OOTS #1224 - The Discussion Thread

[Smoutwortel]

Oh, I didn't know anyone in the order had levels in Trapsmith. Wait, no, they don't.



All of those options have the distinct drawback of also killing their own magic. Which might very well just end up killing them. There's nothing from either of the just moving out of the range of either of those.

Also "the hammer must be an artifact" doesn't mean it has some arbitrary ability to aid with that, even if artifacts worked inside AMFs.



The problem is that by the time they've rested so will Team Evil. And they can't teleport themselves to another dungeon, why would you think that?

I'm guessing you've only played 5e? 3.5e is a bit different. For starters, full casting is super OP.

I'm sorry for using the wrong term.
I said trap, but I meant more like ambush/trap fusion. Tricks like having V fly up with a bolder to drop when the enemy appears or having Harley sit at the top somewhere, so she can more easily choose who she hits.

You're right those options have the problem of killing their own magic too, but as black wing said "they have stronger magic than we do", but they do have better physique, so they should have an advantage in a fight where neither party has access to magic and one sided magic fighting tactics often have the drawback that they can be overcome it with a stronger will or caster level in 3.5e and here Xykon obviously has the superior casting level and will and redcloak has already has already shown in his fight with the high priest of Azure city that he has a strong will safe and he has shown to have a seriously high casting level(9th level spell slots).
You're right that they can't harm Xykon in an anti-magic field(also 5e fault) if what Belkar detroyed by bashing it against a rock for stopping to be his personal wand of fireballs wasn't a lich and liches don't get surpressed or even destroyed from being in an anti-magic field(undead held up by magic), but they can grapple and rob him of his spell components and if they don't do that they can push him out. Yet you're right that is not enough casting silence on Roy and Harley might still help though, because they will be the closest to the enemy casters, don't cast vocal magic, have access to telepathy and Xykon is still a better caster than the rest.
You're right artifacts don't work in an anti-magic field in 3.5e, my 5e msitake.
The idea is resting, while team evil searches for you hence <b>short</b> rest

[Smoutwortel]

If Xykon steps through first, they could turn it off then and fight only Xykon while RC and the others are trapped at the Dead end. Better still, turn it off while Oona and Greyview are stepping through and cut them in half.

ETA: Ignore the cutting in half part, I just realized it doesn't work that way.

Ooh splitting their party, while close to the wizard. That might indeed be worth the risk of exposing the real dungeon

[Snails]

Catch is, only person who can hit Xykon reliably is Roy, and part of that is his magic sword, which I'm guessing would also not be as effective in the anti-magic field. Probably no throw and return, for instance. Not sure if Durkon's hammer would have the same problem - I'm not an RPG'er (except for three specific turn-based video/online games, and two I have not played in months/years) so I don't know all the fiddly details.

In an AMF Xykon is likely to have AC 20 or less. Roy's non-magical To Hit Bonus is likely to be above +20.

The AMF is actually a good idea, not because it stops Xykon cold, but because it reduces his tactical options and forces him to burn precious epic spell slots in unimaginative ways. Goading a Supreme Dispelling is an Action Economy win, even if it means eating a Quickened nasty spell, too.

The downside is V would likely be killed as a result. But such would be a character arc that would make much sense for V.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Without magic Roy is basically never getting through Xykon's DR. No magic strength boost, no magic sword damage, no green fire especially damaging to the undead. Just standard greatsword damage with his natural STR bonus.

[hungrycrow]

Without magic Roy is basically never getting through Xykon's DR. No magic strength boost, no magic sword damage, no green fire especially damaging to the undead. Just standard greatsword damage with his natural STR bonus.

Don't really remember how this works, but lich DR is supernatural, so it might also get suppressed by an AMF?

Nevertheless, it's a bad plan if they can't stop Xykon from just walking away. This worked for the ABD because she was a dragon and could easily stop an unmagical V from moving.

[Goblin_Priest]

Mage's Disjunction is not centered on the self, though. And that would be a pretty high priority pick if your main bad guy(s) is (are) spellcaster(s).

[Gurgeh]

Hm. That might be viable, but if Big X.'s AC is indeed in the low 40s, it's quite certainly not an auto-hit option (and, in fact, depending on the other modifiers it can just be a waste of slots).

A big chunk of this won't affect Disintegrate, since it only needs a ranged touch attack and doesn't care about his natural armour and Epic Mage Armour. Xykon's touch AC is probably somewhere in the high teens or low twenties. The bigger issue is that Xykon only needs to pass a relatively easy (for an epic character, anyway) fort save to reduce the damage to a paltry 5d6.

