DEATH BATTLE - Season 8: Settling the debate once and for all?

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: This time

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I do hate going by what is said vs what is shown, particularly since without that, I don't know if Star would win. Still Star did have a ton of things she could do, and it seems like Steven simply didn't have a lot of ways to actually fight back without fusions.

Spoiler: Next time

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Alright. Well, much like last time this will depend almost entirely on what version of Link and what version of Cloud is being used.

[Traab]

No comment on this time,

Spoiler: next time

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Im wondering if this is being done because of all the whining people like me have done about how cloud got robbed of all his powerful gear while link got tons of stuff. If so, I expect them to give cloud most of his other stuff and have him lose anyways due to some technicality. They seem to enjoy the "Fine, here, see how it didnt matter to our original ruling?" type responses when they do a rematch.

[McNum]

Oh, next week is going to get spicy.

Spoiler: Next time...

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A rematch. THAT rematch. Death Battle rarely does rematches, Superman vs. Goku II being the main one, but Link vs. Cloud I had a lot of early series weirdness to the method, so it is a good one to pick up.

Question is, what did each character get since the last one? Link, obviously, got Breath of the Wild and Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity. Cloud got Final Fantasy VII Remake. He did not star in Kingdom Hearts III.

Clearly the most scientific way to settle this is to run 1000 Link vs. Cloud matches in Super Smash Bros Ultimate and call the winner from that.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Oh, next week is going to get spicy.

Spoiler: Next time...

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A rematch. THAT rematch. Death Battle rarely does rematches, Superman vs. Goku II being the main one, but Link vs. Cloud I had a lot of early series weirdness to the method, so it is a good one to pick up.

Question is, what did each character get since the last one? Link, obviously, got Breath of the Wild and Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity. Cloud got Final Fantasy VII Remake. He did not star in Kingdom Hearts III.

Clearly the most scientific way to settle this is to run 1000 Link vs. Cloud matches in Super Smash Bros Ultimate and call the winner from that.

Spoiler

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Specifically, 2 amibos duking it out, not human players.

IIRC, Hyrule Warriors Link can literally swing the planet around as part of one of his chain attacks. That doesn't bode well for Cloud, even if they rule it as just lifting and swinging all of the terrain that can be seen on screen.

[Kitten Champion]

Cloud is decisively weaker if we assume they use the remake version of him, both because he's at the first part of what's likely to be a trilogy and because the mechanics of the remake are designed to work in real-time combat like an action game with less emphasis on size and spectacle and more on flowing through animations quickly and functioning on screen simultaneously.

Which is why unless they fundamentally change their logic for how they're implementing the combatants into the battle I don't see why the results should change from before.

Still, maybe this is one of those battles intended to subvert expectations. Between him and Tifa, FF characters haven't won in DB as far as I'm aware.

[Xihirli]

Spoiler

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Specifically,2 amibos duking it out, not human players.

IIRC, Hyrule Warriors Link can literally swing the planet around as part of one of his chain attacks. That doesn't bode well for Cloud, even if they rule it as just lifting and swinging all of the terrain that can be seen on screen.

That is OG Hyrule Warriors, not Age of Calamity, and the first one is explicitly non-canon. The other is

Spoiler: spoiler

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in its own little timeline that Nintendo is under no obligation to continue, making it effectively non-canon

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Including OG Hyrule Warriors feats would be the same as including feats from Smash Bros or Mario Kart for Link.

[Lemmy]

Knowing DB... They will probably just use some BS logic to justify the original result...

"Link has infinity strength, you guys! His narrative is to always the strongest warrior!"

...Even if both of those facts are verifiably untrue.

Spoiler

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Specifically, 2 amibos duking it out, not human players.

IIRC, Hyrule Warriors Link can literally swing the planet around as part of one of his chain attacks. That doesn't bode well for Cloud, even if they rule it as just lifting and swinging all of the terrain that can be seen on screen.

It'd be particularly egregious if they used this as an excuse, considering they straight up ignored Tifa's strength because "it's just a property of that one attack".

