Pass without Trace - how badly can we abuse it?

[Keravath]

It's invisibility regarding any evidence of your passage. Seriously, imagine a guard sees you running away in the pure undisturbed snow, reports it, but then nobody can see the footprints. Would people believe the schmuck?

Edit: I also figured that you could easily rustle some cattle and nobody would ever be able to trace you.

In the world of D&D where spells like Pass Without Trace are only 2nd level - accessible to a variety of characters - the response is more likely to be "Hmm, must have been a Ranger, Druid, Trickery Cleric, Shadow Monk, or possibly a lore Bard. What did they look like?"

Though they could also choose to disbelieve them if they wanted to ... it is the DMs game after all. :)

[da newt]

A veil of shadows and Silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the Duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its Passage.

If a Kobold / Drow was within an area of shadows caused by the spell, does this counter their sunlight sensitivity? Can a Twilight cleric fly in this AOR? Does the shadow blade attack with ADV? Does everyone actively searching (perception check) have to roll with DISADV?

Of note, PHB pg 183 says "Dim light, also called shadows, "

[CapnWildefyr]

To be clear, I am not suggesting kidnapping Hansel or Gretel with this spell up would let you stealth past people while the siblings are kicking and screaming for help. I am suggesting that if Hansel and Gretel, while being dragging kicking and screaming, tried to leave a trail by dragging their feet, dropping breadcrumbs, or breaking up the underbrush, they would fail to leave a trail. So if you grabbed them while they were alone in the woods, albeit on the well-marked trail, even if they kicked and screamed, nobody could hear them because nobody is around to do so. When the search parties came out later, they'd find their trail ends at the point you enclosed them in your pass without trace AoE and decided they got the "benefits" of it.

Sounds like we're on the page page. For example, if I knock Hansel out cold, I can carry him as I sneak past Gretel using my +10 bonus, and no one would find a trace without using magic.

[Valmark]

Personally I rule that someone enchanted with Pass Without Traces doesn't leave traces that can be used to track them down- meaning that if you break a vase (for example) the vase is broken and people will obviously know somebody did that. But there will be no footprints, no odors, nothing leading away from or to it- whoever did that will have been like a ghost (at least I think ghosts don't leave traces).

Same thing if one breaks a door or even if they murder somebody- there will obviously be the corpse/door in whatever state they left it, but as far as finding or even knowing it was them? Not even a speck of dust.

I'm assuming they either didn't need to roll a Stealth check or didn't fail any here- obviously if I call for a Stealth check and the enchanted character fails it they are getting discovered big time.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Of note, PHB pg 183 says "Dim light, also called shadows, "

The "Veil of Shadows and Silence" line from PWoT is what has been referred to in the past as "Flavor Text" or "Fluff", and typically is considered separate from the mechanical aspect of the power.

TCoE gives an example of Magic Missile becoming Magic Chicken Missile.
The spell works the same, it just looks different.

A Fey Wanderer or member of the Circle of Dreams might summon small moth sized Fey that sprinkle obscuring dust on the recipients of the spell.

A cleric of trickery that venerates Loki might summon an apparition of the Ferris Wolf that eats light and sound...again the mechanics remain the same, but the flavor text changes.

Now if a DM/Player agree to change some of the mechanical elements to match the changes in flavor text...great! This is a fine way to add individual personality to a campaign and is a excellent use of house rules.

[da newt]

You can tell what is flavor text (so it should be ignored) and what is RAW (and therefor make up the rules of the game) because they are careful to use different fonts, right?

[PhoenixPhyre]

You can tell what is flavor text (so it should be ignored) and what is RAW (and therefor make up the rules of the game) because they are careful to use different fonts, right?

I think there are two extremes here, both of which are wrong.

One is the one you're mocking--the idea that some parts (not clearly stated which, other than the ones people don't like that aren't encoded in numbers) are just fluff and can be ignored at will. That goes against the principle of "no hidden rules"--if only some parts of abilities mattered, they'd have to say which. 4e did this explicitly with different fonts, as you allude to. 5e does not.

The other is that each and every sentence (or worse, phrase) in an ability must have independent meaning outside of the greater context of the ability. That goes against basic english, which says that words are polysemic and only gain meaning in context.

I'd say that instead, those lines set things up. They're rules, but they're rules that are then narrowed by context. The remainder of the ability tells you what that "veil of shadow and silence" does, mechanically. But there is a veil of silence and shadows.

[HPisBS]

... If you have something to hide behind then you can hide, if you don't, you are visible and thus stealth fails.

This includes dim light or light natural cover like leaves. Only wood elves gain the ability to hide when lightly obscured by natural terrain. Everyone else needs a tree or something that completely blocks them from view.

