Overpowered prestige classes?

[blue_fenix]

Hi, I'd like to get some opinions on what some of the most overpowered / broken prestige classes are in 3.5, so I can ban them from an upcoming game where I won't have time to talk to the players about their characters before we start. I'm already considering throwing out Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Planar Shepard. What else do I need to be wary of?

[Pironious]

Not exactly a prestige class, but the feat "Vow of Poverty".

[RMS Oceanic]

As I understand it, Frenzied Beserker (Complete Warrior) is apparently very powerful.

[Pironious]

As I understand it, Frenzied Beserker (Complete Warrior) is apparently very powerful.

With the notable drawback of killing the other PCs.

[Nebo_]

Not exactly a prestige class, but the feat "Vow of Poverty".

Haha! VoP is weaksauce unless you're playing a druid.

Beware of the Incantatrix.

[CthulhuM]

Abjurant Champion is arguably overpowered, although it has the disadvantage of requiring both caster and melee levels to get into it.

Shadowcraft mages and Hulking Hurlers are also usually broken.

Really, almost any prestige class that gives full casting progression without requiring a player to give up something significant in return (like taking a couple crappy feats, or losing good saves or secondary features of their primary class, or preferably some combination of the above).

You might also just not allow people to take prestige classes from Eberron/Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms books without clearing them with you, since those books are, on average, significantly less balanced than the standard non-setting-specific books.

[OneWinged4ngel]

The Planar Shepherd easily takes its place as one of the most broken PrCs in D&D. It's the lazy man's road to Pun Pun level power. Just by virtue of taking the prestige class in the "as intended" way and progressing in it normally, you attain ultimate potential. No optimization skill required. How something like that got printed is beyond me.

Not exactly a prestige class, but the feat "Vow of Poverty".

Not only off-topic but not particularly true. Don't underestimate just how great equipment is. Equipment is pretty darn great. Yes, even for monks and the like. I find the feat more annoying than broken.

As I understand it, Frenzied Beserker (Complete Warrior) is apparently very powerful.

If your definition of "very powerful" is "does way more damage than he ever needs to in order to eliminate enemies, and poses a rather large disadvantage to a party, while suffering from most of the failings of run-of-the-mill melee classes that can prevent them from landing an effective blow" then sure. Remember, though, that if an enemy has 500 hp, doing more than 500 hp of damage isn't going to actually help you at all, and that thousands of damage won't do any good at all if you can't land a hit. And that "efficiently and reliably dispatches enemies in a variety of situations with a minimal expenditure of resources" is a far better definition of very powerful. Blargh. Anyways, still a very problematic class to allow into a game, even if it's not all too hard to defeat.

[Pironious]

Haha! VoP is weaksauce unless you're playing a druid.

Or a monk(you CAN make ones that don't suck). Or a sorcerer. Anything that can get by with only simple weapons and has armour restrictions benefits ridiculously from VoP. Wizard is an exception because they need a spellbook.

[Swooper]

Ur-Priest is pretty broken imo, it's way too easy to take one level in it and then go for another fullcasting PrC. Same deal with Beholder Mage, but without Polymorph Any Object cheese, it's not accessible to PCs.

[The_Snark]

Really, almost any prestige class that gives full casting progression without requiring a player to give up something significant in return (like taking a couple crappy feats, or losing good saves or secondary features of their primary class, or preferably some combination of the above).

Agreed. Something-for-nothing classes are generally at least somewhat overpowered even if they aren't broken. Since casters have very few class features, they generally stand to lose less than other characters. (You'll never see a prestige class that grants full fighter bonus feats or sneak attack, 8 skill points, and other rogue special abilities, but full casting prestige classes are common.) See mild tangent below.

You might also just not allow people to take prestige classes from Eberron/Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms books without clearing them with you, since those books are, on average, significantly less balanced than the standard non-setting-specific books.

I'm not sure about the other two (and I know Forgotten Realms has produced some bad ones), but most Ebberon prestige classes aren't all that strong, with the notable exception of the Planar Shepherd. But really, any prestige class should have to be cleared, even if the answer is usually "sure".

Tangent:

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Obviously, caster prestige classes need to take away something in exchange for cool abilities. Losing more than one caster level is generally pretty harsh; unless it grant something good, it's normally not worth it. One caster level lost right at the start is generally a good balancing factor, and recently, a lot of classes work that way (Malconvoker, Nightmare Spinner; Unseen Seer and Spellwarp Sniper almost necessitate multiclassing, so they effectively have a lost caster level.)

