The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[ecarden]

I do think the DM went overboard in that scene (obviously so, since they got so caught up in ass-kicking that they let their quarry escape.) However, I disagree that any of those thrusts were truly going to be lethal or debilitating. The spear toss that pinned Walker and his shield to the table was too precise to be the result of passion or chance, and I think all their stabs were similarly intended to stop Walker and Hoskins from intervening without killing them.

Would I have preferred that they aimed the pointy bits away from the other characters entirely, absolutely - but the main purpose of that scene was to increase Walker's feelings of inadequacy to a breaking point where he would decide to take the serum regardless of any potential consequences, and to allow Zemo to escape custody.

I rewatched the scene and it looked pretty lethal to me (though they may have been going for the thrust-stop-when-it-hits-skin which occurs a lot in fiction and is a good way to kill someone who's moving around in a fight, but Bucky who is our best shot at knowing anything much about them assumes it's a lethal strike as he intervenes. Don't think it's solvable with the info we have).

But I agree about the narrative point of the scene. The problem is that that the Dora Milaje should not care about humbling John and should care about capturing Zemo, so the scene doesn't work for me as their goals/character are being subordinated to the larger plot.

Now, I enjoy trying to come up with reasons that's not so, but in the end I think it probably is (death of the author aside).

Now, the scene could be interpreted as furthering a different message of the show, that is 'violence isn't always the answer' as the attempted snatches of Zemo fail, but Bucky arrests him relatively peacefully later (though if we're talking about crimes, pointing a gun at someone who is in no way resisting, is in fact a crime ETA: and pulling the trigger, holding them at gunpoint, not so much).

On the John-Sam-Bucky fight...so John is 95% responsible for this. He has just killed (probably murder, but the question of whether the man surrendered is actually somewhat ambiguous as best I can tell, but he definitely wasn't resisting, so depends on the capacity he was acting in? And regardless, after the first couple of blows, the man was incapacitated, so definitely crime) someone, in circumstances that at a minimum require him to stand down and assist with an investigation.

Though I do wonder how Bucky/Sam know about that? Did they follow him? I guess they had to, but everyone scattered and they're either same speed (Bucky) or faster (Sam) so how did he have time to butcher Nico, pose, flee and then be caught after a long run? I guess they chased other folks then heard about it and caught up? Or remained behind to try to revive Lemar and failed, then pursued? Not sure how they'd have followed him then, but maybe?

The fight itself...again, very impressive technically. The scene where the wings are ripped off is visually stunning. And they're definitely coding it as John is using lethal force, which is fine (narratively, not morally). I long ago accepted that the MCU is playing by very different rules about what kills people and intent is apparently a big part of it.

However, the problem here is two-fold. One, this ought to be entirely in Sam's wheelhouse. De-escalation is the name of the game and he's dealing with a veteran who he's interacted with fairly extensively at this point. This ought to be the place for him to shine. Instead, he says he needs to put down the shield, which entirely predictably results in violence. And when I say predictably, I mean it ought to have been predictable for the characters. We aren't the only ones who see how much the shield means to him and they directly note how tightly wound he is and it's obvious how much pressure he's under to live up to it. Telling him to put it down is a very high stakes move at a moment when they ought to be trying to lower the stakes.

Second, the line itself. The shield is a weapon, but far less lethal than the gun John still has and isn't mentioned. This isn't about disarming the man, it's about the larger narrative around the shield/legacy. Hence "You gotta give me that shield, man." Not even 'put it down,' but 'give it to me.' Come on, Sam, you know better than this. This is putting symbolism over character again!

Which means it doesn't work for me. This should have been Sam's crowning achievement (especially if they aren't going to let him talk Karli down, have him talk someone, anyone, down). If you still want the fight, there's plenty of ways to prompt one. Frankly, Bucky getting sick of all this and not being able to stand blood on the shield (like it was never there before? Come on narrative) is perfectly fine. Some furious Flagsmasher supporters mixing in (especially non super soldiers to really drive home their level of support and the terror that might be felt trying to face down a supersoldier with a few scavenged weapons) would start it to and leave Sam/Bucky trying to save people from John, which would actually be an impressive scene too and could easily end in the 2-1 melee they wanted.

ETA: On the topic of things that irritated me, the reaction to John wanting Captain America's wingmen with him did not work for me. Come on Sam, reacting like wingman is equivalent of 'sidekick' is ridiculous most of the time, but remember how the trauma that sent you ought of the Air Force and into counseling was the loss of your "wingman, Riley"? Argh! I know the MCU is big, but Falcon and Bucky actually haven't appeared that much, you could watch all their scenes in an hour or two, writers. If you'd just had him call them sidekicks, or assistants, even as a joke, that would be okay, but come on.

ETA2: Thank you Kareeah_Indaga!

