OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

[AvangionQ]

Roy's order was to fly in for a moment. Blackwing did well.

[ebarde]

The people on the village definetly would know this all by now, I mean they seem to specialize in hunting and tracking. It's just a matter of them not really caring, as they don't seem to have much stake in this race.

[JonahFalcon]

The people on the village definetly would know this all by now, I mean they seem to specialize in hunting and tracking. It's just a matter of them not really caring, as they don't seem to have much stake in this race.

Why? Why would they think something is odd? Monster Hollow has monsters in them. They're not "are we SURE these tunnels go where they seem to go?" because they just know the tunnels lead to dinnertime.

[Kantaki]

Why? Why would they think something is odd? Monster Hollow has monsters in them. They're not "are we SURE these tunnels go where they seem to go?" because they just know the tunnels lead to dinnertime.

I would argue that (some of) the bugbears probably know there's something weird about those tunnels.
The more magically inclined might even know their hunters are transported somewhere.

But yeah, why should they care?
To them it's a feature, not a bug.
Why mess with the easy access to all the food and the pets and the toys? Just to look at empty corridors*?

The thought that whatever important thingamajig R&X are looking for might be behind the trap probably doesn't even register to them- All the good stuff is through it after all. And even if Oona has a idea she won't tell them.
She's here to make sure the guests don't ruin the bugbears' livelihood as much as she's here to play guide for them.

*Assuming someone even tried at some point.

[mjasghar]

if Sirini was truly pragmatic, Monster Hollow would have no way to connect to the gate, and the gate is merely embedded several hundred feet under rock.

That’s a Seal not a Gate
There definitely seems to have been an intention from the scribblers to be able to enter the rift and possibly access the world inside

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Assuming that panel b7 is mostly accurate. It suggests to me that there is a mirror-effect in play that explains the floor coloring, the scorch-mark, and Blackwing's position without any artist error involved.

For example, Blackwing could be leaving the dungeon in panel b7 and not still exploring the dungeon like everyone thinks he is.

However, the situation as a whole remains insufficiently explained.
Teleportation? Scrying? I don't know. All of that is speculative at best. Right now, the OotS seems to think that's what happened. But we know that even though there is a Conjuration effect and a Divination effect, but they don't have to be Teleportation and Scrying.

The real problem is Redcloak's True Seeing, which would cause Redcloak to notice "secret doors hidden by magic" as well as see "invisible creatures and objects" such as scrying sensors. If such magical effects were disguised with some sort of nondetection magic, then V's Detect Magic should've failed to detect them properly. This adds fuel to the fire of questions from the previous strip: there doesn't seem to be a clear answer yet to the question of why Redcloak failed to notice anything with True Seeing.

Redcloak notices the secret door hidden by magic (it doesn't matter what school of magic was used). There's no explanation for why Redcloak failed to noticed the secret entrance. It's a secret door hidden by magic!

If Teleported and Scrying, then Redcloak True Sees the invisible sensor.

Multi-dimensional stone! I foil all your spells - GM Hax - Ha ha ha? It's still the best explanation. Not that I blame a GM... I mean True Seeing: now I can't put any secret doors in my dungeons? *cry cry*

[Spriteless]

I always love poking around with magic to see how it works. D&D PCs always do, which is refreshing when so many fictional characters just treat what makes their worlds special as a mystery or a plot convenience. Science the hell out of that magic guys!

[Shining Wrath]

The Azure City gate did not require any regular access by those guarding it, as it was in the air above the city. We don't know how the seals work, but I don't recall any statement in the Order of the Scribble's tale that the seals needed tending, either.

If you want access, there's one place where there's a tunnel in sealed by only 5' of rock. It's a hobbit-sized tunnel, because only Serini went in there. So Belkar will be the chosen Stick to go down there - and that's where he'll die, because he'll miss the Glyph of Warding or something similar.

[Xel]

The straightforward topology of the system (discussed in detail already) feels, well, too obvious. Feels like it's designed for someone who suspects a shell game. So I'm thinking the shell game itself is a shell game, especially with the contradictory evidence.