[HolyDraconus]

Still, maybe this is one of those battles intended to subvert expectations. Between him and Tifa, FF characters haven't won in DB as far as I'm aware.

Sephiroth won his, and boy, did that piss off the Devil May Cry fans. The whole episode, when thinking back on it, is stupid. Vergil is beyond faster, but Sephy has experience fighting people faster than him so it didn't matter? What the actual fu...cough. Sephy healing makes sense. He fused with the Earth basically and did have infinite mana as a technicality. Though every iteration of him outside of when he's playable in 7 is coded to just have infinite mana. Or more specifically, have zero cost spells. Meteor though, is a dumb spell that they REALLY went ham on when they knew it made no sense. Regardless, this next fight is going to be every version of Link cause this is after the point where that weird nonsense happened where every Link gains everything the previous one did or some such garbage, vs 7 remake Cloud who is quite CLEARLY brought down to normalish people standards. Calling it now.

[Angelalex242]

Remake may actually help Cloud.


Consider Punisher mode and Counterstance.

Go ahead Link. Hit him.

[Delicious Taffy]

I have no dog in this next fight. I've played one Zelda game, and I only know Cloud from Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia NT. That said, the latest Link has access to a hammer that can ragdoll an enemy in seconds. All he has to do is slap Cloud with it four times and hope a cliff is nearby.

[Kitten Champion]

Sephiroth won his, and boy, did that piss off the Devil May Cry fans.

Oh, I vaguely recall that happening now.

Regardless, this next fight is going to be every version of Link cause this is after the point where that weird nonsense happened where every Link gains everything the previous one did or some such garbage, vs 7 remake Cloud who is quite CLEARLY brought down to normalish people standards. Calling it now.

Which is the suspicious part. Or sus, as the kids say.

What has actually changed between then and now with these two properties that would in any way alter their stance? Either...

1. They have new writers tackling this and their views differ from those who did the original.
2. They see something in remake Cloud that's worthy of drawing new conclusions.

Otherwise, why bother? This isn't like the Goku v. Superman battle, Cloud hasn't gone Super SOLDIER God Super SOLDIER since or anything. His peak powers were and are still late game original FF7 and maybe Dissidia if you really wanted to stretch things.

Remake may actually help Cloud.


Consider Punisher mode and Counterstance.

Go ahead Link. Hit him.

FF7 Cloud already had Counter as a Materia, which if min-maxed can be pretty insane. In fact most of original Cloud's capabilities can be ludicrously OP if you game the system to some degree and just plain stupid broken if you actually know all the mechanics and how to exploit them.

[HolyDraconus]

Otherwise, why bother? This isn't like the Goku v. Superman battle, Cloud hasn't gone Super SOLDIER God Super SOLDIER since or anything. His peak powers were and are still late game original FF7 and maybe Dissidia if you really wanted to stretch things.

I think it’s exactly what Traab said. It’s going to be a “here’s all your stuff but it doesn’t matter cause you still lose” situation. Using remake Cloud at this point is dumb, specifically cause he’s clearly not done with his own game, and as an aside, materia in remake is either new or just don’t work like it used to.

[Traab]

I think it’s exactly what Traab said. It’s going to be a “here’s all your stuff but it doesn’t matter cause you still lose” situation. Using remake Cloud at this point is dumb, specifically cause he’s clearly not done with his own game, and as an aside, materia in remake is either new or just don’t work like it used to.

Yeah I half expect them to give him all his materia, use the current "canon" version of it to establish its power level, then ignore everything else they dont want to acknowledge. Then go "Here, we gave him all his materia, he lost, you happy?" I will admit though that its hard to use the original ff7 game to establish too much in the way of how his abilities transfer over. For example, we can see him survive the leading edge of a supernova as a pretty hardcore durability feat, but for offensive damage, the vast majority of it is just seeing 9999 over and over again. At least with tifa we can see her pick up the biggest monster in the game and suplex it for her finishing move to estimate the strength required to do such a thing and by extension her punching power. Cloud though? Not so much. Spell effects and summons can sometimes do more, bahumut zero for example is basically an orbital laser, and you can estimate how much explosive fire a flare spell unleashes. But in general, its hard to really put a number on his strength and damage dealing potential as he rarely obliterates mountain ranges.