Or just Skulker feat.

A character can try to sneak up on a guard. Their stealth roll doesn't guarantee that the guard doesn't turn around and see you ... all it does is indicate whether you might or might not make enough noise to be heard and thus make the guard aware that you are there. An alert guard is likely scanning the surroundings regularly making it very difficult to impossible to sneak up on them.

You haven't played much Splinter Cell or Assassin's Creed, have you?

The wording does say after all, "A veil of shadows and Silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the Duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its Passage .

Should be relatively easy for a DM to rule that the "no tracks" clause is dependent on the "Stealth checks" clause, since you aren't receiving the bonus absent making the Stealth check. I'm sure the wording could be further parsed by a rules lawyer, but it feels RAW and RAI to me.

Improper bolding. It should've been:
"... For the Duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its Passage."

The (properly bolded) "and" denotes two distinct and separate effects. The former can only apply when making a Stealth check (unless your table says creatures can have a "passive stealth" like their passive perception / investigation). The latter applies whenever you do anything that could otherwise let you be tracked by nonmagical means.

[greenstone]

So.. Does it mean I can run over the snow, mud, etc.. Without leaving *any* footprint?

As long as you are trying to be stealthy, yes.

[Cikomyr2]

As long as you are trying to be stealthy, yes.

Can't you roll a stealth check while running, you just do it at a disadvantage?

[Tanarii]

Can't you roll a stealth check while running, you just do it at a disadvantage?

No, you have to be moving at a slow pace.

[Rara1212]

No, you have to be moving at a slow pace.

That's only in narrative over land travel.

[HPisBS]

No, you have to be moving at a slow pace.

That's only in narrative over land travel.

Supporting evidence for that distinction in some sneaky class features:

Thief Rogue - Supreme Sneak:
"Starting at 9th level, you have advantage on a Dexterity (Stealth) check if you move no more than half your speed on the same turn."

Ranger - Natural Explorer:
"If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace."

[J.C.]

When I am playing in an environment where it is easy to get a Staff of the Woodlands I always dip Druid 1 NO MATTER WHAT unless someone else beat me to it or for some reason I cannot dip Druid 1. Staff of the Woodlands is the single best party buff for the game. PERIOD.

At Will PASS WITHOUT TRACE is ridiculous. PERIOD.

[Tanarii]

That's only in narrative over land travel.

It's for all non-combat movement.

Edit: technically non-chase too, but that's just slightly modified combat rules.

[Segev]

You don't need to be actively trying to hide in order to have your tracks be impossible to follow. You just need to be getting the +10 bonus to stealth checks. You have that bonus whether you choose to take a Hide action or not. It just doesn't do anything if you don't use it. Just like your +1 sword gets a +1 bonus to hit regardless of whether you choose to ever attack with it.

When I am playing in an environment where it is easy to get a Staff of the Woodlands I always dip Druid 1 NO MATTER WHAT unless someone else beat me to it or for some reason I cannot dip Druid 1. Staff of the Woodlands is the single best party buff for the game. PERIOD.

At Will PASS WITHOUT TRACE is ridiculous. PERIOD.

That's a pretty nice item, but it is a Rare item, and I tend to view Uncommon items as barely within the realm of reasonably being able to expect to be able to shop for them.

[Thunderous Mojo]

You can tell what is flavor text (so it should be ignored) and what is RAW (and therefor make up the rules of the game) because they are careful to use different fonts, right?

No one stated "ignored"..flavor text connotes "easily modified, without creating unintended consequences". TCoE outlined how to make Racial Abilities "flavor text".

Can anyone point out a 5e spell that results in an imposition of a particular lighting condition that does not specify the exact lighting created..such a Dim Light?
(I'm not able to review spells at the moment)

I've driven across Texas and New Mexico multiple times. On flat plains, during daylight, a single cloud creating a solitary patch of Dim Light is very noticeable to spot.

So if all the text is considered equally important, then PWoT might conceivably grant a +10 to Stealth checks and impose Disadvantage on those checks simultaneously.

Should an upcast Continual Flame spell or other spell that creates light, negate or reduce the effectiveness of a Pass Without Trace spell?

Using PWoT to try to sneak through a concert hall during a musical performance or during Play would create a zone of aural dampening that likely would increase one's chance of being discovered, and not actually aid in avoiding detection.

I try to only open cans of worms, when I know the fish I am intending to catch will eat worms as bait. Otherwise, I just wind up with a mess, and fish that are not biting.

[Segev]

No one stated "ignored"..flavor text connotes "easily modified, without creating unintended consequences". TCoE outlined how to make Racial Abilities "flavor text".

