Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings

[ideasmith]

Logically, it is a really really dumb idea to put women in harms way.

A lot of cultures did things you consider really dumb. This definitely includes putting women in harms way. That this has mostly been less flashy forms of harms way which did not involve weaponry is irrelevant. Dead is dead.

[Yora]

Would be really dumb of a population to not make use of any available resources that can contribute to the support and defense of the group.
What good is the chance to maybe have some additional working members of the group in 10-15 years when you all starved before that?

[Satinavian]

We also do know that women switched from band to band far more often then men which makes this whole "hard to replace and needed for the next generation" even more questionable.

[Theoboldi]

We also do know that women switched from band to band far more often then men which makes this whole "hard to replace and needed for the next generation" even more questionable.

So, not saying that I disagree with your conclusions because I don't, but you should really provide some evidence or at least state where you got the information for claims like these.

Not everyone has read deeply on every topic, nor are they aware of all sources or developments on all fields. And expecting them to do the research on your claim is counterintuitive when you're trying to convince them.

[Satinavian]

Don't really feel like looking for the articles again, but the ghist is that after they investigated mitochondrial DNA which is purely matrilineal and compared with samples of regular one they noticed very different speeds of mutation spread which sparked that as hypothesis and it was later confirmed by investigation mutation spread on Y chromosomes.

Of course there was also evaluation of relationships of corpses found together but finds like that are a bit too rare for that period to give a complete picture.

[Friv]

@Max_Killjoy: I really appreciate your point about moving goalposts, but at the same time you make it sound like an entire academic field was involved in some kind of misogynistic cover-up operation and there were no reasonable arguments for caution in interpreting those grave goods. I think that takes just criticism too far.

It's less about a vast conspiracy, and more that no academic field is immune to the perils of being human.

More precisely, when people have already developed a theory, we have a really bad habit of altering evidence to fit the theory instead of altering theories to fit the evidence. It's very common, and the more you know about a field, the more common it gets. There's a reason that shifts in how we think about things are often generational.

The original theories were built in part on how the societies building those theories operated. Men fought, so graves with weapons belonged to men. Then historical models of societies were built around that idea. Then someone discovers that one of these graves didn't belong to a man. While it would certainly be rational to say, "Oh, wait, that was a foundation of the original theory, maybe we need to go back and revisit" it's much more human to say, "Oh, how does this evidence fit our existing historical model? Ceremonial weapons, of course, makes perfect sense."

You'll see this with a lot of things - archaeology, anthropology, sociology, biology - hell, it happened to mathematics and physics more than once. It's happened to me when I play mystery video games, in which I should literally be trying to build new models with each piece of evidence. It's very natural for people to get hung up on the theories they already believe, and it doesn't take a vast or deliberate conspiracy to do it.

[Calthropstu]

Would be really dumb of a population to not make use of any available resources that can contribute to the support and defense of the group.
What good is the chance to maybe have some additional working members of the group in 10-15 years when you all starved before that?

Fair. However, consider wolves and other predatory and omnivorous primates, who act closer to us than say cats or bears.

In a pack, females do, in fact, hunt. But they are given far less dangerous roles. For instance, a female wolf will run on the sides and front, herding and preventing escape while the males give chase and go in for attacks. It is always males that go in for kills, usually after a long harrowing run to force the prey to exhaustion. This isn't malicious, but self preservation. It is much easier, and far less dangerous, to kill an exhausted elk. Males then go in to finish it, and during that time the elk will thrash about. Females stay away to avoid being injured.

Whereas a group of primates, participating females will throw rocks and other objects from afar. Once again, it is males that deliver killing blows, while females avoid danger. Early hunting parties likely followed similar strategies. As households and population grew, it was no longer needed for women to be on the front and it likely eventually stopped altogether.

It's not that women couldn't hunt, it was just better not to. Nowadays, humanity is pretty much invulnerable to anything except humanity, natural disasters and possibly aliens. Animals can't attack in meaningful numbers. And hunting with guns makes the danger negligible. So there's no reason for women not to.

