The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[Spacewolf]

I'm speechless yet again

Except that's clearly not used in the legal sense of get away with it it's in the moral sense of he is in the morally correct you know proving my point that Caps objections to the accords only work because it is cap who has them. Though yea did forget the wording there and was confused by the misunderstanding.

Given we know the reverse is true (be unable to lift it, but still be capable of saving the world multiple times - i.e. Tony) I'm not sure what value that litmus really has at the end of the day.

I suspect the Asgardian version of worthy doesn't nessicarily mean the same as what humans would call moral as well so yea hammer probably isn't the best test of righteousness.

Not only do the Accords not have such a clause, they pretty much never will, since the Avengers could interpret that in all kinds of ways to act when SHIELD, SWORD, Ross, Hawyard, their shadowy handlers etc don't want them to. And that is their chief flaw that Steve foresaw.

Even if we set aside the logistical issues of quickly convening a vote during a crisis somehow, any number of influential bad guys (and I count Ross among them) could easily get that vote forestalled or corrupted. Or the vote will go through and give the Avengers {specific directive} then they enter the field and realize they need to do {something else} instead, resulting in them getting yelled at.

No, the Accords serve one purpose and one purpose only - so that {UN Representative} can haul the heroes in and yell at them about being loose cannons who don't play by the rules, without being associated with any one country. It will pretty much never be used to make the heroes lives easier than they would be without it.

Shadowy overlords? Considering the Avengers still seem to have very close ties to Shield I doubt they would consider them shadow overlords. You'll excuse me if I don't think these theoretical shadowy overlords are worth extrajudicial death squads especially after Zemo/Scarlet shows how easily they can be manipulated. As for the first point of this statement Tony basically says once the PR dies down they'll be able to get something like that. At least until steve screws it up by beating up abunch of swat, causing multicar pile ups and wrecking probably hundreds of millions of pounds of damage so he can save his friend. Without even trying to go through proper channels. Which he faces no consequences for because his billionaire friend keeps him out of jail by asking these "Shadowy overlords" nicely.

The text of the Accords goes against this it says "Any enhanced individuals who sign are prohibited from taking action in any country other than their own unless they are first given clearance by either that country's government or by a United Nations subcommittee" it doesn't specify that they will have specific directives and infact it reads as once they are given permission they can act within reason to achieve those goals. If they go to far that would be a retroactive thing presumably since that's the only way it could work given the wording, you know actually hold people accountable for the deaths they cause. But that's obviously a shadowy government conspiracy right? As for the ease of convening shield seemed to manage it pretty easily whenever they needed to do it.

Yea you're correct which is something that is needed, nobody should be without oversight. Again I cannot conceive of having people being allowed to kill whoever they want without consequence, needing to provide reason, violating sovereignty, and having complete immunity from prosecution being a good thing. Which brings me back to the point at the start of this post the only reason it works is if it's someone like Cap who says it.

To be honest this who show is basically a demonstration of why the avengers shouldn't be involved in local issues, if they had simply passed the information along to the local authorities the plot could have been resolved by episode two easily by an armed response team, the army wouldn't have even been needed. But nope Sam thinks he is above the law and is world police.

Sigh you do not get the horror of what Walker did. He is scary precisely because he didn't manically laugh. He is scary precisely because he will not lose sleep over it. He hurts people and he feels justified in it for he has his reasons and thus he is prioritizing his emotions and feels over the fact you can't resurrect the dead.

No military commander would want Walker on a Special Ops union / Seal Team 6 / Marians etc if he did not have superpowers. If there were 100 Super-Soldiers you would never use John Walker.

-----

And this is not counting people who have different responses with the Police for things they can't control, how the Cops treat some people differently. Whether it is due to race, gender, and so on. Some people are given far more benefits of the doubt and others are inherrently suspicious in this injust world.

What? Again he's literally shown feeling remorse over it, he might try to justify it to himself but the show is clearly trying to show he feels he had no choice until realising in the last episode that he made the wrong choice and decides to do the right one this time. It's important to recognise that the situation was he's been forced into taking a supersoldier syrum probably less than a half hour before that scene after being driven into it by the betrayal of people he looked upto and wanted to help and immediately after the death of his partner. If he'd actually been allowed to speak at his trial I perhaps we'd have seen that.