[Clertar]

But I agree about the narrative point of the scene. The problem is that that the Dora Milaje should not care about humbling John and should care about capturing Zemo, so the scene doesn't work for me as their goals/character are being subordinated to the larger plot.

The initial spear shot was not aimed at Walker anymore than it was aimed at the Falcon, it was meant to interrupt them and announce that the Dora Milaje had arrived, and that they meant business.

As for the start of the fight, John Walker was very patronizing with the Dora Milaje, and they only attacked him after he touched them.

Spoiler

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Their reaction is in-character, and consistent with their fictional status---we know that they are spartan-like fierce warriors, alreaday in Civil War Black Panther makes a comment in that sense to Black Widow. Besides, if any of us tried that that with an on-duty security forces officer IRL, chances are we'll get the non-spear equivalent of this reaction.

[hungrycrow]

The initial spear shot was not aimed at Walker anymore than it was aimed at the Falcon, it was meant to interrupt them and announce that the Dora Milaje had arrived, and that they meant business.

As for the start of the fight, John Walker was very patronizing with the Dora Milaje, and they only attacked him after he touched them.

Spoiler

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Their reaction is in-character, and consistent with their fictional status---we know that they are spartan-like fierce warriors, alreaday in Civil War Black Panther makes a comment in that sense to Black Widow. Besides, if any of us tried that that with an on-duty security forces officer IRL, chances are we'll get the non-spear equivalent of this reaction.

The equivalent scenario would be said officer pulling out a sword and trying to stab you while you were down. It's not exactly out of character for them to be that hot-headed, but, are they supposed to be bad guys? Walker killing a downed opponent was presented as crossing a line, and his motivation was waaaay less petty.

Also, the real problem with their actions is that they're soldiers on a mission. None of them keep an eye on their target.

[Tyndmyr]

The equivalent scenario would be said officer pulling out a sword and trying to stab you while you were down. It's not exactly out of character for them to be that hot-headed, but, are they supposed to be bad guys? Walker killing a downed opponent was presented as crossing a line, and his motivation was waaaay less petty.

Also, the real problem with their actions is that they're soldiers on a mission. None of them keep an eye on their target.

This. Getting overly focused on an insult and losing track of their actual objective makes them look weak and petty, not strong. They are supposed to be pros. Losing track of Zemo here definitely doesn't help that.

Pushing the plot at the expense of character motivation is a pretty frequent problem here, which is particularly rough given how thin the plot is. There is really no good reason for this scene in general. It doesn't further anyone's objectives. If Zemo wanted to avoid imprisonment, why does he just go to the memorial? I read that as an acceptance of being captured. Sam and Bucky get nothing from it. The Dora Miljae don't get Zemo. It's mostly just an excuse for a fight, I think.

If the Civil War police had shoot to kill orders, why didn't they kill him after they all surrendered?

Dunno, but the kill orders were made explicit in that film. If we're gonna try to justify this, which is always questionable given the axe-happy nature of the military/police in the MCU, perhaps we could say that they didn't consider the option that the Winter Soldier surrendering, and preferred to simply shoot him without giving him a chance to respond? It's the best I've got, but it is a slight incongruity.

That's a legal argument, not an ethical argument.

You guys seem really hung up on defending War Criminal John Walker based on a legal technicality.

It's not so much that Walker was good...this whole thing seemed to be setting him up for a fall, as that motivations get all wonky. As mentioned, the Shield stuff mostly gets into narrative/personal reasons, rather than focusing on what Walker has actually done. If it'd been "you've got rogue and started killing, we've got to bring you in" well, yeah, you can justify that. But it came across as a bit "well, I want that shield, because it's the part of the plot where I become Cap."

That's less sensible. The last episode in particular kind of hammered in that incongruity. Nobody actually treats Walker as a war criminal in the final episode. He's not being sent to jail or anything. Falcon and Bucky fight by his side, and seem not to be that upset about him being out. The killing is either a big deal or it's not, it shouldn't merely be a big deal for one episode, and then not anymore.

[Cikomyr2]

"The Shield"

It's.. not just a shield. The Shield; Captain America's Shield is.. it's like Excalibur. It's a symbol of everything Steve stood for, and what America should stand for. It's not a weapon; it's a promise of protection.

And in the Crazy MCU world, I think "The Shield" is considered by *everyone* as something more than just a fancy frisbee.


And that fancy frisbee was still drippling of the blood of a man who was executed. Walker was entrusted with America's Excalibur, and executed a defenseless man WITH IT because he couldn't stop and think about the consequence of his action.

[Morgaln]

You mean the Avengers that had just signed the Accords agreeing to sit on their hands and do nothing until they were told to by the UN? Those Avengers?

