OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

[Riftwolf]

I'm reminded of the some of the final castles in the original Super Mario Bros. (Levels 4-4, 7-4, and 8-4)

*stares up at ceiling fan* the horror, the horror...

[danielxcutter]

*stares up at ceiling fan* the horror, the horror...

Uhhhhhh... context?

[Darth Paul]

How so? Roy goes through the trap to reach the dead end.

In my defense, I'm tired.

There's a cris-cross thing going on. So, okay, momentarily Roy's body is in the same tunnel as Blackwing, the decoy corridor. Okay, now I do see what people are talking about... but maybe, if you know the real tunnel is there, you can see across the boundary just enough to see the scorch mark but not enough to see Elan? Like being able to see the Matrix.

[Ruck]

In my defense, I'm tired.

There's a cris-cross thing going on. So, okay, momentarily Roy's body is in the same tunnel as Blackwing, the decoy corridor. Okay, now I do see what people are talking about... but maybe, if you know the real tunnel is there, you can see across the boundary just enough to see the scorch mark but not enough to see Elan? Like being able to see the Matrix.

Yeah, I was thinking the scorch mark being visible in page 2, panel 7 mostly makes sense to me if we're seeing the panel from multiple perspectives: We look at Roy from outside anyone's perspective, so we can see Blackwing in the same physical space as Roy. But if Roy pulled back, he'd still see the scorch mark, so it's visible.

That said, the scorch mark appears to be on the green-ish (fake tunnel) floor, not the yellow-ish (real tunnel) one, so maybe it is an art error. I'll be honest, I haven't put too much thought into it, because I don't know what it means or how it would contradict the Order's conclusions here (which I think are basically correct and have been foreshadowed in a couple of ways in previous panels).

[The Patterner]

This might have been brought up, but am I the only one worried that the MID:s tactic of sabotage might bite them all in the ass because of this?

Soon team evil will run out of doors and will then start to wonder why they have not found the gate. So considering Redcloaks intelligence (and Xykon do shine every now and then as well), they might just figure out that it's something off with the doors themselves?

[danielxcutter]

This might have been brought up, but am I the only one worried that the MID:s tactic of sabotage might bite them all in the ass because of this?

Soon team evil will run out of doors and will then start to wonder why they have not found the gate. So considering Redcloaks intelligence (and Xykon do shine every now and then as well), they might just figure out that it's something off with the doors themselves?

Redcloak's thought of the possibility that any of the doors could have been marked in error now, so if anything else it'll take even longer for them to figure it out. Because Team Evil has to go back and check all the marked doors to make sure which they've gone through and which they haven't. They won't be thinking about the possibility of being rerouted for quite a while.

[Smoutwortel]

Huh, that's interesting...

1. There's a double teleportation effect, depending on which way you enter the portal. The trap that leads to a random dungeon if you come from the door, and the one that Roy got his head through, that leads to a dead end. Except...

2. They function differently. Haley putting a dead rat head inside the trap spent its energy and disabled it for 20 seconds, giving the Order time to pass through. By contrast, Roy put his head inside the portal to look at the dead end, and it didn't "activate" and disappear.

3. Or do they? The scrying process and the possibility of several intruders entering the tunnel one after the other indicates that the portal is permanent, rather than a trap that activates once on contact and recharges after 20 seconds. Then why did the rat head work?

Am I overthinking this?
Also, I'm wondering about the dead end, what its purpose is, and what it means. Could it be a key for later?

My explanation would be a glyph of warding under a non-detection spell with an arcane gate stored, a permanent arcane gate. A magical light dimming effect, such as magical darkness or deeper fog, a negation spell for certain types of magic such as Otiluke's Supressing Field(to hide the portal from things like detect magic), a divination spell like scry location or whatever spell Hilga used again and a programmed illusion like spell that does either follow the movement in Hilga's water or follows the vision an intelligent item used as caster for the divination and probably the illusion.

[Smoutwortel]

Not really; none of the members of Team Evil have the Trapfinding ability. Unless they decide to use Detect Magic or something they might never figure it out, though once they do it's only a Greater Dispel Magic away from being suppressed.