[Cluedrew]

I did some poking around and found: male chimpanzees don't use weapons but females do? That's weird you'd think that after someone figured out weapons it would spread around but apparently the menfolk are to macho for that or something? I don't know, haven't looked far enough to determine for sure its actually true.

Anyways, this is all very interesting but unless you are playing a really realistic game where the PCs are also chimpanzees I don't see how this relates to "Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings".

[Calthropstu]

I did some poking around and found: male chimpanzees don't use weapons but females do? That's weird you'd think that after someone figured out weapons it would spread around but apparently the menfolk are to macho for that or something? I don't know, haven't looked far enough to determine for sure its actually true.

Anyways, this is all very interesting but unless you are playing a really realistic game where the PCs are also chimpanzees I don't see how this relates to "Gender and sexuality diversity in RPG settings".

The argument diverged from statements regarding ancient hunting methodology. Which invited other stuff. It looks like it got way off target, but it's kinda connected.

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[Yora]

Well, you're free to not engage in this discussion if you find it superfluous.

The creator of this thread wisely put "RPG settings" into the title. The cultures of a game are a part of the setting, generally not the rules. Unless you have a rules system tailored specifically to enforce one specific setting, like Saga of the Icelanders. A pretty fascinating game that has several social mechanics unique to men and women, which are intended to make players engage with the gender roles of 10th century Iceland.

[Calthropstu]

Well, you're free to not engage in this discussion if you find it superfluous.

The creator of this thread wisely put "RPG settings" into the title. The cultures of a game are a part of the setting, generally not the rules. Unless you have a rules system tailored specifically to enforce one specific setting, like Saga of the Icelanders. A pretty fascinating game that has several social mechanics unique to men and women, which are intended to make players engage with the gender roles of 10th century Iceland.

True enough. If you specifically tailor a game setting to such, it's reasonable enough. My point was more towards trying to build rules, and I stated such previously, suggesting that this kind of thing be done in a supplement. An optional setting supplement sounds like a reasonable way to explore this kind of thing. But bogging down the core rulebook with it when it's really not what most people playing a game are looking for will hurt overall siales.

[KaussH]

True enough. If you specifically tailor a game setting to such, it's reasonable enough. My point was more towards trying to build rules, and I stated such previously, suggesting that this kind of thing be done in a supplement. An optional setting supplement sounds like a reasonable way to explore this kind of thing. But bogging down the core rulebook with it when it's really not what most people playing a game are looking for will hurt overall siales.

Gender and sexuality issues are pretty important to a setting. The reason why it seems so uncommon is a LOT of games just present all races and cultures as heteronormative with mono as the default relationship structure. So they dont have to do the "extra" work. I think more games should have this kind of stuff in the core rules. If your game does food and dress and the like for races and the like, it should have some gender details as well.

[Calthropstu]

Gender and sexuality issues are pretty important to a setting. The reason why it seems so uncommon is a LOT of games just present all races and cultures as heteronormative with mono as the default relationship structure. So they dont have to do the "extra" work. I think more games should have this kind of stuff in the core rules. If your game does food and dress and the like for races and the like, it should have some gender details as well.

Actually, I don't really see much of "how to dress" in most core rulebooks. I mean, pf and d&d just have peasant clothes, robes and armor and that's pretty much it. Most clothing is mentioned in setting supplements. Same for gurps iirc. Some are even so generic they can be completely different from person to person and give the same benefits. For example "cold weather gear" can be bundles of wolf pelts or a parka. These are completely different things.

Similarly, races need stats and basic elements, but having them vary from setting to setting is better kept for setting supplements. In gender and sexuality, elves in world a can be "extremely promiscuous and very open minded, these elves often take lovers of multiple races and genders" while on world b "these elves are quite reserved and standoffish. They close their borders to all except dignitaries from nations of ostensible allies. As such, half rlves are exceedingly rare and are often outcast." Again, this kind of information is best left to supplements, and those wanting such information or incorporate it into gheir games can.

The "extra" work is quite literally just that. There really is zeroneed for it in most games.

