WandaVision

[theNater]

Spoiler

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I grow increasingly convinced the Agatha reveal is a fake-out.

I was reviewing the song, because it is so catchy, and realized that the conversation with Vision would have required some very clever editing trickery to work as depicted in the song. As a fan of editing trickery, I decided to go check it out and...it doesn't happen. The only times Agnes is out of frame are close-ups of Vision looking directly at her. In particular, when Vision is gesturing forward, Agnes is in shot the whole time.

So I decided to check the other scenes they show there. Visiting Herb and summoning Pietro are a little iffy, but technically possible. The Talent show one, though, isn't. In the song's version she picks up her program, which she doesn't do in the actual episode. We even cut to her immediately after Wanda picks up Señor Scratchy; no program.

It is still unclear why Billy couldn't read her, but right now, she's Wanda's excuse for why things aren't her fault.

I also noticed there hasn't been much talk here of the commercial.

Spoiler: Commercial

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I'm guessing that the Nexus which "Anchors you back to your reality or the reality of your choice" is some sort of trans-universal rift in Westview. That's how Wanda's gotten her power boost, that's why she and Vision can't just move away, that's why an alternate universe Pietro was able to show up.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by theNater

Spoiler

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I grow increasingly convinced the Agatha reveal is a fake-out.

Spoiler: Convictions

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At this point I'm sure of it. The song reveal is too campy and too convenient--explaining everything, whether it's plausible or not. It's almost as if it's designed to satisfy doubts and speculation (both Wanda's and the viewers') without going deeper.

As for the Nexus commercial, I'll just say that it's certainly leaning in a multiversal direction.

[Ramza00]

In 616 comics, the Nexus is a Wanda / Scarlet Witch concept. Only used in half a dozen stories from my recollection.

Will likely be important for timey-whiney MCU stuff such as the Loki tv series and perhaps Ant Man 3.

[Gallowglass]

Just as long as we get the man-thing. Because whomever knows fear burns at the hands of the man-thing.

[Bugbear]

Spoiler: Commercial

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The Nexus has three possible meanings in existing lore:

Nexus is the center of the internet or something...remember Tony Stark went there in Avengers Age of Ultron....

The Nexus of Reality is a open portal that connects Marvel Earth (616) with all the rest of the multiverse. On Earth it is located in a swamp in Florida and has a guardian Man Thing.

A Nexus being. Mostly one per reality, this is a random being...though most often a being of great power. They are focal points that can, possibly, change and alter their realities.

Wanda is the Nexus Being of the 616 reality. There is a lot of story here......but I remember a bit from Avengers Forever that mentioned "Wanda's kids were more powerful then Eternity(or close to all powerfull)"

Spoiler: The Big Bad

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It's not Agatha......

It's:

Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Dormammu, Umar, The Stranger, Eternity and..........Immortus and Kang.

Just about all of them can fit. The Stranger has the nice twist that he likes to capture people and put them in places and.....watch them :). The Stranger also makes a nice twist as he catches and watches people for a living so it can falsely be seen that he just "picked Wanda at random".....but he MIGHT have been hired or tricked into grabbing her by Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Dormammu, Umar, or..........Immortus or Kang

[Serenity]

Spoiler

Show

I grow increasingly convinced the Agatha reveal is a fake-out.

I was reviewing the song, because it is so catchy, and realized that the conversation with Vision would have required some very clever editing trickery to work as depicted in the song. As a fan of editing trickery, I decided to go check it out and...it doesn't happen. The only times Agnes is out of frame are close-ups of Vision looking directly at her. In particular, when Vision is gesturing forward, Agnes is in shot the whole time.

So I decided to check the other scenes they show there. Visiting Herb and summoning Pietro are a little iffy, but technically possible. The Talent show one, though, isn't. In the song's version she picks up her program, which she doesn't do in the actual episode. We even cut to her immediately after Wanda picks up Señor Scratchy; no program.

It is still unclear why Billy couldn't read her, but right now, she's Wanda's excuse for why things aren't her fault.

I also noticed there hasn't been much talk here of the commercial.

Spoiler: Commercial

Show

I'm guessing that the Nexus which "Anchors you back to your reality or the reality of your choice" is some sort of trans-universal rift in Westview. That's how Wanda's gotten her power boost, that's why she and Vision can't just move away, that's why an alternate universe Pietro was able to show up.