[Peelee]

Hey, I'm going to make my first prediction:

Fiends will intervene before the trap's sprung, taking Vaarsuvius out of the running, and so the Order will not trigger the ambush. They want the conflict to last as long as possible, after all.

I'll take that bet.

[Jaecp]

Haley calling the trap the "cherry on top" means I might have been actually on to something with my "Serini will use a combination of all of the Gate defenses" theory.

The teleport trap is both deception/illusion (Girard) and arcane magic (Dorukan).

The unknown voices could be natural creatures (Lirian).

The monsters are might (Kraagor).

Still not sure how a paladin's honor (and an entire legion of ghost-martyrs) would play in to it, though.

She seems to have dedicated her life to it so there is much honor there on its own.

[One Skunk Todd]

Ooh splitting their party, while close to the wizard. That might indeed be worth the risk of exposing the real dungeon

And hopefully somewhat drained too, if this monster tunnel has restocked or was never hit in the first place.

[One Skunk Todd]

And hopefully somewhat drained too, if this monster tunnel has restocked or was never hit in the first place.

And they'll have perfect situational awareness if they station somebody in the Dead End to watch down the monster tunnel until TE comes out. They'll know party order and have at least a quick take on health status.

And I can't help but notice Xykon led the way in, in 1039, and out in 1040.

And the OotS gets a hell of a surprise round(if that's a thing in 3.5.) Xykon walking along, TE trailing behind, the portal drops and suddenly 7 enemies within melee range for at least 3 rounds, and no support. I don't know if Haley can kill the trap altogether or only for another 20 secods.

[Ironsmith]

She seems to have dedicated her life to it so there is much honor there on its own.

And then there's the invisible dudes. If they're guardians of the gate, they might end up borrowing some of Soon's methods.

[Algeh]

Headcanon: Hel accepts desecrated holy symbols from her rival deities as valid. For example, Thor's symbol with "Thor sucks" scratched on the back.

GW

It's probably something like that judging by how the Stoners and those priests of Thor that got turned undead all kept their original symbols and functioned just fine with them.

That would make thematic sense and fit well with NotDurkon's prayer for new spells.

In 2E there was a 1st level spell (later demoted to an orison {clerical cantrip} when those rules came out) called Create Holy Symbol. It doesn't make a fancy one, but you have one. I presume that spell got converted at some point in the 18 kajillion splats 3.X had.

That spell isn't listed in the 2e PHB I have handy (maybe it's from a later supplement - I don't have most of the supplemental 2e books since I mostly borrowed them from friends and the library as needed at the time), but that book does mention in the equipment section that holy symbols are the kind of thing you have to get from a temple, they're specially prepared by the cleric's order, and that they probably won't give them out to just anyone who asks even though a price is listed in the equipment table. I don't have any 3rd edition books so I was just going by the list and brief description in the SRD, which doesn't mention any similar constraints, but it would make sense for something similar to be true.

[Lord Torath]

In 2E there was a 1st level spell (later demoted to an orison {clerical cantrip} when those rules came out) called Create Holy Symbol. It doesn't make a fancy one, but you have one. I presume that spell got converted at some point in the 18 kajillion splats 3.X had.

That spell isn't listed in the 2e PHB I have handy (maybe it's from a later supplement - I don't have most of the supplemental 2e books since I mostly borrowed them from friends and the library as needed at the time), but that book does mention in the equipment section that holy symbols are the kind of thing you have to get from a temple, they're specially prepared by the cleric's order, and that they probably won't give them out to just anyone who asks even though a price is listed in the equipment table. I don't have any 3rd edition books so I was just going by the list and brief description in the SRD, which doesn't mention any similar constraints, but it would make sense for something similar to be true.

It's a second-level spell, actually, and it appeared in The Tome of Magic. It had no material requirements, so it could be cast if you'd lost your holy symbol.

[Snails]

Don't really remember how this works, but lich DR is supernatural, so it might also get suppressed by an AMF?

Nevertheless, it's a bad plan if they can't stop Xykon from just walking away. This worked for the ABD because she was a dragon and could easily stop an unmagical V from moving.

You are correct about the DR being Supernatural and nullified by the AMF.

If Roy is standing next to Xykon and he tries to leave, Roy can Trip him.

