Max Level for Kobold fighting?

[Darkxarth]

I am currently away from my books, so I don't have CR and ECL tables to cross-reference.

My question is, what would be the max level that PCs could fight between 16 and 32 Kobolds and still get decent experience points? Three? Four? Five? Kobolds are only a 1/4 CR, so I don't imagine the PC level could be very high for them to still get decent experience.

The reason I ask is because I'm designing a small Kobold dungeon that is set up to test the PCs planning, strategy, and luck. If they are very careful about how they do things, the dungeon will be absolutely no problem. However, if they get rash and try and 'wing it' they are likely to end up as Kobold Snacks.

For those of you who have been in the online RPG community and still haven't seen this, Tucker's Kobolds is my inspiration.

And before anyone gets upset that I'm "trying to kill my PCs" or I'm "playing D&D the wrong way" please know that my players are going to be fully aware of the depth and danger of this adventure, and they will be designing appropriate (and hopefully not broken) characters.

[Kaelik]

No level is too high for Kobolds. The most important thing to do is class level them. Some can be one racial HD losers. But have a Cleric, a couple Sorcerers, and several rogues in there too.

[RandomLogic]

Yeah there is never a max level for fighting Kobolds! As long as your PC's are having fun with it.

We still make fun of a friend because he died at Lvl 1 to Kobolds with a crossbow!

If you have say 4 PC's at 3rd/4th level I think they would be ok. In that they would have the HP's (or the tank would) to be able to take a couple hits but should be able to hit a target nearly every time.

[Swooper]

If I were to run an incarnation of Tucker's Kobolds, I'd propably let the players be around 8th level or so. But higher is OK, though, up to 12th or so maybe.

...I want to try that sometime

[Telonius]

It's extremely situational. As the others have already mentioned, terrain and (especially) class advancement within the kobold ranks can significantly alter the challenge rating. In a straight-up fight (no traps, terrain advantage, etc.) with the non-advanced Kobold warrior in the monster manual, I'd say it's a trivial fight after about fourth or fifth level. 32 Meepo clones are just not a challenge for very long. (EDIT: Note, I said no terrain advantage or traps - your basic arena fight. All bets are off if Tucker's Terrors are on the loose).

That said, you're the DM. They get whatever XP you say they get.

[Darkxarth]

We still make fun of a friend because he died at Lvl 1 to Kobolds with a crossbow!

In a campaign I played in once one of the other players was playing a 6 and a half foot monster of a fighter. Everytime he would get hit by a Kobold he'd say, "Ow! My shin! Come back here you little anklebiters!"

It's extremely situational. As the others have already mentioned, terrain and (especially) class advancement within the kobold ranks can significantly alter the challenge rating. In a straight-up fight (no traps, terrain advantage, etc.) with the non-advanced Kobold warrior in the monster manual, I'd say it's a trivial fight after about fourth or fifth level. 32 Meepo clones are just not a challenge for very long. (EDIT: Note, I said no terrain advantage or traps - your basic arena fight. All bets are off if Tucker's Terrors are on the loose).

That said, you're the DM. They get whatever XP you say they get.

I'm thinking the majority of them are going to be standard, 1 HD warrior Kobolds, simply fighting from places they can't be attacked back from. The Kobold chieftan, however, is going to be a 2, 3, or 4 level Sorcerer, depending on the level of the party, and he'll probably have a level 1 or 2 cleric as well.

[Lochar]

I'm going to be running my players through a modified tucker's terrors.

6 level 9 PCs, and I'm expecting to get at least one of them dead, using the numbers for a 200 member tribe. 120ish combatants, and NPC class levels.

[Frosty]

The important thing to do in thiese kind of situations where you're being ganged up by lots of weenies is damage reduction and energy resistances. Having a Dragon Shaman around for the resistance aura is great, and there is the regeneration aura if the party HP drops too low.

Also, prepare volumetric spells that act like flamethrowers. Flamethrower weapons are terrific at clearing out tunnels. A halfling Dragon Shaman with Shape Breath feat can do very well clearing out these tunnels. Also, prepare Shrink Person for the medium sized members definitely so they can use the tunnels as well There are also many ways of destroying the infrastructure. Maybe flood the place with a Druid, or Transmute rock to mud to mess with the tunnel system.

In other words, throw one of these dungeons at PCs because it'll be fun to make them THINK

[skywalker]

In a campaign I played in once one of the other players was playing a 6 and a half foot monster of a fighter. Everytime he would get hit by a Kobold he'd say, "Ow! My shin! Come back here you little anklebiters!"


