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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    So, the wording of pass without trace:

    Spoiler: "Pass Without Trace
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    A veil of shadows and Silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the Duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its Passage .


    So.. Does it mean I can run over the snow, mud, etc.. Without leaving *any* footprint?

    Could I charge through a mansion without care, and leaving no evidence of my passage whatsoever, despite me not caring a fig about traces I leave behind, like broken doors, ripped curtains, etc..?

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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Does a broken door count as a "trace"?

    Edit- I'd probably say that if you kick in the door there won't be a shoe print on the door, so you won't be able to find any trace that you did it. But a broken door is a broken door.
    Last edited by Mastikator; 2021-01-17 at 07:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    So, the wording of pass without trace:

    Spoiler: "Pass Without Trace
    Show
    A veil of shadows and Silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the Duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its Passage .


    So.. Does it mean I can run over the snow, mud, etc.. Without leaving *any* footprint?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Could I charge through a mansion without care, and leaving no evidence of my passage whatsoever, despite me not caring a fig about traces I leave behind, like broken doors, ripped curtains, etc..?
    That's a more interesting question. I think it more suggests that you do not accidentally scuff any carpets, knock over any vases or lamps, or otherwise cause unintentional marks of your passage to occur. It doesn't let you deliberately break things and not have them be broken, so if you smash through a door without opening it, it stays smashed. It gives you the control needed so you don't do things you don't mean to do that leave telltale signs of your passage, but if you intentionally cause changes to the environment, the spell doesn't unmake them. Otherwise, you also cannot cause harm to any creature (because their corpse and/or injuries might be a "sign of your passage") and can't open doors (because a door changing state would be "a sign of your passage" or pick up anything (because a missing treasure from the vault would be "a sign of your passage").

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Most importantly, Pass Without Trace, eliminates bloody footprints.
    The mayhem you perpetrate, is still visible, but your passage from one locus of mayhem to another is untraceable by non-magical means.

    It can lead to great Horror Movie moments.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Now I have a great scenario running through my head where some fey trickster casts this on a small herd of cattle in the middle of the night then runs them wild through a town. The place is trashed, but nobody saw or heard it occur and there is no sign of who did it or how it happened.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quoz View Post
    Now I have a great scenario running through my head where some fey trickster casts this on a small herd of cattle in the middle of the night then runs them wild through a town. The place is trashed, but nobody saw or heard it occur and there is no sign of who did it or how it happened.
    All those cows would still have to pass a stealth check which in a typical town I’d consider ruling as impossible.

    If it was an atypical town... (It’s written into a plot in a D&D campaign, of course it’s an atypical town) and I did rule it possible, then even at +10, some cow will likely fail.

    Of course some other magic might just help with that

    Edit: what actually happens to any cow pies that might fall during this rampage? Presumably they wouldn’t remain, but... where do they go? Is there some universal dimension for lost and banished things?
    Last edited by Spiritchaser; 2021-01-18 at 08:31 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    It does suggest the possibility of social use. Vagrant adventurers tramping mud and filth through a wealthy merchants house or a royal apartment/receiving room is a common faux pas that this spell will handily avoid. It doesn't exactly make up for having a bath and changing into decent clothing for better reactions, but it could certainly add to a better reputation among the social elite.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
    All those cows would still have to pass a stealth check which in a typical town I’d consider ruling as impossible.
    In fairness, cows have a flat dex so with Pass Without Trace their average stealth roll would be 20 with a minimum of 11. A commoner has a passive perception of 10 so even if we don't apply a modifier for darkness/being asleep/inside (which we probably should) or use the group stealth rules, they're in the clear.

    This of course assumes you can somehow convince the cows to attempt to move stealthily which is a separate issue entirely...
    Last edited by Contrast; 2021-01-18 at 08:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Contrast View Post
    In fairness, cows have a flat dex so with Pass Without Trace their average stealth roll would be 20 with a minimum of 11. A commoner has a passive perception of 10 so even if we don't apply a modifier for darkness/being asleep/inside (which we probably should) or use the group stealth rules, they're in the clear.

    This of course assumes you can somehow convince the cows to attempt to move stealthily which is a separate issue entirely...
    And people consider Speak with Animals a trash spell, smh.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Honestly, I think most DMs would rule that unintentional traces disappear, but if you choose to break down a door then people will notice it was broken.

