The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Weren't these individuals all killed in The Winter Soldier?

With the possible exception of the lady Natasha was impersonating, yes. Also one of those was a high-ranking agent of Hydra, which might have been a factor with the plan to nuke New York.

[Cikomyr2]

With the possible exception of the lady Natasha was impersonating, yes. Also one of those was a high-ranking agent of Hydra, which might have been a factor with the plan to nuke New York.

In all fairness, had the Council not launched a Nuke, the Avengers would have lost this fight.

A nuke was the proper response. A nuke *at* New York was imbecile. The council should have coordinated their airstrike with the Avengers themselves to strike at the source of the invading army.

But then again, "Nobody trust the Avengers" was the theme of the first movie. I suspect the Council was rather enthusiast in wiping out Thor, Hulk along with Loki.

Edit: Oops, never mind. My girlfriend just reminded me that Black Widow could have closed the portal and ensured an Avengers victory.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Okay I have to say I’m disappointed that they

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Killed off Batroc. Not surprised, given how they added him in like they did right before the grand finale, but disappointed. He was a sufficiently low level threat I’d have liked to see him slip away to continue being a reoccurring villain.

Also, I was kind of hoping that they’d surprise us with Yori - have a touching scene where Bucky admits to killing his son and Yori admits to already knowing about that - but that’s less of a long term thing, I just thought it’d be nice for Bucky to have some non-superhero friends. And maybe some understanding from the average person that he was, y’know, brainwashed at the time.

[Palanan]

Well, that was…uneven, especially up front, but ended on some very good notes.

Spoiler: You Call That A Plan?

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I’m still not sure how Karli’s plan was supposed to work. Her people had infiltrated GRC security, they had control of the building, and then they wanted to…move everyone in three separate vehicles to somewhere else? Using a helicopter, when they know their principal opponent does his best work in the air?

If nothing else, it shows how badly out of her depth Karli was. Ideology is no substitute for sound strategy.

Spoiler: And Just Like That, We’re Supposed to Be Cool?

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So, Walker shows up with a homemade shield, gets beaten on, and suddenly he’s part of the team? And no one even says anything?

And then they go chasing down dark tunnels with a guy who completely lost it the last time he was in a fight?

Spoiler: It Was Agatha All Along

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I’ll need to watch this again, but I lost track of everyone Sharon was betraying and why.

As for the little Mexican standoff with Karli and Batroc…gawd. Batroc is too clever and experienced to try that kind of petty blackmail…and Sharon, as the uber-criminal Power Broker, should at least be smart and paranoid enough to wear a vest or something.

As it stands, it was a pathetic end for Batroc, who I’d been hoping would be a recurring villain in future seasons and elsewhere in the Disney+ MCU. Extremely unsatisfying.

And do I read it correctly that Sam and Bucky still have no idea she’s the Power Broker? Leaving her free to enrich herself and supply a new generation of supervillains?

Spoiler: Hero Speech

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That…felt overly preachy, even for a hero speech, and the scene as a whole didn’t ring true.

It’s great that Sam is the moral voice for people who struggle to survive, and it’s great that the role of Captain America is expanding from freedom fighter abroad to people’s champion at home.

But the reaction of senators to homegrown moral speeches is not to be silent and downcast and allow themselves to be scolded. Senators bluster, posture and fight their corner—in a verbal duel on camera most of all. People accustomed to wielding power on that level don’t let themselves be preached to.

More than that, they wouldn’t be on the GRC if they weren’t bedrock-certain of what they were doing, and they wouldn’t hesitate to push back hard on Sam’s moralizing. Especially since he was espousing the position of the very people who had just tried to kidnap them.

There needed to be a few more steps before the GRC caved and reversed itself.

Spoiler: Don’t Frack With Sokovian Butlers

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At last, a reminder that Zemo is genuinely evil.

But remind me what his motivation is for killing the Flag-Smashers? Does he not want company in the Raft?

Spoiler: Museum Display

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Best scene in the whole episode. Not gonna lie, got misty on that one.

That’s how you leverage the power of Captain America.

[Starbuck_II]

Spoiler: And Just Like That, We’re Supposed to Be Cool?

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So, Walker shows up with a homemade shield, gets beaten on, and suddenly he’s part of the team? And no one even says anything?

And then they go chasing down dark tunnels with a guy who completely lost it the last time he was in a fight?

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They only hated Walker because he had Cap's shield and outfit.

Now that they are the ones with the shield, why would they hold a grudge, they won.
Bullies are often like that (really, Falco and Bucky were very bully-like during the series to Walker. Walker was doing his best to represent Cap. He only had heresay how Cap should act/be from media)

If you "stay in your place" and under them, they are often generous and forgiving. Just don't get uppity.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

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Now that they are the ones with the shield, why would they hold a grudge, they won.

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Point being, Walker murdered an unarmed prisoner who was trying to surrender. That’s not hero material, and that’s not good ally material. I feel like they glossed over that completely.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler: It Was Agatha All Along

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I’ll need to watch this again, but I lost track of everyone Sharon was betraying and why.

As for the little Mexican standoff with Karli and Batroc…gawd. Batroc is too clever and experienced to try that kind of petty blackmail…and Sharon, as the uber-criminal Power Broker, should at least be smart and paranoid enough to wear a vest or something.

As it stands, it was a pathetic end for Batroc, who I’d been hoping would be a recurring villain in future seasons and elsewhere in the Disney+ MCU. Extremely unsatisfying.

And do I read it correctly that Sam and Bucky still have no idea she’s the Power Broker? Leaving her free to enrich herself and supply a new generation of supervillains?

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Going to second all of this. I admit we didn’t really get to track Sharon for the 7 1/2 years since we last saw her, but her character arc through this series doesn’t really feel natural.

Spoiler: Don’t Frack With Sokovian Butlers

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At last, a reminder that Zemo is genuinely evil.