Serini's probably smart enough to prepare against that though; that spell is literally a cantrip. The traps could be masked with something like Magic Aura or something, I guess, but I doubt that's the only thing.

She must have prepared against it otherwise redcloak would have noticed it when he used his truesight.

[Fyraltari]

*stares up at ceiling fan* the horror, the horror...

Uhhhhhh... context?

There's a 50cm big spider hanging off Riftwolf's ceiling fan. And slowly descending.

[danielxcutter]

She must have prepared against it otherwise redcloak would have noticed it when he used his truesight.

Nah, that doesn't have anything to do with True Seeing. There's a list of things that True Seeing can, well, see through, and this doesn't fall under any of them.

[Smoutwortel]

Nah, that doesn't have anything to do with True Seeing. There's a list of things that True Seeing can, well, see through, and this doesn't fall under any of them.

You're right.
That would explain, why Vaarsuvius' detect magic worked.

By the way do you have any suggestion to make a lot of repetetive spell trap.

[danielxcutter]

You're right.
That would explain, why Vaarsuvius' detect magic worked.

By the way do you have any suggestion to make a lot of repetetive spell trap.

I’m pretty sure it’s easy to make it reset every time it’s triggered. There’s a thought exercise called the Tippyverse that among other things achieves post-scarcity by utilizing continual traps of Create Food and Water.

[subtledoctor]

In the panel just above the last one, you can see the aura where Blackwing is preemptively getting the heck out of there behind Belkar's head.

Gotta love the Giant's attention to detail.

Or it’s a head-fake, and someone else crossed the portal.

Of course it is unlikely someone could have entered without being noticed. The Order had their backs turned, but Blackwing should have seen it, right? Two possibilities then:

1) Blackwing was already out if the dungeon. The portal has no “WON” effect from that side.

2) The new entrant was... invisible!

Dun dun dun!

Okay granted this is unlikely. It’s probably Blackwing.

[Goblin_Priest]

The burn on the floor appears in two places:

1) the original entrance half, the one that leads to the door.
2) the de-activated tunnel half, where the order is.

It does not appear on either of the sides requiring the trap to be active.

I'm not really sure what conclusions could be drawn from this, though. It basically just shows where is "real", but it could have interacted with the trap differently, only blowing up where it isn't.

From what we've seen from this strip and the last, the Order is currently in the REAL tunnel. Team Evil is in a remote tunnel. Probably the same one that has a dead-end.

The teleportation trap works both ways. The divination part does not.

Which all seems pretty evident by what we see, and it repeated by the protagonists.

What is less evident is:

1) do all door teleportation traps lead to the same fake dungeon?
2) what are the differences between the "real" dungeons, when their traps are de-activated?

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Because it's not a secret door hidden by magic.

Let me explain. True Seeing does not expose objects hidden by mundane means; it wouldn't reveal a trapdoor hidden under a rug, for instance.

The portal is an actual object, not merely an illusion. If anything can pass through it, that would include air (and therefore sound) and light, therefore making it look and sound like whatever is on the other side, all without the use of illusions. Think of it like looking in a mirror, in effect.

You appear to be arguing that a physical object is hiding the secret entrance by mundane means.

It seems I have to keep explaining this...
It doesn't doesn't matter what school of magic is used to hide the door.
So if magic is used to keep a wall covering a secret entrance, then that is magic hiding a secret door.
So even if the rug is physical, if it's a magical effect that that is used to keep the rug concealing the door, then True Seeing notices it. Tree Seeing only fails to notice it if magic is not being used to keep the rug covering the trap door.

Recall that OotS had to bypass a magical effect to enter the new space. There is a magical effect in place that keeps this entrance secret. In other words, it is not simply mundane means that is being used to hide the secret door; there is a magical effect in play. It's strange to argue that a secret door isn't a secret door or to argue that a magical effect that is hiding it isn't hiding it (as you seem to be arguing).

