WandaVision

[Psyren]

Captain Marvel is the next option...we see dramatic proficiency growth with her power set in her core movie, but that was probably just for expedience, not meant to indicate she is either learning or they are operating independently.

Technically the Kree were training her powers, albeit with the goal of keeping them clamped down except when they needed her to do war crimes, and her compliant/reliant on them. Certainly Carol got more training than Wanda ever did, even if most of that was just around keeping her emotions in check.

And of course, there's the nature of Wanda's powers themselves. "Chaos" is right there in the name after all, so full control is likely to be much more difficult, and may even be impossible.

I think there is an interesting discussion to be held about culpability of the character in similar situations, but seems maybe a little too far afield for this thread. In short, what should be the responsibility of the host (for lack of a better word) when the powers present in that host, for whatever reason, act independent of conscious control?

It's a complicated question to be sure. At a minimum I'd expect Wanda to do what she did at the end - isolate herself as much as possible and read the chapter that describes what she is.

I would definitely want her to check in with Doctor Strange, but again, we have no idea if she knows who that is or not. As they'll meet in the movie, I expect several questions to be answered then.

So, I reject several points of your argument.

1. You assume that those of us in what you term "the pro wanda camp" are also in the "Thanos was right because he loves his daughter". To use your actual words: "These same people who were really on the lookout for Marvel giving a pass to abusers to the point they were practically seeing ghosts where there were none are now conspicuously absent. " I can speak for myself when I say that is not true. Nor does you claiming it to be true make it true. You are creating a false equivalency that simply doesn't exist and you have no evidence it exists beyond your vague assertions. Stop outright lying about what our points are, it doesn't help your argument.

2. You keep describing Wanda with terms like "just going through a rough time, and your emotions just got a bit the better of you, and you really didn't know your strength and promise to never do it again" which are insultingly minimalizing of the truth of the character and language couched to make it seem absurd when it isn't. She isn't going through a rough time. She is experiencing a full on trauma induced dissociative identity disorder event. If your level of understanding and are so devoid of understanding and sympathy of a person or character with these kind of mental issues is so immature and minimalistic then there's no wonder you don't understand our point of view. And frankly makes me glad I only interact with you on a message board and not in real life.

3. Despite ALL of that, you keep stating that we "want to give her a total pass" which, frankly, -we- (by we I mean me, as I'm only going to speak for myself) which we don't. There is a huge difference between wanting to see her get some help that would actually HELP vs a punishment that would only serve to make it worse or retrigger her back into another DID state.

*applause.gif*

[Ronnoc]

So, I reject several points of your argument.


2. You keep describing Wanda with terms like "just going through a rough time, and your emotions just got a bit the better of you, and you really didn't know your strength and promise to never do it again" which are insultingly minimalizing of the truth of the character and language couched to make it seem absurd when it isn't. She isn't going through a rough time. She is experiencing a full on trauma induced dissociative identity disorder event. If your level of understanding and are so devoid of understanding and sympathy of a person or character with these kind of mental issues is so immature and minimalistic then there's no wonder you don't understand our point of view. And frankly makes me glad I only interact with you on a message board and not in real life.

Gallowglass, I do agree with the vast majority of your post and that Wanda is clearly experiencing a trauma induced mental breakdown. That said I'd strongly recommend you not characterize it as dissociative identity disorder as that disorder is poorly characterized statistically and doesn't match Wanda's situation per the DSM-5. In general attributing specific diagnosis to a character is a bad idea.

[Gallowglass]

Gallowglass, I do agree with the vast majority of your post and that Wanda is clearly experiencing a trauma induced mental breakdown. That said I'd strongly recommend you not characterize it as dissociative identity disorder as that disorder is poorly characterized statistically and doesn't match Wanda's situation per the DSM-5. In general attributing specific diagnosis to a character is a bad idea.

Attributing a diagnosis is a real person is a bad idea.

Wanda is a fictional character. i would never characterize a real person in a post on a forum about a funny comic, but I'm fine doing it with a fictional character. Especially when the Actress and Show creators have talked about the same thing.

That being said, short of using the commonplace pop-psychology terms to explain my point of view, communicating them gets difficult. I will attempt to couch my couching even couchier.

[BRC]

Gallowglass, I do agree with the vast majority of your post and that Wanda is clearly experiencing a trauma induced mental breakdown. That said I'd strongly recommend you not characterize it as dissociative identity disorder as that disorder is poorly characterized statistically and doesn't match Wanda's situation per the DSM-5. In general attributing specific diagnosis to a character is a bad idea.

Is it valid to say, without getting into specific diagnosis, that Wanda is undergoing some sort of trauma induced mental breakdown that makes her incapable of recognizing the situation (The Hex) for what it is?