Considering we've already had something on a 'Previously on' segment that was different from what we saw in the episode, and it's been noted how there are jump-cuts and other elisions in the in-universe broadcast--not to mention the sort of mental blocks implied by the mockumentary style of episode 7--I wouldn't put too much stock in minor details of physical continuity as an indicator here.

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: The Big Bad

Show

It's not Agatha......

It's:

Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Dormammu, Umar, The Stranger, Eternity and..........Immortus and Kang.

Just about all of them can fit. The Stranger has the nice twist that he likes to capture people and put them in places and.....watch them :). The Stranger also makes a nice twist as he catches and watches people for a living so it can falsely be seen that he just "picked Wanda at random".....but he MIGHT have been hired or tricked into grabbing her by Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Dormammu, Umar, or..........Immortus or Kang

Spoiler: BigBad

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... But none of them are at all relevant to the current story. Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Umar, The Stranger, Eternity, Immortus, and Kang just flat out don't exist in the MCU, and if Dormammu ever makes a repappearance, it'll probably involve Dr.Strange in some way.

Right now Wandavision has three villains / possible villains:

Wanda
Hayward
and Agatha.
We're two-to-three episodes away from the end of the series, i REALLY doubt they're going to pull in someone we've never even met out of the aether and make him suddenly important.
They did kind of do that with Agatha, but she just barely gets a pass due to being a part of the show since the first episode. And we haven't really seen just how fully she's involved.

Considering we've already had something on a 'Previously on' segment that was different from what we saw in the episode, and it's been noted how there are jump-cuts and other elisions in the in-universe broadcast--not to mention the sort of mental blocks implied by the mockumentary style of episode 7--I wouldn't put too much stock in minor details of physical continuity as an indicator here.

wait, the "previously on" segments were different then what actually happened? i hadn't noticed, what's different?

[Psyren]

An interesting and minor detail I saw: All of the "Previously on WandaVision!" intro blurbs by Wanda are slightly different. Specifically:

Spoiler

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Her voice sounds increasingly sadder/lethargic with each one - which could also be another subconscious hint that her energy is being drained the longer she stays in WestView, as hinted at by the Yo-Magic and Nexus antidepressant commercials, along with her deteriorating mental state.

[JadedDM]

Spoiler: Villains

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It did occur to me that Agatha being revealed as being behind it 'all along' did seem to happen conveniently after Monica had that uncomfortable talk with Wanda about not letting Hayward 'make her the villain.' And if Westview is her fantasy, and after being forced to consider whether she's being a villain or not, an actual villain shows up...but I don't know, I thought maybe I was reading too much into things.

[GravityEmblem]

Spoiler: Villains

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It did occur to me that Agatha being revealed as being behind it 'all along' did seem to happen conveniently after Monica had that uncomfortable talk with Wanda about not letting Hayward 'make her the villain.' And if Westview is her fantasy, and after being forced to consider whether she's being a villain or not, an actual villain shows up...but I don't know, I thought maybe I was reading too much into things.

Spoiler: Response to Villains

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Ooh, that's clever! It'd be a heck of a reveal for the final two episodes, that Agatha being behind everything was a retcon by Wanda!
I do hope that, at the end of the day, the whole thing is mostly Wanda. Having Agatha being behind EVERYTHING is a bit of a cop-out that takes away from the themes of the series. But maybe that's what their going for. Episode 8 ends up like a cop-out that takes away from the themes of the series--only to show right at the end that, no, it WAS Wanda all along, and she has to confront that. That would be awesome.

[Serenity]

Spoiler: BigBad

Show

... But none of them are at all relevant to the current story. Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Umar, The Stranger, Eternity, Immortus, and Kang just flat out don't exist in the MCU, and if Dormammu ever makes a repappearance, it'll probably involve Dr.Strange in some way.

Right now Wandavision has three villains / possible villains:

Wanda
Hayward
and Agatha.
We're two-to-three episodes away from the end of the series, i REALLY doubt they're going to pull in someone we've never even met out of the aether and make him suddenly important.
They did kind of do that with Agatha, but she just barely gets a pass due to being a part of the show since the first episode. And we haven't really seen just how fully she's involved.

wait, the "previously on" segments were different then what actually happened? i hadn't noticed, what's different?