As for noone wanting him on their squad this is the guy who with no enhancements was judged to be the best man for the job, if you look at his chest during the trial scene the amount of medals he has is impressive and fits into what the mentions about jumping on three grenades to save his team. I suspect that might have been a joke but he has three medals of honour clearly he has done worthwhile things. Also worth mentioning is that Battlestar is the last remaining member of his squad. Considering all the things Cap does to save Bucky.

I do think that after killing the guy he should have been taken off active duty and retired even after he saves the people but treating him as worse than you know the terrorists who burn innocent people to death is abit much.

[Sapphire Guard]

The Accords are a giant book that none of us have read, so arguing about what they say or don't say isn't going to get us very far.

Given that Civil War has the US Secretary of State order the German police to execute someone in Romania for crimes committed in Austria, we might as well just give up and admit that the MCU runners don't care about any of this stuff.

The conflict in the movie was 'I want to avenge my parents' v 'no, he's mind controlled and he's my friend', the Accords end up being pretty sidelined.

Basically, it's a lose lose situation. Shadowy cabals are everywhere in this universe, but the Avengers frequently get mind controlled or manipulated into attacking each other and causing massive devastation. Either way, you just have to hunker down and hope you don't get caught in the crossfire.

[Ramza00]

The director and the actor who plays Walker has literally said the three medals of honor were shameful moments of Walker for everything went to hell and things got screwed up and people died even though Walker also saved people. Now that is not in the text itself, that is stuff outside the text in interviews, but this is pointing out how you "see things" operate on projection for all humans not just you, not just me. We "assume" that medals of honor are a good thing, while real life soldiers sometimes have horrible experiences of this really bad day, and others take it as moment of pride.

Life is not simple, it is messy.

US Agent is scary like from a horror movie, for real life we would not have a "Moral Saint" such as Steve Rogers having the serum. No we will have lesser men who are not perfect, including people who screw up during the real life human moments of stress such as Their Best Friend died, and now they are stuck in the 4th such incident (3 medals of honor are 3 previous incidents) and Walker has PTSD, and one reason he is always wanting moral reassurance from his best friend is that he is not coping with the PTSD as well as Walker himself wants to be. Sure Walker is coping, but he is not happy with how he is coping.

Life is messy.

-----

Like I said earlier the scariest horror is not some Cruella Da Ville flick, it is instead having the camera turn onto our own reality and something that goes wrong, and how that scares us, and we are all vulnerable to such circumstances. One bad day does happen, a cop with a metal shield can literally beat you to death even if you are complying with what you think his commands are.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Spacewolf
Not to mention the whole point of Infinity war is that it wasn't the Earth being attacked it was the avengers themselves so the accords wouldn't have affected that particular incident.

Just to follow up on what Kareeah said, Thanos and his minions were going after the stones, so they went wherever the stones were. Thanos attacked the Asgardian refugee ship only because Loki brought the Tesseract onboard without anyone knowing about it. (Which means the extermination of half the surviving Asgardians is really on him, but it can be argued he paid for it.)

The attacks in New York and Scotland only happened because the Time and Mind stones were being kept in those places, and likewise the devastation of Xandar and Knowhere (both offscreen) only happened because there were two more stones in those locations. If none of the stones had been on Earth, Thanos never would've bothered with the place.

[M1982]

Yes. That's very true too. Walker did not fought Sam and Bucky with the intent to just beat them off. He tried to kill them, and could have succeeded while they only wanted the shield back and clearly stated their intent.

Which neither of them had any right to demand of him. Technically they were trying to steal valauble military US property

The director and the actor who plays Walker has literally said the three medals of honor were shameful moments of Walker for everything went to hell and things got screwed up and people died even though Walker also saved people.

Isn't that kind of normal for earning a MoH? I mean unless there was some serious ### going down getting through the event would not be worth being awarded a MoH for. I'a assume most recipients would rather not having been through the events that earned them their MoH if given the choice.

[Spacewolf]

The director and the actor who plays Walker has literally said the three medals of honor were shameful moments of Walker for everything went to hell and things got screwed up and people died even though Walker also saved people. Now that is not in the text itself, that is stuff outside the text in interviews, but this is pointing out how you "see things" operate on projection for all humans not just you, not just me. We "assume" that medals of honor are a good thing, while real life soldiers sometimes have horrible experiences of this really bad day, and others take it as moment of pride.