    Technically not RAW, but that's how I think most DMs would rule.

    However, the best abuse you can get with PWaT is the massive Stealth bonus. Giving everyone in the party an extra round because the enemies will spend their first Turn with the Surprised condition is huge. I'm a big believer that every character should be proficient in Stealth.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    You won't get the cows in a stampede to make stealth checks, but you COULD rustle cattle with this and have all tracking of them indicate they just...disappeared.

    I like the "don't track mud in the house" idea with it.

    Use it as a butler or maid and nobody near you spills any tea, perhaps? Also good for "ninja wait-staff."

    During a burglary, as long as you're sneak-thieving and not smash-and-grabbing, there won't be traces of your picks on locks, accidental doors or windows left open, tracks in the plush carpet (or scuffs on the hardwood floors), no fingerprints (if the setting is sophisticated enough to check for those), and with a +10 to Stealth, you're going to be hard-pressed to be caught.


    New thought: "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection," is the first line of the spell, which raises two questions: Is this veil of shadows and silence notable such that those who do see through your heightened stealth can tell you're obscured by them? Is the "veil of shadows" enough to count as dim lighting (giving Disadvantage on perception checks and allowing Shadow monks to teleport into or out of it)?
    Last edited by Segev; 2021-01-18 at 10:56 AM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    New thought: "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection," is the first line of the spell, which raises two questions: Is this veil of shadows and silence notable such that those who do see through your heightened stealth can tell you're obscured by them? Is the "veil of shadows" enough to count as dim lighting (giving Disadvantage on perception checks and allowing Shadow monks to teleport into or out of it)?
    I would definitely rule "no" on the second part - if it doesn't clearly state that it creates an area of dim light, then it doesn't.

    I'd visualise it as an ethereal veil, covering your body and helping you blend in, but not creating a noticeable darkness nor impending vision. Otherwise, it should make you easier to spot if moving through well-lit areas, since a human-shaped blob of shadow would attract attention.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    New thought: "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection," is the first line of the spell, which raises two questions: Is this veil of shadows and silence notable such that those who do see through your heightened stealth can tell you're obscured by them? Is the "veil of shadows" enough to count as dim lighting (giving Disadvantage on perception checks and allowing Shadow monks to teleport into or out of it)?
    I don't think it's going to count as dim lighting, or as a shadow for "jumping" purposes; that would (or at least should) be noted in the description if that were the intention, but I like the implication that it's an observable phenomenon that aids stealth in the same way that, for instance DPM (aka "camo pattern"), dark clothing or natural (non-magical) dim lighting acts similarly. Could be good for creating that edgelord look for those noticeably not using it for Stealth purposes.

    "Check out my veil of shadow and silence...I'm so edgy and mysterious"

    It's emphatically not Darkness or Silence, so it's not an effect that will be as notable as either to a casual onlooker (there's no immediate cessation of sound or light), but it might well be obvious when someone with an active PWT effect comes near. Muted sounds and colours, textural differences to perception, etc. It's also worth noting that the part of effect that actively stops traces being left might also be an observable phenomenon. Clothes that snag on branches, for instance, will never tear and leave a thread nor will a twig break under foot or stone turn as you pass. Thick carpets don't scuff, nor even compress at your tread. I imagine it being something that you might not actively notice, but still know something is "off" or "wrong" about a person with the effect active. Either that or such things occur, but then magically rectify themselves in your wake, potentially being even more notable to an onlooker. Displaced sand flowing back into place, compressed snow reforming into its pristine fresh-fallen state and so forth.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    It's up to your DM to just make it up why you left no traces and nobody saw you. You roll stealth - if nobody has bigger perception score- you are just undetectable + you leave no tarces. Let DM worry about it.

    Spell does what it says: "A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its Passage". No marks, no foot prints, no hand prints, no hair left, no blood left, no stench, nothing a non-magical detection can trace. It's like you were never there physically.

    Pass Without Trace is very powerful spell, especially if you place it on good chasis.

    My favourite are Mark of Shadow Lore Bard for example. You get Pass Without Trace + Expertise: Stealth.

    With 16 DEX at level 5 you can have +9 to Stealth already, +10 from PWT.