The Initiate of the Unseen Veil is the worst offender here; it gives very powerful defensive abilities (with defense being of concern to fragile wizards) in exchange for... familiar progression. And three feats, two of which are prerequisites for the also-good Archmage (but note that the archmage requires you to give up spell slots, making it less of a something-for-nothing).

Oddly, one of the best-balanced arcane prestige classes (in my opinion) is a something-for-nothing: the alienist. It progresses familiar abilities (and gives new ones), and gives bonus feats. Prerequisites aren't too annoying since you're probably playing a summoner anyway.

What makes it balanced is that its class features (while very flavorful and generally useful) also have a bit of a drawback to them. Summoning pseudonatural creatures is awesome, but it means you can't summon demons and elementals anymore, limiting your summoning options. Bonuses to saves and HP come at the expense of your sanity.

It might just be that I like the class's idea, but it's always been one of my favorites.

Edit- If any of your PCs ever, ever asks to play a beholder mage...

[Lupus Major]

Dweomer Cheater, pardon, Keeper. (CD Web Enhancement)

Also, the Dervish is broken in the context of fighter prestige classes. (Not only broken but also absurd. All those dancing and grooving fighters suck.)

I haven't seen it in action, but ToB's Eternal Blade looks pretty cracked to me.

The Deepwarden isn't exactly broken but badly designed. After 2 levels you have everything the class is worth taking for. So if you want people to stick with one prestige class until it's finished, you might consider tweaking it.

[Gitman00]

Really, almost any prestige class that gives full casting progression without requiring a player to give up something significant in return (like taking a couple crappy feats, or losing good saves or secondary features of their primary class, or preferably some combination of the above).

QFT. Eldritch Knight is the first that springs to mind, although it's not the worst.

[Kurald Galain]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Cheese.

I think most of the prestige classes that give you high-level spells (e.g. Nar Demonbinder, Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest and so forth) are rather open to abuse for that reason.

Ur-Priest is just silly from the flavor alone - if you were a god, would you let your power be siphoned off by some weak unbelieving mortal?

[Pironious]

Ur-Priest is just silly from the flavor alone - if you were a god, would you let your power be siphoned off by some weak unbelieving mortal?

But mere mortals are exceptionally gifted at doing it without the gods noticing. Because... uh... gods... are... uh...

[Kantolin]

Or a monk(you CAN make ones that don't suck). Or a sorcerer. Anything that can get by with only simple weapons and has armour restrictions benefits ridiculously from VoP. Wizard is an exception because they need a spellbook.

Er. Vow of Poverty's bonuses are easily (more easily) duplicated and exceeded with magical items. This includes monks and sorcerors. The major reasons Druids can get away with it is because wild shape is powerful enough to make up for things; but even they can get use out of magical items.

Assuming your game's on wealth-by-level, the only time a VoP unit is comparable/superior to a non-VoP unit is when you've been stripped naked and are in jail.

Edit: Oh, and:

Ur-Priest is just silly from the flavor alone - if you were a god, would you let your power be siphoned off by some weak unbelieving mortal?

You know, that happened to the greek gods all the time - all the time. What, didn't some random guy walk into Olympus, grab fire, and spread it throughout the entire world before any of the gods noticed? ^_^

[Goumindong]

Any wizard, or sorcerer, cleric, or druid prestige classes excepting the mystic theruge that dont lose any casterlevels.

In short. If a full caster doesnt lose caster levels, its broken.

[Tengu]

^^^
Agreed with Kantolin up there.
With Goumindong too, though classes that require you to take non-caster levels also qualify as non-overpowered (Arcane Trickster, for example).

QFT. Eldritch Knight is the first that springs to mind, although it's not the worst.

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Sorry, but no. Eldritch Knight requires you to gain 1 level in a non-casting class (or the Militia regional feat if you play FR, but you can take it only at first level) and you don't gain a caster level at the first class level. And everything you gain if you're a caster wizard is a slightly higher hit die and higher BAB, which is almost useless for a caster anyway. It's underpowered if anything. The class is made for gishes, who are weaker (aka - non-cheesy) than pure casters.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Any wizard, or sorcerer, cleric, or druid prestige classes excepting the mystic theruge that dont lose any casterlevels.