Life is not simple, it is messy.

US Agent is scary like from a horror movie, for real life we would not have a "Moral Saint" such as Steve Rogers having the serum. No we will have lesser men who are not perfect, including people who screw up during the real life human moments of stress such as Their Best Friend died, and now they are stuck in the 4th such incident (3 medals of honor are 3 previous incidents) and Walker has PTSD, and one reason he is always wanting moral reassurance from his best friend is that he is not coping with the PTSD as well as Walker himself wants to be. Sure Walker is coping, but he is not happy with how he is coping.

Life is messy.

-----

Like I said earlier the scariest horror is not some Cruella Da Ville flick, it is instead having the camera turn onto our own reality and something that goes wrong, and how that scares us, and we are all vulnerable to such circumstances. One bad day does happen, a cop with a metal shield can literally beat you to death even if you are complying with what you think his commands are.

I can't find the interviews you are talking about but shameful doesn't mean he was morally wrong when he got them it just means he did the best he could and people still died but he still saved as many as he could. It's kind of hard to figure out what you're saying since I'm guessing english isn't your first language but it based on this and your previous post where you say that walker is scary it reads like you are saying that soldiers who do the best they can, have friends die and likely have PTSD are evil. Which is an odd statement to say the least. Especially when you then compare him to Da Ville.

The only quote I can find is "Three badges of excellence to make sure I never forget the worst day of my life. We both know that the things that we had to do in Afghanistan to be awarded those medals felt a long way from being right." which sounds to me like he very much regrets his actions there not exactly the actions of the psychopath remorseless soldier you're painting him out to be.

Edit: ok found one interview that talks about it "On set, Russell would pick the brain of a guy named Brendan. He's a trainer for Marvel and a former Marine. Brendan told him to listen to an interview with Dakota Meyer, who won the Medal of Honor for saving 36 lives in Afghanistan during a single battle. But he also had to extract the bodies of four dead Americans. During the interview, Meyer describes a day that he has to live with for the rest of his life. His friends died. And he got a medal for it. Russell imagines what it must feel like for Walker to look at his medal. What he thinks of when he sees it. What it's like for Walker to become Captain America and have millions of people to go, Yeah man, go for it! when you're suffering from PTSD. Russell asks: "We look at people who are in the service, like, Yeah, way to go. But we don't ever actually look into their heart and go, What's going on, really?"

Since I'm guess that is the interview you are talking about you are saying that some who has gone through a similar situation to the above where they save as many people as possible but not all, is someone who is a psycho who no army would want and that it is the equivalent to beating a man to death? My point was always that Walker might not have been Cap but the way Falcon in particular treats him prior to that point is horrendous and that if Falcon had actually helped him the situation would have turned out immeasurably better. Yet Sam gets the praise because these shows train us to accept protagonist centred morality. The reason I have spent so much time debating this over the past few days is that I honestly think the way we are conditioned to accept that is one of the reasons for the breakdown of modern discourse particularly in politics as we are trained not to even consider that the people our protagonists hurt have a valid point of view. But yea I'm done after this since that's about as far as I can take it without getting another warning. I won't be responding to anymore posts in this topic.

[Ramza00]

I can't find the interviews you are talking about but shameful doesn't mean he was morally wrong when he got them it just means he did the best he could and people still died but he still saved as many as he could. It's kind of hard to figure out what you're saying since I'm guessing english isn't your first language but it based on this and your previous post where you say that walker is scary it reads like you are saying that soldiers who do the best they can, have friends die and likely have PTSD are evil. Which is an odd statement to say the least. Especially when you then compare him to Da Ville.

The only quote I can find is "Three badges of excellence to make sure I never forget the worst day of my life. We both know that the things that we had to do in Afghanistan to be awarded those medals felt a long way from being right." which sounds to me like he very much regrets his actions there not exactly the actions of the psychopath remorseless soldier you're painting him out to be.

I have never used the word evil in this thread in response to Walker. I feel you are putting words into my mouth for you are not understanding my thoughts and it is accidental on your part.

I did use the word evil a month ago with different characters in a different contexts.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=277

Writers get to choose what choices they make, what beats to highlight. Inserting ambiguity etc. That is the nature of storytelling.

