OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

We know Eugene was judged to be Lawful Good by a "pure Law and Good" deva,

so it seems beyond question that he died a Lawful Good man.

IMO, unlike with Roy, Eugene's judgement was aborted the moment that they got to the Blood Oath.

The Giant on Eugene's parenting:

Think about what it would be like to grow up with Eugene Greenhilt as your actual father. You would learn pretty quickly that any display of genuine emotion or caring was apt to be stepped on with a sarcastic insult. You might also learn that the only way to get someone to pay attention to you is with harsh language.

[Ploppy]

Miko went out of her way to conform to her moral code, she did her best to help the innocent and punish Evil. Her being LG made sense.
I cannot, however, recall a single instance of Eugene doing anything like that. Trying to fulfill the Blood Oath is the closest he came to that, but even that was in part just self interest and he eventually abandoned the quest.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

In Eugene's conversation with Right-Eye he says he dropped the blood oath because his family was more important than adventuring and he encourages Right-Eye to settle down.
So ironically while that caused him to miss Roy's soccer game and widen the rift between the two, Eugene's intention for dropping the quest is at least Good-aligned.

[Emanick]

IMO, unlike with Roy, Eugene's judgement was aborted the moment that they got to the Blood Oath.

Spoiler

Show

Sure, but that was implied to be more of a last-minute-noticing thingy (sorry, I’m bad with words today). The page doesn’t read like the judgment is being interrupted in the middle; it reads like the deva was practically done and then noticed that one outstanding detail. It’s tough to read that page as “Eugene was still likely to be kicked out by something else unrelated to his Blood Oath.”

[JavaScribe]

Such as?

• Not that Girard has any right to complain, but he seemed to think Soon would go after him over some "Greater Good" excuse.
• Soon prioritized sealing the Gate over not only his own, but also Kraagor's life, and the flashback says that this inflamed years of preexisting resentments.
• We know for a fact that the Sapphire Guard was willing to massacre entire innocent goblin villages just because a few goblin priests carrying out a reckless plan happened to live there.

You can argue that these deeds were necessary, but they don't make him look great.

[Metastachydium]

Given that Eugene is Dead when OoTS begins, and that most of his life was already passed by in the prequels, your objection has no grounds as it has no evidence.
Most of his life happens off screen, in both the spatial and temporal sense.
Which takes me to the fact that, on screen, he's pending his arrival into LG afterlife once the blood oath is completed.
And, Rich's post, which one of these days I'll find; I may have to cast Summon Banana for that one though.

I would say we have copious amounts of evidence that he did things that do not befit a LG man, and things like his superiority complex as a wizard (

Spoiler: Origin

Show

in Origin we learn that he apparently did not talk to his one and only son for three years due to Roy choosing a class he deemed inferior

) or abandoning responsibility after responsibility because he got bored were not things he picked up when he grew old or only did on the rare occasion.
That he is apparently eligible to enter Celestia is incredibly confusing and contradicts basically everything we know about him, especially since we also know that if big enough, a single mistake can easily constitute the difference between LG and TN.

[arimareiji]

Spoiler: collapsed for space

Show

The review was already completed, as I recall, and he was in except for the blood oath. He was left trapped in Limbo by the oath while his son was admitted because Eugene abandoned his oath in life; this exile in limbo was his punishment for doing so.

That doesn't mean he wasn't lawful good, nor does the chaotic actions he has taken since death make him other than lawful good -- it simply makes him a human, not a deva or a paragon, not an exemplar of the alignment. The Deva criticized Roy on much the same lines. Roy lying to his fellow members in earlier books to get them to do what he wanted did not scream "lawful" to the Deva judging his case. Nonetheless, she let him in anyway because he was trying to live up to the tenants of law and good and , for a mortal, that is enough. It isn't enough to qualify for paragon or sainthood, and it might disqualify him from paladinship, but for a lawful good fighter without bonus feats that is enough.