[KaussH]

Actually, I don't really see much of "how to dress" in most core rulebooks. I mean, pf and d&d just have peasant clothes, robes and armor and that's pretty much it. Most clothing is mentioned in setting supplements. Same for gurps iirc. Some are even so generic they can be completely different from person to person and give the same benefits. For example "cold weather gear" can be bundles of wolf pelts or a parka. These are completely different things.

Similarly, races need stats and basic elements, but having them vary from setting to setting is better kept for setting supplements. In gender and sexuality, elves in world a can be "extremely promiscuous and very open minded, these elves often take lovers of multiple races and genders" while on world b "these elves are quite reserved and standoffish. They close their borders to all except dignitaries from nations of ostensible allies. As such, half rlves are exceedingly rare and are often outcast." Again, this kind of information is best left to supplements, and those wanting such information or incorporate it into gheir games can.

The "extra" work is quite literally just that. There really is zeroneed for it in most games.

If the core rules are setting less like gurps or fate, that's fine. However a lot of game have a default setting, and sometimes (often) the default has a lot of presumptions built into it, that could and should be fixed with a few words.

[Cluedrew]

A pretty fascinating game that has several social mechanics unique to men and women, which are intended to make players engage with the gender roles of 10th century Iceland.

I am suddenly very interested in this game. I think that is something that is really undervalued in systems is to pitch something unique. Before I read Blades in the Dark I never would have said "I want to play a game about thieves set in a haunted city." but now I want to.

Actually, I don't really see much of "how to dress" in most core rulebooks. I mean, pf and d&d just have peasant clothes, robes and armor and that's pretty much it.

What other systems have you played? I mean GURPS (along with such systems as Fudge) isn't really a system so much as a system toolbox (a toolbox system if you will) so yes, they don't have a lot of setting info in them. D&D's world building is... on the generic side, except for the meta-settings for some reason. The last two systems I've read were Lancer (not much about civilian clothing but lots of pictures with a consistent theme for combat gear) and Blades in the Dark (explicitly talks about clothing and accessories on several occasions) so systems that talk about it do exist.

For me that space between a specialty system and a toolbox system - the generic system - is very hard to make work. They don't have the hook of a specialty system nor the flexibility of a toolbox system. The half way space doesn't work for me. Maybe a particular pitch will not click with me and I won't play it. But you know what is definitely not going to grab my attention: A generic space I've seen countless times before. And of course I can easily make an adjustment or two to lore if I have to.

So what I'm saying is: I think there is a place for systems that do talk about gender, sexuality, clothing, food, daily-habits and holidays. Don't just build a rules-system, build a world for me.

[Calthropstu]

I am suddenly very interested in this game. I think that is something that is really undervalued in systems is to pitch something unique. Before I read Blades in the Dark I never would have said "I want to play a game about thieves set in a haunted city." but now I want to.

What other systems have you played? I mean GURPS (along with such systems as Fudge) isn't really a system so much as a system toolbox (a toolbox system if you will) so yes, they don't have a lot of setting info in them. D&D's world building is... on the generic side, except for the meta-settings for some reason. The last two systems I've read were Lancer (not much about civilian clothing but lots of pictures with a consistent theme for combat gear) and Blades in the Dark (explicitly talks about clothing and accessories on several occasions) so systems that talk about it do exist.

For me that space between a specialty system and a toolbox system - the generic system - is very hard to make work. They don't have the hook of a specialty system nor the flexibility of a toolbox system. The half way space doesn't work for me. Maybe a particular pitch will not click with me and I won't play it. But you know what is definitely not going to grab my attention: A generic space I've seen countless times before. And of course I can easily make an adjustment or two to lore if I have to.

So what I'm saying is: I think there is a place for systems that do talk about gender, sexuality, clothing, food, daily-habits and holidays. Don't just build a rules-system, build a world for me.

I've played quite a few. Gurps, AD&D, AD&D2e, 3, 3.5, 4e, pathfinder, Men in Black, 3 different editions of Shadowrun, d20 modern, Star wars, BESM, Superhero games, Mage: the ascension, Vampire and werewolf, changeling, some pirate game that I forget thename to...