——————

Both the writer and the director has talked about Walkers 3 medals in several interviews. I first heard it from a Wyatt Russell podcast for I listened to 7+ hours of podcasts a day when I do work and such. But here is a similar esquire interview where they reference a real life person from Afghanistan and how they channeled this other person experience to craft a fictional character and making it a layered character in a method action kind of way.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...-post-credits/

But yeah writer and director has talked about it multiple times for when you are doing press you do several interviews per day and you both have canned stories but you also change how you tell the story to stay sane but also keep casual conversation for the goal is to be friendly, casual, human, energy in the interview and not retelling the story like it is a rout memorization.

——————

Even though I have not used the word Evil with Walker, I have compared him to Cruella and said he is not Cruella. But there are many types of characters, many types of antagonists and villains. You can have a person who does horrible things even if they think they are doing good, or they screwed up, and they did human things, you can have all this and be a failure.

Horrible things in stories can make something a “Horror moment” like a movie, a tv show, or just how you shoot the scenes in episode 4 and 5. Those scenes are shot in a way where you use Horror Film language. They are not accidental choices, they were purposefully framed that way with camera angles and so on to emphasize things in the human brain to trigger emotions such as fear. But they are also filmed in such a way that is memetic, that is mimicry of previous film storytelling where this moment will feel familiar to other action scenes and horror movies. Film directors often go to film school to learn about previous movies and how to compose a shot. And even if they do not have college experience, most directors who are self taught still have lots of practice with previous film work and their own love of watching lots of movie and tv.

[Spacewolf]

I have never used the word evil in this thread in response to Walker. I feel you are putting words into my mouth for you are not understanding my mouth and it is accidental on your part.

I did use the word evil a month ago with different characters in a different contexts.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=277

Writers get to choose what choices they make, what beats to highlight. Inserting ambiguity etc. That is the nature of storytelling.

——————

Both the writer and the director has talked about Walkers 3 medals in several interviews. I first heard it from a Wyatt Russell podcast for I listened to 7+ hours of podcasts a day when I do work and such. But here is a similar esquire interview where they reference a real life person from Afghanistan and how they channeled this other person experience to craft a fictional character and making it a layered character in a method action kind of way.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...-post-credits/

——————

Even though I have not used the word Evil with Walker, I have compared him to Cruella and said he is not Cruella. But there are many types of characters, many types of antagonists and villains. You can have a person who does horrible things even if they think they are doing good, or they screwed up, and they did human things, you can have all this and be a failure.

Horrible things in stories can make something a “Horror moment” like a movie, a tv show, or just how you shoot the scenes in episode 4 and 5. Those scenes are shot in a way where you use Horror Film language. They are not accidental choices, they were purposefully framed that way with camera angles and so on to emphasize things in the human brain to trigger emotions such as fear. But they are also filmed in such a way that is memetic, that is mimicry of previous film storytelling where this moment will feel familiar to other action scenes and horror movies. Film directors often go to film school to learn about previous movies and how to compose a shot. And even if they do not have college experience, most directors who are self taught still have lots of practice with previous film work and their own love of watching lots of movie and tv.

Sorry I edited my post above to go into more detail while you where posting this, my apologies. I think we where talking past each other and have come to an understanding. Thank you for the reasonable discourse.

[Starbuck_II]

Which neither of them had any right to demand of him. Technically they were trying to steal valauble military US property



Isn't that kind of normal for earning a MoH? I mean unless there was some serious ### going down getting through the event would not be worth being awarded a MoH for. I'a assume most recipients would rather not having been through the events that earned them their MoH if given the choice.

Yes, exactly why I see Falcon and Bucky as bullies.

Sigh you do not get the horror of what Walker did. He is scary precisely because he didn't manically laugh. He is scary precisely because he will not lose sleep over it. He hurts people and he feels justified in it for he has his reasons and thus he is prioritizing his emotions and feels over the fact you can't resurrect the dead.

No military commander would want Walker on a Special Ops union / Seal Team 6 / Marians etc if he did not have superpowers. If there were 100 Super-Soldiers you would never use John Walker.

-----

And this is not counting people who have different responses with the Police for things they can't control, how the Cops treat some people differently. Whether it is due to race, gender, and so on. Some people are given far more benefits of the doubt and others are inherrently suspicious in this injust world.