And Steve did know albeit for the wrong reasons. Recall, Crossbones told Steve that Hydra had put Bucky’s brain ‘back in the blender’. Turns out Crossbones was wrong/lying to mess with Steve, but at this point Steve has reason to believe he is 1.) brainwashed again and 2.) Steve himself is the only person who has managed to break through Bucky’s programming as far as Steve knows. And again, the shoot to kill orders. Imagine if Bucky had actually been in full Winter Soldier mode when those guys started shooting? If they didn’t kill the Winter Soldier, he’d have killed all of them.

Yes. Those Avengers. Who are not actually restricted to waiting on a UN mandate. They may also take action if the country they want to take action in allows them to. Which means the Avengers can proactively contact said government and offer their services. Especially when they are aware of an actual threat. What the Avengers did need at that point was someone who could make that kind of decision and make requests for deployment. Some like, say, Nick Fury.
And if Steve suspected Bucky might be brainwashed again (a reasonable assumption), going alone was irresponsible. He already knew he was barely a match for Bucky in a fight, and last time he had Sam helping him. Going in against a potential threat like that without any backup is just stupid. It's not like he has trouble finding people to help him later in the movie, after all.

[Starbuck_II]

"The Shield"

It's.. not just a shield. The Shield; Captain America's Shield is.. it's like Excalibur. It's a symbol of everything Steve stood for, and what America should stand for. It's not a weapon; it's a promise of protection.

And in the Crazy MCU world, I think "The Shield" is considered by *everyone* as something more than just a fancy frisbee.


And that fancy frisbee was still drippling of the blood of a man who was executed. Walker was entrusted with America's Excalibur, and executed a defenseless man WITH IT because he couldn't stop and think about the consequence of his action.

Defenseless, I don't think you mean that word.
Maybe you meant unarmed?

I remind you that Battlestar died to a "defenseless" "unarmed" woman.
The dead dude had the same strength as Karli.
He may have been wounded, but he was far from defenseless.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
If the Civil War police had shoot to kill orders, why didn't they kill him after they all surrendered?

Probably because they surrendered in a very public space, with a couple known superheros suddenly involved, which the police weren’t expecting in their original mission profile.

Shooting a suspected criminal in a dingy apartment is one thing, but shooting him out in the open, when he's clearly surrendering, is another thing entirely. Especially when America's most iconic superhero is standing right next to him.

That said, it does make you wonder why the helicopter opened up on Black Panther, since they had no idea who he was.

[Ramza00]

Defenseless, I don't think you mean that word.
Maybe you meant unarmed?

I remind you that Battlestar died to a "defenseless" "unarmed" woman.
The dead dude had the same strength as Karli.
He may have been wounded, but he was far from defenseless.

The point was Walker choose to execute that unarmed man. He shifted fighting styles on purpose, and the filmmakers literally did a horror shot where we see Walker raise the shield, we from the audience get a camera angle from a first person point of view of the unarmed man, triggering feelings of awe and horror...and the scene was over.

Cikomyr2 was right to call it an execution.

[Cikomyr2]

Defenseless, I don't think you mean that word.
Maybe you meant unarmed?

I remind you that Battlestar died to a "defenseless" "unarmed" woman.
The dead dude had the same strength as Karli.
He may have been wounded, but he was far from defenseless.

He was on the ground begging for his life man. ****ing hell is wrong with you.

Johnny Walker executed a surrendering opponent. That's a war crime. Done with Captain America's Shield.

[Starbuck_II]

He was on the ground begging for his life man. ****ing hell is wrong with you.

Johnny Walker executed a surrendering opponent. That's a war crime. Done with Captain America's Shield.

Back up, dude begged for life, but he never said, "I surrender"
We see this in films all the time. The hero lets his guard down after they "give up but not surrender" then the villian strikes.

So, not a war crime, just visually not inappropriate which is why he was punished.

Now, if it was reshot and someone added the ad lib, "I surrender" or "I will help take Karli down she has gone too far"
I would be right with you in charging war crime. But he didn't, he just didn't want to be hurt, he made no primises he would actually surrender or change his ways.
It is perfectly legal and acceptable to fire on a retreating enemy and it is a war crime to falsely surrender, also known as “perfidy".

[Clertar]

The equivalent scenario would be said officer pulling out a sword and trying to stab you while you were down. It's not exactly out of character for them to be that hot-headed, but, are they supposed to be bad guys? Walker killing a downed opponent was presented as crossing a line, and his motivation was waaaay less petty.

Also, the real problem with their actions is that they're soldiers on a mission. None of them keep an eye on their target.

Exactly, that is what would happen. But with a baton or a taser (swords are sadly not anymore standard-issue side arms), if not something else.

They don't attack Walker any more ruthlessly than they attack Bucky and the Falcon during that fight. Or do they?