I'm willing to believe Eugene was lawful good when he was judged and remains lawful good now, on the basis that when his case was reviewed it reviewed his entire life, not just what we see on-panel. What we see on-camera is not enough to determine his final destination. He's not the focus of the story and we do not see his character in detail. He's an irascible old man who has a bad relationship with his son, and pops down every once in awhile to deliver sarcasm and exposition. That's his story purpose. We don't know why he was judged to be lawful good in the first place, but I am inclined to believe there must have been off-panel reasons which were sufficient, which Rich isn't telling because he only has so much panel space. Maybe if he has another kickstarter we can get a backstory to fill in the blanks, although I for my part have already had as much of Eugene Greenhilt as I can take.

Good does not mean nice. Good people can be unpleasant to deal with, good people can be bad fathers, good people can make mistakes, good people can experience moral failures. That doesn't mean their alignment changes. That just means they're humans.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well said.

It's very human to judge people as if what we know of them represents everything about them, because we're first-person storytellers. And there are lots of good reasons - such as two-faced people, or our non-omniscience and limited lifespan to gather data. But as with any quick-and-dirty process it's prone to error, and it's very "hackable".

If I show you every good thing Belkar has ever done and leave out the rest, you might think him a saint. I suspect this will come into play when Minrah grieves for his death, not having seen most of his awful deeds.

If I do the converse with Roy, you might think he's a horrible person. And again, I suspect this will come into play with Minrah - who may be tempted to surreptitiously cast Detect Evil when she sees the party's apathy and joking about Belkar's death.

Be careful of how much data you take in from people* who routinely describe others in a manner that's reminiscent of The Blind Men And The Elephant. Judging others based on Why They're Evil (or Good), let alone a single instance thereof, is like judging "what happened" in an event based on a single photo.

^{* - I didn't want to leave any doubt - I don't mean this with respect to anyone here, because I don't believe it applies to anyone here. This is just general old-man-rambling-with-unwanted-advice. (^_^)°}

[Fyraltari]

[*]Not that Girard has any right to complain, but he seemed to think Soon would go after him over some "Greater Good" excuse.

Girard also bet that Soon who violate his Oath under twelve weeks' time. The man did not know Soon as much as he thought.

[*]Soon prioritized sealing the Gate over not only his own, but also Kraagor's life, and the flashback says that this inflamed years of preexisting resentments.

We have no context for this resenments though.
EDIT: Okay, we do have some context: Girard didn't appreciate having to deal with all the mapmaking duties.

[*]We know for a fact that the Sapphire Guard was willing to massacre entire innocent goblin villages just because a few goblin priests carrying out a reckless plan happened to live there.

This attack happened 34 years ago (Source: SOD page 9) and Soon passed command of the SG back when Shojo was a little boy. Granted the chronology is wonky since only sixty-six/-seven years are supposed to have passed since Mijung's death and Shojo looks like an octegenarian, but it seems like soon wasn't in command at the time

[GreatWyrmGold]

Eugene was left trapped in Limbo by the oa—

PEDANTRY ALERT
Limbo's technically a separate plane in the D&D cosmology, not the antechamber to the afterlife. Moreover, in Dante's Inferno, Limbo was specifically the antechamber to hell. Discussing the broader meaning of Limbo would cross the line from arguably-just-literature* into no-that's-definitely-religion, but I think it's safe to say Limbo isn't ever an entrance into heaven.

*And I will make that argument if I have to.

Nonetheless, she let [Roy] in anyway because he was trying to live up to the tenants of law and good and , for a mortal, that is enough.

Evidence of Eugene trying to be Lawful Good is somewhat lacking at this point. Moreover, one of Eugene's primary character flaws is not trying. Assuming that he tried to be LG enough off-panel to avoid the infernal pits of...um, probably Mechanicus isn't an invalid position, but it's not strong enough to effectively attack the "Eugene's getting kicked out of heaven" position.