Like, it's tricky to draw the line between "Wanda didn't acknowledge the Hex because she chose not to" vs "Wanda was literally incapable of recognizing the Hex, since she was going through a mental breakdown at the time".

We still don't get "The Moment Wanda became Aware of what was happening and had the choice to stop it", but psychology is tricky without literal reality warping magic getting involved, and it might not be as clean as all that?


There's also the question of Capability vs Ability.

Like, let's say Wanda became fully aware of the Hex during the Halloween episode. She chose to expand it, indicating that at that point, at least, she was fully capable of recognizing "I am living in a pocket dimension created by my power"

She then spends the next episode in a depressive haze, then panicking about her children, then forced to relive her lifetime of trauma by Agatha, then in a fight with Agatha.

One could be generous and assume that after Wanda became properly Aware of the Hex, she was never in a mental state to think about the implications until she was directly confronted with them.

[Ronnoc]

The implications of Wanda's awareness and moral agency regarding the Hex are largely an open question. I'd agree that by the Halloween episode she's clearly aware of and capable of manipulating the Hex and thus has a responsibility regarding it. Generally speaking I am very sympathetic regarding Wanda's situation and state of mind but don't believe that impacts her culpability. I'm sorry for the character and hope things improve for her but that doesn't change the harm she's done.

[Ramza00]

Changes the subject, but in my opinion the writting of the show was extremely tight 60% of the time, arguably 80 to 90% of the time, and then fell flat at the very end.

So a question for the readers of this thread,

• Of the 9 episodes, if you could pick 3 episodes to rewrite which of the 3 would you rewrite? What is your A, B, and C, episodes that need a rewrite?
• Or 2nd choice, you can rewrite 1 episode and then get a 10th episode (which can be inserted anywhere in the story) where would you do A + D?

_{[the show was originally planned to be 10 episodes but was changed to 9]}

Please make it clear which episodes you would rewrite, or rewrite one plus add another at the top of your thread even if you are going to go in details of the why, what, and how

Also remember these rewrites can be adding new Sitcom Homages to the show ( or perhaps some horror , a thriller, a parody or other genres )

[Dragonus45]

Except where that article fails is that it's equating intentional acts with unintentional powers run amok.

"Honestly, I didn't mean to hurt you. I couldn't control myself, I promise I have things under control now and I'll never hurt you again. I really do promise."

Even the example of so-called "story karma" it uses, Walter White letting a girl choke to death so he can get his drug-making partner-in-crime back on his team, was a conscious decision on Walter's part. Whether it was murder or just negligence, it was undeniably premeditated and the show frames it as such. Making the Hex was not for Wanda, the show goes out of its way to show this (and even have our audience stand-in openly state it), and that makes a massive difference.

What does premeditation matter? She caused real lasting and deep harm through manipulation, control, and literal torture of an entire town. "Oops I'm sowwy" only goes so far.

And again I say, the universe confirmed no such thing.

Not at all relevant to what I said, respond to my actual point eventually please.

What we saw is that he murdered his daughter and got the stone.

Not at all relevant to what I said, respond to my actual point eventually please.

The stone's authority on the subject of love, or the specific criteria it looks for in conjunction with that word, or even the Red Skull's own understanding of the process, are still matters of debate.

Probably not, we have no reason to think they were being unreliable narrators at that point. Also. Not at all relevant to what I said, respond to my actual point eventually please.

And if that last sentence doesn't describe both Thanos and Wanda, why is Thanos even being brought up? He had no "emotions get the better of him." Everything he does is premeditated - like Walter, and unlike Wanda.

Well, to follow the structure of the paragraph there, having a sentence criticizing people defending Wands, followed by me paraphrasing the people defending Wanda's actions in a manner more reminiscent of what an abuser might say when they are done hurting someone and want to cast off the blame for what they did because that is exactly how I see Wanda and her actions probably doesn't need all that much explanation. But there you go.

So, I reject several points of your argument.

1. You assume that those of us in what you term "the pro wanda camp" are also in the "Thanos was right because he loves his daughter". To use your actual words: "These same people who were really on the lookout for Marvel giving a pass to abusers to the point they were practically seeing ghosts where there were none are now conspicuously absent. " I can speak for myself when I say that is not true. Nor does you claiming it to be true make it true. You are creating a false equivalency that simply doesn't exist and you have no evidence it exists beyond your vague assertions. Stop outright lying about what our points are, it doesn't help your argument.

No, that isn't what I said at all. Like this?

You assume that those of us in what you term "the pro wanda camp" are also in the "Thanos was right because he loves his daughter".