Um, Black Widow was exactly that way...
She killed people and was trained to not show emotion over it.

The Black Widow movie will likely show multiple "super soldier" Black Widows trained to be the same.

Do you know how many black Ops/Special Ops do terrible things for their country in real life?
Can't name them due to politics banning rule, but yeah numerous ones in the US alone.

Walker would be highly sought after in real life.
"
So, why not in the Marvel universe. Remember, military is doing stuff like reviving Vision (while ethical or not, that happened).

[Ramza00]

Yes, exactly why I see Falcon and Bucky as bullies.


Um, Black Widow was exactly that way...
She killed people and was trained to not show emotion over it.

The Black Widow movie will likely show multiple "super soldier" Black Widows trained to be the same.

Do you know how many black Ops/Special Ops do terrible things for their country in real life?
Can't name them due to politics banning rule, but yeah numerous ones in the US alone.

Walker would be highly sought after in real life.
"
So, why not in the Marvel universe. Remember, military is doing stuff like reviving Vision (while ethical or not, that happened).

My opinions of what royal “We” do in the real world can not be shared due to rules with this board.

I repeat though, if a military commander had a 100 secret soldiers he would not be putting Walker back into the field of a team of 3, 6, 12, whatever number until he had renewed faith. Stuff like therapy and so on. We ground soldiers and special officers all the time.

And re allowing them back onto the field if we think we control them, even if we are confident they do immoral things. That is this broken reality that we live in. The John Walker speech to the only senator in MCU after the Hydra one, that speech is true. The system made people like Walker, we have soldiers with PTSD all the time, and sometimes we ground them, and sometimes we put the soldier with PTSD back in the field. We fail our populace at large, our soldiers, and everyone all the time. How we respond to the failure shows us the measure of the man and the measure of our system.

Like you said above, Black Widow knows how deep the well / abyss goes. I liked some of those aspects in the Age of Ultron movie, yet Joss Whedon or a different exec really should have not included the force infertility plot detail for it is yuck.

[Psyren]

Except that's clearly not used in the legal sense of get away with it it's in the moral sense of he is in the morally correct you know proving my point that Caps objections to the accords only work because it is cap who has them. Though yea did forget the wording there and was confused by the misunderstanding.

Between not remembering what's in your own posts and missing what I said even at the very beginning of my own, it makes this kind of discussion pretty challenging to have

Shadowy overlords? Considering the Avengers still seem to have very close ties to Shield I doubt they would consider them shadow overlords. You'll excuse me if I don't think these theoretical shadowy overlords are worth extrajudicial death squads especially after Zemo/Scarlet shows how easily they can be manipulated. As for the first point of this statement Tony basically says once the PR dies down they'll be able to get something like that. At least until steve screws it up by beating up abunch of swat, causing multicar pile ups and wrecking probably hundreds of millions of pounds of damage so he can save his friend. Without even trying to go through proper channels. Which he faces no consequences for because his billionaire friend keeps him out of jail by asking these "Shadowy overlords" nicely.

The text of the Accords goes against this it says "Any enhanced individuals who sign are prohibited from taking action in any country other than their own unless they are first given clearance by either that country's government or by a United Nations subcommittee" it doesn't specify that they will have specific directives and infact it reads as once they are given permission they can act within reason to achieve those goals. If they go to far that would be a retroactive thing presumably since that's the only way it could work given the wording, you know actually hold people accountable for the deaths they cause. But that's obviously a shadowy government conspiracy right? As for the ease of convening shield seemed to manage it pretty easily whenever they needed to do it.

For starters, if you're against "extrajudicial death squads" then I find it pretty ironic that you appear to be supporting John Walker of all people, who did exactly that on camera in front of dozens of civilians and does not show even the smallest iota of remorse for it, even during the official hearing taking him to task over it. Not to mention lying to the family of the person he supposedly exacted that "justice" for. In short, he's not fit to carry that shield or wear that mantle. This is not to say he won't do any good at all as "US Agent", but again, his eagerness to prove that he is useful to literally any authority figure able to validate him just means he is ripe for being manipulated in ways that neither Steve nor Sam would fall for. That's ultimately the point being made here.

EDIT: Above is directed at Starbuck's post as well - note that Sam and Bucky, despite disliking John, never tried to physically separate him from the shield until he used it to commit murder on camera. That makes them sensible and restrained, not "bullies."