Given that Eugene is Dead when OoTS begins, and that most of his life was already passed by in the prequels, your objection has no grounds as it has no evidence.

I disagree. What we see of Eugene isn't his whole life, but it does likely indicate how he tends to act. We have evidence supporting this thanks to Roy's reactions to Eugene's actions, which indicate that the way he acts on-panel is how he acted off-panel while he was alive. And also on-panel while he was alive, for that matter.
It's your position that has no evidence, because it relies entirely on pointing at places we have no evidence and saying that all of Eugene's LG actions happened there, and that we can't prove otherwise. Granted, those are decade-sized holes, but we have zero reason to think the contents of those holes are radically different than the brief flashbacks we've seen in between.

[KorvinStarmast]

I disagree. What we see of Eugene isn't his whole life,

And yet the Cosmos, when his whole life was over depostied him at the doorstep of Celestia.

I am back to "you can be LG and a jerk at the same time" since it fits the author's assignment of alignment.

I do, however, take bunsen_h's point: since he's been pulling shenanigans since he got put on hold, he may warrant a second review and get slapped with "Dude, you just ain't lawful" and sent on his merry way. But that's in the future, not now, and in any case it's after the blood oath is completed by his offspring. I get the idea that he's in some kind of odd purgatory equivalent, in that he knows that he Can't Get In and he has to watch as his offspring don't (so far) take care of his unfinished business.

• Not that Girard has any right to complain, but he seemed to think Soon would go after him over some "Greater Good" excuse.
• Soon prioritized sealing the Gate over not only his own, but also Kraagor's life, and the flashback says that this inflamed years of preexisting resentments.
• We know for a fact that the Sapphire Guard was willing to massacre entire innocent goblin villages just because a few goblin priests carrying out a reckless plan happened to live there.

Interesting points, but Girard and the rest hardly know about point 3, all they have is point 2, and your point 1 makes Girard not a credible witness. (And Soon didn't actually do that, did he? No, he didn't)
Your points, however, may get substantially greater support in subsequent strips as we learn more about the Scribblers from Serini - bearing in mind that she's careless with the truth as a habit.

As to this:

That he is apparently eligible to enter Celestia is incredibly confusing and contradicts basically everything we know about him

Maybe the problem is the lens that you are looking through.

[arimareiji]

...
Your points, however, may get substantially greater support in subsequent strips as we learn more about the Scribblers from Serini - bearing in mind that she's careless with the truth as a habit.

Just being picky, but ymmv on whether it's "carelessness" per se. Imagine you're watching someone walk toward you, and you expect them to take a straight path because that's the most efficient. Instead, they meander so haphazardly that you think they must be careless or drunk.

Then you get an overhead view, and see the pile of dog crap they avoided at the last moment, the puddle they walked around, the broken glass they picked their way through, etc. Not having a purpose that we expect doesn't mean they don't have one. (^_~)b

As to this:
Maybe the problem is the lens that you are looking through.

A much better synopsis than my long rant above.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just being picky, but ymmv on whether it's "carelessness" per se.

That was me saying "she lies a lot as a matter of habit, being a rogue" but I was trying to be clever. Looks like that one didn't land to well. Won't be quitting my day job any time soon.

[arimareiji]

That was me saying "she lies a lot as a matter of habit, being a rogue" but I was trying to be clever. Looks like that one didn't land to well. Won't be quitting my day job any time soon.

I kinda figured that was where you were going, but I'm so fond of picking out minutiae that I put the "ant" in "pedant". (^_~)

[Schroeswald]

There is, somewhere, a post on these forums where Rich spells out various character alignments. IIRC, Eugene is listed as LG, but I can't find that post at the moment. That is also the place where V is listed as TN.

He listed a bunch of characters with neutral alignments, but not necessarily all of them and Eugene was never on that list. I don’t think this means that Eugene wasn’t neutral, if Rich was planning say, a big dramatic emotional scene where Eugene discovers he’s not going to celestia, well maybe he wouldn’t want to say that outright.