But remind me what his motivation is for killing the Flag-Smashers? Does he not want company in the Raft?

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Aren’t there still super soldiers among them that Zemo wants dead just on principle?

[Starbuck_II]

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Point being, Walker murdered an unarmed prisoner who was trying to surrender. That’s not hero material, and that’s not good ally material. I feel like they glossed over that completely.

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Well, one you are still a terrorist till you surrender.
The man never surrendered. So I feel his kill is legally murky.
And remember, these unarmed guys can break your throat with a punch. They are literal sledgehammers in human form. They killed Battlestar with a punch. And he had battle armor. Killed by trauma alone from jostling into the wall.

Normal hand cuffs won't hold them.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga

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I admit we didn’t really get to track Sharon for the 7 1/2 years since we last saw her, but her character arc through this series doesn’t really feel natural.

Spoiler: Curse Your Sudden and Inevitable Betrayal!

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Agreed completely. At the end of Winter Soldier, she dealt with the betrayal and destruction of S.H.I.E.L.D. by immediately joining the CIA. She doesn’t seem like someone who would go full crimelord just because she was disavowed by her new agency. That's just an occupational hazard.

I mean, Bobbi and Hunter were burned in S.H.I.E.L.D. and would have kept on fighting the good fight in Marvel’s Most Wanted, if the actors themselves hadn’t been burned by executive issues. For that matter, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. went all fugitive for entire seasons, but they never wavered in their commitment.

So very much agreed, Sharon’s turn to the Dark Side seems very contrived, just to give them another “Agatha all along” twist moment.

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga

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Aren’t there still super soldiers among them that Zemo wants dead just on principle?

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Good point, yes. Those were all super-soldiers, so Zemo would have reason enough to target them.

On a related note, doesn’t it seem strange that Zemo gets cable TV in the Raft? Wanda got a muzzle and a straitjacket, and all she did was throw a few cars around.

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

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Well, one you are still a terrorist till you surrender.
The man never surrendered.

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He was unarmed, on his back, with his hands up, shouting “It wasn’t me!” Walker had just knocked him down, and he had stopped fighting and was offering no resistance. Unarmed on the ground with his hands raised.

That’s a surrender to any reasonable person. Walker had no reason to kill him but pure rage and vengeance. That’s not just poor judgement, it’s a complete lack of self-control right when you need it most.

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

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And remember, these unarmed guys can break your throat with a punch….

Normal hand cuffs won't hold them.

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At this point Walker is just the same, so sauce for the goose. He had the guy cornered, he had the guy on his back with nowhere to run. All he had to do was wait a couple minutes, but he let his rage consume him and dictate his actions.

Again, not hero material and not ally material.

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: Episode 6

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I was glad to see Walker come out as a hero in the end, choosing to help people rather then get his personal revenge. Really says a lot about him i think, looking forward to seeing what he as the USAgent could do in the future.

[Psyren]

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They only hated Walker because he had Cap's shield and outfit.

Now that they are the ones with the shield, why would they hold a grudge, they won.
Bullies are often like that (really, Falco and Bucky were very bully-like during the series to Walker. Walker was doing his best to represent Cap. He only had heresay how Cap should act/be from media)

If you "stay in your place" and under them, they are often generous and forgiving. Just don't get uppity.

It's difficult to put into words how ridiculous I find this take.

Spoiler: Don’t Frack With Sokovian Butlers

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At last, a reminder that Zemo is genuinely evil.

But remind me what his motivation is for killing the Flag-Smashers? Does he not want company in the Raft?

Good time to remember that Zemo

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wants every super soldier dead, and that only Bucky escaped that hatred. I expect him to cross paths with Walker in the future.

Spoiler: Hero Speech

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That…felt overly preachy, even for a hero speech, and the scene as a whole didn’t ring true.

It’s great that Sam is the moral voice for people who struggle to survive, and it’s great that the role of Captain America is expanding from freedom fighter abroad to people’s champion at home.

But the reaction of senators to homegrown moral speeches is not to be silent and downcast and allow themselves to be scolded. Senators bluster, posture and fight their corner—in a verbal duel on camera most of all. People accustomed to wielding power on that level don’t let themselves be preached to.

More than that, they wouldn’t be on the GRC if they weren’t bedrock-certain of what they were doing, and they wouldn’t hesitate to push back hard on Sam’s moralizing. Especially since he was espousing the position of the very people who had just tried to kidnap them.

There needed to be a few more steps before the GRC caved and reversed itself.

Disagree utterly, the speech was fantastic - and the person delivering it made it even stronger.

[BRC]

Spoiler: Final Episode Thoughts

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Left a bad taste in my mouth for a couple reasons.


1) Zemo. We still kind of have the thing where Zemo escaped just to get himself recaptured. Like, his butler blew up the flag smashers, but it was kind of hard to draw any sort of narrative line between Zemo's escape and that bombing.

I feel like that could have happened exactly as it was without Zemo escaping and it would have gone basically the same way.


2) Carter is the Power Broker. Okay, nice twist, but they don't do anything with it, and if that's the case, the events in Madripor don't make any sense?
Like, I get that she didn't want to reveal that she was the Power Broker, but I feel like she could have helped them in some way that didn't involve putting herself at risk and getting her pet scientist killed. Even if she didn't expect them to kill him, she went toe-to-toe with some bounty hunters.

She could have just, like, gotten the info for them, handed them an envelope, and been like "I've worked my contacts here in Madripor, this is what I found, get out of town now please".

3) The Big Speech. They kind of ran up against "This is a very complex issue and solving complex issues is Hard". It was a good speech, but it felt a little too cut and dry, and it's not clear what will happen except...the GRC isn't going to do The Bad Thing?

4) No real resolution to Walker's plotline, he just shows up and is helpful and everything is cool now?

