OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

Thanks for getting the reference! I just remembered the childhood torment of running through those cyclic castles and got the Thousand Yard Stare...

It was after I saw that film that I went out and bought my first Doors album. This is the end, beautiful friend ... haunting voice, and the air strike coming in as the credits rolled. Man, that's a while ago. Saw it when it came out ...

[danielxcutter]

I'm just going to address these points and drop out before I pop a blood vessel or something.

The projection becomes the door by virtue of it's separating the hallway into two parts traversable though the "doorway".

According to Merriam-Webster, a door is defined as

a usually swinging or sliding frame or barrier by which an entrance (as into a house) is closed and opened

so no, that's not a door.

True Seeing allows you to see invisible objects (such as the invisible sensors created by divinations such as Scrying).

I think that might be RAI, but it's kinda weird, I honestly expected the rules to explain this. Does True Seeing automatically reveal that someone's using a scrying sensor on you even if you're not looking at it, since there's no Spot or Search check? Does it mean it's just not invisible any more and you can see it now? Can you only notice it if you make the Int check?

An an intelligence check to notice the sensor implies the OotS is using Pathfinder?.

Then you don't know the rules as well as your username implies, then; I got that from the description of the Scrying subschool on the 3.5e SRD.

---

As for everything else in the "but True Seeing should work on this" argument, for the last time:

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness,

Not applicable(I don't think anyone's arguing this);

notices secret doors hidden by magic,

As I mentioned earlier, this isn't a door by definition;

sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects,

Same as the line about darkness;

sees invisible creatures or objects normally,

Where is there anything invisible? I suppose the point about the scrying sensor makes sense, but I dunno. Maybe Rich forgot, or being able to see invisible things doesn't mean you automatically notice the sensor, or you have to pass the Int check to notice it at all;

sees through illusions,

The trap uses no Illusion spells at all, only Conjuration and a little Divination.

and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.

Nope.

Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces).

Not relevant.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to unsubscribe from a comic thread for the first time ever before I end up doing something I regret.

[subtledoctor]

The idea that there is a “scrying sensor” (I honestly don’t even know what that is) involves a huge assumption. And IMHO an incorrect one.

This is a portal. A permanent teleportation. A wormhole connecting two points in space. But when that wormhole is active, those points in space are connected. As others have said, not only do bugbears and liches move freely through the wormhole, but so does air, and dust, and light. When that wormhole is active those two disparate tunnels are joined into a single tunnel. Thus, when you look into the tunnel the path of the light hitting your eyes goes from the monster dungeon through the portal to you. What you see is what is really there, in its true form, according to the topography of space in that vicinity. What you see is where you go, and where you go is what you see.

There is no scrying. No remote observation, no projection of some other place.

Of course the topography of space is unusual in this case, and that’s magic. But there’s nothing deceptive, nothing invisible, in short nothing that True Seeing might reveal. There is a magic trap made up of tiny runes that compose the boundary of a wormhole, but those aren’t magically hidden; they are simply an epic-level trap that is hard to spot.

Now, from where the OOTS is, in the yellow corridor, this is not true. Crossing the portal goes to the dead end, but they see the entrance of the monster dungeon. Where you go is not what you see, and what you see is not where you go. So it stands to reason that this image, of the tunnel entrance, is actually the result of scrying.

And that makes a ton of sense anyway. If you were guarding a cosmic macguffin you could stand in the yellow hallway and note who was entering, and they would not see you and you wouldn’t even have to employ invisibility or the like to be hidden from them.

[Ruck]

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to unsubscribe from a comic thread for the first time ever before I end up doing something I regret.

Wait, you can unsubscribe from threads here? How?

[Rogar Demonblud]

It should be under thread tools at the top of the page. If not there, go to your control panel.

[Ruck]

It should be under thread tools at the top of the page. If not there, go to your control panel.

Most UBB forums I've been on auto-subscribe you to a thread when you post. This one doesn't but still displays a checkmark next to any thread you've posted in and I don't know how to get rid of that.

[Goblin_Priest]

I feel like True Seeing /should/ see through the trap, as it meant to see things as they /are/, unmaking illusions, polymorphs, and such. But I'm also willing to accept that the GM (Rich) rule otherwise, because, per your arguments, it's not too much of a stretch.

[subtledoctor]

I feel like True Seeing /should/ see through the trap, as it meant to see things as they /are/,

No -

"when that wormhole is active, those points in space are connected. What you see is what is really there, in its true form"

The trap is not an illusion, it is not magically hidden, there is nothing to see through, nothing being displayed other than as it really is. That just is how space works inside that tunnel. When Haley disabled the trap space worked differently for 20 minutes, and they walked into a different tunnel. But with the portal active again, space/air/vision goes from the entrance to the green tunnel. That is how the world really is in that tunnel, so there is no reason for True Seeing to show you anything different.