Shell game layer 1: All of the doors and monster dungeons if you don't realize there's a trap that must be disabled. The gate is not in any of these dungeons. If you figure that out, you quickly figure out the two-dungeons-per-door setup and the obvious way the trap works. You're also now alerted to watch for other such "traps" as you proceed through the second set of dungeons.

Shell game layer 2: You now proceed to explore the second set of hidden dungeons. The gate is not in any of these. The "have to tunnel through the rock to get to the gate" option is sort of such a second shell game, but why stop there? Make the "dead end" be actually a third dungeon entirely, and you have to disable the its teleportation trap to not go back to the second one. Stack this out N layers, but hide a second "trap" under/just behind one halfway through the sequence that you have to find and disable (or not disable) in order to follow the new trail. Connect some of the traps one-way to dungeons behind the other doors. Eventually you make the topology so incredibly confusing that it'll take decades to figure it out.

The "errors" in the second layer shell game (floor color difference in only one, burn mark error, expressly drawing a teleport effect for Blackwing leaving) crossing feel like they're subtle efforts to foreshadow something more.

...Or it could just be that the floor by the door was colored to match the decoy dungeon, that the teleport effect was just to foreshadow Blackwing leaving on their own initiative, and the burn mark seen from the dead-end tunnel is an art error. Guess we wait and find out.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

For example, Blackwing could be leaving the dungeon in panel b7 and not still exploring the dungeon like everyone thinks he is.

The problem is that Blackwing is clearly still beyond the portal, because we can see the portal being used in panel b9 (in your panel numbering system). See that white glow and the white line on the wall behind Belkar, that was Blackwing going back. So, in b7, he was still at the position we see in b3.

The scorch mark is either an art error or nobody understood how the portals really work. Neither us here nor Roy and the OotS.

[Ghosty]

The problem is that Blackwing is clearly still beyond the portal, because we can see the portal being used in panel b9 (in your panel numbering system). See that white glow and the white line on the wall behind Belkar, that was Blackwing going back. So, in b7, he was still at the position we see in b3.

The scorch mark is either an art error or nobody understood how the portals really work. Neither us here nor Roy and the OotS.

Since we know that the scorch mark only exists on the door side, and for the dungeon side too where the Order is, we can know that if Roy sees it looking backwards at the portal it means he's seeing what exists on the door side. Which is why he sees Blackwing zipping out of the dungeon.

I am guessing both sides of the portal (the side where Roy's head is, and the side TE zipped down) show that image. So, whichever side of the portal you're on in TE's dungeon, you get zapped back towards the door.

Anyone but Xykon coming back (because he doesn't care) might notice an unusually split off scorch mark along the wall. Might be how RC figures out that they've been had this whole time. Which leads to all sorts of questions for Oona and the Bugbear Village.

Oh, and though it's been repeated ad nauseam throughout this thread and the last couple of strip threads, True Seeing shouldn't show anything about this trap. Though it is interesting that Detect Magic from the Door side of the portal doesn't seem to detect the portal.

[Ironsmith]

A random thought occurs to me; the differing colors between the two floors might not be intentional in-universe. The door opens out into the Random Dungeon via the portal, so the floor right next to the door and the floor in the Random Dungeon are both going to be subject to the same wear and tear, dust buildup, chemical erosion, et cetera, while the floor of the Real Dungeon would be relatively untouched by the same, thanks to the portal. Note even that it's a fair bit less faded than the Random Dungeon's floor, like it was made yesterday. Interesting detail.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Since we know that the scorch mark only exists on the door side, and for the dungeon side too where the Order is, we can know that if Roy sees it looking backwards at the portal it means he's seeing what exists on the door side. Which is why he sees Blackwing zipping out of the dungeon.

But if we see the "mirror image", then we should not see Blackwing at all, because at that point in time he had not crossed the portal back to the door yet, he's still on the other side. He only crosses it on panel 20.

I am guessing both sides of the portal (the side where Roy's head is, and the side TE zipped down) show that image. So, whichever side of the portal you're on in TE's dungeon, you get zapped back towards the door.

That's also strange to me, since Roy can get back to where the OotS is after leaning his torso to see the dead end. One can argue that it only does that if you cross your whole body, but that seems needlessly complicated to me.