I'm thinking the majority of them are going to be standard, 1 HD warrior Kobolds, simply fighting from places they can't be attacked back from. The Kobold chieftan, however, is going to be a 2, 3, or 4 level Sorcerer, depending on the level of the party, and he'll probably have a level 1 or 2 cleric as well.

I played a dungeon with about 16(maybe closer to 20) level 1 kobolds. Party was 3 level 5 characters. It wasn't tucker's, but it wasn't straight up either. The party absolutely destroyed the kobolds, though. There weren't any casters, but there were a couple level 3 or 4 warriors. This would dictate that you need more kobolds rather than less.(Of course, our party also had a penchant for merciless destruction.)

[Lochar]

Yes Frosty, but kobolds have an adjustment you can make to them. Slight build, then they can run through Tiny tunnels. Bwa ha ha ha ha!

[Darkxarth]

The important thing to do in thiese kind of situations where you're being ganged up by lots of weenies is damage reduction and energy resistances. Having a Dragon Shaman around for the resistance aura is great, and there is the regeneration aura if the party HP drops too low.

Also, prepare volumetric spells that act like flamethrowers. Flamethrower weapons are terrific at clearing out tunnels. A halfling Dragon Shaman with Shape Breath feat can do very well clearing out these tunnels. Also, prepare Shrink Person for the medium sized members definitely so they can use the tunnels as well There are also many ways of destroying the infrastructure. Maybe flood the place with a Druid, or Transmute rock to mud to mess with the tunnel system.

In other words, throw one of these dungeons at PCs because it'll be fun to make them THINK

I have a fried who is a Dragon fanatic, and would probably do his best to play a Dragon Shaman anyway.

And yeah, except for the "trap" tunnels, most of the dungeon is going to be 3 1/2 or 4 feet tall, because why would Kobolds dig enormous tunnels (to them)except to trap their enemies?

If any of my players decide to play a Druid I will be very surprised. They are not a fan of that class at all, though I'm not really sure why.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Whatever you do, don't do a Master of Many forms/Wizard/divine minion Kobold, and you'll be fine.

[Duke of URL]

Since the rules as written don't offer PCs any (or at least significant) XP for defeating large numbers of critters with a low CR, you may want to just declare the whole encounter to be a specific CR, based on the relative challenge it offers.

If the party succeeds, they get the XP based off of that CR, no matter how many kobolds they overcome. (Adjusted up or down by level of success, perhaps.)

[Jalil]

Played intelligently, there is no limit on the PC's level to fight kobolds. Take Tucker's Terrors as an example, and go crazy with it.

Imagine a 20th level kobold sorcerer with leadership, who is attached ass a 'god figure' to a tribe of kobolds. They took over a EDIT: gnomish leadmine, so they have slaves to work with. Break down the money they make from crafting and selling weapons to nearby feral races (orcs, gnolls, etc) and you can start setting some massive traps.

Murder holes with 9/10 cover, drowning traps which drain into an underground stream, and then, ways to split up the party. Teleportation circles, which can be tied to silent image which projects a image of the teleported PC('s?) as continuing on ahead.

illusionary walls covering up pit traps of even shafts to a lower level (falling through an illusionary wall counts as interaction, so your rogues and fighters stay on top, while your primary arcanists[with their high will] will be dropped.) A double pit trap (a pit trap side by side with another, possibly more dangerous [+acid, +spikes, etc] The rogue will detect the trap, possibly disable it, but who checks again? Even better if they are running, as the first 2 will fall into the first hole, and the next 2 jump over one, into the other. Booyah)

Razor wire set at neck hight for medium creatures? Please. Cramped corridors designed to be snug for small creatures? squeeeeeze... Thanks.

Kobolds are not meat shields/tourney fodder. PC's should only ever encounter a kobold on the monsters terms, and even then, they shouldn't know them all. They require a little creativity on your part, but hey, PC's do the Role-playing, and rely on you to give them something other than roll-playing.

Note on PC death: Be sure to warn them about this. Any towns local to the area will know that the place is lethal, maybe not the extent, but don't underplay how frightened they are by the mine. Beyond level 5 or so, PC's no longer have respect for kobolds, and this will serve them some humble pie. Enjoy it.

[Aquillion]

With class levels, of course, it can be as high as you want. The PCs can go up against level 20 kobolds or epic kobold sorcerers or whatever.

If you want to use something like Tucker's Kobolds, it becomes a bit less intimidating at 11th level (Teleport, Cloudkill, Prying Eyes, Passwall, and some better walls can all put a cramp in the kobolds' threat or bypass them entirely). They become totally ineffective at 15th, when things like MMM, Phase Door, and Greater Teleport let the players pretty much do what they want without interference, no matter what tricks the kobolds play.