5) Isaiah Bradley... I have complex feelings about this, and I'm probably not the one to talk about this plotline, BUT

a) First of all, I feel like Sam should have gotten his permission before having them erect a statue of him in the museum and
b) They end the scene with "And now they'll never forget what you did for this country", which I feel misses the point of Isiah Bradley's story. Yes, he served his country, but more importantly, his country did HIM and the other test subjects a DISSERVICE. He was unjustly experimented on without his consent, and imprisoned until a nurse helped him fake his death and escape, at which point he spent his life in hiding.

Like, yes, he's a hero and deserves to be recognized as such, but encapsulating his plotline as "What he did for this country" turns a story of gross injustice into one of selfless sacrifice.
had the line been "They'll never forget your story" or something, that would be better.

Like, Isiah Bradley's whole thing the entire show has been that he's angry, and justifiably so. He's FURIOUS at what the government did to him, and he should be. This ending kind of makes it feel like he was mad that he didn't get a shiny medal, not that they stole his life from him.

Like, I don't oppose the exhibit thing so much as ending on the line about "What you did for your country". Had they just changed that line a bit, I think it would have been fine.

[Wraith]

Spoiler: Curse Your Sudden and Inevitable Betrayal!

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Agreed completely. At the end of Winter Soldier, she dealt with the betrayal and destruction of S.H.I.E.L.D. by immediately joining the CIA. She doesn’t seem like someone who would go full crimelord just because she was disavowed by her new agency. That's just an occupational hazard.

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Assuming that it really *is* Agent Carter, of course. Life Model Decoys (that is, robots who perfectly mimic the person they resemble) were mentioned in Iron Man 2, Carter was wearing an almost perfect replica-disguise when she met Bucky in episode 6, and we know that there are Skrulls living on Earth after Captain Marvel.

In fact, going by the comics time-line, Civil War was followed by Secret War, which was the big Skrull invasion that brought a bunch of supposedly-dead people back to life and explained away weird behaviour by others. Could well be next in the upcoming movies?

Spoiler: Episode 6

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I was glad to see Walker come out as a hero in the end, choosing to help people rather then get his personal revenge. Really says a lot about him i think, looking forward to seeing what he as the USAgent could do in the future.

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I agree. Given how many people Bucky has murdered and been forgiven for after years of therapy and court-mandated control, Walker killing one guy and then almost immediately redeeming himself by letting Karli get away and instead saving the GRC members seems a lot more reasonable. It's not like anyone else knows about his relationship with Val, so he's solidly under "made a mistake and now is paying for it" territory.

Overall...

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I very much enjoyed the show, but the last episode was a bit of a let-down.

Firstly, the pacing was weird. As mentioned above, Sam's speech to the Senators felt like a bit cliche and might as well have been read off a cue card for how carefully and deliberately it challenged every single in-universe and Real Life political issue even remotely associated with the show. Not that those things don't need to be said, but it was pretty ham-fisted compared to the quality that we're used to from Marvel.

That, and I really feel like we lost the pace between episode 5 and 6. As in, Episode 5 ended with all the heroes splitting up and taking a week (or whatever) to rest and practice and stuff - it lost a lot of the sense of urgency that could have been there if they skipped a lot of that and went straight to the GRC fight. In particular, wrapping up Zemo's arc and shipping him off to prison feels like something that should have happened in the last episode, even if all that happened was the scene at the memorial. It 'closed' too early and made me think "Oh, well I guess we're done with him and that's that" when it would have been more suspenseful for him to still be at large or otherwise mysterious until the end. Closing that storyline off 'early' just killed some suspense and intrigue when it could have been Zemo who killed the Flag Smashers and THEN let Bucky find him at the memorial - giving himself up now that his mission was completed and not before.
On reflection, that would have been a nice call-back to Civil War - Zemo escapes capture and sees out the very end of his mission (killing the Flagsmashers) before allowing himself to be caught afterwards. Except this time is by Bucky, rather than Black Panther.

Possibly a lot of this was down to COVID and they have to cut or change scenes to make account for isolating, so that can't be helped, but there are obvious lulls in the episode where one can pin-point the affected parts and note them as being lower quality.

The last complaint that I have is that I think they went too far with Karli. She worked great as a sympathetic villain whose motives made sense and her actions were sorta-kinda justifiable.... Until she started telling us that the people she murdered were 'worthless', as well as volunteering her followers to die as martyrs when clearly that wasn't part of the bargain that they started out under. She lost a lot of nuance in the last episode and went from misguided to out-right one-dimensional and trigger-happy. I almost wish they had let Sam talk her down to prove that she wasn't a maniac that had completely lost her way, even if she died in the explosion later at the hands of a TRUE and evil fanatic like Zemo.

A positive note though; Zemo was easily the highlight of the story and I want more from him later. Anthony Mackie did great - the last thing I saw him in was Altered Carbon and he really struggled in a leading role to show any kind of subtlety, so I'm glad that he's found such a good fit in Sam Wilson. Sebastian Stan is going to be a huge star in his own right, just mark my words, and I loved his chemistry with Mackie. And Wyatt Russel is the son of Kurt Russel, one of my favourite actors who played Ego the Living Planet in GotG2, and I can't believe it's taken me this long to see the resemblance because it's pretty obvious when you see him out of costume

Good show, looking forward to season 02, hopefully they keep the villains more subtle though.

[BRC]

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I very much enjoyed the show, but the last episode was a bit of a let-down.

Firstly, the pacing was weird. As mentioned above, Sam's speech to the Senators felt like a bit cliche and might as well have been read off a cue card for how carefully and deliberately it challenged every single in-universe and Real Life political issue even remotely associated with the show. Not that those things don't need to be said, but it was pretty ham-fisted compared to the quality that we're used to from Marvel.