That is actually, explicitly, the opposite of what I said even. I'm saying the people in the "The story was wrong to have a plot device say Thanos loved the daughter he abused and were mad about it." crowd who were almost literally chasing a figment of their imagination with a take that bad are by and large now suddenly defending Wanda and her abuse. I'm saying that's kinda hypocritical and a massive double standard.

2. You keep describing Wanda with terms like "just going through a rough time, and your emotions just got a bit the better of you, and you really didn't know your strength and promise to never do it again" which are insultingly minimalizing of the truth of the character and language couched to make it seem absurd when it isn't. She isn't going through a rough time. She is experiencing a full on trauma induced dissociative identity disorder event. If your level of understanding and are so devoid of understanding and sympathy of a person or character with these kind of mental issues is so immature and minimalistic then there's no wonder you don't understand our point of view. And frankly makes me glad I only interact with you on a message board and not in real life.

Yea, and trying to claim that literally any of that somehow mitigates the harm she did? Worthless.

Or the sheer absurdity of the show trying to frame her as somehow really just a victim as well and how the people she tortured and violated the minds of should be understanding of how sad she was when she did it and how congratulatory Monica is towards her for her bold decisions to... not keep enslaving them to maintain her conjured family. Yea, nothing suspect there at all.

3. Despite ALL of that, you keep stating that we "want to give her a total pass" which, frankly, -we- (by we I mean me, as I'm only going to speak for myself) which we don't. There is a huge difference between wanting to see her get some help that would actually HELP vs a punishment that would only serve to make it worse or retrigger her back into another DID state.

The show DOES give her a total pass in almost every layer of it's framing and plot devices. Also, saying she should get some help is a pretty nebulous statement. Near as I can tell the best help she could get would be the Sorcerer Supreme stripper her of her power and sending her away if she was clearly so incapable of conscious control over it that it means she gets a pass on any punishment for the enslavement and mental violation of an entire town.

I wouldn't say that

I would say, instead, that the finale sidesteps the very real question of culpability by dancing around it.

So, "Framed to try" is probably accurate, as opposed to directly trying to Absolve Wanda.


We know that Wanda isn't down for trapping people in a horrible waking nightmare. We're told, via Monica, that Wanda's motivations are understandable, but that's not the same thing as being Justified, or Wanda being Guiltless.

Wanda gets to be the Act 3 MCU Hero in her fight scene. Wanda gets to loudly affirm that she is taking control of her own destiny.

None of which explicitly says "You, the audience, shouldn't blame Wanda for what she did", but is a little jarring.

I would add that the only authority figure interested in any kind of justice or proactive solution got framed as a literal clown running a circus and the plot did everything it it's power to have that authority figure act in the shadiest and most bad faith manner possible the entire time.

I've probably missed it in a couple pages, but could somebody reiterate for me (Or point me to) the evidence that the creation, and maintence of the Hex, was not a conscious decision on Wanda's Part?

The situation seems complicated, Wanda seemed to be in a position where she just really wanted something with a real sense of desperation and her power filled in the blanks to cast the Hex. She seemed to have some idea what was going on, and her comment about how everyone in the town should have been happy seemed to indicate a degree of understanding in what she intended of not what she had done considering the terrible nightmares and pain people were suffering.

As I interpreted it. Wanda did not intentionally create the Hex, she stood, crying in an empty lot, and then stood in wonder as the hex was constructed around her, but she did consciously maintain, defend, and play along with it.

She ejected Monica when she recognized the SWORD necklace, she stormed out to confront Haywood, and she later intentionally expanded the bounds of the Hex. All these seemed to be conscious actions done with full intention and full awareness.

In the Finale, Wanda expresses that she thought the residents of Westview were "At peace", unaware of what was happening.

All of which says to me that Wanda spent the whole time, while not fully aware of what was happening (Unaware that the residents were not at peace, unaware that "Agnes" was not just another actor under her spell), she was in possession of her memories, and had some idea of the basics (That her power had turned the town of Westview into a sitcom themed fantasy for her to live in).

She was traumatized, and living in denial, so she never acknowledged those memories, and gladly played along with the sitcom scenario/ domestic fantasy as much as she could, but I didn't see any hard evidence that she was unaware of the basic nature of the Hex, or incapable of ending it if she so chose.

That's mostly my read, and remember she even willingly expanded it herself later on.

[Psyren]

The implications of Wanda's awareness and moral agency regarding the Hex are largely an open question. I'd agree that by the Halloween episode she's clearly aware of and capable of manipulating the Hex and thus has a responsibility regarding it. Generally speaking I am very sympathetic regarding Wanda's situation and state of mind but don't believe that impacts her culpability. I'm sorry for the character and hope things improve for her but that doesn't change the harm she's done.