Only one, but when Wanda kicks 'Geraldine' out, her subsequent explanation to Vision is differently worded between the episode it happened and the following Previously On segment. (Something along the lines of 'She had to run home' vs. 'She didn't belong'.)

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: Response to Villains

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Ooh, that's clever! It'd be a heck of a reveal for the final two episodes, that Agatha being behind everything was a retcon by Wanda!
I do hope that, at the end of the day, the whole thing is mostly Wanda. Having Agatha being behind EVERYTHING is a bit of a cop-out that takes away from the themes of the series. But maybe that's what their going for. Episode 8 ends up like a cop-out that takes away from the themes of the series--only to show right at the end that, no, it WAS Wanda all along, and she has to confront that. That would be awesome.

Spoiler

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100% agree. that'd be the way to go for sure

[Bugbear]

Spoiler: BigBad

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Sure.....Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Umar, The Stranger, Eternity, Immortus, and Kang just flat out don't exist in the MCU, and none of them are at all relevant to the current story.

But that does not mean anything. Nothing existed in the MCU until suddenly something did.

See, by the magic of storytelling they can have an actor walk on set, say they are "Chthon", say they exist in the MCU and are relevant to the story.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler: BigBad

Show

... But none of them are at all relevant to the current story. Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Umar, The Stranger, Eternity, Immortus, and Kang just flat out don't exist in the MCU, and if Dormammu ever makes a repappearance, it'll probably involve Dr.Strange in some way.

Right now Wandavision has three villains / possible villains:

Wanda
Hayward
and Agatha.
We're two-to-three episodes away from the end of the series, i REALLY doubt they're going to pull in someone we've never even met out of the aether and make him suddenly important.
They did kind of do that with Agatha, but she just barely gets a pass due to being a part of the show since the first episode. And we haven't really seen just how fully she's involved.

Spoiler

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Counterpoint: "Pietro" is up to something and is not obviously working for any of the others.

[Cikomyr2]

Actually..

Spoiler: Rambling Theory

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I like the "Agnes is Wanda's scapegoat of a villain"

What if Wanda is currently actually splitting across multiple incarnation of herself? Like.. She is at a nexus in her life. From now will emerge many versions of herself. The villain, the mother, the innocent.

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: BigBad

Show

Sure.....Mephisto, Nightmare, Chthon, Umar, The Stranger, Eternity, Immortus, and Kang just flat out don't exist in the MCU, and none of them are at all relevant to the current story.

But that does not mean anything. Nothing existed in the MCU until suddenly something did.

See, by the magic of storytelling they can have an actor walk on set, say they are "Chthon", say they exist in the MCU and are relevant to the story.

Spoiler

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but you see, they need to be relevant to the story is the thing. meaning that they need to be a prominent and influential part of said story since the story's beginning. You can absolutely have a story where one of those characters is introduced as the primary villain, but there is this little thing called "Setup" that needs to happen first. You don't just drop a villain in the third act and expect things to work out. The villain needs to cause a problem, the characters need to discover the problem, they need to discover the villain, they need to overcome obstacles and then the villain needs to show up

You wouldn't have the first six Harry Potter books be exactly the same, and then in the seventh book suddenly introduce "Dedric and Unchaned" who is 10x more powerful then Voldemort, is the one who gave Voldemort all his powers, the one who ACTUALLY killed Harry's parents, is ACTUALLY Voldemort's older brother, and then have the entire plot of the story shift to stopping Dedric the Unchained from overturning the Ministry into an evil pop studio while abandoning the entire Voldemort story altogether. That's what we in the business call "Bad writing".

[Bugbear]

Spoiler: The Big Bad

Show

It is true that if your using classic "good" storytelling you would want everything in the show to be relevant, make sense, and would have a set up.

But that is only for a good "classic storytelling" show.

Most modern shows are more "ticking clock" and "mystery box" and utterly don't care about anything. They just toss stuff together and say "watch the show".

So for them to pull Nightmare out of nowhere and say "Wow, what a twist!" would be a normal thing to do. And they will pat themselves on the back endless as they "surprised" all the viewers.