Do you disagree with the premise that the entrance OotS found is a secret door?
Or do you disagree with the premise that the only reason this entrance was hidden is because there was a magical effect hiding it?

This. Also, notice the white line on the wall. The portal is being used at that very moment. Notice how the line that marks where the portal is turns white whenever someone crosses it.

In short: Blackwing crosses the portal back to the door on panel 20. Not before that.

Very nice catch Nazzo. So it means that Black wing was in the Xykon corridor in panel b9, which there's no clear explanation yet for the scorch mark being on the same side that Blackwing is on except as an art error.

The white lines indicate Roy activates the magical effect when he leans through the portal. So the floor coloring is explained as Roy being in the same dimension as Blackwing. That's lends additional credence to a teleportation effect on the Xykon group. Maybe we'll get some better answers as the comic moves forward, because currently it doesn't make any sense for Redcloak not to have noticed an invisible scrying sensor with his True Seeing if, in fact, there is a scrying effect in place here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Uhhhhhh... context?

My guess is a movie called "Apocalypse Now" but it might be something else. (FWIW, that movie is in a lot of ways a re telling of Joseph Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness', and "the horror, the horror" was in that story as well). Here's a little discussion on it.

[subtledoctor]

Further thoughts:

1) I don’t think V’s Detect Magic is a problem. The side of the portal by the entrance can be hidden by Nystul’s Aura to stymie Detect Magic. And True Seeing is useless because what you see through the tunnel is true - a true image provided by divination magic.

But once you have disabled the trap and passed through to the corridor where OOTS is, then who cares if the portal is detectable? It’s already been bypassed. So Nystul’s Aura need not be applied on that side.

2) I tried to make it work in my head, but in the end I think the half-scorch-mark in panel 18 is an error. (EDIT - but maybe not!)
- Look at panel 9: from outside the entrance we can see the green corridor (via divination) and there is no scorch there.
- Now look at panel 14: looking from inside the green corridor itself, there is no half scorch mark.
- Now look at any panel with the OOTS: there *is* a scorch mark in the yellow corridor.
- Finally, look at panel 10 in strip 1220 and at panel 3 in strip 1221: after the portal is disabled, the rat head is not sliced in half as you might expect, but instead its front half - the half that made this particular half a scorch mark - is in the yellow corridor.

Given that, I cannot fathom why a half a scorch mark would appear in the green corridor from the point of view of the dead end tunnel. There is no divination effect here - that’s why you can see the green corridor from the dead end and can see the entrance from the yellow corridor. So the green corridor’s appearance should be as it really is. And since the green corridor lacks that half a scorch mark, so should its appearance from the dead end.

EDIT!

It occurs to me that when we see the scorch mark on the green floor, Roy is actively crossing the portal and its border is white. Maybe the scorch mark appears because it is connected to the border of the portal. Whereas, every time we see the green floor without any scorch mark, the portal is not active and its border is dim.

So maybe it works.

[danielxcutter]

You appear to be arguing that a physical object is hiding the secret entrance by mundane means.

It seems I have to keep explaining this...
It doesn't doesn't matter what school of magic is used to hide the door.
So if magic is used to keep a wall covering a secret entrance, then that is magic hiding a secret door.
So even if the rug is physical, if it's a magical effect that that is used to keep the rug concealing the door, then True Seeing notices it. Tree Seeing only fails to notice it if magic is not being used to keep the rug covering the trap door.

Recall that OotS had to bypass a magical effect to enter the new space. There is a magical effect in place that keeps this entrance secret. In other words, it is not simply mundane means that is being used to hide the secret door; there is a magical effect in play. It's strange to argue that a secret door isn't a secret door or to argue that a magical effect that is hiding it isn't hiding it (as you seem to be arguing).

Do you disagree with the premise that the entrance OotS found is a secret door?
Or do you disagree with the premise that the only reason this entrance was hidden is because there was a magical effect hiding it?

Well it's not a door, is it? It's a corridor at best. If I put up a projector screen in the middle of a hallway, does that make the hallway a door?