You want world building that needs to be done via stories, maps, and other setting specific stuff... NONE OF WHICH needs to be detailed in the rules. And since it doesn't need to be, and since they can make more money selling setting supplements, they sell setting supplements. And it's better that way for publishers. And since very few people care one way or another, particularly on this subject, and since doing it the way you suggest does not seem to generate much revenue (indeed eould generate less) you are stuck with doing it yourself or being at the mercy of the publishers.

[KaussH]

I've played quite a few. Gurps, AD&D, AD&D2e, 3, 3.5, 4e, pathfinder, Men in Black, 3 different editions of Shadowrun, d20 modern, Star wars, BESM, Superhero games, Mage: the ascension, Vampire and werewolf, changeling, some pirate game that I forget thename to...

You want world building that needs to be done via stories, maps, and other setting specific stuff... NONE OF WHICH needs to be detailed in the rules. And since it doesn't need to be, and since they can make more money selling setting supplements, they sell setting supplements. And it's better that way for publishers. And since very few people care one way or another, particularly on this subject, and since doing it the way you suggest does not seem to generate much revenue (indeed eould generate less) you are stuck with doing it yourself or being at the mercy of the publishers.

A Lot of the games you noted have built in world details and charicter details in the core books. Dnd has a little ( page or so per) shadowrun has bunches. White wolf stuff is full of it, as are most versions of star wars. Some are better and more detailed than others, and could stand a few lines on gender and relationships, but they do have cultural details.

[Yora]

I am suddenly very interested in this game. I think that is something that is really undervalued in systems is to pitch something unique. Before I read Blades in the Dark I never would have said "I want to play a game about thieves set in a haunted city." but now I want to.

In Saga of the Icelanders, the players play a family of farmers on Iceland (10th century or so), and most likely will get into some kind of feud with their neighbors. There are several roles in the family that players can choose, that all have their own social status and special abilities that reflect that status.
From what I remember, women can't go into battle (with one exception, I believe), but all female PCs have an ability to force their fathers, brothers, or sons to go fight for the family. (Which is somewhat of a theme in stories from that time, and not just Iceland.) It's a fascinating perspective on the role women played in violence and feuds, and the influence they held in society, even when limited by certain restrictions.

[Cluedrew]

You want world building that needs to be done via stories, maps, and other setting specific stuff... NONE OF WHICH needs to be detailed in the rules.

Define "the rules". Its not part of the core resolution system sure, but is the equipment section part of the rules because that definitely has setting specific information. How about the magic system; I think that is both, how many fictional (non-RPG) settings can you name that have the same magic system?

The rules and setting will always feed back into each other and I like it when they do so a lot as its the entire package that does it.

[Calthropstu]

Define "the rules". Its not part of the core resolution system sure, but is the equipment section part of the rules because that definitely has setting specific information. How about the magic system; I think that is both, how many fictional (non-RPG) settings can you name that have the same magic system?

The rules and setting will always feed back into each other and I like it when they do so a lot as its the entire package that does it.

I can name quite a few fictional settings that have the same or similar magic systems.

Dragonlance, greyhawk, ravenloft, forgotten realms, eberron, overlord, slayers and several others use similar magic systems outside of their rpg supplement books.

There are several more that borrow WOW style magic systems such as sword art online.

Many fictional settings borrow concepts of magic from frames of reference available based on popular themes currently available.

[Satinavian]

There are several more that borrow WOW style magic systems such as sword art online.

Just because it is an MMO-Isekai does not mean that it borrows WoW magic. In fact, the original SAO doesn't have any magic at all and the later ones do their own (ill defined) thing.

And the first is just a list of D&D settings. Of course if i build a setting with a magic system in mind, it will work with that magic system.

[Cluedrew]

To Satinavian: Funny story, no the D&D settings don't use the D&D magic system. I've read dozens of D&D books (Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance and Dark Sun) and in all of those stories I have found one explicit reference to spell slots or spell memorisation or any of the things D&D spell casters are supposed to use all the time. There was one instance of a pair of wizards running out of spells. Not a single instance of someone reaching a new spell level (unless you count "gets stronger), memorising a spell, not having the right spell prepared or even learning a spell from another spell caster's notes. That last one might be my memory failing me because its feels like it might of happened as a plot point just because its its own idea separate from D&D's rules. I can't say it never happened but I read the story of Elminster - if any story would make the magic system apparent it would be that - and I am drawing a blank. And I can think of different situations that would be... weird if it was using same rules as the game.