[One Skunk Todd]

The light in that place near the Door must be weird. The light gets halved or duplicated as it crosses the portal trap, illuminating both the Mystery and Monster tunnels, and the Dead End gets light further reduced by being reflected back from the Monster Tunnel. Unless there's another source of illumination altogether.

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Only if we view the portal as a fabrication: a thing which isn't really there.

The means by which the portal conceals the passage is the most mundane in the world: it sits there, in the way, preventing the travel of light from point A to B. The trick is that, since it looks like the hallway leading into it, it's not obvious to an observer that it's a portal.

When Haley shorted out the trap, she didn't change the portal's appearance; she turned it off temporarily. For a few seconds, the portal simply wasn't there.

I think I understand your argument. So correct me if I'm wrong. You claim that the portal (when active) is an actual physical object and therefore hides the secret entrance by mundane means.

However, True Seeing specifically calls out noticing secret doors hidden by magic. That's why the school of magic doesn't matter in this case. Without magic, the entrance cannot be hidden, therefore, it is noticed.

In other words, it is not hidden by mundane means. Magic is necessary to hide the entrance.

Do you agree that strip #1220 shows what you see when there is no magic active?
Do you agree that magic must be active in order for the secret entrance to not be plainly visible?
If you disagree, then why?

There is no specific ability granted by True Seeing to penetrate every kind of concealment that so happens to involve magic. For example, you cannot see through a Wall of Fire. The fire is really there, and looking at the fire to perceive its true form shows you fire. True Seeing gives you no information about what might be hiding behind that fire.

In this case, an intervening vision of some other corridor that is between you and the physically proximate corridor, if that fools someone, that is a trick of geometry.

In this case, the True Seeing spell specifically brings to the attention of the affected if the Wall of Fire hides a secret door. Wall of Fire cannot be used to hide a secret door from True Seeing. However, I will agree that True Seeing does not indicate that it reveals the presence or absence of creatures. So if there are creatures hiding on the other side of a Wall of Fire, True Seeing does not necessarily reveal them. If we follow a similar logic, then it may be possible to conceal the OotS when the portal is active.

According to Merriam-Webster, a door is defined as
so no, that's not a door.

I think that might be RAI, but it's kinda weird, I honestly expected the rules to explain this. Does True Seeing automatically reveal that someone's using a scrying sensor on you even if you're not looking at it, since there's no Spot or Search check? Does it mean it's just not invisible any more and you can see it now? Can you only notice it if you make the Int check?

Then you don't know the rules as well as your username implies, then; I got that from the description of the Scrying subschool on the 3.5e SRD.

Yeah, I looked up "door" before I responded to you. It includes doorway.
In 3.5, True Seeing also reveals invisible objects. Thanks for letting me know that's where you got the idea of the Int check.

The idea that there is a “scrying sensor” (I honestly don’t even know what that is) involves a huge assumption. And IMHO an incorrect one.

This is a portal. A permanent teleportation. A wormhole connecting two points in space. But when that wormhole is active, those points in space are connected. As others have said, not only do bugbears and liches move freely through the wormhole, but so does air, and dust, and light. When that wormhole is active those two disparate tunnels are joined into a single tunnel. Thus, when you look into the tunnel the path of the light hitting your eyes goes from the monster dungeon through the portal to you. What you see is what is really there, in its true form, according to the topography of space in that vicinity. What you see is where you go, and where you go is what you see.

There is no scrying. No remote observation, no projection of some other place.

Of course the topography of space is unusual in this case, and that’s magic. But there’s nothing deceptive, nothing invisible, in short nothing that True Seeing might reveal. There is a magic trap made up of tiny runes that compose the boundary of a wormhole, but those aren’t magically hidden; they are simply an epic-level trap that is hard to spot.

Now, from where the OOTS is, in the yellow corridor, this is not true. Crossing the portal goes to the dead end, but they see the entrance of the monster dungeon. Where you go is not what you see, and what you see is not where you go. So it stands to reason that this image, of the tunnel entrance, is actually the result of scrying.

And that makes a ton of sense anyway. If you were guarding a cosmic macguffin you could stand in the yellow hallway and note who was entering, and they would not see you and you wouldn’t even have to employ invisibility or the like to be hidden from them.