Can anyone point out a 5e spell that results in an imposition of a particular lighting condition that does not specify the exact lighting created..such a Dim Light?
(I'm not able to review spells at the moment)

I've driven across Texas and New Mexico multiple times. On flat plains, during daylight, a single cloud creating a solitary patch of Dim Light is very noticeable to spot.

So if all the text is considered equally important, then PWoT might conceivably grant a +10 to Stealth checks and impose Disadvantage on those checks simultaneously.

Should an upcast Continual Flame spell or other spell that creates light, negate or reduce the effectiveness of a Pass Without Trace spell?

Using PWoT to try to sneak through a concert hall during a musical performance or during Play would create a zone of aural dampening that likely would increase one's chance of being discovered, and not actually aid in avoiding detection.

I try to only open cans of worms, when I know the fish I am intending to catch will eat worms as bait. Otherwise, I just wind up with a mess, and fish that are not biting.

Taking your anecdote as the example, how often have you seen that patch of cloud-derived darkness and thought, "There's somebody sneaking alone inside of that, because it's there?"

[Thunderous Mojo]

Taking your anecdote as the example, how often have you seen that patch of cloud-derived darkness and thought, "There's somebody sneaking alone inside of that, because it's there?"

Actually during my last Route 66 road trip, 2 years ago, with a good buddy that also plays D&D with me, we made a substantial number of "that patch of darkness could have 15 Shadar Kai in it" quips.

So if two D&D geeks, that only have to consider Magic in the most theoretical of terms can make jokes about "hiding in shadows".....is it that difficult to imagine that in a wide magic world like Eberron...Pass Without Trace is something that is considered quite openly?

There are two Dragonmarked Houses that grant their scions access to the spell, in addition to the 'Usual Suspects' of Druids, Rangers, and Clerics o' Trickery.

[Segev]

Actually during my last Route 66 road trip, 2 years ago, with a good buddy that also plays D&D with me, we made a substantial number of "that patch of darkness could have 15 Shadar Kai in it" quips.

So if two D&D geeks, that only have to consider Magic in the most theoretical of terms can make jokes about "hiding in shadows".....is it that difficult to imagine that in a wide magic world like Eberron...Pass Without Trace is something that is considered quite openly?

There are two Dragonmarked Houses that grant their scions access to the spell, in addition to the 'Usual Suspects' of Druids, Rangers, and Clerics o' Trickery.

Fair enough. What do you suppose standard patrol/watch responses to patches of dimness are?

[Samayu]

"For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means."

Because the wording uses "for the duration," I would assume the creatures need to remain there. Plus, there are other spells that specifically say where the creatures need to be when you cast, and this spell doesn't read that way. What muddies the water a bit is that it says you choose them. Choosing is normally only done at the time of casting.

Choosing any creature within 30 feet of you, at any time while the spell lasts is... if that's the intention, it is worded very badly. And there's no precedent for that.

[Segev]

"For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means."

Because the wording uses "for the duration," I would assume the creatures need to remain there. Plus, there are other spells that specifically say where the creatures need to be when you cast, and this spell doesn't read that way. What muddies the water a bit is that it says you choose them. Choosing is normally only done at the time of casting.

Choosing any creature within 30 feet of you, at any time while the spell lasts is... if that's the intention, it is worded very badly. And there's no precedent for that.

It says you choose creatures for the duration, so it's pretty specific, even if it's a bit unusual.

[HPisBS]

It says you choose creatures for the duration, so it's pretty specific, even if it's a bit unusual.

The question that has now arisen is: Does that mean "Each creature you choose gets these benefits for the duration while they're within 30 ft of you," or "For the duration, you get to choose creatures within 30 ft of you to get these benefits?"


One would expect the former, but the latter reading seems just as sound.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Fair enough. What do you suppose standard patrol/watch responses to patches of dimness are?

This is a question better suited for someone else. My personal ruling is the line about "a veil of shadow and silence" is flavor text, so there is no chance that a visual cue or aural dampening phenomenon is going to Nerf the spell.

I've seen the movie Predator. So my response to patches of shifting light whispering "Over here, in the trees" is to either cast Fireball or "get to the chopper". 😃

One would expect the former, but the latter reading seems just as sound.

Gameplay-wise, the latter reading even makes sense. One failure in a group stealth check scenario can result in total failure. If the caster can add new recipients to the spell after the initial casting of PWoT, then the party doesn't have to recast the spell again after they rescue the prisoner from cell block B.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Gees this is a good spell. I don't know about abuse, but the +10 bonus and duration make this so good. My group of 3rd level characters snuck into a dungeon in BGOoA tonight (that was supposed to be 4th level) and made pretty easy work of a huge chunk of it. 4/5ths of the party (The heavy armor fighter didn't try) was able to get surprise on the toughest thing in there, and it was pretty smooth sailing after that. The druid kept concentration, so they kept going from there.