Also my opinions on Eugenes alignment: he ain’t good, and he ain’t lawful, I can think of like, two things he’s ever done in his life or afterlife that fit the alignment, first is doing to Blood Oath, which he abandoned, and second, which is imo more good and lawful, is choosing to do right by Sara and Roy at the start of his fatherhood (and convincing Right Eye to give up on revenge), another thing he abandoned in favor of studying magic, something that led to the death of his youngest son.

[bunsen_h]

And yet the Cosmos, when his whole life was over depostied him at the doorstep of Celestia.

I am back to "you can be LG and a jerk at the same time" since it fits the author's assignment of alignment.

I do, however, take bunsen_h's point: since he's been pulling shenanigans since he got put on hold, he may warrant a second review and get slapped with "Dude, you just ain't lawful" and sent on his merry way. But that's in the future, not now, and in any case it's after the blood oath is completed by his offspring. I get the idea that he's in some kind of odd purgatory equivalent, in that he knows that he Can't Get In and he has to watch as his offspring don't (so far) take care of his unfinished business.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

It's not clear how far the Deva got through his review. Eugene asks "So... am I good here, or what?" and the Deva replies "That's what I'm trying to determine" and proceeds to look at the record. He notes a few fairly minor problems, then notices the outstanding Blood Oath of Vengeance. Was the check for Eugene being Lawful also under review at that point? -- the "am I good here" being ambiguous, regarding both alignment and being satisfactory. And his lying right at that point, claiming that he'd completed the Oath, would have been a new black mark.

[Ave]

I kindof wonder if Serini might be evil.
Hitting defenceless prisoners and providing them with false hope of freedom doesn't exactly scream 'good' at any rate.

And there was nothing to be gained with that random lie. She is chaotic neutral/evil to me.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If memory serves, The Giant's quote is that Eugene had written "Lawful Good" on his character sheet, so he was sent to Celestia for his initial interview. Beyond that, we know the devas didn't immediately kick him somewhere else, so he at least has a case for LG.

Given his track record of abandoning his commitments, I think he's at best going to Bytopia. More likely somewhere further south.

[CountDVB]

Girard also bet that Soon who violate his Oath under twelve weeks' time. The man did not know Soon as much as he thought.

We have no context for this resenments though.
EDIT: Okay, we do have some context: Girard didn't appreciate having to deal with all the mapmaking duties.

This attack happened 34 years ago (Source: SOD page 9) and Soon passed command of the SG back when Shojo was a little boy. Granted the chronology is wonky since only sixty-six/-seven years are supposed to have passed since Mijung's death and Shojo looks like an octegenarian, but it seems like soon wasn't in command at the time

It's likely Girard was projecting, if subconsciously. He would've acted similarly to the accusations he was throwing at Soon. It's telling even Haley who is firmly in Chaotic showed frustration at Girard's inability to understand Lawful folk. I think they really didn't take the time to know each other.

I suspect that if Soon died instead of Kraagor, then Girard might've driven a wedge between himself and the other Scribblers if he was insensitive about it.

As for the mapmaking duties, I think it's cause he was a ranger. And yeah, Soon was dead by the time Ronjo became the new leader of the Sapphire Guard and the troubles began with the arisocracy and so on.

[Jasdoif]

If memory serves, The Giant's quote is that Eugene had written "Lawful Good" on his character sheet, so he was sent to Celestia for his initial interview.

The Giant was specifically talking about Roy, but I think it still fits:

Personally I don't think Roy's "test" had anything to do with getting into Celestia. The deva talks about "tossing his soul over to True Neutral or Neutral Good", but she has no authority to grant access to those afterlives, so that raises the image of a soul being forever "tossed" between planes and no guarantee that it will ever be admitted anywhere. Which - doesn't seem very plausible to me.

