all this time....we see her do the things in nearly every episode. Though I'd guess they will try and say the "evil one" is the one REALLY controlling everything....but that will make no sense. WANDA is the one that wants the "perfect life". And she SURE zapped Monica more then once and for SURE zapped the Sword camp.

And somehow Episode 8 will try and say "oh everything was a mistake" or "you the viewers watched it wrong" and will SUDDENLY say "oh Wanda is a perfect good angel hero that has never done anything wrong".

Basically ruining any and all character development. The idea of "forcing people to live a fairy tale" is a decent plot.

But to just hit a reset button and say "haha fooled you nope" is the wrong way to go.

[Ramza00]

Why Bugbear do you feel the need to tell that story? It is still you feeling like it is the story that makes sense and a different story would not make sense.

[Psyren]

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Finally got time to watch the episode. Agatha's song is just astoundingly catchy, and I loved the visual elements of Monica breaking through the Hex.

It's such an earworm!

And somehow Episode 8 will try and say "oh everything was a mistake" or "you the viewers watched it wrong" and will SUDDENLY say "oh Wanda is a perfect good angel hero that has never done anything wrong".

I can't think of a single Marvel hero that sentence applies to (Except maybe Squirrel Girl?)

[Ramza00]

• Agnes: And you don't have a song?
• Agnes: Nothing special you played at your wedding?
• Wanda: No, nothing special.
• Agnes: I'll just loan you some records then.
• Agnes: So, we've got music covered, decor, wardrobe. Oh!
• Agnes: What about seduction techniques?