To Calthropstu: Let me clarify what I meant by RPG setting, roughly any of the following:

• A setting made to be used in an role-playing game/RPG (pen-and-paper, table-top or computer).
• The setting of a story set in an RPG, even if that RPG does not otherwise exist. This includes VR and many Isekai stories and "completely on the inside" stories like Order of the Stick.
• A setting that parodies either of the above two.

In addition they must actually define their magic systems so we can examine them and - for bonus points - if you can find stories/settings that are significantly different in other ways those would make for stronger examples.

Now I'm not saying there are no examples of this anywhere, but you might find that one magic system doesn't cover a lot of settings when you get down to it.

[Calthropstu]

Just because it is an MMO-Isekai does not mean that it borrows WoW magic. In fact, the original SAO doesn't have any magic at all and the later ones do their own (ill defined) thing.

And the first is just a list of D&D settings. Of course if i build a setting with a magic system in mind, it will work with that magic system.

Yes, but you asked for multiple settings using yhe same magic system outside of an rpg. So I gave you such settings. Overlord borrowed heavily from d&d to create its setting, as did slayers and goblin slayer. Several other settings did so as well. And it specifically mentioned wow-style cooldown periods in sao and mana iirc. And infinite dendrogram as well as log horizon also mention wow style magic systems.

However, most fantasy authors of published books do make magic work differently. Eddings had 3 different settings each with different magic. And don't get me started on the compleat enchanter. And piers anthony likewise had 2 different systems.

But consider this: even on a "this is the wotld" game with only 1 world, that wotld has multiple continents, multiple countries and setting details vary from continent and country no? Most of the rpgs I mentioned take place on earth so inherit the customs of the earth. It doesn't need mrntioning of gender foles because we know the gender roles... it's earth.

If you want to write an alternate version of future earth with amazon style wonen taking over the wotld government with men relegated to labor only roles and abandoned technology to save the world from climate change ghen by all means. I woildn't play that, but go for it.

Most rulebooks don't need to spell out gender roles. Setting books sometimes needs to. But I'll be honest... this won't go over very well anywhere.

[Friv]

How about the magic system; I think that is both, how many fictional (non-RPG) settings can you name that have the same magic system?

I can name quite a few fictional settings that have the same or similar magic systems.

Dragonlance, greyhawk, ravenloft, forgotten realms, eberron, overlord, slayers and several others use similar magic systems outside of their rpg supplement books.

There are several more that borrow WOW style magic systems such as sword art online.

At the risk of being pedantic, I'd point out that when asked to name non-RPG settings that have the same magic system, you named five D&D settings, one Japanese parody of a D&D setting, and one Japanese parody of online games inspired by D&D settings.

And even then, magic in Slayers is very different from magic in D&D. It requires calling upon spirits who have innate magical abilities, borrowing their power, and manifesting it in the world. As a result, it is very easy to learn to cast simple spells, so much so that non-mages can and routinely do learn simple spells, and powerful spells are marked primarily by being hard to control, rather than by being limited in how many can be cast per day. The categorizations of magic are based around what kind of spirit you summon, and there are no material components or foci required to invoke them.

I can't speak for magic in Overlord, but I suspect it's more different from D&D magic as well.

[Calthropstu]

At the risk of being pedantic, I'd point out that when asked to name non-RPG settings that have the same magic system, you named five D&D settings, one Japanese parody of a D&D setting, and one Japanese parody of online games inspired by D&D settings.

And even then, magic in Slayers is very different from magic in D&D. It requires calling upon spirits who have innate magical abilities, borrowing their power, and manifesting it in the world. As a result, it is very easy to learn to cast simple spells, so much so that non-mages can and routinely do learn simple spells, and powerful spells are marked primarily by being hard to control, rather than by being limited in how many can be cast per day. The categorizations of magic are based around what kind of spirit you summon, and there are no material components or foci required to invoke them.

I can't speak for magic in Overlord, but I suspect it's more different from D&D magic as well.