Yea you're correct which is something that is needed, nobody should be without oversight. Again I cannot conceive of having people being allowed to kill whoever they want without consequence, needing to provide reason, violating sovereignty, and having complete immunity from prosecution being a good thing. Which brings me back to the point at the start of this post the only reason it works is if it's someone like Cap who says it.

I don't recall Steve ever being "immune from prosecution" either. If that were the case, he wouldn't have needed to go into hiding nor stash Bucky in Wakanda. It just so happened that Thanos' attack and the subsequent Snap pushed any kind of reckoning for Steve to the backburner, and even if post-Snap anyone was willing to revisit the charges that would be filed against him, it became moot once he decided to live out his life in the other timeline with Peggy.

To be honest this who show is basically a demonstration of why the avengers shouldn't be involved in local issues, if they had simply passed the information along to the local authorities the plot could have been resolved by episode two easily by an armed response team, the army wouldn't have even been needed. But nope Sam thinks he is above the law and is world police.

Which "local issue" would that be? The Chitauri? Chasing down Hydra holdouts? Thanos? The Flagsmashers? None of these were "local issues" so I don't even know what you're referring to.

[Kyberwulf]

I love this immunity people give Steve when he literally put the world at risk to save his friend. Selfishly. Steve does a whole lot of questionable stuff, yet just because of plot armor. It all works our in the end. Real "ends justify the means" guys.

Also armies would love soldier's like him. The only reason he was disciplined so harshly, wasn't cause he was in the wrong. It was because he was photographed and it became political. I mean dude was dealing with terrorists

[Ramza00]

I love this immunity people give Steve when he literally put the world at risk to save his friend. Selfishly. Steve does a whole lot of questionable stuff, yet just because of plot armor. It all works our in the end. Real "ends justify the means" guys.

Yep. Steve was ****ty then. Misguided heroism, misguided moral saint who has inverted his 2012 Avengers 1 morality much like how Tony in 2023 Endgame has inverted his 2012 Avengers morality.

That said Steve does what he does in Infinity War for he feels he has a Kantian duty to save Vision, all those Wakandian soldiers are volunteers. Vision is a thing onto itself per Kant, and thus what Steve did was the opposite of end justify the means. Like the literal opposite.


https://www.vox.com/summer-movies/20...-moral-dilemma

And look at the result. Look at the consequence!

Thousands of volunteers at Wakanda died in that battle. Why is it moral for these Wakandians to do suicide by battle with aliens instead of Vision doing suicide by having his wife kill him for due to magic MCU rules, only mind stone superheroes can destroy the mind stone?

Also armies would love soldier's like him. The only reason he was disciplined so harshly, wasn't cause he was in the wrong. It was because he was photographed and it became political. I mean dude was dealing with terrorists

Terrorists were stealing foods and supplies. The refugees did not have bread, literal food, and thus there are terrorists.

The US got called in (even though it is not their jurisdiction, they self appointed themselves and called themselves in) for now the terrorists have super soldier serum when the terrorists rob a bank. Later after the bank robbing the 19* year old leader did a bombing for this is the only language they understand. That is all John Walker knows when you say they are dealing with terrorists.

*The real life actress is 22, but in an interview her fictional character is supposedly 19. Likewise on the show Sam calls Karli a “misguided teenager.”

[Cikomyr2]

Which neither of them had any right to demand of him. Technically they were trying to steal valauble military US property.

I want you to reread your post carefully, and explain to me the ethics reasoning that states that lethal force and intent to kill is justified if you protect valuable military US property against people who are using nonlethal methods against you.

Especially since the very person you were most likely to kill has been vetted and authorized to handle valuable US military property in the past, and still uses the US military-provided set of falcon wings.

[Sapphire Guard]

Self Defence, given that they attacked him for no reason?

[hungrycrow]

Self Defence, given that they attacked him for no reason?

Arguably they were trying to pull a citizen's arrest. Really the legality of anything they do is pretty questionable though.

[Sapphire Guard]

Nah, they just wanted the shield. If they were arresting him, they would have arrested him.

[Ramza00]

Nah, they just wanted the shield. If they were arresting him, they would have arrested him.

They did call an ambulance before they walked into the room.