[Cikomyr2]

Gees this is a good spell. I don't know about abuse, but the +10 bonus and duration make this so good. My group of 3rd level characters snuck into a dungeon in BGOoA tonight (that was supposed to be 4th level) and made pretty easy work of a huge chunk of it. 4/5ths of the party (The heavy armor fighter didn't try) was able to get surprise on the toughest thing in there, and it was pretty smooth sailing after that. The druid kept concentration, so they kept going from there.

The +10 stealth bonus is awesome. But what interested me is the spell effects that are not related to stat bonuses.

Like, what just *happens* without the need to roll for it? "leaving no trace" is, in my opinion, broken as heck the more I think about it.

edit: let's say someone puts a hair on a door to see if someone opened it while they were away. Would Pass Without Trace replace the hair?

[HPisBS]

The +10 stealth bonus is awesome. But what interested me is the spell effects that are not related to stat bonuses.

Like, what just *happens* without the need to roll for it? "leaving no trace" is, in my opinion, broken as heck the more I think about it.

edit: let's say someone puts a hair on a door to see if someone opened it while they were away. Would Pass Without Trace replace the hair?

Nah, it'd keep the hair from falling. Prevent any rush of air from knocking the hair off in the first place.

[Segev]

The question that has now arisen is: Does that mean "Each creature you choose gets these benefits for the duration while they're within 30 ft of you," or "For the duration, you get to choose creatures within 30 ft of you to get these benefits?"


One would expect the former, but the latter reading seems just as sound.

The "for the duration" applies to both effects, by my reading, especially given that the explanation for its function - fluff or not - is a "veil of shadows and silence" that has a definite radius. It wouldn't make sense that the "veil of shadows and silence" lets them hide and not leave tracks when they're not in its magical influence area. If it worked like that, the description would talk about the "veil of shadows and silence" clinging to them or something like that, not "radiating out" from the caster "for the duration."

The +10 stealth bonus is awesome. But what interested me is the spell effects that are not related to stat bonuses.

The +10 stealth bonus is amazing. I'm playing a rogue 1/monk 2 in a game that just leveled up, and I'm debating between Rogue 2 for bonus-action stealth (and bonus-action dash w/o spending ki), or open hand monk (he's a grappler, so knockdown on flurry of blows would be awesome), or shadow monk (because +10 to stealth means a minimum of 18, maximum of 37 on stealth checks for him).

Like, what just *happens* without the need to roll for it? "leaving no trace" is, in my opinion, broken as heck the more I think about it.

edit: let's say someone puts a hair on a door to see if someone opened it while they were away. Would Pass Without Trace replace the hair?

I would personally rule that it prevents tracking, so somebody setting a "somebody was here" alert trap would still know somebody was there, but they'd be unable to track you. Ironically, this means that the hair trick would fail in some fashion if it were useful for tracking you.

I can see the counterargument that the hair being out of place is a "sign of passage" and that it's "pass without trace," not "be untrackable," so "passing" the door without a trace you'd done so would be in line with the spell's stated name. So I could see a DM ruling that it does, in fact, prevent the hair from falling out of place.

[HPisBS]

The question that has now arisen is: Does that mean "Each creature you choose gets these benefits for the duration while they're within 30 ft of you," or "For the duration, you get to choose creatures within 30 ft of you to get these benefits?"

The "for the duration" applies to both effects, by my reading, especially given that the explanation for its function - fluff or not - is a "veil of shadows and silence" that has a definite radius. It wouldn't make sense that the "veil of shadows and silence" lets them hide and not leave tracks when they're not in its magical influence area. If it worked like that, the description would talk about the "veil of shadows and silence" clinging to them or something like that, not "radiating out" from the caster "for the duration."

Both options I mentioned would make the benefits only apply for creatures while they're w/in 30 ft of the caster. The difference is that the former would mean that only creatures who were in that area when it was cast could ever benefit, while the latter would let you add (or subtract) creatures who're w/in the area after it was cast.

I guess I should've laid that out better the first time.


... Now that we've apparently had this misunderstanding, I'm thinking the latter (that you can edit your choice of beneficiaries at will) is more correct because, while that was the message I intended to write, the language I used was too concise to effectively convey it to you. Much like the official spell text.

[DwarfFighter]

Hm. The idea that Pass Without Trace will mend broken glass or door frames seems a bit of a stretch.