Let's remember that this is a superhero show. As we have seen throughout the series and the MCU media, the type of violence displayed and the blows that non-superhuman fighters can withstand works in that genre's conventions. We should probably judge it more on John Wick standards rather than The Wire.

[Cikomyr2]

Back up, dude begged for life, but he never said, "I surrender"
We see this in films all the time. The hero lets his guard down after they "give up but not surrender" then the villian strikes.

So, not a war crime, just visually not inappropriate which is why he was punished.

Now, if it was reshot and someone added the ad lib, "I surrender" or "I will help take Karli down she has gone too far"
I would be right with you in charging war crime. But he didn't, he just didn't want to be hurt, he made no primises he would actually surrender or change his ways.
It is perfectly legal and acceptable to fire on a retreating enemy and it is a war crime to falsely surrender, also known as “perfidy".

Oh yhea. This is a perfect excuse for comitting war crimes. "He might have been faking it, so I killed him to make sure he didn't fake it".

[BRC]

Oh yhea. This is a perfect excuse for comitting war crimes. "He might have been faking it, so I killed him to make sure he didn't fake it".

The dude did not specifically say "I surrender" sure, but he was on the ground, begging for his life.

Maybe not a literal War Crime, although it's a bit tricky. The Flag Smasher was, by any reasonable metric, Armed and Dangerous, but at the same time, he was as disarmed and undangerous as he could make himself.


But, remember, they didn't make Walker Captain America because you are better able to fight America's enemies with a shield and some star-spangled spandex. They did it so he would be a propaganda figure, representing America. A Mascot as it were.


And, regardless of the facts of the situation, he killed a man begging for his life, in full view of the public. For somebody set up as America's Mascot, that's a disastrous mistake.

Of course, some would argue that Walker was given an impossible task, asked to be both secret agent and squeaky-clean Mascot, which isn't really something Steve Rogers ever pulled off.

Steve's Mascot days were during WWII, a very different time, and one with a very different apparatus behind him. He also started as a mascot before doing combat work, so it was easy to spin his combat work as propaganda. Since being unthawed, Steve Rogers worked as a SHIELD agent for a bit, but that was with the full support of SHIELD behind him, he was leading strike teams, not running around in public punching people. There was work done to insulate his SHIELD work from public view.


John Walker was given the shield and a costume, then just kind of pointed in the general direction of the Flag Smashers. He was never a Superhero, he was a Soldier. He had Battlestar as backup, and presumably some intel support, but it looks like he was just expected to...go out there, be a Superhero, and also make America/The GRC look good. I'd argue that he was held to a standard that Steve Rogers never actually set. Sent out into the world with minimal backup and told to "Make us Look Good".

Still, he did manage to fail in a truly spectacular way.

[Psyren]

Friendly reminder that Walker didn't just take this guy out or accidentally apply too much force. He pounded him into hamburger with the symbol of his country, fully intending to kill. I'd say it's on the nose, but the poor guy probably had no nose when Walker was done either.

Second, the line itself. The shield is a weapon, but far less lethal than the gun John still has and isn't mentioned. This isn't about disarming the man, it's about the larger narrative around the shield/legacy. Hence "You gotta give me that shield, man." Not even 'put it down,' but 'give it to me.' Come on, Sam, you know better than this. This is putting symbolism over character again!

Okay look - obviously there is a symbolism/legacy component to prioritizing recovery of the shield, but there is a practical aspect too. A vibranium alloy disc is actually far more capable of property destruction, especially in the hands of a super soldier. Consider that Steve used it to take down a harrier jet in Winter Soldier, or destroy hydraulic supports in Civil War to pin down Spiderman, among many other feats. You can't do those things with a pistol; considering the shield more dangerous is a logical conclusion to arrive at.

Bucky and Sam had no right to demand that. It's up to Walker's superiors to decide what to do once Walker reports back to base.

Realistically, who else was going to relieve the unstable super soldier of his extremely deadly weapon at that point? The Latvian police?

I'm not saying Sam and Bucky were totally in the right either, since they kept the shield secretly instead of returning it to their superiors (or at least Sam's superiors) immediately upon returning home - and boy I'm wondering how they were able to smuggle that thing through customs since they weren't using Zemo's private jet again - but getting it away from John as expediently as possible was still a defensible course of action.

I rewatched the scene and it looked pretty lethal to me (though they may have been going for the thrust-stop-when-it-hits-skin which occurs a lot in fiction and is a good way to kill someone who's moving around in a fight, but Bucky who is our best shot at knowing anything much about them assumes it's a lethal strike as he intervenes. Don't think it's solvable with the info we have).

I viewed it more as using the spear thrusts like they used the thrown ones, to pin the heroes to solid objects and stop their movement so they could forcibly apprehend Zemo. Again though, I agree the scene could have used some work to make the DM look less axe spear-crazy. They could have been unnecessarily brutal to John (prompting Sam to ask Bucky to intervene) without making the question of lethal force quite so ambiguous.