I like the idea that it is not Teleportation or Scrying. But if it is magic that allows the OotS to view the entrance from their corridor, then it doesn't matter that the portal is an actual physical passage to somewhere. There will need to be an invisible sensor in play and it would be noticed by True Seeing. If the portal is teleporting them, then it means the view through the portal involves an invisible sensor. Invisible sensors are not limited to the "Scrying" spell. Any remote viewing involves them.

No -

"when that wormhole is active, those points in space are connected. What you see is what is really there, in its true form"

The trap is not an illusion, it is not magically hidden, there is nothing to see through, nothing being displayed other than as it really is. That just is how space works inside that tunnel. When Haley disabled the trap space worked differently for 20 minutes, and they walked into a different tunnel. But with the portal active again, space/air/vision goes from the entrance to the green tunnel. That is how the world really is in that tunnel, so there is no reason for True Seeing to show you anything different.

Yeah, that doesn't matter, because True Seeing doesn't care what type of magic is used to hide a secret door. Are you are trying to argue that the secret door is not hidden by the magical effect? Because it seems to me that only reason the secret corridor is not revealed is because this magical effect is hiding it.

Do you agree that if the magical effect of the portal is dispelled or dismissed or otherwise nullified, then the secret passage is revealed?

In conclusion, I'm not sure anyone is convinced by what I've pointed out, but on the other hand, I have not found anyone's arguments convincing either. If I have failed to articulate any point in anyone's argument let me know, because I think I've understood every point everyone's made here regarding this. To sum up, the general counter argument people are making is: the portal is a physical object and therefore conceals the secret door from True Seeing by mundane means. I have already pointed out the problem with this argument.

[Snails]

In this case, the True Seeing spell specifically brings to the attention of the affected if the Wall of Fire hides a secret door. Wall of Fire cannot be used to hide a secret door from True Seeing. However, I will agree that True Seeing does not indicate that it reveals the presence or absence of creatures. So if there are creatures hiding on the other side of a Wall of Fire, True Seeing does not necessarily reveal them. If we follow a similar logic, then it may be possible to conceal the OotS when the portal is active.

You are not crazy for imagining that, because I was thinking along similar lines due to experience with 1e/2e. But the text of the 3e spell fails to support your assertion.

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment [emphasis added], including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Wall of Fire, as per the spell text, most certainly can conceal a secret door from True Seeing. As can fog, magical or otherwise.

The spell text specifies that True Seeing offers no added ability to penetrate concealment.
The fire from a Wall of Fire is fire, even from a magical source. It gets in the way of seeing things.
Fog, even from a spell, is fog. It gets in the way of seeing things.
A Scrying Screen shows a certain view of a place. It gets in the way of seeing things.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Most UBB forums I've been on auto-subscribe you to a thread when you post. This one doesn't but still displays a checkmark next to any thread you've posted in and I don't know how to get rid of that.

You can't, because it's an activity marker. You were active there, so it's marked as such.

[Snails]

The idea that there is a “scrying sensor” (I honestly don’t even know what that is) involves a huge assumption. And IMHO an incorrect one.

This is a portal. A permanent teleportation. A wormhole connecting two points in space. But when that wormhole is active, those points in space are connected.

I agree that the idea of a very Local Gate initially made more sense to me than involving any kind of Scrying. The biggest reason was economy of effort. It seems like the this teleport/scry trick involves having twice as many corridors as Doors. If the Order were the group who walked through a Gate, then there might be some modest number of corridors in/out of the secret dungeon complex.

But the idea of getting something functionally similar to a Gate with teleport + scry is plausible. The idea that you can be scrying without knowing you are scrying may be surprising, but it is not strange as D&D magic goes.

[Ironsmith]

I think I understand your argument. So correct me if I'm wrong. You claim that the portal (when active) is an actual physical object and therefore hides the secret entrance by mundane means.

That's about the sum of it, yes.

However, True Seeing specifically calls out noticing secret doors hidden by magic. That's why the school of magic doesn't matter in this case. Without magic, the entrance cannot be hidden, therefore, it is noticed.

In other words, it is not hidden by mundane means. Magic is necessary to hide the entrance.

The only reason magic is necessary to hide the door is because it's necessary to have the portal there in the first place.

Do you agree that strip #1220 shows what you see when there is no magic active?
Do you agree that magic must be active in order for the secret entrance to not be plainly visible?
If you disagree, then why?

Yes and yes, but all the same, I dispute the conclusion.

Even though the portal is a magical object, it's still there, and the fact that it is magical is not what is obscuring whatever is behind it.