No one is denying the harm she has done (certainly I'm not.) The question on the table is what the response to that harm should be.

From a purely ethical and legal standpoint, intent and control do matter when it comes to punishing or otherwise responding to harm. This is why murder and manslaughter carry different charges and get different sentences in most jurisdictions.

And from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the simple fact is that the judicial system (certainly the one used by the MCU, which appears analogous to our own) is not equipped to properly deal with... well, any witch, much less The Scarlet Witch. All we do know is that (a) the actions performed by her powers weren't intentional and (b) they were triggered by trauma, so tossing her in prison is very, very likely to do more harm than good in the long run, and certainly won't deter her power from committing acts that she couldn't control in the first place. Executing her might be a deterrent, if that's even possible, but given that her title was mentioned in the same breath as "The Sorcerer Supreme", it's possible that not having her around would be just as bad.

In short, there are too many unknowns for death to be on the table, and nothing else is likely to be an effective deterrent or mitigant based on what we do know.

"Honestly, I didn't mean to hurt you. I couldn't control myself, I promise I have things under control now and I'll never hurt you again. I really do promise."

While abusers often use lines like this to gaslight their victims, it's actually true in Wanda's case. Do you disagree? If so, we can just end here at an impasse and go on with our lives, rather than continue to waste our mutual time.

[BRC]

I would add that the only authority figure interested in any kind of justice or proactive solution got framed as a literal clown running a circus and the plot did everything it it's power to have that authority figure act in the shadiest and most bad faith manner possible the entire time.

So, this is one place where the show has left itself wiggle room with a lack of clarity.

Haywood, portrayed as a cruel general ripper type who only cares about getting a shiny new murderbot, does try to attack and kill Wanda.

This could be interpreted as "Haywood wants to bring down the Hex, and thinks killing Wanda is the best way to do that" OR "Haywood just wants to get his murderbot online, and wants to kill Wanda to cover up his own crimes".

Monica and Co. try to get in contact with Wanda to convince her to bring down the Hex.

This could be interpreted as "Monica and Co. Want to bring down the Hex, but see talking to Wanda as the best solution, since trying to assassinate a reality warper with unknown capabilities in an unknown state of mind is likely to just make things worse"

OR it could be interpreted as "Monica and Co. are prioritizing Wanda's wellbeing over that of the people of Westview"


The fact is, none of the above characters really have any idea what's going on, or what solution might work. So it's hard to argue that Monica and Co are being pragmatic, rather than recklessly sympathetic.


The whole issue doesn't really come up. Haywood is given another Agenda, Monica is barely given a chance to TALK to Wanda. If both sides are just pursuing the approach they think is most likely to resolve the situation quickly and with the least lasting harm, that's never really outlined. We get pulled into "You just want to kill a superhero" "You're too soft, and refuse to kill a superhero" instead of any debate on whether Killing The Superhero is a workable option here.

[Dragonus45]

While abusers often use lines like this to gaslight their victims, it's actually true in Wanda's case. Do you disagree? If so, we can just end here at an impasse and go on with our lives, rather than continue to waste our mutual time.

I think it's mostly if not true of her, at first I think it was just her losing control to some degree although I do think she had some understanding of what was going on. How could she have responded the way she did to the Bee Keeper or Monica the way she did otherwise? After she became fully aware of what was really going on, sometime between the first SWORD agent she made contact with and when she booted Monica is my best she might of felt bad about it, but she really did know best after all and everyone in the house... I mean the town is happy and she knows best anyways. Sure to no small degree she was acting out of response to her traumas and stresses in life and perhaps really didn't understand the full amount of damage she could do or was doing. This might just be me looking at things from the perspective of the abusive relationships I've been in, but I feel like that's true of all but one of my abusers as well. Profoundly ****ed up people with serious issues that controlled and trapped them who ultimately probably never meant me the harm they did but they sure as **** did it anyways that matters a whole hell of a lot more then any of the rest of it.

[Tyndmyr]

So a question for the readers of this thread,
[LIST][*]Of the 9 episodes, if you could pick 3 episodes to rewrite which of the 3 would you rewrite? What is your A, B, and C, episodes that need a rewrite?

Hmm, this is an interesting hypothetical. My first choice of a rewrite would be the finale. I feel like that could be made epic fairly easily, with probably a single pass, and would most solidly impact the entire series.

My second choice would be the...fourth episode? The one way Hayward first arrives. Giving some additional background on him to make him less mustache twirling and giving him some motivations for his actions would help.

Third choice is to rewrite the penultimate episode. It isn't bad, but it's a LOT of walk and talk. There needs to be less Agatha just showing things, and more actual confrontation.

[Ronnoc]

No one is denying the harm she has done (certainly I'm not.) The question on the table is what the response to that harm should be.