Very nice catch Nazzo. So it means that Black wing was in the Xykon corridor in panel b9, which there's no clear explanation yet for the scorch mark being on the same side that Blackwing is on except as an art error.

The white lines indicate Roy activates the magical effect when he leans through the portal. So the floor coloring is explained as Roy being in the same dimension as Blackwing. That's lends additional credence to a teleportation effect on the Xykon group. Maybe we'll get some better answers as the comic moves forward, because currently it doesn't make any sense for Redcloak not to have noticed an invisible scrying sensor with his True Seeing if, in fact, there is a scrying effect in place here.

Hmm, I see what you mean, but I'm not actually seeing anything that suggests True Seeing lets you see scrying sensors. There's only really this:

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.

I think maybe Redcloak just blew the Int check even if this trap does use scrying sensors. I doubt Redcloak's been routinely scanning dungeons with True Seeing, not when every dungeon dive burns a lot of spell slots and he had very little reason to suspect this kind of thing until now.

That being said, I suppose it's possible that by RAW you're right but the Giant's just handwaving that or flat-out forgot. Or it maybe was obscured by stronger, perhaps even Epic magic; I don't think it's too far-fetched for Serini getting help from the other Scribblers when making her dungeons.

[Goblin_Priest]

V's logic is flawed.

If the divination magic was meant to act as a screen, then True Seeing would probably interact with it. Redcloak would probably have been able to see Roy and the Order through the trap, since he's literally a few feet ahead of him (for real).

V says "could". There is no certainty.

That said, it is true that the trap works asymmetrically. Both those who have been teleported and those who don't *see* the real entrance, and nobody sees the dead-end through the trap.

It's also quite possible that the divination has a role of allowing third parties (Serini? Orange and Green?) to peek into the dungeon, to be alerted when someone crosses in.

[Ironsmith]

You appear to be arguing that a physical object is hiding the secret entrance by mundane means.

It seems I have to keep explaining this...
It doesn't doesn't matter what school of magic is used to hide the door.
So if magic is used to keep a wall covering a secret entrance, then that is magic hiding a secret door.
So even if the rug is physical, if it's a magical effect that that is used to keep the rug concealing the door, then True Seeing notices it. Tree Seeing only fails to notice it if magic is not being used to keep the rug covering the trap door.

Recall that OotS had to bypass a magical effect to enter the new space. There is a magical effect in place that keeps this entrance secret. In other words, it is not simply mundane means that is being used to hide the secret door; there is a magical effect in play. It's strange to argue that a secret door isn't a secret door or to argue that a magical effect that is hiding it isn't hiding it (as you seem to be arguing).

Do you disagree with the premise that the entrance OotS found is a secret door?
Or do you disagree with the premise that the only reason this entrance was hidden is because there was a magical effect hiding it?

I disagree with the premise that the door is being hidden by a magical effect.

I think the big thing that's causing confusion here is that the object doing the concealing is a portal, an object for which we do not have a well-understood mundane counterpart.

Can we agree that the purpose of True Seeing is to reveal an item's true appearance, as opposed to one altered by magic?

If so, then True Seeing should not affect the portal. The true appearance of the portal is the same as it would appear to be with mundane vision. The only trouble is that it's not obvious it's a portal, even if you can see it properly, but the same could be said if it were a sufficiently well-made painting or a pane of glass (neither of which would be affected by True Seeing).

Also, consider this: if Redcloak could see past the portal with True Seeing, he'd be given false information. He would see the Order in front of him, only to have them vanish as he approaches (and enters the portal). Projectile attacks would collide with a solid image and disappear behind them. In short, True Seeing would create an Illusion; the exact opposite of its intended effect. It makes more sense that he'd see the portal as it is (unaware that it's a portal).

[One Skunk Todd]

I disagree with the premise that the door is being hidden by a magical effect.

I think the big thing that's causing confusion here is that the object doing the concealing is a portal, an object for which we do not have a well-understood mundane counterpart.

Can we agree that the purpose of True Seeing is to reveal an item's true appearance, as opposed to one altered by magic?