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: The Big Bad

Show

It is true that if your using classic "good" storytelling you would want everything in the show to be relevant, make sense, and would have a set up.

But that is only for a good "classic storytelling" show.

Most modern shows are more "ticking clock" and "mystery box" and utterly don't care about anything. They just toss stuff together and say "watch the show".

So for them to pull Nightmare out of nowhere and say "Wow, what a twist!" would be a normal thing to do. And they will pat themselves on the back endless as they "surprised" all the viewers.

Spoiler

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The viewers won't be surprised they'll be confused.

who is nightmare?
what's his deal?
why should i care about him?
When was this guy relevent?
How does this make any sense?
When can we get back to the plot i.e. Wanda
How does this ruin everything we've been taught up until this point?
where did he come from?
Why is he showing up in the last / second-to-last episode?
Why should i ever watch any marvel property again if they're just going to pull stuff like this?
Who the heck is this guy?
Who cares about this guy?
How is this at all helpful to the plot?
What about the actual problem that has been built up until this point?
Will the current plot be dropped to fellate this random newcomer?
What the heck?
How does this make any sense?
Why does he need to be involved? Everything was fine without him
etc
etc
etc


confusing your audience to the point of nobody caring about the show or your future properties is just flat out bad business.

[Psyren]

Spoiler

Show

but you see, they need to be relevant to the story is the thing. meaning that they need to be a prominent and influential part of said story since the story's beginning. You can absolutely have a story where one of those characters is introduced as the primary villain, but there is this little thing called "Setup" that needs to happen first. You don't just drop a villain in the third act and expect things to work out. The villain needs to cause a problem, the characters need to discover the problem, they need to discover the villain, they need to overcome obstacles and then the villain needs to show up

You wouldn't have the first six Harry Potter books be exactly the same, and then in the seventh book suddenly introduce "Dedric and Unchaned" who is 10x more powerful then Voldemort, is the one who gave Voldemort all his powers, the one who ACTUALLY killed Harry's parents, is ACTUALLY Voldemort's older brother, and then have the entire plot of the story shift to stopping Dedric the Unchained from overturning the Ministry into an evil pop studio while abandoning the entire Voldemort story altogether. That's what we in the business call "Bad writing".

Except this isn't the "seventh book." Wanda's story very clearly doesn't end here, certainly not the way Harry's did.

[Rodin]

I don't have time to go through the spoilers and check right now, but did anyone else notice in the opening credits?

Spoiler: Episode 7

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One of the "Wanda" flashes is a blink and you'll miss it set of fridge magnets spelling out "I know what you're doing Wanda".

[Draconi Redfir]

Except this isn't the "seventh book." Wanda's story very clearly doesn't end here, certainly not the way Harry's did.

Next episode will be episode eight of a nine-episode series.

we're pretty dang close.

[Eldan]

It's more "last chapter of book 1" than "last book". There will be more shows and movies with Wanda.

[Draconi Redfir]

WandaVision though is only going on for one season. introducing a new villain to WandaVision at the tail end of WandaVision is just flat out a bad idea.

introduce it after the credits of the final episode sure, as some other force doing other things that is maybe interested in wanda, happened tons of times before.

but don't leave it in WandaVision as part of WandaVision that is directly responsible for WandaVision right as WandaVision is closing up. That's not going to help anyone.

[Psyren]

Next episode will be episode eight of a nine-episode series.

we're pretty dang close.

I'm aware of that But MCU Phase 4 is more than a single TV series. A few unanswered questions at the end of one won't be the end of the world.

[Bugbear]

WandaVision though is only going on for one season. introducing a new villain to WandaVision at the tail end of WandaVision is just flat out a bad idea.

And how often have shows done bad ideas? Oh...look...thousands of times.

You might think it's 'right' for show to put hints in the show to 'set up' something like a villain or any other 'surprise character'. That the show should 'make sense'.

Unfortunately a huge number of people making shows don't think that way. They think more like "ok, we will do more then half the season of nostalgic cool hip classic TV show settings...you know we will utterly waste screen time watching Wanda cook..and we will just do random mystery box pointless stuff, as people will just eat that up: everyone loves the mystery box. And then right at the end, wham, bam, zinngo, we will toss in our random villain...Nightmare! WHAT A TWIST!