[hungrycrow]

Nah, they just wanted the shield. If they were arresting him, they would have arrested him.

Sam also wanted Walker to explain what happened to the authorities. If Walker had given up the shield, but not submitted to the authorities, I don't think Sam and Bucky would have been cool with it.

[Starbuck_II]

Sam also wanted Walker to explain what happened to the authorities. If Walker had given up the shield, but not submitted to the authorities, I don't think Sam and Bucky would have been cool with it.

Who were the authorities at the time anyway?
I mean, after beating him up and taking the shield, he didn't submit to authorities, I think.

Later, when he got home, he did (probably because medical team alerted authorities before treating and taking him home).

[Cikomyr2]

Self Defence, given that they attacked him for no reason?

Thats a legal argument for killing, not an ethical argument. Walker explicitly went for the kill.

[Sapphire Guard]

Getting punched by Bucky's vibranium arm is pretty lethal. Getting thrown into that forklift is pretty lethal.

Walker doesn't want to fight at all, he's trying to get them to back off. 'Why are you making me do this' They attack him. If he wanted to use lethal force, why not use his gun?

They want the shield, so they beat him to get it, deliberately break his arm, and then walk away and leave him on the ground injured and helpless.

That ain't no arrest.

[Ramza00]

Getting punched by Bucky's vibranium arm is pretty lethal. Getting thrown into that forklift is pretty lethal.

Walker doesn't want to fight at all, he's trying to get them to back off. 'Why are you making me do this' They attack him. If he wanted to use lethal force, why not use his gun?

They want the shield, so they beat him to get it, deliberately break his arm, and then walk away and leave him on the ground injured and helpless.

That ain't no arrest.

Maybe supers as a concept 🤔 leads to bad things for people take things into their own hands for they feel super-ior. A superiority complex is not the opposite of the inferiority complex, instead it is just different sides of the same fence.

Interesting idea 🤔 about a show where some people argue our obligations to one another ends for they are on the wrong side of a magical idea that we call a border.

[Psyren]

I love this immunity people give Steve when he literally put the world at risk to save his friend. Selfishly.

He wasn't just "saving his friend." He suspected, and as soon as he found Bucky before the authorities did he knew, that someone very powerful was framing Bucky for a nefarious end. And then when he found out what that end was (the other Winter Soldiers) he told Tony about it. Tony responded by dismissing him and choosing not to listen. It wasn't until after the airport fight, when Tony got the intel from Friday that confirmed Steve had been telling the truth about Zemo, that Tony realized he had been acting like an ass, and that he was in the wrong. Hence tricking Ross to go to Siberia without orders.

They were just lucky that it was Zemo, notorious super-soldier-hater, that went to the trouble of digging through Hydra's dirty laundry to find them - and not someone else who might have actually used the frozen Winter Soldiers to do some real damage.

The only reason he was disciplined so harshly, wasn't cause he was in the wrong. It was because he was photographed and it became political. I mean dude was dealing with terrorists

Well yeah, obviously that's the real reason they discharged Walker. They wouldn't have cared if he murdered that surrendering flagsmasher where nobody could see. But the big difference between Steve and John is that had Steve flown into a rage and killed that man, he would have relinquished the shield then and there regardless of whether anyone saw him do it. He in fact did exactly that after using it on Tony, in a remote corner of Siberia, and he didn't even kill him! That is why Steve deserved to be Captain America, and why John Walker never will.

Getting punched by Bucky's vibranium arm is pretty lethal.

Not to a super-soldier, which they knew he was at that point. We were clearly shown that with the flagsmashers themselves, fighting Bucky numerous times.

[Sapphire Guard]

Steve doesn't care about the shield at all, it's just a tool. When he loses it, he only cares insofar as he has lost a useful tool, he has no issues about using a different one or giving it up. He doesn't have any issues about living up to the shield, he sets it down just to make a point to Batroc at one point.

The thing about lethal force is, it's whatever the writers say it is. Zemo takes the shield to the side of the head in an earlier scene and is knocked out but otherwise fine. There's no 'the supersoldier will be fine at this level of force' because different people react differently. Walker had no intent to kill anyone, he's defending himself from people trying to violently rob him. Maybe he's aiming for a knockout, who knows?