[shadowdemon_lord]

Their are ways to make the kobolds immune to even teleporting/cloudkilling PCs. Dimentionally anchor the entire place, give the kobolds some clerics capable of casting heroes feast. (really, poison at high levels is silly, any high level group should be able to get heroes feasts somehow). If your aim is to make it winnable though, don't entirely nerf the wizards. If the wizards start doing things like using stone to mud in clever ways, or making entrances into places by disintegrating them (letting the fighters open up a can of whoopass on the poor kobolds inside) roll with it. Similarly big fighters using adamantine weapons might be able to simply punch right through cover/walls/doors/what have you. An encounter like this should be incredibly nasty, but winnable.

[SoD]

Yeah there is never a max level for fighting Kobolds! As long as your PC's are having fun with it.

We still make fun of a friend because he died at Lvl 1 to Kobolds with a crossbow!

If you have say 4 PC's at 3rd/4th level I think they would be ok. In that they would have the HP's (or the tank would) to be able to take a couple hits but should be able to hit a target nearly every time.

Jeez, one of my players nearly did the same last session! The sorcerer shouts at the dragon wyrmling that they're chasing in draconic...it turns out that the kobolds in the next room heard, loaded their crossbows and pointed them at the door. If they had heavy crossbows instead of light, the cleric would've died. Oh, but they were level two (the players, not the kobolds. Measly warriors).

[Person_Man]

You're thinking of D&D encounters like a video game.

In most games, a weak enemy only shows up on the first few levels. Bump the difficulty higher, and the AI of the computer is smarter. Bump it higher, and more enemies show up. Bump the difficulty even higher, and the computer just makes the enemies have more hit points and deal more damage.

In D&D, a group of enemies can be as hard as you want them to be, regardless of their hit points, abilities, CR, whatever. You just have to make them more and more crafty. Use better traps. Use more inventive tactics. Have the PCs try and take them out in their home. Have them collapse tunnels, and then dig new ones. Use more dangerous environments. The only limit to a Kobold's power is the DM's imagination.

[RandomLogic]

Jeez, one of my players nearly did the same last session! The sorcerer shouts at the dragon wyrmling that they're chasing in draconic...it turns out that the kobolds in the next room heard, loaded their crossbows and pointed them at the door. If they had heavy crossbows instead of light, the cleric would've died. Oh, but they were level two (the players, not the kobolds. Measly warriors).

It's always funny to see the caster's running for their lives at low levels from Kobolds with crossbows. I'm pretty sure a number of a friends died at one point or another to a well placed kobold (or equally pitiful npc) crossbow bolt!

[Lochar]

2nd edition

Kobold with a mace.

Critical to the nads.

The DM decided my character's profession was all of a sudden tailor.

I wanted to let him die.

[mostlyharmful]

give them the small/tiny tunnel variet on the WotC boards. then make the whole of their warren out of tunnels too small for even the halfling to get through. then rig them all with deadfall traps and cavein mechanizisms. then have THEM use poisen gas and tanglefoot bags in close conditions with door seals that they can hide behind to keep safe. then have them pop up 50 feet away with poisened crossbows/javlins. repeat. over and over. attrition is the weapon of choice even at higher levels.

[Townopolis]

I believe the maximum level for fighting kobolds in any numbers greater than 0 would be level 20. Unless you're going into epics, then I have no idea what the maximum level is.

The key point, which is just a reiteration of what has already been said, is that the PCs aren't fighting kobolds. They're fighting the indefatigable warren of one thousand and one traps, ambushes, and pitfalls of doom (plus sorcerers).

[Frosty]

Protection from arrows pretty much screws them over assuming a bunch of non-classed kobolds. Also, Delay/Neutralize poison.

If characters know beforehand they're fighting kobolds, why wouldn't they be going in protected against projectiles and poison? It's like fighting a Red Dragon without some sort of fire resistance.

Again, the PCs shouldn't even try to fight in those cramped spaces. Too big of a disadvantage. Flush those kobolds out of the tunnels. You never want to fight on your opponent's terms.

so yeah, for an unprepared party, this will result in TPK. For a prepared party, it's not nearly as hard as it should.

[Aquillion]

You're thinking of D&D encounters like a video game.

In most games, a weak enemy only shows up on the first few levels. Bump the difficulty higher, and the AI of the computer is smarter. Bump it higher, and more enemies show up. Bump the difficulty even higher, and the computer just makes the enemies have more hit points and deal more damage.