[bunsen_h]

Hmm. According to my theory, from the point of view of Roy with his head in the dead-end area, no mark should be visible on the floor. He's seeing an image of Blackwing hovering in a section of corridor which doesn't contain the mark, and the mark isn't present on Roy's side. This is before Blackwing flies back, passes through the plane of the "trap" line -- on the left edge of panel 20 overall, panel 9 of the second page, we see the "splash" -- and exits.

[Ruck]

You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too?

I said "detecting," not "disabling."

[facw]

This is before Blackwing flies back, passes through the plane of the "trap" line -- on the left edge of panel 20 overall, panel 9 of the second page, we see the "splash" -- and exits.

Neat, I completely missed that we can see the effect from Blackwing crossing back

[pearl jam]

It's possible that the last flash is someone other than Blackwing crossing back over as well and we just haven't seen it spelled out yet.

[Snails]

The real problem is Redcloak's True Seeing, which would cause Redcloak to notice "secret doors hidden by magic" as well as see "invisible creatures and objects" such as scrying sensors. If such magical effects were disguised with some sort of nondetection magic, then V's Detect Magic should've failed to detect them properly. This adds fuel to the fire of questions from the previous strip: there doesn't seem to be a clear answer yet to the question of why Redcloak failed to notice anything with True Seeing.

I think it is a simple as Epic Magic can defeat True Seeing, which is something that I as a player would be fine with.

I am not entirely convinced that Roy has interpreted things correctly. My interpretation: If he is seeing a dead end on the other side, then it could be the Order is the one transported. The "trap" that was bypassed was the magical effect that prevented the party from being affected.

There are two layers of magical effect for crossing that line. The Local Gate effect, which is not a trap or inherently dangerous, so Haley did not see it. On top of that is a Prevent Gate From Affecting You "Trap". The second functions within the norms of a trap, applying a harmless effect. Haley bypassed that because its mechanisms look trap-like to her.

This also makes sense insofar as it is more believable that RC with True Seeing is seeing perfectly well a normal corridor. What is hidden by Epic Magic is something that is not directly affecting him at all.

[danielxcutter]

I think it is a simple as Epic Magic can defeat True Seeing, which is something that I as a player would be fine with.

I think it's as simple as "you're interpreting it wrong".

As I already said earlier in the thread, and likely will be several times more, this trap is not hiding a door, does not use magical darkness, is not making things invisible, using illusions, polymorphing, changing, or transmuting anything, or involved with the Ethereal Plane. Therefore, True Seeing does nothing.

I am not entirely convinced that Roy has interpreted things correctly. My interpretation: If he is seeing a dead end on the other side, then it could be the Order is the one transported. The "trap" that was bypassed was the magical effect that prevented the party from being affected.

There are two layers of magical effect for crossing that line. The Local Gate effect, which is not a trap or inherently dangerous, so Haley did not see it. On top of that is a Prevent Gate From Affecting You "Trap". The second functions within the norms of a trap, applying a harmless effect. Haley bypassed that because its mechanisms look trap-like to her.

Also false; if "not being inherently dangerous" means a rogue can't find it then these couldn't be found either; Summon Monster is not inherently a spell that hurts you and neither are Stoneskin or Haste.

This also makes sense insofar as it is more believable that RC with True Seeing is seeing perfectly well a normal corridor. What is hidden by Epic Magic is something that is not directly affecting him at all.

I'm guessing that people are conflating "deception" with "can be seen with True Seeing".

[Ironsmith]

The real problem is Redcloak's True Seeing, which would cause Redcloak to notice "secret doors hidden by magic" as well as see "invisible creatures and objects" such as scrying sensors. If such magical effects were disguised with some sort of nondetection magic, then V's Detect Magic should've failed to detect them properly. This adds fuel to the fire of questions from the previous strip: there doesn't seem to be a clear answer yet to the question of why Redcloak failed to notice anything with True Seeing.

Redcloak notices the secret door hidden by magic (it doesn't matter what school of magic was used). There's no explanation for why Redcloak failed to noticed the secret entrance. It's a secret door hidden by magic!

Because it's not a secret door hidden by magic.

Let me explain. True Seeing does not expose objects hidden by mundane means; it wouldn't reveal a trapdoor hidden under a rug, for instance.