[McNum]

I haven't played 7 Remake, but does Cloud get any bigger durability feats than falling off Midgar into Aerith's church yet? There's a lot of weird interactions going around, but hitting a wooden roof and possibly terminal velocity is good, hard numbers for what won't be enough to kill him.

Also I'm thinking that BoTW Link having those slate runes is going to be a factor. That Buster Sword looks awfully magnetic is what I'm saying.

[Jurai]

I haven't played 7 Remake, but does Cloud get any bigger durability feats than falling off Midgar into Aerith's church yet? There's a lot of weird interactions going around, but hitting a wooden roof and possibly terminal velocity is good, hard numbers for what won't be enough to kill him.

Also I'm thinking that BoTW Link having those slate runes is going to be a factor. That Buster Sword looks awfully magnetic is what I'm saying.

To be frank, it doesn't have to be. Link can just use Stasis to go ZA WARUDO!! on Cloud and beat the brakes off him so hard he launches into the Blood Moon or whatever. There isn't a single shred of evidence Cloud can survive reentry, after all.

[Forum Explorer]

To be frank, it doesn't have to be. Link can just use Stasis to go ZA WARUDO!! on Cloud and beat the brakes off him so hard he launches into the Blood Moon or whatever. There isn't a single shred of evidence Cloud can survive reentry, after all.

Cloud is likely strong enough to only be frozen for a moment though.

[Keltest]

I suspect a lot of them didn't give much of a toss either way. You need to be either cynical or crazy to assassinate people for a living, for the most part, and the Morag Tong don't want the latter.

[Devonix]

Yeah I half expect them to give him all his materia, use the current "canon" version of it to establish its power level, then ignore everything else they dont want to acknowledge. Then go "Here, we gave him all his materia, he lost, you happy?" I will admit though that its hard to use the original ff7 game to establish too much in the way of how his abilities transfer over. For example, we can see him survive the leading edge of a supernova as a pretty hardcore durability feat, but for offensive damage, the vast majority of it is just seeing 9999 over and over again. At least with tifa we can see her pick up the biggest monster in the game and suplex it for her finishing move to estimate the strength required to do such a thing and by extension her punching power. Cloud though? Not so much. Spell effects and summons can sometimes do more, bahumut zero for example is basically an orbital laser, and you can estimate how much explosive fire a flare spell unleashes. But in general, its hard to really put a number on his strength and damage dealing potential as he rarely obliterates mountain ranges.

Power scaling in FF and many rpgs are basically broken and nonsense. Stuff like Supernova actually being as powerful as a supernova is nonsensical because we know that their in story durability is far less than that. Added to the fact that if Sephiroth could do stuff like that, then the entire point in summoning Meteor would be invalidated. Making the entire story of the game make zero sense.

He needs the black materia to summon Meteor because it's the only way Sephiroth has enough power to threaten the planet.

Also Cait Sith can survive Supernova. Does that mean mass produced Moogle suit robots can suvive solar system level destruction?

Also you get stuff like Tifa picking up giant monsters because her attack animations have her pick up whatever's there. Outside of combat she's strong but nowhere near that, as evidenced by her not being able to get out of handcuffs, or a cell on her own.

[Maryring]

I still maintain that Tifa's slap fight should've been one hit sending her opponent out of bounds.

[Devonix]

I still maintain that Tifa's slap fight should've been one hit sending her opponent out of bounds.

It goes back to Sabin suplexing Doom Train. It's just a matter of game mechanics, not what the characters can actually do.

[Maryring]

So you're arguing Tifa, a trained martial artist, is as strong as an untrained noblewoman?