From a purely ethical and legal standpoint, intent and control do matter when it comes to punishing or otherwise responding to harm. This is why murder and manslaughter carry different charges and get different sentences in most jurisdictions.

And from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the simple fact is that the judicial system (certainly the one used by the MCU, which appears analogous to our own) is not equipped to properly deal with... well, any witch, much less The Scarlet Witch. All we do know is that (a) the actions performed by her powers weren't intentional and (b) they were triggered by trauma, so tossing her in prison is very, very likely to do more harm than good in the long run, and certainly won't deter her power from committing acts that she couldn't control in the first place. Executing her might be a deterrent, if that's even possible, but given that her title was mentioned in the same breath as "The Sorcerer Supreme", it's possible that not having her around would be just as bad.

In short, there are too many unknowns for death to be on the table, and nothing else is likely to be an effective deterrent or mitigant based on what we do know.

Given Agatha's, "It's your destiny to destroy the world." line immediately after the Sorcerer Supreme comparison I'd say that's an argument in favour of execution. I'd prefer we not go that route, I like Wanda, and would like a redemption arc for her.

That said there would be some fascinating parallels between Wanda's unchecked power making her a risk to the world and the situation between her and Vision at the end of Infinity War. In both cases you have someone empowered by a stone posing an existential risk having to make a choice on whether to lay down their lives to save everyone. The difference being that one risk is external (Thanos) and one is internal (rampant chaos magic).

[Mordar]

Changes the subject, but in my opinion the writting of the show was extremely tight 60% of the time, arguably 80 to 90% of the time, and then fell flat at the very end.

So a question for the readers of this thread,

• Of the 9 episodes, if you could pick 3 episodes to rewrite which of the 3 would you rewrite? What is your A, B, and C, episodes that need a rewrite?
• Or 2nd choice, you can rewrite 1 episode and then get a 10th episode (which can be inserted anywhere in the story) where would you do A + D?

_{[the show was originally planned to be 10 episodes but was changed to 9]}

Please make it clear which episodes you would rewrite, or rewrite one plus add another at the top of your thread even if you are going to go in details of the why, what, and how

Also remember these rewrites can be adding new Sitcom Homages to the show ( or perhaps some horror , a thriller, a parody or other genres )

Will have to review the episodes, but I think from my posts it is clear I want the SWORD/"outside Westview" segments addressed. Not sure if Ep4 would be enough to fix things, so I'd want to review if I would prefer Ep4 + Add Ep10 or rewrite 3 episodes.

I think we're really missing the Simpsons, Cosby, and though not quite family sitcomy, something like Saved by the Bell or 90210.

Cosby should be easy...Simpsons less so because of the different kinds of dysfunction required.

- M

[Ramza00]

Hmm, this is an interesting hypothetical. My first choice of a rewrite would be the finale. I feel like that could be made epic fairly easily, with probably a single pass, and would most solidly impact the entire series.

My second choice would be the...fourth episode? The one way Hayward first arrives. Giving some additional background on him to make him less mustache twirling and giving him some motivations for his actions would help.

Third choice is to rewrite the penultimate episode. It isn't bad, but it's a LOT of walk and talk. There needs to be less Agatha just showing things, and more actual confrontation.

Interesting! 🤔

My instinct is the 4th, 8th, and 9th episodes were the weakest. I am not saying those are the ones to rewrite yet. (Obviously the 9th episode needs some massage work, so it is A )

And I really liked episode 4, there are some great moments here. But I am not sure it nailed the flow between 3 and 5. We did need a perspective shift here, which I am glad episode 4 provided, but I am not sure if episode 4 is the most need to be change if I must limit myself to only 3 episodes changes.

Episode 8 was “functional” but it too felt off. Emily the media critic who writes for online websites, the author of the article I linked to earlier was trying to process what she watched after episode 8. On her twitter she was wondering how would the story be changed if 4 and 8 were switched and we got Wanda flashbacks in 4, but also explanation of what created the Hex, but also this would mean the audience barely knew what was happening with Sword besides Wanda meeting Hayward.

I do not have the answer yet of my personal changes, thus me asking the question

Cosby should be easy

- M

I am uncomfortable with the Cosby show (the 2 of them plus the animated one) as the main template due to real world stuff. I would be fine with some Cosby stuff being incorporated with a house that did not feel like the Cosby house as the set background.

But good choices Mordar. It would never happen, but if we had a Wanda vs Agatha witches battle and they went through dozens of sitcoms while they magic fight, I would love a moment of The Simpsons, and the kids arguing like Niles and Frasier in Agatha’s house right before they stole the book. (The demon bunny familiar scene that was cut at the last minute, even though it was filmed, due to special effects crunch.)