[Snails]

A big chunk of this won't affect Disintegrate, since it only needs a ranged touch attack and doesn't care about his natural armour and Epic Mage Armour. Xykon's touch AC is probably somewhere in the high teens or low twenties. The bigger issue is that Xykon only needs to pass a relatively easy (for an epic character, anyway) fort save to reduce the damage to a paltry 5d6.

V could miss with the Ray, but Xykon's Fort save is not very good.

<Sorcerer 20> + <Con mode> + <Epic Save bonus for 27th level> = 6 + 0 + 3 = +9

Of course, X could have a Ring of Resistance to improve that, but even a +5 ring brings him to Fort +14. V is likely to have a Disintegrate DC 23 or 24.

[Ghosty]

A big chunk of this won't affect Disintegrate, since it only needs a ranged touch attack and doesn't care about his natural armour and Epic Mage Armour. Xykon's touch AC is probably somewhere in the high teens or low twenties. The bigger issue is that Xykon only needs to pass a relatively easy (for an epic character, anyway) fort save to reduce the damage to a paltry 5d6.

I couldn't tell if the force armor from Epic Mage Armor applied to touch attacks or not. It explicitly says it protects against touch attacks made by incorporeal creatures like Shadows. I guess a Disintegrate ray is treated differently than those.

If so, that's great, and knocks X's AC against touch attacks down to something like 15, as the only thing to worry about would be the Ring of Protection. (Or whatever caused the 'deflect!' effect when Darth V tried to Disintegrate him). Much easier for V and their ~+8BAB to hit.

[ratfox]

I have to say, this ambush idea doesn't seem like the big climatic final battle. Too many loose ends, even for a really indulgent post-credit scene. I'm sure Elan would agree.

[Jasdoif]

I couldn't tell if the force armor from Epic Mage Armor applied to touch attacks or not.

Epic magic armor, like its nonepic counterpart, provides an armor bonus to AC; and armor bonuses don't apply to touch AC.

It explicitly says it protects against touch attacks made by incorporeal creatures like Shadows.

In what is easily the least intuitive wording choice in the core books, an incorporeal touch attack is not a touch attack.

Armor bonuses and shield bonuses both very specifically say they do not apply against touch attacks, except for force effects, which apply against incorporeal touch attacks. This implies that even force effects that grant an armor or shield bonus do not apply against regular touch attacks. Is that so? If so, why? If a mage armor spell can make it harder for a spectre to lay a hand on you, why wouldn’t it also make it harder for a hobgoblin to lay a hand on you?

A spectre doesn’t “lay a hand on you”—it slams you, and the blow goes right through your armor (and through your shield if you have one). An incorporeal touch attack is so named only to remind you that (most) armor and shields do not apply. A touch attack and an incorporeal touch attack are not the same thing. If they were, they wouldn’t have different names.

An armor or shield bonus from a force effect applies against an incorporeal touch attack because the attack can’t pass through the force armor or shield as it can through an object. An armor or shield bonus doesn’t stop a regular touch effect, because touching it is the same as touching you (just as it is for any other kind of shield or armor you personally use).

Apparently the idea that "incorporeal" would be seen as a modifier on "touch attack" never came up during proofing or editing....

[Potatopeelerkin]

Disabling the trap seems like a bad idea to me. Team Evil hasn't found the trap so far and has no rogue on their team, so it'd probably hold them back for a lot longer if the Order doesn't reveal it- time they could use to gather intel or reinforcements. An army of spell-slinging dwarves would make a big difference. The hide-inside-the-trap ambush can be used later if necessary.

If all the tunnels have traps like this that lead to the gate, it seems like a confusing decision. Ideally you'd only put the trap in one gate, so potential intruders would have to both guess the right tunnel AND identify the trap to get to the gate.

[Mariele]

Wowee zowee, two strips so close together. I want to look at Team Evil since this is so tense, but it looks like we're going to be cutting to the paladins. Guess I'm just going to read the entire thread while I eagerly await the next page! I absolutely know we're not at the big fight scene for the end of this book, and that something is going to flub this all up, but I'm still excited to see how this all plays out. :)

Haley calling the trap the "cherry on top" means I might have been actually on to something with my "Serini will use a combination of all of the Gate defenses" theory.

The teleport trap is both deception/illusion (Girard) and arcane magic (Dorukan).

The unknown voices could be natural creatures (Lirian).

The monsters are might (Kraagor).

Still not sure how a paladin's honor (and an entire legion of ghost-martyrs) would play in to it, though.