That, and I really feel like we lost the pace between episode 5 and 6. As in, Episode 5 ended with all the heroes splitting up and taking a week (or whatever) to rest and practice and stuff - it lost a lot of the sense of urgency that could have been there is they skipped a lot of that and went straight to the GRC fight. In particular, wrapping up Zemo's arc and shipping him off to prison feels like something that should have happened in the last episode, even if all that happened was the scene at the memorial. It 'closed' too early and made me think "Oh, well I guess we're done with him and that's that" when it would have been more suspenseful for him to still be at large or otherwise mysterious until the end. Closing that storyline off 'early' just killed some suspense and intrigue when it could have been Zemo who killed the Flag Smashers and THEN let Bucky find him at the memorial - giving himself up now that his mission was completed and not before.

Possibly a lot of this was down to COVID and they have to cut or change scenes to make account for isolating, so that can't be helped, but there are obvious lulls in the episode where one can pin-point the affected parts and note them as being lower quality.

The last complaint that I have is that I think they went too far with Karli. She worked great as a sympathetic villain whose motives made sense and her actions were sorta-kinda justifiable.... Until she started telling us that the people she murdered were 'worthless', as well as volunteering her followers to die as martyrs when clearly that wasn't part of the bargain that they started out under. She lost a lot of nuance in the last episode and went from misguided to out-right one-dimensional and trigger-happy. I almost wish they had let Sam talk her down to prove that she wasn't a maniac that had completely lost her way, even if she died in the explosion later at the hands of a TRUE and evil fanatic like Zemo.

A positive note though; Zemo was easily the highlight of the story and I want more from him later. Anthony Mackie did great - the last thing I saw him in was Altered Carbon and he really struggled in a leading role to show any kind of subtlety, so I'm glad that he's found such a good fit in Sam Wilson. Sebastian Stan is going to be a huge star in his own right, just mark my words, and I loved his chemistry with Mackie. And Wyatt Russel is the son of Kurt Russel, one of my favourite actors who played Ego the Living Planet in GotG2, and I can't believe it's taken me this long to see the resemblance because it's pretty obvious when you see him out of costume

Good show, looking forward to season 02, hopefully they keep the villains more subtle though.

Spoiler: Karli

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I remember her line about "People who don't matter" differently.

She said "I don't want to kill people who don't matter", meaning she's down to murder, but not indiscriminately. She's down to kill the GRC people if it comes to that, but she didn't want to kill Lamar.

Walker hears her as saying "Lamar doesn't Matter", when she was more saying "Lamar didn't deserve to die, and I'm sorry he did".


Regardless, I agree. I think she stayed in Reasonable Territory longer than most similar villains, she had a clear plan that wasn't just "Violence will make them respect us", and points for her reacting to a very real and immediate threat to real people (The GRC Vote), rather than just trying to bomb the GRC offices or whatever. But, at the end she just kind of turned into another trigger-happy fanatic, because that's the inevitable fate for these sorts of characters.

I Must say, this show went farther than most stories I've seen when it came to making the villains complex. But they ran into the reason why most people DON'T make their villains super complex. It's hard to have a satisfying conclusion when your villains are kind of right.

Because, like, The Flag Smashers were right in that the GRC was about to do something horrible. The GRC was right in that the situation was very complex and that the people who returned ALSO needed to be taken care of.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BRC

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Okay, nice twist, but they don't do anything with it….

Spoiler: Sharon

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The one thing they’ve done with it is to give her a full pardon and access to high-level secret technology. They’re setting up not only the next season of Falcon Cap & Winter Soldier, but potential conflicts in the Wakanda series, Don Cheadle’s series and anything else in the Disney+ MCU.

Maybe not satisfying in the context of this series, but it does raise a lot of options for future storylines.

Originally Posted by Wraith

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Given how many people Bucky has murdered and been forgiven for after years of therapy and court-mandated control….

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Well, the difference there is that Bucky was acting under severe mind control, whereas Walker was entirely himself.

And Bucky has had those years of therapy and observation, whereas Walker wasn’t even acting legally. He was formally and pubicly stripped of all authority to act as Captain America…and then he just shows up with a homemade shield and punches a couple of people.

Oh, and after illegally taking a black-market serum most likely developed via gross human rights abuses.

So, I don’t see Walker getting a pass that way.

Originally Posted by Wraith

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Firstly, the pacing was weird. As mentioned above, Sam's speech to the Senators felt like a bit cliche and might as well have been read off a cue card for how carefully and deliberately it challenged every single in-universe and Real Life political issue even remotely associated with the show. Not that those things don't need to be said, but it was pretty ham-fisted compared to the quality that we're used to from Marvel.

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Agreed completely. It felt like a wish-list of what someone wanted to say to people in power—and to have them magically cowed by the Power of Rightness, rather than behaving like real people who would push back hard in every way possible.

Originally Posted by Wraith

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The last complaint that I have is that I think they went too far with Karli. She worked great as a sympathetic villain whose motives made sense and her actions were sorta-kinda justifiable.... Until she started telling us that the people she murdered were 'worthless', as well as volunteering her followers to die as martyrs when clearly that wasn't part of the bargain that they started out under. She lost a lot of nuance in the last episode and went from misguided to out-right one-dimensional and trigger-happy. I almost wish they had let Sam talk her down to prove that she wasn't a maniac that had completely lost her way, even if she died in the explosion later at the hands of a TRUE and evil fanatic like Zemo.

Spoiler: Karli

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Thoroughly agreed on every point.

Part of me hopes she survived, though almost certainly she didn't. Even when she really should have taken a few minutes to put on a bulletproof vest...but she wanted to be a martyr. I guess we'll see if that provides the stimulus to the movement she was hoping it would.

[ecarden]

Generally stuck the landing, or at least didn't implode *COUGH* Wandavision.

Some comments.