[Keltest]

So you're arguing Tifa, a trained martial artist, is as strong as an untrained noblewoman?

Martial arts tend to be more about skill than strength. Strength certainly helps, but you don't need to be a bodybuilder or anything. Avoiding it turning into a contest of strength is kind of the point of martial arts, after all.

Besides, Tifa isn't exactly a hulking muscular giant woman.

[Rater202]

Besides, Tifa isn't exactly a hulking muscular giant woman.

I don't know, she's got some pretty fabulous abulouses.

Not six-pack or anything but looking at her character model in the remake makes it look like there is no excess fat on her midsection and, judging from her proportions, the same holds true for her limbs.

She has exactly the optimal build for the kind of martial arts she's specced in.

[Traab]

So link blurb is up and its basically, "Since the lore says link is reborn in each game, we are justified in giving him whatever combo of abilities we want even if they never, EVER show up all in the same game. Also the strongest version of each weapon because at this point, why not?"

Next week. "Cloud gets his sword. Even though his equipment list potentially dwarfs that of link and can be found in one game, we only will let him have his starter gear and materia. Because thats what is iconic about him. What do you mean links iconic gear is the master sword and his shield? Shut up."

[HolyDraconus]

Link Blurp up. As expected, its all Links. Depending on how they rule that obliteration arrow Cloud could technically walk it off. But they tossed in as a casual feat lava walking. Looks to be heading about where I thought it would.

[Delicious Taffy]

Next week. "Cloud gets his sword. Even though his equipment list potentially dwarfs that of link and can be found in one game, we only will let him have his starter gear and materia. Because thats what is iconic about him. What do you mean links iconic gear is the master sword and his shield? Shut up."

So, basically exactly what they did the first time, except with shiny new graphics? I dunno, would Death Battle really do that with a rematch? It seems so uncharacteristic of them.

[Rater202]

So, basically exactly what they did the first time, except with shiny new graphics? I dunno, would Death Battle really do that with a rematch? It seems so uncharacteristic of them.

Goku versus superman 2 not only failed to correct mistakes and obvious bias from the first time, but ended with them making up a narrative reason based on cherry picked facts for why Goku can never beet Superman.

They can, have, and most certainly will in the future.

[Traab]

So, basically exactly what they did the first time, except with shiny new graphics? I dunno, would Death Battle really do that with a rematch? It seems so uncharacteristic of them.

Ive got the sinking feeling this entire thing is a retread being done because of the remake of ff7 being out. Like we might get slightly different numbers based on how the new game plays but thats about it.

[Devonix]

So link blurb is up and its basically, "Since the lore says link is reborn in each game, we are justified in giving him whatever combo of abilities we want even if they never, EVER show up all in the same game. Also the strongest version of each weapon because at this point, why not?"

Next week. "Cloud gets his sword. Even though his equipment list potentially dwarfs that of link and can be found in one game, we only will let him have his starter gear and materia. Because thats what is iconic about him. What do you mean links iconic gear is the master sword and his shield? Shut up."

It's not that it's iconic. It's that it's canonically what he uses. Buster Sword is his canon sword for the entire events of FF7 Everything else is just stuff for applying new numbers to the game but don't do anything.

[HolyDraconus]

It's not that it's iconic. It's that it's canonically what he uses. Buster Sword is his canon sword for the entire events of FF7 Everything else is just stuff for applying new numbers to the game but don't do anything.

Except it wasn't. Buster Sword wasn't even Cloud's signature weapon (it was Zack's, and if you REALLY want to delve into the lore of it, Angeal's) and was ditched before even leaving Midgar. Advent Children doubled down on that with his Fusion Sword, since the Buster was supposed to be a memento of his memory of Zack ( who himself got it from Angeal) as well as a Symbol of Honor (for Angeal specifically). Its iconic, but its as canon to Cloud's arsenal as his hairpin accessory from Final Fantasy Tactics (which IS canon for Cloud, but I don't think he had that many feats in Tactics), which is to say, its something he used but it wasn't the only thing he used.