    Meaning that even without EA: Dexterity your minimum Stealth/Hidden roll is 20. Your average roll is 29.5. With advantage it's 34!

    So that means you can just go inside enemy castle/caves/mantion and scout everything becasue there is no way anything will roll Perception high enough on level 5 adventures to detect you.

    Get your second Expertise also in Perception so you can detect traps like a boss. Get Observant feat. Even with 10 WIS you will get +11 to Passsive Perception so passive 21 Perception on level 5.

    Now you can sneak through everything on level 5 and also detect all traps - before your party will step into enemy territory you will already know all rooms, all locations, all enemies, all traps and so on.
    Last edited by Sol0botmate; 2021-01-18 at 11:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Do remember that this only helps if you can hide in the first place, which this does not help with. If you walk out into the open where someone's watching, you're noticed even with an INFINITY+1 Dexterity (Stealth) check.

    This is not invisibility.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2021-01-18 at 11:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol0botmate View Post
    Spell does what it says: "A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its Passage". No marks, no foot prints, no hand prints, no hair left, no blood left, no stench, nothing a non-magical detection can trace. It's like you were never there physically.
    This is what should happen most of the time, but I feel like part of the question is the following: what happen if instead of trying to be stealthy, you cast Pass without Trace and try as much as possible to break the spell by trying to make yourself traceable in some way?
    Practical example: I am a secret traitor in the team, can I reasonably bypass Pass without Trace to allow my allies to track my teammates?

    I see three possible resolutions:
    (1) The spell reverts all your actions fulfilling its role of letting everything unchanged after you. So the doors are repaired, the peoples you talked to forget that they talked to you (because tracking someone through investigation and asking questions to peoples is still tracking with non-magical means), etc.
    (2) The spell prevents you from doing actions that goes too much against it (magically compels you to act stealthily?)
    (3) Traces that you intend to leave behind you are not erased.
    (4) A mix of the three depending on what the DM feels at the moment of the casting of the spell.
    Last edited by MoiMagnus; 2021-01-18 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Do remember that this only helps if you can hide in the first place, which this does not help with. If you walk out into the open where someone's watching, you're noticed even with an INFINITY+1 Dexterity (Stealth) check.

    This is not invisibility.
    Dunno how you play it but we just demand one stealth check for character is planning. If he wants to go ahead and scount enemy complex - he rolls and that is his stealth check for whole operation. And especially in complexes like castles/dungeons etc. there are always ways to hide- dark corners, behind columns and so on. Clever player will always roleplay well how he wants to stay hidden.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    This is what should happen most of the time, but I feel like part of the question is the following: what happen if instead of trying to be stealthy, you cast Pass without Trace and try as much as possible to break the spell by trying to make yourself traceable in some way?
    Practical example: I am a secret traitor in the team, can I reasonably bypass Pass without Trace to allow my allies to track my teammates?

    I see three possible resolutions:
    (1) The spell revert all your actions fulfilling its role of letting everything unchanged after you. So the doors are repaired, the peoples you talked to forget that they talked to you (because tracking someone through investigation and asking questions to peoples is still tracking with non-magical means), etc.
    (2) The spells prevent you from doing actions that goes too much against it (magically compels you to act stealthily?)
    (3) Traces that you intend to let behind you are not erased.
    (4) A mix of the three depending on what the DM feels at the moment of the casting of the spell.
    Since it's MAGIC - any explanation will work. Maybe you can break door but enemies will just think doors were always broken or there is nothing unsual with that? People remember they talked to someone, just they can't get enough details to help investigator? You try to leave behind bread crumbs - they just dissapear. You try to leave mark on walls - they dissapear.

    It's Magic. It's up to DM to say how it looks like, but overall the description of spell is pretty clear. You leave no traces- period. Or traces you left just magically make them impossible to use to trace anyone, especially ones under spell.
    Last edited by Sol0botmate; 2021-01-18 at 12:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    This is what should happen most of the time, but I feel like part of the question is the following: what happen if instead of trying to be stealthy, you cast Pass without Trace and try as much as possible to break the spell by trying to make yourself traceable in some way?
    Practical example: I am a secret traitor in the team, can I reasonably bypass Pass without Trace to allow my allies to track my teammates?