In D&D, a group of enemies can be as hard as you want them to be, regardless of their hit points, abilities, CR, whatever. You just have to make them more and more crafty. Use better traps. Use more inventive tactics. Have the PCs try and take them out in their home. Have them collapse tunnels, and then dig new ones. Use more dangerous environments. The only limit to a Kobold's power is the DM's imagination.

Eh. There does come a point where you're going to have to basically give the kobolds new abilities directly. Cloudkill is going to sweep 60 feet per level. Disintegrate, passwall, etc can just tear apart their clever defenses. You could also be in trouble if any players use a build that gives them high, hard-to-bypass damage resistance.

Sure, a DM can make anything dangerous, but past a certain point it becomes less about pitting them against the kobold's cleverness and more about pitting them against the psychopathic DM (which can be fun, don't get me wrong.) If you have to give the kobolds access to large amounts of high-level magic, or have that magic just 'happen' to favor them (by Dimensional Anchoring the entire place, say), you've crossed a certain line.

Tucker's Kobolds are neat because the traps were low-tech things that the kobolds could reasonably have devised themselves; it really felt like it was players vs. kobolds, with the kobolds winning. If every single kobold has a vorpal blade and a ring of poison resistance and the entire dungeon is magically immune to teleportation and digging, it's less players vs. kobolds and more players vs. the dungeon.

[mostlyharmful]

Eh. There does come a point where you're going to have to basically give the kobolds new abilities directly. Cloudkill is going to sweep 60 feet per level. Disintegrate, passwall, etc can just tear apart their clever defenses. You could also be in trouble if any players use a build that gives them high, hard-to-bypass damage resistance.

Sure, a DM can make anything dangerous, but past a certain point it becomes less about pitting them against the kobold's cleverness and more about pitting them against the psychopathic DM (which can be fun, don't get me wrong.) If you have to give the kobolds access to large amounts of high-level magic, or have that magic just 'happen' to favor them (by Dimensional Anchoring the entire place, say), you've crossed a certain line.

Tucker's Kobolds are neat because the traps were low-tech things that the kobolds could reasonably have devised themselves; it really felt like it was players vs. kobolds, with the kobolds winning. If every single kobold has a vorpal blade and a ring of poison resistance and the entire dungeon is magically immune to teleportation and digging, it's less players vs. kobolds and more players vs. the dungeon.

But in an environment controlled by the Kobolds which involves mining props I can't help but think that disintergrate is a baaaad idea, passwall just lets you get in, getting out again (unless you've got an arbitrarily high number of passwalls memorized) is a whole nother story, and the cloudkill spell has never worked in any kobold warren I've run just because it says in the description that the gasses are heavier than air and sink into holes in the ground, meaning that they sink through vents and mine holes increadibly fast. Sure the Kobolds get over matched eventually but there really is a long way before intelligence, viciousness and total control of your environment gets to be ignored. and by then you're playing with Kobolds with levels.

[Lochar]

That's where you have one mid level leader kobold with the sorcerer or cleric class, using wall of stone.

Wizard: Ha! Disintergrate
Party sees a kobold casting.
Party: Stupid kobold!
Wall reappears.

Wizard: Crap.

Repeat ad naseum.

And if the party is looking for something actually IN the kobold lair, I pity them. I don't care if you can scry it and greater teleport to it. You touch it and something's going to happen before you can get 6 seconds to cast a second teleport away. If nothing else, the ground won't be stable or something.

[Frosty]

Unless you actually need to retrieve something from the kobold lair, just collapse the entire thing from the outside. I'm sure somebody can create an earthquake with magic.

There's always the option of using a bard. With a high enough Bluff and Diplomacy, you can get away with *anything*

[Lochar]

Then I just say 'look, remember when I told you diplomancy wasn't core, because otherwise you could talk your way out of everything?'

High level bard? Doesn't need his songs. Doesn't need weapons. Just needs 6 seconds and a good Diplomacy.

[tainsouvra]

Unless you actually need to retrieve something from the kobold lair, just collapse the entire thing from the outside. I'm sure somebody can create an earthquake with magic.

Nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[SilverClawShift]

Remember that challenge ratings are a general guide, and that XP rewards are essentially a floating variable. You, as the DM, can make any encounter as challenging or easy as you desire by giving your monsters pre-cooked advantage (which kobolds have like crazy, traps, TRAPS EVERYWHERE)

it doesn't matter if the party is going against a trio of awakened humminbirds with nerf beaks, if the situation is akwardly dangerous for them for whatever reason, you can still decide they deserve whatever amount of XP you feel is worth overcoming the challenge.