Spoiler: Karli

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Okay, I tend to agree that she was badly served here. Not so much the slide towards violence, but it almost feels like they combined two characters when they realized how little time the Flagsmashers were going to have on screen?

Because the 'everything was better during the blip' side of the Flagsmashers and the 'we spent the blip working for the Power Broker in Madripor' side of the Flagsmashers seem like they ought to be led/made up of different people. Maybe I'm wrong, or misunderstanding, but if you were basically a criminal in Madripor...that's not what you're fighting for, right? Maybe they were just criminals for the last six months after being pushed out? That's awful fast to end up in a place to steal serum though...and requires a very fast moveout.

It would also have allowed for a lot more actual disagreement over tactics and the leader of the more peaceful wing's death would actually have been fairly tragic.

Spoiler: Sharon

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Says something interesting about the MCU heroes that I wasn't actually sure melting the Flagsmasher with mercury was a sign she'd gone over to the darkside. And no one else mentions it...so maybe they're just okay with that?

Spoiler: Zemo

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I guess I'm okay with the butler bombing, though I guess operational security is just total **** in the MCU generally as the Flagsmashers were apparently able to infiltrate the GRC super easily.

Spoiler: GRC

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Okay...well, at least the question got asked, what about the 3.5 billion folks who came back. And Sam's answer was...I dunno? I mean, that's fine. There's lots of policy choices where I don't know the right answer. And it's fine to say (especially when the suggested solution is a crime against humanity) 'I don't know the right answer, but this isn't it.'

But wow is it unsatisfying. ETA: And it doesn't work for this scene because the GRC can't take no position on this, they have to have an answer. It shouldn't be forcibly repatriate 20 million people (that number by the way is both way too large to be doable in one go and way too small to be the entire 'issue' given planetary populations) but it does have to answer the, 'who gets the house that I was living in when I was blipped and you've been living in for the last year?' And total unwillingness to actually engage with the fact that there is a legitimate zero-sum conflict of interests here drives me up the wall. Now, governmental and charitable support can and should help the loser in that conflict, but there is going to be one.

And the GRC continues to suffer from MCU-International Law/Organizations basically being...I'm not even sure what? The UN as viewed by a conspiracy theorist?

Spoiler: The Speech

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Okay, this worked emotionally for me, but not when my brain turned back on. At some point I'll do a major fisking of it, but I remain really confused by the sheer number of people in the MCU who tiptoe right up to 'Thanos was right' or 'Thanos did us all a favor' and don't get yelled at for it. Karli's been doing it throughout and Sam does it in this speech.

But the read that makes the most sense to me is that this just got them back to where they were going at the start. Because I'm sorry, if you have the votes, 'do we even need a vote' is a stupid question. Usually, if you've got the votes, you want to take the vote and get on with it, while the other side tries to delay, one way or another. My read is that there was a brief moment after the attack when the Patch Act could pass, and Sam derailed that.

Other than that...I actually almost yelled at my TV at the 'she was willing to die for her cause, so there must be something to it.' Paraphrased, argument in there. Every cause has people who will fight for it and die for it. That tells us nothing about the rightness of the cause. The GRC has had people die for it. Doesn't make them right.

ETA:

Spoiler: Sharon

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This mostly worked for me. Sure, it means she misplayed things in Madripor (putting them in the room with Nagel and having to fight bounty hunters herself), but those are understandable mistakes. She clearly overestimates her ability to manipulate people and situations (as seen with Karli) but is genuinely skilled and able to manipulate situations generally (as seen with Karli a moment later).

I'm fine with amoral power broker Sharon. The agency she devoted her life to was revealed to be secretly controlled by Nazis. She betrayed her next agency to help Captain America, who appears to have totally forgotten she existed. Most every personal relationship was severed and she was on the run. Becoming a criminal makes pretty good sense and she's had enough time to put together a reasonable power base. Presuming she took over from the previous Power Broker.

It's probably going to be some sort of trick, but I'm actually fine with it as written.

Shame the Leaper turned stupid (not that we've seen enough of him to have a good idea of character/intelligence) at the last moment. Blackmail was just a terrible idea. Even if it worked for a moment, that's a story that ends with him getting assassinated. He should have gone immediately for, 'how can I make myself long term useful to this person' if he wasn't just going to kill her.

[Wraith]

Spoiler: Karli

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She said "I don't want to kill people who don't matter", meaning she's down to murder, but not indiscriminately. She's down to kill the GRC people if it comes to that, but she didn't want to kill Lamar.

Walker hears her as saying "Lamar doesn't Matter", when she was more saying "Lamar didn't deserve to die, and I'm sorry he did".

Spoiler

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I think this is one of the lines that really made me wish that Karli was talked down into giving up by Sam in the end, because it's a really great line that (probably deliberately) means both things depending on your perspective. If you're emotional and upset, like Walker, then you will definitely hear her dismissing collateral casualties; if you're listening to it and you're already sceptical of the Flagsmasher movement, it follows on perfectly from her other conversation with Sam where she admitted outright that she would happily kill all of the people that she had again if she had to. She claimed that Sam tricked her into saying that, but.... He really didn't. He asked a fairly straight-forward question and that was the answer that popped into her head.

Like Zemo and Walker said - power just makes you "more" of you. Karli's growing extremism and disregard for killing certainly sounds like what happened to everyone else who took the serum who wasn't already pure of heart, like Steve Rogers.

Spoiler: Bucky & Walker

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Well, the difference there is that Bucky was acting under severe mind control, whereas Walker was entirely himself.

And Bucky has had those years of therapy and observation, whereas Walker wasn’t even acting legally. He was formally and pubicly stripped of all authority to act as Captain America…and then he just shows up with a homemade shield and punches a couple of people.

Oh, and after illegally taking a black-market serum most likely developed via gross human rights abuses.

So, I don’t see Walker getting a pass that way.