    I see three possible resolutions:
    (1) The spell reverts all your actions fulfilling its role of letting everything unchanged after you. So the doors are repaired, the peoples you talked to forget that they talked to you (because tracking someone through investigation and asking questions to peoples is still tracking with non-magical means), etc.
    (2) The spell prevents you from doing actions that goes too much against it (magically compels you to act stealthily?)
    (3) Traces that you intend to leave behind you are not erased.
    (4) A mix of the three depending on what the DM feels at the moment of the casting of the spell.
    This is an interesting question. The easiest solution for the person who wants to be tracked would be to get outside the AoE to leave his marks. Ironically, the bonus to Stealth would make it easier for him to hide from his companions to get behind them.

    But let's think of this from a Hansel and Gretel perspective: you've been kidnapped by somebody using this spell to obscure their absconding with you. You aren't able to leave the AoE of the spell. Can you leave proverbial or literal breadcrumbs?

    I think, were I DMing it, I'd rule "no," and that circumstances contrive to eliminate your tracks. Drop breadcrumbs, and birds eat them up. Drop stones, and they just won't land or stop rolling until they're no longer making a trail. Try to break twigs, and coincidences lead to other twigs leaving false trails breaking.

    But mechanically, I wouldn't permit somebody under the power of the spellcaster or his allies to "break" the spell's "no tracking" clause. If somebody were sufficiently outside their power to do so, they'd also be sufficiently outside their power to get to the edge of the effect to deliberately leave a trail outside its protections. There's more than a little hand-waving here, but I think that holds to the intent and letter of the spell despite requiring magical contrivance to be part of the spell's effect.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    No, PWoT is not Invisibility, but "Open" space, in an outdoor setting often includes Hills, Trees, Bushes and other obstructions.

    If while you are on the Cattle Raid of Ulster, there are hills between you and the stolen cattle, and any observers, then PWoT is applying to the perception ability check to hear the cattle.

    If you are stampeding cattle down a narrow city street like the running of the bulls in Pamplona, then PWoT is not going to help, once the bulls are obviously visible.

    The issue is, Pamplona and many other medieval cities often have very narrow, convoluted, warrens of different streets and alleys, perfect for losing line of sight.

    I've always been curious between the intention behind this line in the spell:
    For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means.

    Is the intention that affected creatures must stay within 30' of the caster, or are affected creatures free to roam independently, but still have the bonus to Stealth ability checks?

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderous Mojo View Post
    No, PWoT is not Invisibility, but "Open" space, in an outdoor setting often includes Hills, Trees, Bushes and other obstructions.

    If while you are on the Cattle Raid of Ulster, there are hills between you and the stolen cattle, and any observers, then PWoT is applying to the perception ability check to hear the cattle.

    If you are stampeding cattle down a narrow city street like the running of the bulls in Pamplona, then PWoT is not going to help, once the bulls are obviously visible.

    The issue is, Pamplona and many other medieval cities often have very narrow, convoluted, warrens of different streets and alleys, perfect for losing line of sight.

    I've always been curious between the intention behind this line in the spell:
    For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means.

    Is the intention that affected creatures must stay within 30' of the caster, or are affected creatures free to roam independently, but still have the bonus to Stealth ability checks?
    I agree. But you can't just walk through the castle gate in daylight. Or if you open a door with someone watching it, they'll see you.

    So it's a huge help, but not a panacea/can scout anywhere.

    And as to your last line, range only matters when the spell is cast unless it says otherwise. Your choice of targets is limited when you cast it, but it's not an aura. Or at least that's how I read it.
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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderous Mojo View Post
    I've always been curious between the intention behind this line in the spell:
    For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means.

    Is the intention that affected creatures must stay within 30' of the caster, or are affected creatures free to roam independently, but still have the bonus to Stealth ability checks?
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I agree. But you can't just walk through the castle gate in daylight. Or if you open a door with someone watching it, they'll see you.

    So it's a huge help, but not a panacea/can scout anywhere.

    And as to your last line, range only matters when the spell is cast unless it says otherwise. Your choice of targets is limited when you cast it, but it's not an aura. Or at least that's how I read it.
    It expressly states that the spell's medium is a veil of shadows and silence that extends from the caster. Its wording also says nothing about "When you cast..." but rather: "For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means."