[Ronnoc]

Changes the subject, but in my opinion the writting of the show was extremely tight 60% of the time, arguably 80 to 90% of the time, and then fell flat at the very end.

So a question for the readers of this thread,

• Of the 9 episodes, if you could pick 3 episodes to rewrite which of the 3 would you rewrite? What is your A, B, and C, episodes that need a rewrite?
• Or 2nd choice, you can rewrite 1 episode and then get a 10th episode (which can be inserted anywhere in the story) where would you do A + D?

_{[the show was originally planned to be 10 episodes but was changed to 9]}

Please make it clear which episodes you would rewrite, or rewrite one plus add another at the top of your thread even if you are going to go in details of the why, what, and how

Also remember these rewrites can be adding new Sitcom Homages to the show ( or perhaps some horror , a thriller, a parody or other genres )

I'd probably go with option B, re-writing the penultimate episode and adding another between it and the finale to spread the pacing a bit more, add the cut Monica and Darcy subplots back in, and balance things a bit more between the threads. I understand why it didn't happen, with the cgi restrictions, and Wanda's arc being the emotional center of the show but I did feel that the supporting cast was done a disservice.

There is admittedly also a part of me that would just re-write the first three episodes. The sitcom schtick at the beginning didn't do it for me and it ran a little long. I realize I'm not the target for those references though and that a lot of people did enjoy them.

[Psyren]

@Rewrites: I genuinely don't know. Depends on where they're going with the metanarrative stuff. Ask me again after DS2, possibly long after.

After she became fully aware of what was really going on, sometime between the first SWORD agent she made contact with and when she booted Monica is my best she might of felt bad about it, but she really did know best after all and everyone in the house.

There is no earthly way that she became "fully aware of what was really going on" that far back. So it seems we disagree fundamentally.

Given Agatha's, "It's your destiny to destroy the world." line immediately after the Sorcerer Supreme comparison I'd say that's an argument in favour of execution. I'd prefer we not go that route, I like Wanda, and would like a redemption arc for her.

That said there would be some fascinating parallels between Wanda's unchecked power making her a risk to the world and the situation between her and Vision at the end of Infinity War. In both cases you have someone empowered by a stone posing an existential risk having to make a choice on whether to lay down their lives to save everyone. The difference being that one risk is external (Thanos) and one is internal (rampant chaos magic).

As you've probably noticed by now, I'm a big fan of using the characters' exact words when discussing my take on the show. Let's look at Agatha's:

"You have no idea how dangerous you are. You're supposed to be a myth! A being capable of spontaneous creation! And here you are, using it to make breakfast for dinner."
...
"Did you know there's an entire chapter devoted to you in the Darkhold? That's the book of the damned. 'The Scarlet Witch is not born, she is forged. She has no coven, no need for incantation.' Your power exceeds that of the Sorcerer Supreme. It's your destiny to destroy the world."

So here's the thing about myths - they're easy to misinterpret. We even already have an example in the MCU - Ragnarok, a myth about the destruction of Asgard and the coming of Hela. Everyone interpreted it one way, even the person it was about (who was also prophesied to have "limitless power", if you'll recall) until it came to pass and it wasn't.

On its face, that line about Wanda is meant to sound pretty bad and create dramatic tension - but taking myths and prophecies at face value is usually not the best idea.

[Ramza00]

Nope Psyren, you do not get away that easily. ^{(Yes I am being a hypocrite here)}

What sitcoms would you have added to the show?

————

PS, before hitting send I realize I do not like the Sitcom Commercials between episodes. I like the idea of them, but they could have been better. Perhaps do more Sitcom homages as commercials like a MASH bit about her childhood “stark” trauma bomb and so on. Introduce her parents as Hawkeye and Margaret Houlihan in one episode and then show them as Wanda’s parents in the Agatha flashback episode. You do not need to just advertise products you can also advertise other Sitcoms, and make it feel more subconscious / dreaming to illustrate lot is happening in Wanda’s mind beside the sitcoms she is acting in and her disassociation with the actual reality. Show not just tell / lack of tell that Wanda was in a fugue state and she did not know she was being a [censored] [censored] to thousands of people.

( like I said before I would rewrite some lines from Episode 9 )

[Ronnoc]

So here's the thing about myths - they're easy to misinterpret. We even already have an example in the MCU - Ragnarok, a myth about the destruction of Asgard and the coming of Hela. Everyone interpreted it one way, even the person it was about (who was also prophesied to have "limitless power", if you'll recall) until it came to pass and it wasn't.

On its face, that line about Wanda is meant to sound pretty bad and create dramatic tension - but taking myths and prophecies at face value is usually not the best idea.