Spoiler

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To be fair; "turned up in a home-made uniform and started hitting people with a shield" is also a perfect description of Sam, at this point. He's not been appointed Captain America, he just decided he was going to do it - he wasn't even the Falcon officially, since it's pointed out that he stole that tech and was using it as a mercenary rather than a full-time soldier or even an Avenger post-blip.
Bucky is the same. His version of the serum is just as illegal/immoral, he's using Wakandan tech/vibranium for a weapon, and he's kind of just turned up and started punching people without any authority to do so. Really hard for him to say that Walker isn't allowed to do the same thing and try to earn the same sort of penance that Bucky is attempting to find?

Although it's clear to us - the audience - that Walker is going down the dark path with his aggressive tendencies and his association with Val, as far as Bucky and Sam are concerned he's in more or less the same situation that they have found themselves in, and if anyone knows that people can make mistakes and try to make amends for their actions then Sam and Bucky are it.
Sure; he screwed up, acted like a jerk, took the serum and killed someone in a furious rage - but he also put aside his shame at being discharged and came to help in the fight against a group of would-be mass murderers when he could have just slunk away with his tail between his legs, and he also put aside his anger to let Karli go in order to rescue the truck while single-handedly fighting off 4 Flagsmashers. I can see why they'd be willing to give him another chance, when all is said and done.

It's absolutely going to backfire and blow up in their faces, I have no doubt. But that's because I've read enough comics to know who Val and the U.S.Agent are, Sam and Bucky don't have that luxury.

[hungrycrow]

Overall a nice episode, always great to see heroes being heroes and saving people. But with all the complaints people have, maybe this season could have used one more episode to flesh things out.

Spoiler: Walker

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Walker was a great character. I kind of expected him to just be an angry racist, so it was really nice for him to turn out as such a well-rounded anti-hero/villain. He probably needed a scene at the end talking to Bucky and Sam. Not only about their previous fight and the whole murder thing, but also Sam is Captain America now! How does Walker feel about that?
Also, maybe explain who Val is? And what US Agent is supposed to mean? I feel like them working together is supposed to be ominous, but why? What if I don't know these are villains in the comics?

Spoiler: Sharon

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I'm not exactly sure what her plan was in all of this. She's going to be a villain next season, but so far she doesn't seem too intimidating as a criminal mastermind. Also, what is her motivation to be evil exactly?

Spoiler: GRC

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If you're going to have everything solved by talk-no-jutsu, you should probably write the guy as someone who cares enough to be convinced. Senator Whatshisname was such a generic evil government bureaucrat I don't even remember his name. Maybe give him and the other GRC members as much time brooding over how much they want to save the world as the show gave to Karli.

[Tyrant]

And the GRC continues to suffer from MCU-International Law/Organizations basically being...I'm not even sure what? The UN as viewed by a conspiracy theorist?

The government in the comics is essentially just that. I am pretty sure every governmental agency in the comics has a secret anti-mutant program buried in them somewhere. There's always someone working on a way to make more super soldiers. They constantly harass the Hulk which probably leads to more damage than they would have if they just left him alone. Every few years they try to dictate terms to the super hero community. Mutant Registration Act, Super Hero Registration Act (or whatever it was called from Civil War), the new one (Kamala's Law?) about under age super heroes. The foundation for the government being questionable at the best of times comes straight from the comics.

[Ramza00]

Disagree utterly, the speech was fantastic - and the person delivering it made it even stronger.

Spoiler: Speech

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I like any speech that trashes Locke, a man who says you can take Land away from other people if Locke chooses you are not using it efficiently enough and Locke’s side has the guns.

But it is also empty and nonsense for while it is good speech I doubt it would change anyone’s mind of the people in power (it can change the mind of bystanders), and the people the speech was directed to will still have economics and ideology that will cause them to ignore and forget the speech.

Speeches only work when you have an army behind you, like a large protest and the unsaid thing is we are well behaved, we are numerous, we are organized, we are trying to shame you to do better as a carrot for the alternative is we can choose different actions if we are so organized.

Speeches work when you have demands, and power only recognizes other power, when the other power has actual power plus the other power has demands and the demands say we will stop struggling if you meet them. Yes I am butchering the original Fredrick Douglas quote by reversing the context. But Douglas’s logic was sound 150 years ago.

[Cikomyr2]

Spoiler: Speech

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I like any speech that trashes Locke, a man who says you can take Land away from other people if Locke chooses you are not using it efficiently enough and Locke’s side has the guns.

But it is also empty and nonsense for while it is good speech I doubt it would change anyone’s mind of the people in power (it can change the mind of bystanders), and the people the speech was directed to will still have economics and ideology that will cause them to ignore and forget the speech.

Speeches only work when you have an army behind you, like a large protest and the unsaid thing is we are well behaved, we are numerous, we are organized, we are trying to shame you to do better as a carrot for the alternative is we can choose different actions if we are so organized.

Speeches work when you have demands, and power only recognizes other power, when the other power has actual power plus the other power has demands and the demands say we will stop struggling if you meet them. Yes I am butchering the original Fredrick Douglas quote by reversing the context. But Douglas’s logic was sound 150 years ago.

but it's not about the speech. It's about how Captain America looks at the camera and tell the people watching - the in-universe audience and the out-of-universe audience that things have to change, but we can make things better.

Think about it. Yhea, it was a little awkward, but they stuck the landing better than I otherwise would have expected.


Also, you can't tell me that the last scene with Elijah wasn't *on point*

[Ramza00]

but it's not about the speech. It's about how Captain America looks at the camera and tell the people watching - the in-universe audience and the out-of-universe audience that things have to change, but we can make things better.

Think about it. Yhea, it was a little awkward, but they stuck the landing better than I otherwise would have expected.


Also, you can't tell me that the last scene with Elijah wasn't *on point*

I will argue the thing is a mixture of Show and Tell, and the Ellijah scene worked better for it was more Show. It was a good scene.