Consider this; if there were a painting of a dead end there instead of a portal, True Seeing would not affect it. Suppose this painting were made in such a way that casting Dispel Magic on it would destroy it: the frame is held together by magic, the pigments are given the appropriate viscosity by magic, whatever. Should True Seeing be able to see through that painting?

[Squeeq]

Curse my predisposition to be drawn into internet arguments.

The teleportation effect isn't hiding a door because the teleportation effect is a door itself.

You walk through it and end up in another place, just like a regular door. The only difference is that the other side of the door is somewhere else. Think of it like collapsible attic stairs in an older house. It used to be the second floor hallway, but now, it's stairs that go up. The magical effect is the lowering of the stairs that blocks access and vision to the rest of the hallway, like casting some sort of arcane gate spell at the entrance to your bedroom or something.

[F.Harr]

Toormuck was a clever person, wasn't she. :)

[KorvinStarmast]

Toormuck was a clever person, wasn't she. :)

I am going with "Is a clever person" since I am not convinced that she's no longer among the quick.

Hobbits/Halflings live longer than humans, by a bit, and her adventuring group was active about 60 years ago in OoTS land years.

Granny Toormuck, is, in my head canon, sitting on a rocking chair somewhere enjoying her retirement, possibly under an alias (she is a rogue, after all). My only bit of puzzlement is why her diary was not in her possession when Xykon happened upon it. That's the sole bit of evidence that Serini passed away before the party got underway with their quest chain ... but there's no hobbitus corpus.

Granted, that's hardly strong evidence of "she must not be dead." (Absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence).

Aside: I still listen to the original sound track recording of Evita, the musical, now and again because I like it. During the opening monologue the narrator recounts, in a somber voice, one of those curious bits of history: a few years after her state funeral, Eva's body / casket was hidden for about 17 years. Serini Toormuck's remains likewise, if she has passed away, might have been hidden for {some reason, either family or scribbleorder based} - or she might have been eaten by a dragon.

[Goblin_Priest]

The trap is magic, and it hides a hidden passage (door). The gate is not a physical thing that happened to be magically created, like fire or fog, but a magical entity, a localized effect. The trap magically blocks the view of what's behind by transporting everything that crosses it to a pre-determined location.

[Snails]

The trap is magic, and it hides a hidden passage (door). The gate is not a physical thing that happened to be magically created, like fire or fog, but a magical entity, a localized effect. The trap magically blocks the view of what's behind by transporting everything that crosses it to a pre-determined location.

"Blocks the view" sounds exactly like concealment, for which True Seeing offers no specific ability to penetrate, as per the spell text.

As for the trap being magic, I am not sure why that matters. Haley found it without using magic. Given the spell description of Glyph of Warding, typical trap spells have observable traces that are physically there, and most adventurers could find them if they got down on their hands and knees with a magnifying glass to look inch by inch. It is unclear whether True Seeing affords any benefit to spotting a Glyph of Warding -- either ruling is plausible.

For the record, I fully understand why there is disagreement here, and if the DM ruled at the table one way or the other, I would not give him or her any grief about it. There seems to be no absolutely clearcut way to distinguish between "hidden by magic" and "concealment (involving magic)" that will likely create a consensus. I am arguing for one view to point out that what it appears the The Giant is doing here does fall within a very reasonable interpretation of the RAW, not that it is the only reasonable interpretation.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually, this is one of those points that were probably cleared up by an item in the Sage Advice column a couple decades ago.

[Goblin_Priest]

"Blocks the view" sounds exactly like concealment, for which True Seeing offers no specific ability to penetrate, as per the spell text.

As for the trap being magic, I am not sure why that matters. Haley found it without using magic. Given the spell description of Glyph of Warding, typical trap spells have observable traces that are physically there, and most adventurers could find them if they got down on their hands and knees with a magnifying glass to look inch by inch. It is unclear whether True Seeing affords any benefit to spotting a Glyph of Warding -- either ruling is plausible.

For the record, I fully understand why there is disagreement here, and if the DM ruled at the table one way or the other, I would not give him or her any grief about it. There seems to be no absolutely clearcut way to distinguish between "hidden by magic" and "concealment (involving magic)" that will likely create a consensus. I am arguing for one view to point out that what it appears the The Giant is doing here does fall within a very reasonable interpretation of the RAW, not that it is the only reasonable interpretation.

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

The teleport trap is unarguably "magic", and not "mundane". The trap doesn't create "concealment", it hides the passage by showing the destination of its teleport effect. It is, essentially, hiding the passage with magic.

It's the equivalent of using an illusion spell to hide the passage with a wall, or a picture of somewhere else (which, essentially, this is). True Seeing sees through illusions. An illusionary wall is not concealment, even though it hides the view. I would view this in the same way.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Except what you're being shown is NOT an illusion. It's a divination, and the spell text does not include divinations in the very specific list of things it sees through.