A lot of that boils down to whether we're approaching the analysis from a Watsonian or a Doylist perspective. Out of setting you're completely correct we could rehash Ragnorok or we could handle this more like traditional mythical underpinnings and make subverting fate a noble but ultimately futile goal.

In setting this depends on how much accuracy you assign to the Darkhold, on the one hand it's an eldritch tome of incredibly valuable knowledge, on the other it's the book of the damned with all the potential perfidy that purports.

Long story short in fiction we have tons of tales that highlight the danger of trusting in prophecy but we also have a slew of stories where, "We don't need to worry about the return of Dark Lord X, they're just a myth." goes on the tombstone of the well intentioned act one obstacle.

[GloatingSwine]

Nope Psyren, you do not get away that easily. ^{(Yes I am being a hypocrite here)}

What sitcoms would you have added to the show?

The Simpsons.
How I Met Your Mother.

The Simpsons is literally the sitcom. The one that functionally killed the format because it was so all-encompassingly popular and it turned all the tropes up to 11.

[Mordar]

The Simpsons.
How I Met Your Mother.

The Simpsons is literally the sitcom. The one that functionally killed the format because it was so all-encompassingly popular and it turned all the tropes up to 11.

While I agree with the bolded portion, Big Bang Theory would like to discuss the rest of your post with you. The Office, Parks and Rec, Two and a Half Men all have things to say too.

But yeah, it seems WandaVision could have done a little with How I Met Your Mother extremely easily.

- M

[Ramza00]

But yeah, it seems WandaVision could have done a little with How I Met Your Mother extremely easily.

- M

How I Met Your Mother during the Modern Family episode. Wanda talking to her two kids she does not know where Hex Vision is, and they start talking about how Wanda met Vision.

[Psyren]

Nope Psyren, you do not get away that easily. ^{(Yes I am being a hypocrite here)}

What sitcoms would you have added to the show?

The obvious addition would be Wanda herself leaving the house and entering the workforce rather than being stuck in the homemaker role.

It's likely her power dictated this role for her, which stayed more or less constant through each "era", in order to minimize her contact with the townsfolk - contributing to her (incorrect) sense that everyone was happy.

PS, before hitting send I realize I do not like the Sitcom Commercials between episodes. I like the idea of them, but they could have been better. Perhaps do more Sitcom homages as commercials like a MASH bit about her childhood “stark” trauma bomb and so on. Introduce her parents as Hawkeye and Margaret Houlihan in one episode and then show them as Wanda’s parents in the Agatha flashback episode. You do not need to just advertise products you can also advertise other Sitcoms, and make it feel more subconscious / dreaming to illustrate lot is happening in Wanda’s mind beside the sitcoms she is acting in and her disassociation with the actual reality. Show not just tell / lack of tell that Wanda was in a fugue state and she did not know she was being a [censored] [censored] to thousands of people.

( like I said before I would rewrite some lines from Episode 9 )

There's an interesting point to be raised here. The commercials were clearly her subconscious trying to (a) get her to confront her trauma (Stark, HYDRA, HYDRA, Lagos), warn her of Agatha's danger (Yo-Magic), and finally, process her grief and move on (Nexus). The one thing missing from all of them was the townsfolk themselves. This is yet more evidence that she was unaware, even subconsciously, of the harm she was inflicting.

A lot of that boils down to whether we're approaching the analysis from a Watsonian or a Doylist perspective. Out of setting you're completely correct we could rehash Ragnorok or we could handle this more like traditional mythical underpinnings and make subverting fate a noble but ultimately futile goal.

In setting this depends on how much accuracy you assign to the Darkhold, on the one hand it's an eldritch tome of incredibly valuable knowledge, on the other it's the book of the damned with all the potential perfidy that purports.

Long story short in fiction we have tons of tales that highlight the danger of trusting in prophecy but we also have a slew of stories where, "We don't need to worry about the return of Dark Lord X, they're just a myth." goes on the tombstone of the well intentioned act one obstacle.

Wanda's clear thesis statement during her fight with Agatha is that she - not Agatha, not Hayward, and not some musty old tome - gets to decide what kind of person she is. Monica also reiterates this central theme: "Don't let them turn you into the villain!"

So for them to conclude the metanarrative with "actually they were right, she's destined to be an evil destroyer, they defined her after all" would be a pretty bad move for the MCU.

[Ronnoc]

Wanda's clear thesis statement during her fight with Agatha is that she - not Agatha, not Hayward, and not some musty old tome - gets to decide what kind of person she is. Monica also reiterates this central theme: "Don't let them turn you into the villain!"

So for them to conclude the metanarrative with "actually they were right, she's destined to be an evil destroyer, they defined her after all" would be a pretty bad move for the MCU.