[Morgaln]

He wasn't just "saving his friend." He suspected, and as soon as he found Bucky before the authorities did he knew, that someone very powerful was framing Bucky for a nefarious end. And then when he found out what that end was (the other Winter Soldiers) he told Tony about it. Tony responded by dismissing him and choosing not to listen. It wasn't until after the airport fight, when Tony got the intel from Friday that confirmed Steve had been telling the truth about Zemo, that Tony realized he had been acting like an ass, and that he was in the wrong. Hence tricking Ross to go to Siberia without orders.

They were just lucky that it was Zemo, notorious super-soldier-hater, that went to the trouble of digging through Hydra's dirty laundry to find them - and not someone else who might have actually used the frozen Winter Soldiers to do some real damage.

Bucky wasn't some innocent person who just got framed. Bucky already was a wanted criminal and terrorist, due to his actions in Winter Soldier, as well as previous crimes going back decades. Since Bucky is a superpowered indivdual, it would have been Steve's duty as an Avenger to go and apprehend Bucky. If he suspected foul play, he could then have worked within the system to clear Bucky's name where the attack on the UN was concerned.

Instead, he went to seek out Bucky on his own, kept him there long enough for the police to arrive, then helped him escape by fighting the police and causing mass accidents on a high-traffic street, probably causing multiple long-term injuries and risking the deaths of innocent people who were just unlucky enough to be on the street during his rampage (admittedly, he's not the only one to blame here, T'Challa certainly shares that). All because he puts his friendship with Bucky over any moral concerns, his duties or the law. And when he gets caught, he acts all unconcerned as if it was perfectly alright. He thinks he can make his own law because he knows better, which is incredibly arrogant, and he is not taking responsibility for his actions. That's the exact reason why something like the Accords are necessary, even if they might not be perfect.

At this point, Steve Rogers is a criminal and should be treated as such. Of course that hurts his credibility and standing. But he doesn't learn from that and instead makes the same mistakes again when Bucky escapes. The Hulk at least had the excuse of not being in control when he went on a rampage in Age of Ultron. Steve makes conscious choices to betray the other Avengers.

(Edit for better spacing/readability)

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah. Pretty much everything that happens in Civil War happens because Steve Rogers is amazingly bad at introspection and self-awareness.

Like the opening in Lagos, where the operation goes to **** and causes problems that it wouldn't have if he was a capable operational planner (because he would have, for instance, contacted local authorities to provide civilian evacuation and security cordon). But at no point in the movie does Steve stop to consider that he might actually bear the primary blame for Lagos going south.

What he could, and should, have done in response to the focus on Scarlet Witch's actions is to personally take responsibility as the operational planner and commander, because Wanda was responding to the best of her abilities to an emergent situation which happened because of him.

But, just like his attempt to save his friend despite what he might have done, he's wrapped up in the idea that only he knows what's really best.

[Kyberwulf]

It's not just that, imagine what Steve would have done if Tony didn't stop trying to kill bucky. How far would Steve really had gone if Tony HAD killed bucky?

[Cikomyr2]

The thing about lethal force is, it's whatever the writers say it is. Zemo takes the shield to the side of the head in an earlier scene and is knocked out but otherwise fine. There's no 'the supersoldier will be fine at this level of force' because different people react differently. Walker had no intent to kill anyone, he's defending himself from people trying to violently rob him. Maybe he's aiming for a knockout, who knows?

Nonono. That's not how the action scene framed that. Walker had Wilson down and vulnerable. Walker explicitly takes a haymaker swing with the shield at Wilson's head, and either Wilson uses his jetpack to get out of the way or Bucky intervenes.

Either way, this was framed as "Walker would have killed/crippled him right here and there for wanting the shield back"

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Bucky wasn't some innocent person who just got framed. Bucky already was a wanted criminal and terrorist, due to his actions in Winter Soldier, as well as previous crimes going back decades. Since Bucky is a superpowered indivdual, it would have been Steve's duty as an Avenger to go and apprehend Bucky. If he suspected foul play, he could then have worked within the system to clear Bucky's name where the attack on the UN was concerned.

No he couldn’t, because at this point in the story the people sent after Bucky had shoot-to-kill orders and Steve knew this. So it was interfere or let an innocent man get gunned down in cold blood. (And yes, innocent, because at this point Steve also knew about the brainwashing.)