    Thus, for the duration, you can choose creatures within 30 feet of you to receive the benefits.

    Both the narrative description of a veil of shadows and silence being responsible for creatures being harder to detect and track, and the choice of wording ("for the duration") for when you select the beneficiaries indicates that it's those who are within 30 feet of you whom you choose to benefit that get the benefit. This also means creatures who leave the AoE would lose the benefits, and creatures who enter it would gain them if you choose to extend them.

    Personally, I would not change the results of stealth checks rolled under its effects even if you left, though, because to me, the stealth check is something that is about getting yourself into a hidden position. Only when I determined that circumstances called for another stealth roll would you lose the benefits for being out of the area. I know this could be gamed in weird ways, but since it's based on DM ruling case by case, I could just start calling for new checks if I felt the gamesmanship was unrealistically modeling stealth.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    But let's think of this from a Hansel and Gretel perspective: you've been kidnapped by somebody using this spell to obscure their absconding with you. You aren't able to leave the AoE of the spell. Can you leave proverbial or literal breadcrumbs?

    I think, were I DMing it, I'd rule "no," and that circumstances contrive to eliminate your tracks. Drop breadcrumbs, and birds eat them up. Drop stones, and they just won't land or stop rolling until they're no longer making a trail. Try to break twigs, and coincidences lead to other twigs leaving false trails breaking.
    My inclination is to say this is taking the spell a bit too far. From a historical perspective, the spell was a 1st level Druid spell in 1e, and the spell text limited the concealment of passage to footprints and scent. (You also could use Detect Magic to detect the passage, as the terrain crossed displayed a magical aura).

    To broaden the notion of "Passage" to include all activities, beyond the physical evidence one would naturally leave while traveling is an overly broad interpretation.

    Using this broad interpretation Bansky could not graffiti a building, a PC Druid or Ranger could not leave Trail Signs, a PC couldn't use Skywrite etc.

    The spell is meant to occlude incidental signs of passage, not obliterate intentional acts.

    Removing animal droppings might even be a bit of an overreach for a "veil of shadows and silence"...

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    It expressly states that the spell's medium is a veil of shadows and silence that extends from the caster. Its wording also says nothing about "When you cast..." but rather: "For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means."

    Thus, for the duration, you can choose creatures within 30 feet of you to receive the benefits.
    This is how I interpret the spell, but I've played in games where the DM has allowed people to move beyond 30' from the caster. Like many rules In 5e, the language used is often not as ironclad as it could be vis a vis unequivocally expressing design intent.
    Last edited by Thunderous Mojo; 2021-01-18 at 12:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    One thing to emphasize is that pass without trace makes you more stealthy and not leave tracks but does nothing if a creature can see or hear you.

    If you try to stealth down a corridor and the guard happens to look that way - there is no roll, there is no stealth, you aren't hidden whether you have pass without trace or not. If you have something to hide behind then you can hide, if you don't, you are visible and thus stealth fails.

    This includes dim light or light natural cover like leaves. Only wood elves gain the ability to hide when lightly obscured by natural terrain. Everyone else needs a tree or something that completely blocks them from view.

    A character can try to sneak up on a guard. Their stealth roll doesn't guarantee that the guard doesn't turn around and see you ... all it does is indicate whether you might or might not make enough noise to be heard and thus make the guard aware that you are there. An alert guard is likely scanning the surroundings regularly making it very difficult to impossible to sneak up on them.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
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    Delawhere?

    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    One thing to emphasize is that pass without trace makes you more stealthy and not leave tracks but does nothing if a creature can see or hear you.

    If you try to stealth down a corridor and the guard happens to look that way - there is no roll, there is no stealth, you aren't hidden whether you have pass without trace or not. If you have something to hide behind then you can hide, if you don't, you are visible and thus stealth fails.

    This includes dim light or light natural cover like leaves. Only wood elves gain the ability to hide when lightly obscured by natural terrain. Everyone else needs a tree or something that completely blocks them from view.

    A character can try to sneak up on a guard. Their stealth roll doesn't guarantee that the guard doesn't turn around and see you ... all it does is indicate whether you might or might not make enough noise to be heard and thus make the guard aware that you are there. An alert guard is likely scanning the surroundings regularly making it very difficult to impossible to sneak up on them.
    Yes.