[Goblin_Priest]

Except what you're being shown is NOT an illusion. It's a divination, and the spell text does not include divinations in the very specific list of things it sees through.

Divination it might be, but that divination is blocking the sight of the secret corridor that's behind it.

I don't think anyone's going to convince anyone at this point. I get your arguments, and if my GM made such a call I wouldn't argue with him (too much), but if I were GM, I'd rule the other way.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Divination it might be, but that divination is blocking the sight of the secret corridor that's behind it.

So would a wooden wall, and true sight doesn't see through those either. In fact, the divination effect of seeing to the other side of a magical portal is essentially a crystal-ball like effect, and true sight explicitly doesn't work through those either.

GW

[mashlagoo1982]

I don't think True Seeing would help see through the trick of the portal either.

The closest line that may impact this scenario is "notices secret doors hidden by magic".
However, this is not a secret door being hidden by magic.

Weird oversite by game developers or intentional omission?
I don't know, but the party clearly walked through a door just before triggering this trap.
So, this trap is not impacting anything door related and thus True Seeing is irrelevant to the scenario being presented.

[Goblin_Priest]

So would a wooden wall, and true sight doesn't see through those either. In fact, the divination effect of seeing to the other side of a magical portal is essentially a crystal-ball like effect, and true sight explicitly doesn't work through those either.

GW

A wooden wall is a physical barrier, though, not a magical effect.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A wooden wall is a physical barrier, though, not a magical effect.

And that difference is irrelevant to how True Seeing works. True Seeing can't see through either of them.

ETA: also, the corridor is not "secret" and there is no such thing as a "Secret Corridor" in the rules anyway. It is just partially inaccessible.

GW

[Gallowglass]

From reading this forum for the last several years, its clear that there is a large subset (perhaps even a majority) of 3.5 D&D players that think that Detect Magic, Truesight, Greater Arcane sight and other such divination spells do everything.

the same subset of players who then bemoan things like the uselessness of rogues. Who needs someone to find and remove traps, stealth about and pick pockets when you can do it all better with spells.

This subset are never going to be happy with this particular sequence in the comic because they will refuse to accept or even continence that Xkyon and Redcloak have missed the Trap all this time. Because, to them, detect magic and/or truesight should've immediately revealed the trap, or they should've known they were being teleported or so on and so on.

I happen to agree with (what I infer is the Giant's apparent view) that the tiny thin line of runes is a magical trap hidden by mundane means (being written very tiny and camouflaged in the natural grain of the rock) that you need someone with Trap-finding to even notice. The only reason V can now diagnose it with Detect Magic is because its been pointed out to them. If it hadn't been, their detect magic would've swept right over it without noticing the slight glimmer.

Similar to early comics where there were secret doors plainly visible on walls with a S with a line through it like on old D&D maps and no one could see it unless they had the class or racial features to see it.

Personally, if I was going to nitpick any part of this sequence it would be the teleport without saving throw part. But if I went through my old modules I'm sure I could find quite a few teleport portals without saving throws inside. It feels like they were a fairly common trope in dungeon building.

[Riftwolf]

A somewhat related point: can a person who cast True Seeing also use Scrying, or would they just see a pool/mirror?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A somewhat related point: can a person who cast True Seeing also use Scrying, or would they just see a pool/mirror?

They can use the scrying tool, but the effects of True Seeing stop at the pool/mirror/crystal ball. So if they scry on an invisible person, they don't see them, even if they would have if it was in the room with them. (If the mirror was illusioned into a different object, though, they'd see through that, and they'd see the mirror as it truly is, which might allow them to use it as a scrying tool, even if to everyone else in the room it looks like, I don't know, a compendium of synonyms for the word "squelch" (vol. 11))

ETA: this is the full list of what True Seeing does:

• The subject sees through normal and magical darkness

No magical darkness involved in this scene

• notices secret doors hidden by magic

No secret door. A teleporting wormhole is not a door, secret or otherwise. And the corridor behind it is not "secret", is just inaccessible, just if it were a very large pitfall trap in the way. And if it were secret (which isn't a thing in the rules), true sight would still not include it in its things it can do.

• sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects

No blur or displacement effect

• sees invisible creatures or objects normally

No invisible anythings

• sees through illusions

No illusions. Divination is a different magic class entirely.

• sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things

None of those involved

• the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces)

Blackwing's mindlink establishes they haven't been moved to another plane. Not that it would help even if they had.

Grey Wolf