She accepts being a witch like Agatha says in the conclusion of the fight, and proceeds to learn about her power from that musty old tome. I am not saying that her fate is set in stone but there's still room to have some dramatic tension over the question.

[Psyren]

She accepts being a witch like Agatha says in the conclusion of the fight, and proceeds to learn about her power from that musty old tome. I am not saying that her fate is set in stone but there's still room to have some dramatic tension over the question.

Learning from the book and letting it define her are two very different things.

The Ancient One also learned from forbidden magic. In doing so, she kept Earth safe for a very long time, beating back all kinds of cosmic threats before our technology (and biology) evolved enough to be an adequate defense on our own - superheroes, in other words. Had she not done so, we'd have been wiped out in any number of ways before any Avengers even existed.

Again, I'm not saying every consequence of learning from the Darkhold will be a rosy one, but I expect that on the whole we'll be happier she did so than if she had not.

[Ramza00]

The Ancient One also learned from forbidden magic. In doing so, she kept Earth safe for a very long time, beating back all kinds of cosmic threats before our technology (and biology) evolved enough to be an adequate defense on our own - superheroes, in other words. Had she not done so, we'd have been wiped out in any number of ways before any Avengers even existed.

Sounds like you are looking forward to Karl Mordo / Chiwetel Ejiofor.

[Ronnoc]

Sounds like you are looking forward to Karl Mordo / Chiwetel Ejiofor.

Rogue sorcerer who depowers other casters for disrupting the balance? That sounds like a fun conflict although although Wanda may catch some deja vu from his MO :)

[Psyren]

Sounds like you are looking forward to Karl Mordo / Chiwetel Ejiofor.

I've been looking forward to him since DS1

I expect (hope) that, whatever role he plays in DS2, we'll get another badass Hollywood Magic Duel to rival the likes of Dumbledore vs. Voldemort, Gandalf vs. Saruman, Strange vs. Thanos etc.

Given his prior role as an instructor at Kamar-Taj, I expect he might also be able to shed some light on the distinction between Sorcerers and Witches, the Sorcerer Supreme and the Scarlet Witch etc.

[Ramza00]

I've been looking forward to him since DS1

I expect (hope) that, whatever role he plays in DS2, we'll get another badass Hollywood Magic Duel to rival the likes of Dumbledore vs. Voldemort, Gandalf vs. Saruman, Strange vs. Thanos etc.

Given his prior role as an instructor at Kamar-Taj, I expect he might also be able to shed some light on the distinction between Sorcerers and Witches, the Sorcerer Supreme and the Scarlet Witch etc.

Per Thor 3, Dr Strange prefers “Master of the Mystic Arts“, but ... “Mm maybe, Who am I to judge?“

[Ronnoc]

Given that we almost never see sorcerer's use verbal components I propose that their defining feature is metamagic and kamar-taj trains them all in silent spell and eschew materials first

[Tyndmyr]

"Did you know there's an entire chapter devoted to you in the Darkhold? That's the book of the damned. 'The Scarlet Witch is not born, she is forged. She has no coven, no need for incantation.' Your power exceeds that of the Sorcerer Supreme. It's your destiny to destroy the world."

While that sounds awesome...I can't think of a single magic-empowered character that does need incantations. Agatha doesn't appear to need it herself. Strange doesn't. Thor/Loki/Hela don't.

The coven thing doesn't seem like a defining thing in the MCU, either. Yes, Strange learned from the Ancient One and her order, but that is a fairly loose take on "coven" and certainly no other magical entities have anything of the sort.

The forged, not born, is also odd since Wandavision had her power predate the experimentation with the scepter, making her power literally inborn. Yeah, there's the mind stone experimentation, but there's literally half a dozen people in the MCU that have been subjected to that, why does she get forged and nobody else?

It's interesting puffery, but it doesn't convey any actual information.

I understand why it didn't happen, with the cgi restrictions, and Wanda's arc being the emotional center of the show but I did feel that the supporting cast was done a disservice.

It does feel like they needed just a touch more space. All of them had some decent setup initially, but how much did they accomplish?

Darcy may have provided technical support early on, but in the finale she's just...there, pretty much. She doesn't really have much of an arc.

Rambeau, same same. Her arc was apparently setting up her getting powers so she can...incompletely block some bullets fired at children for unclear reasons that they can deal with anyways, and the kids aren't gonna survive the episode regardless. That's, uh, not much impact. It feels stuffed in to justify her being powered in Captain Marvel 2.

Both of these feel like they could have been handled better, and may have been, but the constraints of editing for time hurt them. I'd happily take another couple minutes of screen time to get these ends tied up.