    Adding on to this train of thought: you have to be doing something that requires a stealth check. If you kidnap Gretel, she won't try to be stealthy -- no roll needed. This is not a silence spell. Last time I kicked a door in, my DM didn't ask me to roll a stealth check. But the real application is not leaving footprints and so forth.

    A similar example would be walking across ice. You're fine and stealthy until the ice breaks. If no one sees you, and you can climb out, you won't leave puddles of water behind you, but when you are thrashing in the water, you're no more or less stealthy or hidden than without the spell. (Well, maybe you can make a stealth check to drown quietly in your plate mail?)

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Do remember that this only helps if you can hide in the first place, which this does not help with. If you walk out into the open where someone's watching, you're noticed even with an INFINITY+1 Dexterity (Stealth) check.

    This is not invisibility.
    It's invisibility regarding any evidence of your passage. Seriously, imagine a guard sees you running away in the pure undisturbed snow, reports it, but then nobody can see the footprints. Would people believe the schmuck?

    Edit: I also figured that you could easily rustle some cattle and nobody would ever be able to trace you.
    Last edited by Cikomyr2; 2021-01-18 at 02:42 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    It's invisibility regarding any evidence of your passage. Seriously, imagine a guard sees you running away in the pure undisturbed snow, reports it, but then nobody can see the footprints. Would people believe the schmuck?

    Edit: I also figured that you could easily rustle some cattle and nobody would ever be able to trace you.
    In a world full of magic and fairies and monks, I would expect they would. At least enough to up alert levels. If you are playing in a realm that has magic almost unknown, probably not.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2018

    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CapnWildefyr View Post
    Adding on to this train of thought: you have to be doing something that requires a stealth check. If you kidnap Gretel, she won't try to be stealthy -- no roll needed. This is not a silence spell. Last time I kicked a door in, my DM didn't ask me to roll a stealth check. But the real application is not leaving footprints and so forth.
    [/COLOR]
    The wording does say after all, "A veil of shadows and Silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the Duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its Passage .

    Should be relatively easy for a DM to rule that the "no tracks" clause is dependent on the "Stealth checks" clause, since you aren't receiving the bonus absent making the Stealth check. I'm sure the wording could be further parsed by a rules lawyer, but it feels RAW and RAI to me.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderous Mojo View Post
    My inclination is to say this is taking the spell a bit too far. From a historical perspective, the spell was a 1st level Druid spell in 1e, and the spell text limited the concealment of passage to footprints and scent. (You also could use Detect Magic to detect the passage, as the terrain crossed displayed a magical aura).

    To broaden the notion of "Passage" to include all activities, beyond the physical evidence one would naturally leave while traveling is an overly broad interpretation.

    Using this broad interpretation Bansky could not graffiti a building, a PC Druid or Ranger could not leave Trail Signs, a PC couldn't use Skywrite etc.

    The spell is meant to occlude incidental signs of passage, not obliterate intentional acts.

    Removing animal droppings might even be a bit of an overreach for a "veil of shadows and silence"...
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnWildefyr View Post
    Yes.

    Adding on to this train of thought: you have to be doing something that requires a stealth check. If you kidnap Gretel, she won't try to be stealthy -- no roll needed. This is not a silence spell. Last time I kicked a door in, my DM didn't ask me to roll a stealth check. But the real application is not leaving footprints and so forth.

    A similar example would be walking across ice. You're fine and stealthy until the ice breaks. If no one sees you, and you can climb out, you won't leave puddles of water behind you, but when you are thrashing in the water, you're no more or less stealthy or hidden than without the spell. (Well, maybe you can make a stealth check to drown quietly in your plate mail?)
    To be clear, I am not suggesting kidnapping Hansel or Gretel with this spell up would let you stealth past people while the siblings are kicking and screaming for help. I am suggesting that if Hansel and Gretel, while being dragging kicking and screaming, tried to leave a trail by dragging their feet, dropping breadcrumbs, or breaking up the underbrush, they would fail to leave a trail. So if you grabbed them while they were alone in the woods, albeit on the well-marked trail, even if they kicked and screamed, nobody could hear them because nobody is around to do so. When the search parties came out later, they'd find their trail ends at the point you enclosed them in your pass without trace AoE and decided they got the "benefits" of it.

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