In short. If a full caster doesnt lose caster levels, its broken.

Mystic Theurge actually isn't an exception to the rule, for you see, he DOES lose caster levels. Just not in his actual PrC casting progression.

[Goumindong]

Mystic Theurge actually isn't an exception to the rule, for you see, he DOES lose caster levels. Just not in his actual PrC casting progression.

Yea, i forgot about the arcane trickster as well.

Eldrich Knight i dont like as a PRC because i think it does the Gish thing better than a Duskblade[albiet a bit later], and that is my baseline. On the other side, it does lose 2 caster levels or get the quickcast/touch spell attack actions like the duskblade does, so its a tossup.

[sun_tzu]

You know, that happened to the greek gods all the time - all the time. What, didn't some random guy walk into Olympus, grab fire, and spread it throughout the entire world before any of the gods noticed? ^_^

I don't think Prometheus really counts as a "random guy", what with being a titan and all.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Yea, i forgot about the arcane trickster as well.

Eldrich Knight i dont like as a PRC because i think it does the Gish thing better than a Duskblade[albiet a bit later], and that is my baseline. On the other side, it does lose 2 caster levels or get the quickcast/touch spell attack actions like the duskblade does, so its a tossup.

Duskblade/A Real Caster does gish better than Duskblade too, IIRC. Heh.

[Telonius]

Radiant Servant of Pelor is pretty high on the PrC power scale.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Ultimate Magus combined with Nar Demonbinder pretty easy to enter FRCS ( Sublime Chord a little harder) to fuel quickened meta. A great deal more meta than a comparable level caster.

[Kurald Galain]

You know, that happened to the greek gods all the time - all the time. What, didn't some random guy walk into Olympus, grab fire, and spread it throughout the entire world before any of the gods noticed? ^_^

Need I tell you what happened to him?

[Riffington]

Need I tell you what happened to him?

RIAA sued him?

[Darrin]

I haven't seen it in action, but ToB's Eternal Blade looks pretty cracked to me.

Eternal Blade is meh. The only ToB PrC you need to watch out for is Ruby Knight Vindicator. Spending a turn attempt to recover a maneuver or get a swift action can lead to some very broken things.

[Swooper]

Ur-Priest is just silly from the flavor alone - if you were a god, would you let your power be siphoned off by some weak unbelieving mortal?

Agreed - any god who let's his power be stolen by a mortal deserves to have it stolen, for he is a wuss!

The trick with balancing caster PrCs is to make them give up something, but it can't be too much, because then they won't bother with the class and just stick with their base class. If I were a wizard, I'd rather keep being a wizard than take a PrC that loses me a CL, or access to a school of magic, or something like that. Unless the benefits of that PrC were enough to make up for it, which they normally aren't. The problem with wizards is that they don't HAVE anything you can take away except spellcasting ability... You can't take away their armour, their BAB, their skill points or their HP, for they don't have any of that. I guess you can take away some class skills, their familiar or their bonus feats - and most existing fullcasting PrCs do some or all of those. However, that's not enough to balance most of them, so the solution is usually to make them require a couple of sucky feats like the MotAO does.

Did that make any sense?

[Duke of URL]

I'd vote for Incantatrix and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil as overpowered -- other than requiring picking up a feat or two that you otherwise would not need, there seems to be virtually no reason to not take one of these classes once you qualify for them; and that spells "overpowered" to me.

[daggaz]

You know, that happened to the greek gods all the time - all the time. What, didn't some random guy walk into Olympus, grab fire, and spread it throughout the entire world before any of the gods noticed? ^_^

Prometheus was a Titan. A Titan! Not any mere mortal. The titans were so powerful, all the gods had to team up to imprison them, and the process helped create the earth as we know it today.

[Not Dice]

Blue Fenix, there is no such thing as a broken PrC. No matter how much damage the class does or what its effects are, you have the ultimate balancing factor as a GM:

If the PCs can do it, so can the bad guys.

And-

What the GM says, goes.


Instead of banning PrCs, just allow the players to play what they want and balance the encounters against them accordingly. They have a Leaping Charging Power Attacking Two-Handed fighter doing 500+ points of damage per hit? So does their first main encounter, and guaranteed none of the PCs have 500 HP or enough DR to handle it. TPK? Oh well, they have to live with the balance they created for themselves.