If so, then True Seeing should not affect the portal. The true appearance of the portal is the same as it would appear to be with mundane vision. The only trouble is that it's not obvious it's a portal, even if you can see it properly, but the same could be said if it were a sufficiently well-made painting or a pane of glass (neither of which would be affected by True Seeing).

Also, consider this: if Redcloak could see past the portal with True Seeing, he'd be given false information. He would see the Order in front of him, only to have them vanish as he approaches (and enters the portal). Projectile attacks would collide with a solid image and disappear behind them. In short, True Seeing would create an Illusion; the exact opposite of its intended effect. It makes more sense that he'd see the portal as it is (unaware that it's a portal).

It would be interesting to know if True Seeing would work if you were standing in the Dead End or the Mystery Tunnel, since the view you get through the portal from those points IS NOT where you go if you step through the portal. In that case the destination IS concealed by a magical effect.

[Kantaki]

It would be interesting to know if True Seeing would work if you were standing in the Dead End or the Mystery Tunnel, since the view you get through the portal from those points IS NOT where you go if you step through the portal. In that case the destination IS concealed by a magical effect.

No it isn't, technically speaking.
There is no magic concealing anything, there's magic revealing something.
Namely where you will end up when using the portal as intended.
Divination, not illusion.

Basically a walk-in TV. When walking through the screen you end up in the place it shows you, but if you get behind and look back you'd see the room you (and the TV)'re actually in.
Well, technically you'd see the back of the TV, those things aren't usually very see-through after all.
Also, if you try what Roy did you will hit your head. And probably knock over the screen.
So, just forget the TV metaphor. It's magic.

[Snails]

It would be interesting to know if True Seeing would work if you were standing in the Dead End or the Mystery Tunnel, since the view you get through the portal from those points IS NOT where you go if you step through the portal. In that case the destination IS concealed by a magical effect.

Remember: "[True Seeing] does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like."

So True Seeing has no general ability to penetrate concealment at all, even concealment created by most magical effects, exception in some specified cases like Darkness.

[Snails]

She must have prepared against it otherwise redcloak would have noticed it when he used his truesight.

IIRC 1e/2e True Seeing included that ability to see auras of magic and alignment and similar, so it was in every way better than Detect Magic.

3e True Seeing does not overlap with 3e Detect Magic at all. Their benefits are now highly orthogonal.

Note that it looks like True Seeing would not even help against a Glyph of Warding. The glyph is not magically hidden. It is a magically created trap in plain sight that is simply difficult to see, unless you get down on your hands and knees with a magnifying glass and look very carefully (Take 20).

[b_jonas]

Snails: Yes, I'm not saying that with True Seeing you could see the tunnel behind the scrying screen. I'm just saying that with True Seeing you'd be able to tell that it's a scrying screen, it wouldn't just blend in as if there was no trap and the tunnel shown by the scrying is a smooth continuation of the tunnel where you entered. So Xykon and Redcloak would know that there's some kind of a trap, even if they might not have disabled it or dug around it or looked behind it.

[Riftwolf]

My guess is a movie called "Apocalypse Now" but it might be something else. (FWIW, that movie is in a lot of ways a re telling of Joseph Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness', and "the horror, the horror" was in that story as well). Here's a little discussion on it.

Thanks for getting the reference! I just remembered the childhood torment of running through those cyclic castles and got the Thousand Yard Stare...

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Well it's not a door, is it? It's a corridor at best. If I put up a projector screen in the middle of a hallway, does that make the hallway a door?



Hmm, I see what you mean, but I'm not actually seeing anything that suggests True Seeing lets you see scrying sensors. There's only really this:



I think maybe Redcloak just blew the Int check even if this trap does use scrying sensors. I doubt Redcloak's been routinely scanning dungeons with True Seeing, not when every dungeon dive burns a lot of spell slots and he had very little reason to suspect this kind of thing until now.

That being said, I suppose it's possible that by RAW you're right but the Giant's just handwaving that or flat-out forgot. Or it maybe was obscured by stronger, perhaps even Epic magic; I don't think it's too far-fetched for Serini getting help from the other Scribblers when making her dungeons.