[hungrycrow]

Exactly, that is what would happen. But with a baton or a taser (swords are sadly not anymore standard-issue side arms), if not something else.

They don't attack Walker any more ruthlessly than they attack Bucky and the Falcon during that fight. Or do they?

Let's remember that this is a superhero show. As we have seen throughout the series and the MCU media, the type of violence displayed and the blows that non-superhuman fighters can withstand works in that genre's conventions. We should probably judge it more on John Wick standards rather than The Wire.

Fights in superhero show are assumed to be nonlethal until one of the combatants intends to go for the kill, even if they're using sharp weapons or superstrength. I'd argue that the framing of the shots right before Bucky and Sam jump in show the Dora Milaje going for the kill. They have Walker and Hoskins on the ground with spears pointed at them, emphasizing that neither can defend against the next attack. The Dora Milaje then rear back to stab extra hard before Bucky and Sam grab the spears. The attacks before that are "safe", which is why Bucky and Sam don't jump in immediately, and the attacks against Sam and Bucky are also "safe".

[Cikomyr2]

for the record: I 100% took the Dola Milaje as fighting to kill.


the Dola Milaje are trained killers. Nothing more, nothing less. Probably the best trained killers in the world. They don't mess around.

[Psyren]

for the record: I 100% took the Dola Milaje as fighting to kill.


the Dola Milaje are trained killers. Nothing more, nothing less. Probably the best trained killers in the world. They don't mess around.

If that were true though then they would have. Take the spear toss that pinned Walker to the table, you're telling me that was easier than just skewering him with it? Or was it blind luck? I don't buy either. They also had plenty of opportunity to kill Lemar before Bucky and Sam jumped in.

[Cikomyr2]

If that were true though then they would have. Take the spear toss that pinned Walker to the table, you're telling me that was easier than just skewering him with it? Or was it blind luck? I don't buy either. They also had plenty of opportunity to kill Lemar before Bucky and Sam jumped in.

the "Spear Toss" was intimidation. An opening move to show they weren't here to negotiate, just take what they wanted.

Once hostility started, as stated previously, Bucky and Sam only intervenes when the DM went for a killing blow. But the DM did not start hostility until after Walker tried to treat them like he was THE figure of authority in the room and tried to be patronizing. Basically he tried his "Captain America" social credit card and it was rejected.

For the record, again: the DM 100% escalated and acted like bully. And Walker also escalates and acts like a bully. The DM is meant to showcase how it looks like what it happens to YOU. "The superpower shows up and tell you what's going to happen, and won't tolerate disrespect".

[BRC]

for the record: I 100% took the Dola Milaje as fighting to kill.


the Dola Milaje are trained killers. Nothing more, nothing less. Probably the best trained killers in the world. They don't mess around.

I mean, from their perspective


Zemo is a mass-murderer and terrorist. Among his many crimes is the regicide of King T'Chaka of Wakanda.

The Dora Milaje arrive to recapture Zemo, and are stopped by John Walker and Battlestar, representatives of the GRC, sure, but it's not like Zemo is officially in their custody or anything. As far as the Dora Milaje can tell, they're just working with him.

What's more, they already played nice. They gave Bucky 8 hours to finish his work with Zemo and be prepared to hand him over.

They arrive, and is it not only clear that there is no intention to hand Zemo over to them, but John (armed, clearly equipped for battle, so who knows what he's got in that suit) approaches and tries to touch Ayo.

Responding with Deadly or Deadlyish force isn't that unreasonable in that scenario. The Dora Milaje are entirely within their right to arrest the fugitive who is standing right there drinking whiskey. These men indicate that they are not going to allow that to happen, and one of them takes an aggressive action. Sure, it's not super diplomatic, but the Dora Milaje are not diplomats.

Like, it's easy to see the Dora Milaje as being aggressive here (And they were), but from their perspective the two sides were "Arrest the terrorist mass-murder" and "Let the Terrorist Mass-Murder keep doing stuff".

[Ramza00]

the "Spear Toss" was intimidation. An opening move to show they weren't here to negotiate, just take what they wanted.

Once hostility started, as stated previously, Bucky and Sam only intervenes when the DM went for a killing blow. But the DM did not escalate until after Walker tried to treat them like he was THE figure of authority in the room.

For the record, again: the DM 100% escalated and acted like bully. And Walker also escalates and acts like a bully. The DM is meant to showcase how it looks like what it happens to YOU. "The superpower shows up and tell you what's going to happen, and won't tolerate disrespect".