Then they can sit back all happy and move on to the next show and put on their resume "we are so cool we tricked and fooled millions of viewers.....but made the show tons of money.....and we can do it again for your show and company".

[Tyndmyr]

but you see, they need to be relevant to the story is the thing. meaning that they need to be a prominent and influential part of said story since the story's beginning. You can absolutely have a story where one of those characters is introduced as the primary villain, but there is this little thing called "Setup" that needs to happen first. You don't just drop a villain in the third act and expect things to work out. The villain needs to cause a problem, the characters need to discover the problem, they need to discover the villain, they need to overcome obstacles and then the villain needs to show up

Dunno, worked out pretty good for the Emperor in Star Wars. He wasn't even in the first movie, and Luke doesn't meet him until the tail end of the third, right?

[BRC]

Dunno, worked out pretty good for the Emperor in Star Wars. He wasn't even in the first movie, and Luke doesn't meet him until the tail end of the third, right?

He didn't appear, but his existence was a known factor. They were fighting "The Emperor", I believe he was mentioned at least. Vader was never presented as anything more than a flunky for the Big Bad.

The Emperor was always present in the story and highly relevant, even if he didn't actually appear on screen until later.

[Wookieetank]

Spoiler: Monica

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For Monica pushing through into the Hex, I saw it less as she knew what was going to happen and more as wanting to get to Wanda before Hayward did. If she didn't push on through, she'd be leaving Wanda to Hayward's whims, and Wanda not knowing why he's so interested in Vision. Pretty sure Wanda can take Hayward without breaking a sweat, but his inclinations towards force as a solution does add decent tension with who could get caught in the crossfire.

[Rodin]

He didn't appear, but his existence was a known factor. They were fighting "The Emperor", I believe he was mentioned at least. Vader was never presented as anything more than a flunky for the Big Bad.

The Emperor was always present in the story and highly relevant, even if he didn't actually appear on screen until later.

He also appears in Empire, setting him up as the villain in Return.

Which is kind of what we're saying here.

Spoiler

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Say a character appears briefly, is revealed to be a villain above Agatha. He pisses off and gets dealt with in Doctor Strange or another movie further down the line. That's perfectly all right.

If Agatha really does turn out to be behind it all - that's okay. She's been in the show from the first episode and making her the villain is a twist that quite a few saw coming. I didn't see it, but I rarely do.

What wouldn't be okay is for a villain to announce himself now and make the final couple episodes about him. The show hasn't been about him, his existence hasn't even been hinted at.

Personally, I'm hoping for the "it's still Wanda" reveal. The whole story has been about Wanda dealing with her grief, and aspects of the sitcom have always been dictated by her subconscious. Making Agatha into her subconscious would be a really cool double twist that maintains the themes the show has been pushing. Having an external villain now would be a bit of a letdown.

[Mordar]

WandaVision though is only going on for one season. introducing a new villain to WandaVision at the tail end of WandaVision is just flat out a bad idea.

introduce it after the credits of the final episode sure, as some other force doing other things that is maybe interested in wanda, happened tons of times before.

but don't leave it in WandaVision as part of WandaVision that is directly responsible for WandaVision right as WandaVision is closing up. That's not going to help anyone.

I'm aware of that But MCU Phase 4 is more than a single TV series. A few unanswered questions at the end of one won't be the end of the world.

I do not believe this should be viewed as a story in and of itself, and not even necessarily as a book, but rather as a prologue to the broader phase/arc/whatever that is on the horizon.

There is a tried and true trick in television where the villain is the pawn of someone else, and that someone else is the cliffhanger. For a supernatural enemy, MCU fans (and particularly the casual fans) might need more than a quick post-credit scene to set up the villain. Sure, 90% of the MCU viewers didn't know who Thanos was...but "warlord bent on gathering power to conquer (or something) the universe" doesn't need a lot of careful explanation. Any supernatural threat worthy of taking the lead in the next phase probably will.

So think of WandaVision as Avengers (first film). Agatha is Loki...and we get a longer look at [UNNAMED] so we have the opportunity to get better positioned for all this weird magic/supernatural/not-pseudo-sciencey next wave.

- M