The portal is an actual object, not merely an illusion. If anything can pass through it, that would include air (and therefore sound) and light, therefore making it look and sound like whatever is on the other side, all without the use of illusions. Think of it like looking in a mirror, in effect.

[Ruck]

It's possible that the last flash is someone other than Blackwing crossing back over as well and we just haven't seen it spelled out yet.

I dunno, from the perspective we see the decoy tunnel in page 2, panel 7, I don't see anyone else in there who would be moving back through.

[pearl jam]

I'm just searching for explanations that could explain how the scorch mark is visible without it being an error. however, my previous thought that it might be a flipped image of blackwing already on the way out seems unlikely upon further review because the door is too close to the line in the earlier frames to allow that to be blackwing already back to the door side on his way out the door with the scorch mark properly behind him again.

[Kornaki]

The floor colors also match in that panel, which they shouldn't. I think he just messed up the floor in that panel.

[hamishspence]

Until they put the osquip head down, the tunnel is green:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html

Which suggests that the "entrance tunnel" is green normally, but the area that the party are in is yellow:


As such, because Blackwing is in a green tunnel, it makes sense that panel 18 of this strip be green - because we can see Blackwing:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html

Presumably, both the entrance tunnel, and the tunnel Blackwing is in, are green rather than yellow, to ensure that intruders who fail to disarm the trap, are not tipped off by the floor colour changing when they are teleported.

Whereas the Order are in a special separate, yellow-floored tunnel.

[Ghosty]

But if we see the "mirror image", then we should not see Blackwing at all, because at that point in time he had not crossed the portal back to the door yet, he's still on the other side. He only crosses it on panel 20.



That's also strange to me, since Roy can get back to where the OotS is after leaning his torso to see the dead end. One can argue that it only does that if you cross your whole body, but that seems needlessly complicated to me.

We're sure of when Blackwing starts to head out of the Doom Tunnel? (LOL) Because we don't see Blackwing (other than the panel with Roy's head) between the time Blackwing says "Uh...no?" and the final panel. I infer that Blackwing turns around and zips out while the Order is talking amongst themselves, and Roy's head's panel is a clever way to show that.

As to partial teleportation, we saw with the prior strip and Roy's sword that things have to completely traverse the portal plane in order to get completely teleported. Roy got an entire sword back. We don't know if Roy, standing completely in that dead end space and then re-entering the portal, would be teleported to the Door side of the dungeon, or back to where the Order sits.

It's conceivable---and may even come up with subsequent portals, later---that the portal system might work in some configurations where the Divination part shows on a different part of space than the Conjuration part teleports you to.

Editing again, I like Bunsen's (and Pearl Jam's) point upthread that Roy sees too much of the sides of the corridor for him to be looking through the portal and seeing the Door side of the corridor. There just isn't that much wall between the Door and the plane of the trap. Some part of the Door would be visible if Roy's point of view was looking towards the Door side, rather than deeper into the 'Doom Tunnel.'

[diplomancer]

I love how Belkar is essentially the audience.

I'm not sure if Belkar is the audience; but I love how Blackwing is a DM with a great sense of humor roleplaying a small raven familiar.

[BarakDeathBlade]

We're sure of when Blackwing starts to head out of the Doom Tunnel? (LOL) Because we don't see Blackwing (other than the panel with Roy's head) between the time Blackwing says "Uh...no?" and the final panel. I infer that Blackwing turns around and zips out while the Order is talking amongst themselves, and Roy's head's panel is a clever way to show that.

Two panels after the one with Roy's head, Roy and Belkar are talking and there's a white splash behind them on the portal at the left edge of the panel. It was off panel enough that the WONNNH!! was not visible. But it set up the last panel joke.

[Ironsmith]

It's conceivable---and may even come up with subsequent portals, later---that the portal system might work in some configurations where the Divination part shows on a different part of space than the Conjuration part teleports you to.

Actually, that much is proven already. Roy went through the portal to a dead end, but the portal displays the entrance.

[Robots]

Nice update. :)

I can't wait to see what happens next

[Aaron L]

Smart Fighters are the best Fighters. I love Roy.