The bolded and underlined part I do not agree with. It is ambiguity though and I admit that. (I will respond with more detail later) and it was ambiguity that caused the escalation again and again for John Walker could not read the room and not understand do not touch another person when you do not understand their customs. Putting your hand on the shoulders of a stranger does not calm them down like they are your friends at the bar, no if a stranger did that too me there would be a re-establishing of boundaries even if doing so is painful for them and painful for me.

-----

Will respond more later but I think that scene is more about Reputation. There were 3 groups with different status and thus you have a dialogue between honor and shame even if 2 of the 3 groups did not understand what is happening. Now when I say 2 of the 3, Bucky and Sam "kind of got it" but also did not get it and that is why we got Ayo saying "God Damn You" James, with the god being invoked being the Cat Goddess Bast. "Bast Damn You James."

Everything about the fight makes sense if you see it as a miscommunication. The DM was acting in a rational way if you buy in a cultural way to dispel disputes, reputation, shame, honor is how people cooperate between strangers if the strangers can admit the other groups have legitimacy and thus claims in the dispute. The concept of Hegemony is anti-thetical to this ideal though. Hegemony leads to Hierarchy instead of cooperation between roughly equal partners.

[Psyren]

the "Spear Toss" was intimidation. An opening move to show they weren't here to negotiate, just take what they wanted.

Not that one (0:05). I specifically (and repeatedly) referenced the very precise throw at John Walker than pinned him to the table (1:44).

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But that initial one you're talking about further reinforces my point. It wasn't just for intimidation - they immediately use it as an environmental hazard by caroming him off the haft as they begin their attack (0:52). That first toss illustrates not just their precision, but their tactical foresight.

Once hostility started, as stated previously, Bucky and Sam only intervenes when the DM went for a killing blow.

Sam was actually trying to get Bucky involved before they thrusted - and again, given their precision and control, I don't think they were actually going for a killing blow. I agree that the framing of the scene does not make it 100% cut and dry though.

[ecarden]

Okay look - obviously there is a symbolism/legacy component to prioritizing recovery of the shield, but there is a practical aspect too. A vibranium alloy disc is actually far more capable of property destruction, especially in the hands of a super soldier. Consider that Steve used it to take down a harrier jet in Winter Soldier, or destroy hydraulic supports in Civil War to pin down Spiderman, among many other feats. You can't do those things with a pistol; considering the shield more dangerous is a logical conclusion to arrive at.

Except that's not a threat at this moment. They're in an empty warehouse, trying to talk him down. The shield is not the issue. Or shouldn't be for Sam. It probably should for Bucky, but that's not how it's played out. The threat is to them and the gun is actually more dangerous, which is why it gets removed from the fight almost instantly.

I viewed it more as using the spear thrusts like they used the thrown ones, to pin the heroes to solid objects and stop their movement so they could forcibly apprehend Zemo. Again though, I agree the scene could have used some work to make the DM look less axe spear-crazy. They could have been unnecessarily brutal to John (prompting Sam to ask Bucky to intervene) without making the question of lethal force quite so ambiguous.

This, plus the argument below about the tossed spears is probably the best argument for them not intending to kill. But two points:

1) Despite what I say above, even in the MCU, not intending to kill does not mean you won't, especially if your blood gets up, or you see your target slipping away (see Karli and Lemar).
2) The spears have blunt ends (and I think we saw in Black Panther some sort of taser thing?) if they want to go for nonlethal strikes, they can and it doesn't involve the pointy end.

Regarding the murder of Nico. There's a lot of talk about pleading for his life, or surrendering, but what actually happens is, he's knocked down, has his hands between him and John, but not (as far as I can tell, angle is a bit hard here) above his head and he yells, "It wasn't me. It wasn't me." And then John crushes him with the shield over and over and over again until he's dead. I think the authors went with a fairly deliberate ambiguity here because they want John to be in the wrong, but not irredeemable. And people are reading it clearly one way or another.

I think it was murder, but the show is trying to have it both ways on a lot of this stuff. Look how awesome the Dora Milaje are...but they lose Zemo and start a totally pointless fight. Look how good Sam is at nonviolent resolution of problems...but he literally always fails with any enemy. Look how much Bucky is recovering...only don't because he runs away from therapy and we skip over the discussion with the father of the man the Winter Soldier killed. Look how awesome and effective Zemo is...actually, that one is mostly not undercut by the show which is sort of depressing. But the larger attempt to have it both ways prompts a lot of fan fights and a lot of buzz, but not a lot of satisfaction, at least for me.

[ecarden]

Everything about the fight makes sense if you see it as a miscommunication. The DM was acting in a rational way if you buy in a cultural way to dispel disputes, reputation, shame, honor is how people cooperate between strangers if the strangers can admit the other groups have legitimacy and thus claims in the dispute. The concept of Hegemony is anti-thetical to this ideal though. Hegemony leads to Hierarchy instead of cooperation between roughly equal partners.