Y'know, this hadn't occurred to me before, but it makes sense. I like this take!

I dunno, i have an even more weird little nitpick in that the version of Elan I have in my head would have used a contraction in the last bubble

Oh man, I cannot believe someone else had the exact same nitpick as me. It was such a small one I forgot about it until you mentioned it haha.

Now, what I'd find nice would be Xykon turning on Redcloak and the Order saving him from the Bony Bastard, which could serve as a good starting point for renewed discussions.

I don't know how this would come about exactly, but I like it!

That's a very interesting question/idea. I checked the SRD for an answer and came up mostly empty. I did find a useful bit of information, however:

That would mean all Redcloak needs to get an angry Xykon off his back is a cheap dagger. If the phylactery is in the bag, Xykon is in the phylactery and the bag ruptures, Xykon should get lost forever.

Boy, that's sure handy! I dunno if that's something Rich would adhere to, but it's a fun idea.

Wanted to add, we don't know if RC added all those protection spells to the phylactery, do we? We just saw him adding them to the fake one. It could be easier for him to destroy than we're thinking.

I realize I'm one strip late, but I just want to pat myself on the back for having guessed exactly what was going to happen back on strip #1221!

That was awfully good!

Oof. You really know how to hurt a guy ..

*Looks up from Accounting homework*

Yay, new comic for my birthday! I hope the paladins get help soon!

Hope you had a good birthday!

[bunsen_h]

I dunno, i have an even more weird little nitpick in that the version of Elan I have in my head would have used a contraction in the last bubble

I think that the intention was emphasis: "They are all noble and selfless like that."

[Dion]

I think that the intention was emphasis: "They are all noble and selfless like that."

I’m imagining at least one more trap exactly like the one the party just went through.

And I’m imagining Lien and O’Chul on the other side of that trap, perhaps 20 feet away, watching and listening to everything the party says, but unable to interact with them.

[hamishspence]

In 2E there was a 1st level spell (later demoted to an orison {clerical cantrip} when those rules came out) called Create Holy Symbol. It doesn't make a fancy one, but you have one. I presume that spell got converted at some point in the 18 kajillion splats 3.X had.

It's a second-level spell, actually, and it appeared in The Tome of Magic. It had no material requirements, so it could be cast if you'd lost your holy symbol.

3.5e's nearest equivalent is the Summon Holy Symbol spell in Complete Champion. 0th level for clerics, 1st level for Paladins (since they don't get 0th level spells. Only lasts 1 round per caster level though.

[Peelee]

I think it highly unlikely that Redcloak would display Xykon's phylactery openly. Xykon isn't a total idiot, and the phylactery has some distinctive markings.

If only Redcloak had some means of negating those markings. Illusion spells would also work, for what its worth. Or, it could be a tiny item with miniscule markings which necessitate that it be examined closely, which Xykon might well do with a fake one Redcloak gave him but likely will not do with one Redcloak is wearing around his neck.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not sure if the AMF would work though; Xykon could just use the Withdraw action -

Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.

Moreover, an AMF only extends to like 10 feet out. So more than enough for Xykon to be able to exit the range.

Honestly, I have strong doubts that Xykon's going to be taken out like that. It just... I dunno, doesn't feel like Rich's style I guess?

Didn't know artifacts actually do work inside an AMF, though. Huh. So do epic spells if they make the caster level check, unfortunately, and Xykon likely has a much higher CL than V.

Maybe Durkon's going to jump Xykon with his hammer, I dunno. Even if his other items don't work. he might actually do more damage than Roy.

[ebarde]

But does he have any reason to use the actual symbol? Ig there's something to be said about hiding it in plain sight, and having it on hand if things get heated.

[locksmith of lo]

what bothers me so far is that they have not checked what is on the other side of the space that they are in. i am assuming that behind them is another trap portal, but where does that go?

[danielxcutter]

what bothers me so far is that they have not checked what is on the other side of the space that they are in. i am assuming that behind them is another trap portal, but where does that go?

What do you mean other side? If you mean looking through the scrying screen, he already saw that it leads to the dead end cut off from the fake tunnel.

[locksmith of lo]

What do you mean other side? If you mean looking through the scrying screen, he already saw that it leads to the dead end cut off from the fake tunnel.

i mean, are they just in a cul-de-sac? with only one portal trap? that is to say they walked through the only portal and they ended up in a just a room with nothing in it except the portal they walked through?