The projection becomes the door by virtue of it's separating the hallway into two parts traversable though the "doorway".
True Seeing allows you to see invisible objects (such as the invisible sensors created by divinations such as Scrying).
An an intelligence check to notice the sensor implies the OotS is using Pathfinder?

I disagree with the premise that the door is being hidden by a magical effect.

I think the big thing that's causing confusion here is that the object doing the concealing is a portal, an object for which we do not have a well-understood mundane counterpart.

Can we agree that the purpose of True Seeing is to reveal an item's true appearance, as opposed to one altered by magic?

If so, then True Seeing should not affect the portal. The true appearance of the portal is the same as it would appear to be with mundane vision. The only trouble is that it's not obvious it's a portal, even if you can see it properly, but the same could be said if it were a sufficiently well-made painting or a pane of glass (neither of which would be affected by True Seeing).

Also, consider this: if Redcloak could see past the portal with True Seeing, he'd be given false information. He would see the Order in front of him, only to have them vanish as he approaches (and enters the portal). Projectile attacks would collide with a solid image and disappear behind them. In short, True Seeing would create an Illusion; the exact opposite of its intended effect. It makes more sense that he'd see the portal as it is (unaware that it's a portal).

The item's true appearance (unaltered by magic) is revealed in Strip #1220 when the magical effects are disabled. Thus, if we agree that True Seeing reveals an item's true appearance, as opposed to one altered by magic, then we must agree that True Seeing reveals the secret passage.

However, I disagree that True Seeing reveals an item's true appearance, as opposed to one altered by magic... meaning that True Seeing does not conceal magical effects. For example, True Seeing should reveal both reality and an illusion disguising reality. For example, True Seeing reveals both the Ethereal Plane and the Material Plane. True Seeing does not reveal one at the expense of the other. So Redcloak should be able to see both the destination revealed in the portal as well as that which is concealed by the magical effect of the portal. He doesn't have to settle for one at the expense of the other. Consider the case of what True Seeing reveals about an area affected by Mirage Arcane.

[Snails]

Snails: Yes, I'm not saying that with True Seeing you could see the tunnel behind the scrying screen. I'm just saying that with True Seeing you'd be able to tell that it's a scrying screen, it wouldn't just blend in as if there was no trap and the tunnel shown by the scrying is a smooth continuation of the tunnel where you entered. So Xykon and Redcloak would know that there's some kind of a trap, even if they might not have disabled it or dug around it or looked behind it.

The language of the True Seeing spell is highly ambiguous on that point. I am not saying your assertion is unreasonable -- it is indeed reasonable. I am saying that there are other also reasonable interpretations that give different answers.

While using a Scrying Screen like this feels a lot like an illusion, effects that confound the eye do not necessarily have to be illusions, e.g. a magical fog may hide an army while not being revealed as anything unnatural under the gaze of True Seeing.

[Ironsmith]

The item's true appearance (unaltered by magic) is revealed in Strip #1220 when the magical effects are disabled. Thus, if we agree that True Seeing reveals an item's true appearance, as opposed to one altered by magic, then we must agree that True Seeing reveals the secret passage.

Only if we view the portal as a fabrication: a thing which isn't really there.

The means by which the portal conceals the passage is the most mundane in the world: it sits there, in the way, preventing the travel of light from point A to B. The trick is that, since it looks like the hallway leading into it, it's not obvious to an observer that it's a portal.

When Haley shorted out the trap, she didn't change the portal's appearance; she turned it off temporarily. For a few seconds, the portal simply wasn't there.

[Snails]

There is no specific ability granted by True Seeing to penetrate every kind of concealment that so happens to involve magic. For example, you cannot see through a Wall of Fire. The fire is really there, and looking at the fire to perceive its true form shows you fire. True Seeing gives you no information about what might be hiding behind that fire.

In this case, an intervening vision of some other corridor that is between you and the physically proximate corridor, if that fools someone, that is a trick of geometry.