I agree with the first part of this, but I'm not sure how you square the second part with 'the DM have jurisdiction wherever the DM are.' That is a fairly clear statement of hegemony on their part.

But I do agree that viewing it as a conflict between two cultural norms is fine, but I want to emphasize that regardless of the rationality of the DM's response, one it is actually immoral to beat people up for that sort of norm violation and second they failed. They got so caught up in putting John/Lemar in their place (and oh boy does that have its own problems) that they lost Zemo.

[Cikomyr2]

The bolded and underlined part I do not agree with. It is ambiguity though and I admit that. (I will respond with more detail later) and it was ambiguity that caused the escalation again and again for John Walker could not read the room and not understand do not touch another person when you do not understand their customs. Putting your hand on the shoulders of a stranger does not calm them down like they are your friends at the bar, no if a stranger did that too me there would be a re-establishing of boundaries even if doing so is painful for them and painful for me.

-----

Will respond more later but I think that scene is more about Reputation. There were 3 groups with different status and thus you have a dialogue between honor and shame even if 2 of the 3 groups did not understand what is happening. Now when I say 2 of the 3, Bucky and Sam "kind of got it" but also did not get it and that is why we got Ayo saying "God Damn You" James, with the god being invoked being the Cat Goddess Bast. "Bast Damn You James."

Everything about the fight makes sense if you see it as a miscommunication. The DM was acting in a rational way if you buy in a cultural way to dispel disputes, reputation, shame, honor is how people cooperate between strangers if the strangers can admit the other groups have legitimacy and thus claims in the dispute. The concept of Hegemony is anti-thetical to this ideal though. Hegemony leads to Hierarchy instead of cooperation between roughly equal partners.

I think I just see it in term of power relationship, policing and racial dynamic.

I mean.. Just think of the themes of race, police, privilege and power being explored in this series, just while focusing on Sam Wilson and John Walker, and their own relationship with all of these elements with American's society.

Also, it's a rather telling move that Captain America's mission was more of policing and counter-terrorism than it was about fighting supervillains or foreign military. Because policing was one of the big theme of the series, and John Walker is a stand in for.. some bad things.

[Psyren]

Regarding the "fan fights" - those are my favorite part
If we didn't have any, it would mean Marvel wasn't being nearly as controversial/impactful as they could be.

Except that's not a threat at this moment.

How so? Walker has the shield, has just murdered someone with it, and is clearly unstable. How is he, and by extension the weapon he's using, not a threat at this moment?

They're in an empty warehouse, trying to talk him down. The shield is not the issue. Or shouldn't be for Sam. It probably should for Bucky, but that's not how it's played out. The threat is to them and the gun is actually more dangerous, which is why it gets removed from the fight almost instantly.

You're correct, they did try to talk him down, and failed. Part of that talking down included trying to get him to relinquish his superweapon willingly, and resorting to force when he refused.

I rewatched the fight and didn't see a gun at all, did Walker even still have it? I don't recall him having one in the brawl when Lemar dies either.

[ecarden]

How so? Walker has the shield, has just murdered someone with it, and is clearly unstable. How is he, and by extension the weapon he's using, not a threat at this moment?

Sorry, to be clear, there are no harrier jets or ability to cause massive property damage, which is where the shield might be superior to the gun. It's an empty warehouse with them in it. The threat is to them.

You're correct, they did try to talk him down, and failed. Part of that talking down included trying to get him to relinquish his superweapon willingly, and resorting to force when he refused.

I rewatched the fight and didn't see a gun at all, did Walker even still have it? I don't recall him having one in the brawl when Lemar dies either.

He does have a gun. At the 5 minute mark in the episode, as soon as the fight begins, Sam gets kicked away and Bucky grapples, pulling it out of John's holster and drops it when John hits him. Bucky prioritizes getting rid of the gun at the start of the fight, which makes the focus on the shield even more annoying to me.

I agree they need to disarm him at the end of talking him down. But the way this was done is awesome on a superficial level and character assassination of Sam on another. We need an awesome fight, so Sam, the veterans counselor decides the right thing to say within a minute of arriving is "you got to give me the shield, man." It's infuriating not because John isn't to blame for what happens, but because it entirely undermines Sam's skills. And I honestly don't understand why. They had Bucky right there, who has every reason in the world to just take the shield, or interfere with the attempted de-escalation, but I guess they didn't want the conflict? It's even weirder because they start out right. Sam starts by calling it a mistake, which it wasn't, but which can help de-escalate from murder and give him space to realize he needs to stand down. At the same time Bucky is doing push-back on John's justifications, but then it all goes to crap when Sam makes the demand...which is a big swing which fails utterly and undermines Sam's character because of how rare it is for him to have a chance to try to talk down an opponent. Failing isn't inherently bad, but this...this didn't work for me.