-----

(rant below where I am trying to breathe out frustration)

I am just kind of disillusioned by National Superheroes and speaking to the Camera for that never works yet we are taught in a didactically way that only this form of change is acceptable. Meanwhile when real change happens we reincorporate it and re-metabolisze it and say it happened due to A when it really happened due to A+B+C+D+E and so on and without those other letters A never works on its own.

A good speech without everything else is a flawed way to understand history much like Thomas Carlyle and his coined term "Great Man Theory" which is part of a larger 6 series lectures on hero-worship. I disagree with this idea as much as Nietzsche agreed with Carlyle when he created his concept of the Übermensch.

I bring this stuff up for it is related to what the show is talking about, even if I feel the show is messy and is not sure of what it wants to say.

[Clertar]

But this is a superhero story, and it has its conventions. IRL Sam and Bucky would have been killed in episode 1, and if they hadn't been the speech wouldn't have worked for the reasons that you give. But in the superhero genre a fit person can punch their way out of dozens of deadly skirmishes, and they can deliver an inspirational speech that works.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler: Final Episode Thoughts

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a) First of all, I feel like Sam should have gotten his permission before having them erect a statue of him in the museum

Spoiler

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I’m going to second this, I thought the whole point of him going into hiding was to keep from ending up someone’s experiment again? I mean, I doubt they put the guy’s current physical address in that exhibit, but now more people know he exists and can dig up his current whereabouts if they have an Evil Spy Network or Magical Hacking Skills - which a lot of super antagonists have access to. It’s not like people lost interest in the super soldier serum after all.

Spoiler

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Assuming that it really *is* Agent Carter, of course. Life Model Decoys (that is, robots who perfectly mimic the person they resemble) were mentioned in Iron Man 2, Carter was wearing an almost perfect replica-disguise when she met Bucky in episode 6, and we know that there are Skrulls living on Earth after Captain Marvel.

In fact, going by the comics time-line, Civil War was followed by Secret War, which was the big Skrull invasion that brought a bunch of supposedly-dead people back to life and explained away weird behaviour by others. Could well be next in the upcoming movies?

Spoiler

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This is a possibility, but until that gets confirmed on screen I’m not giving the FATWS writers credit for a might-be.

As-is the timeline is very iffy - she somehow went from loyal agent to supervillain in six months, because she was noted as one of the ‘missing’ during Endgame. They could have hand-waved it that veteran secret agent Sharon was just using the chaos to fake being Blipped, but if the US government and the Avengers still think she’s dead they’re hardly going to be handing out pardons to piles of dust when they have much more immediate concerns on their plates. The bitterness doesn’t make sense unless she was faking that too and she started her descent into supervillainy earlier but again, I’m not giving them credit for a might-be, they need to show that sort of thing on screen. There are too many ifs in that chain for me to accept it without evidence.

Spoiler

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On reflection, that would have been a nice call-back to Civil War - Zemo escapes capture and sees out the very end of his mission (killing the Flagsmashers) before allowing himself to be caught afterwards. Except this time is by Bucky, rather than Black Panther.

Going to second this.

but it's not about the speech. It's about how Captain America looks at the camera and tell the people watching - the in-universe audience and the out-of-universe audience that things have to change, but we can make things better.

One thing I saw pointed out in a review elsewhere was that all these GRC people were on camera and conscious of the fact that everyone watching would see if they just told the man who’d helped save their lives ‘no’ and wanted to avoid fallout. That said I think it’s more likely this is going to be revisited later with a Civil War-style retcon along the lines of ‘yes he made a pretty speech but it didn’t really make a difference in the long term’ and it’s just being treated like a moral victory because it’s the end of the series.

[Ramza00]

But this is a superhero story, and it has its conventions. IRL Sam and Bucky would have been killed in episode 1, and if they hadn't been the speech wouldn't have worked for the reasons that you give. But in the superhero genre a fit person can punch their way out of dozens of deadly skirmishes, and they can deliver an inspirational speech that works.

Yeah I see that and I saw it before you responded. I am explaining why certain stories sing to me and spark joy. I am saying with me (other people are different) the superhero story with this specific subject matter will never “satisfy”, it will never produce a long term spark joy, for it is the wrong tool for the job.

A metaphor time. Let’s say Jane Foster has cancer, a story about Dr. Stephen Strange punching the cancer and using magic to talk to the cancer will not satisfy. Jane Foster needs chemotherapy from The Doctor, she does not need Mr. Strange. After the cancer is in remission please have Jane Foster punch the God Butcher.

Satisfaction from Latin and satisfactio and satisfactionis. It means a “A reparation for an injury or loss,” but also 4 other things “A fulfilment of a need or desire,” “ A vindication for a wrong suffered,” lThe source of such gratification,” “The pleasure obtained by such fulfillment. quotations.”

I am saying you can not face racism of the past, or material deprivation of the present something that happens daily with our borders and systems of power via punching things. It is as absurd as dressing as a bat in order to solve crime. 🙃

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Speech

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I like any speech that trashes Locke, a man who says you can take Land away from other people if Locke chooses you are not using it efficiently enough and Locke’s side has the guns.

But it is also empty and nonsense for while it is good speech I doubt it would change anyone’s mind of the people in power (it can change the mind of bystanders), and the people the speech was directed to will still have economics and ideology that will cause them to ignore and forget the speech.

Speeches only work when you have an army behind you, like a large protest and the unsaid thing is we are well behaved, we are numerous, we are organized, we are trying to shame you to do better as a carrot for the alternative is we can choose different actions if we are so organized.

Speeches work when you have demands, and power only recognizes other power, when the other power has actual power plus the other power has demands and the demands say we will stop struggling if you meet them. Yes I am butchering the original Fredrick Douglas quote by reversing the context. But Douglas’s logic was sound 150 years ago.