D&D inspired dozens of settings, some even got incorporated into it. If you want one that's surefire not an rpg, look no further than this very website. And yes, the source of magic is different in slayers, but the basic casting is very similar.

I could be pedantic and point out that dragonlance et al are not themselves rpgs, and are thus "sources of settings with similar magic systems that are not rpgs." But let me reiterate: it doesn't matter. Magic is very much needed to perform functions in the game. How does magic work? What does it allow me to do? Since each game and setting can have different variations, that is absolutely needed.

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[JNAProductions]

D&D inspired dozens of settings, some even got incorporated into it. If you want one that's surefire not an rpg, look no further than this very website. And yes, the source of magic is different in slayers, but the basic casting is very similar.

I could be pedantic and point out that dragonlance et al are not themselves rpgs, and are thus "sources of settings with similar magic systems that are not rpgs." But let me reiterate: it doesn't matter. Magic is very much needed to perform functions in the game. How does magic work? What does it allow me to do? Since each game and setting can have different variations, that is absolutely needed.

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There's a lot more to gender than genitals.

And I'm perfectly willing to say that a setting and/or RPG that explores gender and sexuality isn't for everyone. Not everyone is mature enough to handle it well, and even for those who are, they might not want to explore those themes. But from what you posted, you don't come off as mature enough to handle it-exploring how, for instance, trans people would be like in a world with sex-changing magic isn't something teenagers laugh at.

Also, why can't children handle gender diversity? What's wrong with, for instance, playing a PC who's next in line to be the king, but is a transgender woman who would therefore be ineligible for the throne (in her home kingdom) without some changes being made? That PC has an interesting backstory with a built-in adventure hook.

[Cluedrew]

To Calthropstu: You do realize we are* talking about putting a few lines in the culture section about confirming queer people exist and their current status in society? No completely redefining what the genders are.

I think the most explicit information I've ever seen about it is - in Eclipse Phase where you swap bodies/cases like clothing - there is a note in one of the biological agender cases is used by some people to raise their children to avoid biasing them. That's all I've found, its adding colour to the world and not getting in the way of the crunchy rules.

* I am, I realise other people might be shooting higher.

Also Order of the Stick is an role-playing game setting, its set inside a world that operates by Dungeons and Dragons rules. I think we have mostly moved past that by now.

[Calthropstu]

To Calthropstu: You do realize we are* talking about putting a few lines in the culture section about confirming queer people exist and their current status in society? No completely redefining what the genders are.

I think the most explicit information I've ever seen about it is - in Eclipse Phase where you swap bodies/cases like clothing - there is a note in one of the biological agender cases is used by some people to raise their children to avoid biasing them. That's all I've found, its adding colour to the world and not getting in the way of the crunchy rules.

* I am, I realise other people might be shooting higher.

Also Order of the Stick is an role-playing game setting, its set inside a world that operates by Dungeons and Dragons rules. I think we have mostly moved past that by now.

Those lines already exist. It goes something along the lines of this: You can make be either male or female and can act in any manner you so choose.

So if you want to be a woman who feels she's actually a man? You can! You want to be robot with gender YOU CAN. I can't think of ANY game that puts a restriction on this. But that's not what you're looking for is it. Yeah, think I'm done talking this over with you guys. Your idea serves no purpose, and we're going in circles.

So whatevs.

[Talakeal]

The same cannot be said for gender. Do we really need to ask "Do I have a penis? How does it work? What does it allow me to do?" I think not. And seeing how children play rpgs, any rpg that goes into that kind of detail will be quickly put on the "nope" shelf.

The more I look at this thread, the more convinced I am that this is a really really dumb idea except as a joke game. I can see a group of teenagers playing a few sessions laughing horrendously at the game and then never touching it again. This is the kind of game idea that is a novelty, gets a few hundred published and is forgotten. Probably end up costing more money than it makes.

How does D&D measure up to these standards?

You can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your character does or does not conform to the broader culture’s expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior. For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface.
You don’t need to be confined to binary notions of sex and gender. The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon’s image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character’s sexual orientation is for you to decide.

[Friv]

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