[Tyndmyr]

"The Shield"

It's.. not just a shield. The Shield; Captain America's Shield is.. it's like Excalibur. It's a symbol of everything Steve stood for, and what America should stand for. It's not a weapon; it's a promise of protection.

Sure, it's a symbol. But if you prioritize symbols over people, you're probably not a hero. Steve never did, after all. Doing this makes Falcon look less heroic than Steve, not as if he's the rightful heir.



As for the DM...I took them as not attempting to kill Falcon/Bucky. Presumably because of their relationship to Bucky. But being willing to kill Walker? Yeah, sure. He wasn't important to them. This also wasn't their objective, so they didn't *need* to kill him, but I saw them as being willing to if that's the way the fight went. They were approaching the whole situation forcefully, and in a manner that indicates they weren't really willing to take a no.

[Psyren]

Sorry, to be clear, there are no harrier jets or ability to cause massive property damage, which is where the shield might be superior to the gun. It's an empty warehouse with them in it. The threat is to them.

You know he wasn't planning to live in that warehouse right?

Walker is a supersoldier with the shield who has just been filmed committing an atrocity. There is no reason to leave him in possession of the US's single largest bounty of indestructible alien metal outside of Vision.

He does have a gun. At the 5 minute mark in the episode, as soon as the fight begins, Sam gets kicked away and Bucky grapples, pulling it out of John's holster and drops it when John hits him. Bucky prioritizes getting rid of the gun at the start of the fight, which makes the focus on the shield even more annoying to me.

I agree they need to disarm him at the end of talking him down. But the way this was done is awesome on a superficial level and character assassination of Sam on another. We need an awesome fight, so Sam, the veterans counselor decides the right thing to say within a minute of arriving is "you got to give me the shield, man." It's infuriating not because John isn't to blame for what happens, but because it entirely undermines Sam's skills. And I honestly don't understand why. They had Bucky right there, who has every reason in the world to just take the shield, or interfere with the attempted de-escalation, but I guess they didn't want the conflict? It's even weirder because they start out right. Sam starts by calling it a mistake, which it wasn't, but which can help de-escalate from murder and give him space to realize he needs to stand down. At the same time Bucky is doing push-back on John's justifications, but then it all goes to crap when Sam makes the demand...which is a big swing which fails utterly and undermines Sam's character because of how rare it is for him to have a chance to try to talk down an opponent. Failing isn't inherently bad, but this...this didn't work for me.

I don't think Sam can possibly be blamed for "You've gotta give me the shield man" setting John Walker into kill mode
As for Bucky, John already had his back up with the "I'm not like you" comment. (Yeah John, you're not - unlike Bucky, you chose to murder someone begging for their life.)

Neither of them could have predicted how pathological his identification with the mantle of his appointment had become.

[ecarden]

You know he wasn't planning to live in that warehouse right?

Walker is a supersoldier with the shield who has just been filmed committing an atrocity. There is no reason to leave him in possession of the US's single largest bounty of indestructible alien metal outside of Vision.

Right. They needed him to give it up before he left. Jumping right to disarm yourself is bad de-escalation. Now, good de-escalation is probably not entertaining television. I'm the furthest thing in the world from an expert on this, but from common sense and a bit of research the absolute last thing you do with someone who is under serious pressure is try to take away either a crutch or a defense. That's just going to end badly.

I don't think Sam can possibly be blamed for "You've gotta give me the shield man" setting John Walker into kill mode
As for Bucky, John already had his back up with the "I'm not like you" comment. (Yeah John, you're not - unlike Bucky, you chose to murder someone begging for their life.)

Neither of them could have predicted how pathological his identification with the mantle of his appointment had become.

I disagree intensely actually. This is the place to show Sam does actually understand John, even though they disagree. And even though John has committed a crime. Everything in Sam's training and experience makes him ideally suited for this conversation and this problem. A furious, trapped, violent veteran who has done something terrible, doesn't see a way out and is armed and dangerous? Whether it's John in this warehouse or someone in a house, or a bar, or an alley, this ought to be exactly in the center of what Sam can predict and handle. But even though they win the fight, the conversation is over in less than a minute and ends as badly as it possibly could have.

ETA: Or rather, you are correct that Sam can't be blamed for John's actions. John is responsible for his actions. However, Sam absolutely should be able to deal with this situation infinitely better than the show lets him. That's mostly because otherwise the show would be an hours long slow negotiation and discussion and de-escalation which would just be super bad television. But instead we get Sam, who was gone throughout the Blip is somehow able to correctly understand Karli (up until they're interrupted) but is absolutely clueless about John. I don't like that and, to me, it undercuts the character's competence. Just like the DM losing Zemo undercuts their competence. It's the replacement of other skills with an ability to commit violence and it undercuts them.