Thing is, the vote was far from unanimous, there was considerable contention even in the room. And that was before most of the people in said room almost lost their lives due to underestimating how much negative impact they were about to have on the displaced who mobilized against them.

Spoiler

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Did Sam really change the hardened senator's mind with a few well-placed words, probably not - but did he perhaps embolden the opposition who were about to roll over and let said senator have his way without inviting more disenfranchised voices into the discussion? Absolutely.

but it's not about the speech. It's about how Captain America looks at the camera and tell the people watching - the in-universe audience and the out-of-universe audience that things have to change, but we can make things better.

Think about it. Yhea, it was a little awkward, but they stuck the landing better than I otherwise would have expected.


Also, you can't tell me that the last scene with Elijah wasn't *on point*

Also this.

I am just kind of disillusioned by National Superheroes and speaking to the Camera for that never works yet we are taught in a didactically way that only this form of change is acceptable. Meanwhile when real change happens we reincorporate it and re-metabolisze it and say it happened due to A when it really happened due to A+B+C+D+E and so on and without those other letters A never works on its own.

A good speech without everything else is a flawed way to understand history much like Thomas Carlyle and his coined term "Great Man Theory" which is part of a larger 6 series lectures on hero-worship. I disagree with this idea as much as Nietzsche agreed with Carlyle when he created his concept of the Übermensch.

I bring this stuff up for it is related to what the show is talking about, even if I feel the show is messy and is not sure of what it wants to say.

It doesn't work in our world because we don't have any Paragons who go around literally wearing a symbol that embodies our greatest ideals delivering those messages. A world with superheroes however does, especially a superhero that would have been required reading in every history class from the 40s to the present day and beyond - and one would argue that that kind of embodiment/inspiration is ultimately the point of superheroes in the first place.

Unless of course we want to be cynical and write them off purely as "petty escapism," to borrow an eloquent turn of phrase from the Giant. I certainly don't.

I am saying you can not face racism of the past, or material deprivation of the present something that happens daily with our borders and systems of power via punching things. It is as absurd as dressing as a bat in order to solve crime. 🙃

No one is saying that, because they aren't solving those problems by punching things. Rather, being good at punching things is what gives them a megaphone with the people who can (namely, us and the people we put in power.) We the people are the ones who can make those things better, not the heroes, but the heroes are the ones who shine the spotlight on those issues and get the conversation going.

As for Batman, this is another reason I dislike him, but that's another thread. Suffice to say it's a bad analogy.

[Mechalich]

I think, insofar as this series has issues or struggles to match up with standard superhero tropes, it's because it got The Blip all over it.

The Blip is a mess. It's an event that impacts literally every person on the planet and every other aspect of society and offers very few win/win solutions. Billions of people vanished and then were restored to a world that was not the one they had left, and that world spent five full years evolving to exist without them. There's absolutely nothing simple about the reconciliation process behind that event and even a series that wasn't wedded to superhero tropes would struggle to get a handle on even the scope of the issue in six short episodes.

I mean, the central issue the Flag-Smashers are dealing with is complex interaction of circumstances for which an entire field of law would need to be invented, and that's just the start.

Spider-Man: Far from Home did its very best to handwave the Blip and everything surrounding it as a solved problem, with the only references to it after the opening scene brief comic interludes. In all honesty, as ruinous to suspension of disbelief as that is, its probably the best approach (and the MCU already have time travel, so there's not a whole lot of verisimilitude to lose). Though personally, I think the Blip itself was a bad idea in the first place and the classic approach of 'The Snap never happened' would have been a better choice.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, I kind of love that the blip is remaining canon, allowing writers to take that fictional world altering event and use it to draw parallels to actual real world problems. Are these comparisons ever exact? No. Obviously. But I’ve yet to see any fictional movie or tv show explore all levels of an issue before anyway. Though admittedly the Wire comes closest.

Anyway, quite liked the finale. Biggest misstep is Carter.

Spoiler

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Her plans appear to be nonsense since her reveal episode.

I can get behind what they’re doing with her character. But mastermind plans have to have a tangible real goal behind them or they’re just characters doing random stuff for the shocking reveals.

And as to the speech. Yeah a bit cheesy. But since the messaging of the show is individual people can make a difference to make the world better, I find it hard to be annoyed by it. Even if it is a politically unsophisticated view of the world. Or makes it look simpler than it actually is.

[Rater202]

The fourth episode places a bit of emphasis on whether or not someone would or should take the supersoldier serum if it's offered to them. Sam says no with no hesitation, he doesn't want to need it. Lemar says he would, again with no hesitation. John Walker hesitates and considers the risk before settling on yes... In part due to pressure.

I honestly have to wonder how most people would answer.

I mean, assuming it's a stable version of the MCU Serum with the effects of "fixes everything wrong with your body, gives you low levels of superhuman strength and speed, and makes you more yourself, for good or so ill" gotta say, I'd be tempted.

Myopia, astigmatism, early-onset arthritis in multiple joints, sometimes I think my hearing is going, permanent circulatory damage from a freak blood clot, chronic headaches, overly sensitive and infection-prone sinuses, I've been exposed to carcinogens on and off my whole life, and I have a family history of cancer, diabetes, and abuse of addictive substances. I am also quite fat due to a combination of stupid decisions as a child, bad genes, and lack of ability or opportunity to diet or exercise.

If I could get a one-shot treatment that took care of all of that, fixed the problems I have, and make it so I didn't have to worry about the ones I don't have yet but are statistically gonna be a problem later... god damn would I be tempted.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I’m ambivalent about the Blip not being undone. It was a very daring choice as far as their world building but thus far they really haven’t used it well.

Unrelated, I had a thought that Contessa Val might secretly be Veranke. Sure, they could be trying to hint at Hydra coming back (again), but we’ve also got Secret Invasion coming up...