There are only 17 Outer Planes; Roy's alignment would have to match one of them, because you can't not have an alignment. The deva only got "first look" because Lawful Good was the alignment Roy declared himself to be. It was his goal, and the review was to see if he had really met that goal. If he didn't, that would mean he actually had some other alignment, in which case the powers-that-be on that plane would have been happy to have him. Generally speaking, a character who really is alignment X on the inside will be admitted to plane X with no problems, except in certain special circumstances (Eugene, for example).

[Ruck]

I'm just imagining... Xykon is finally destroyed; Eugene is watching from the waiting area on Celestia. There's a "DING!" Eugene: "Yeah! Finally, I'm in!"

Then the Deva says, "Okay! Time for your review, whoops, off you go. Elsewhere."

I've been saying that I'm waiting for something like this to happen. I can't square Eugene's alignment as Lawful Good with the selfish, irresponsible jerk who has nothing but disdain for the people he's supposed to have the most obligation toward, and every time we've seen in him on panel in life or death he's acted this way. He reads much more like True Neutral to me, not actively evil but totally selfish and self-involved.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've been saying that I'm waiting for something like this to happen. I can't square Eugene's alignment as Lawful Good with the selfish, irresponsible jerk who has nothing but disdain for the people he's supposed to have the most obligation toward, and every time we've seen in him on panel in life or death he's acted this way. He reads much more like True Neutral to me, not actively evil but totally selfish and self-involved.

The problem with that point of view is that Eugene's life is an entire pizza, and you are basing your judgment on a slice or two.

But Eugene isn't off the hook, LG jerk being a valid status or not.

The point that the review was never completed (thank you bunsen_h) isn't going to be good for Eugene if he really thinks that he's getting to Celestia, since after the review and his being put on hold, he's been up to some questionable shenanigans.

Given that the story isn't over yet, I don't get this rush to judgment (yeah, pun intended).

[Peelee]

I'm surprised that people think Serini is evil based off a single bonk and a lie.

[Liquor Box]

Serini has reason to consider the Tomb her own jurisdiction, though, which enables her to treat lurking around it armed and with the explicit intent of locating the Gate a crime and dealing with the armed group as apprehending criminals. Also, if law enforcement officers were to use tranquilizer darts to temporarily neutralize armed and potentially dangerous individuals they intend to arrest, that would not be Evil and definitely not more Evil than using more violent methods and harming or risking to harm the subjects. Not to mention that she intends to release them once she ensures they cease to be a threat to the Gate and her amnesia potion explicitly does not make them lose all their memories, their personality &c.

A few points:
- just because she considers it her own doesn't make it so.
- Law enforcement doesn't use tranquilizers and the like for a reason. There are reasons baton's (of course Serini did use the equivilent of a baton later, for no good reason), pepper spray and tasers are preferred - probably mostly because they are less dangerous and more harmful than tranquilizers. Even then, those means aren't usually the first point of call - usually warnings and such come first. Some people would even see these less harmful measure (like tasers) as too brutal.
- Even if the area was somehow Serini's personal property, that still doesn't justify kidnapping. If you drugged and kidnapped people on your property I don't think that would be justified.

But as I've said before, I could almost accept that Serini reluctantly kidnapped her victims because it was the only possible way she had to accomplish some greater goal. But if that was the case one might expect her to be remorseful or apologetic - "I'm sorry, i know it'snot ok to drug and kidnap people but I needed to do it because...". Instead, she went out of her way to mock her victims, teasing them with possible freedom.

I'm going to propose that Serini may fall into the trope of "does evil stuff with the best intentions". She intends to defend her Gate, and the end justifies the means.
What that implies for her alignment is an interesting D&D discussion. Are you judged (by deities with knowledge of your thoughts and soul) by your actions, or by your intentions?
And we saw at the end that Miko, perhaps, gained a measure of redemption. She was going to be with Windstriker, after all, per word of Soon. She was so very wrong about so many things, and fell quite hard, but in the end: I don't think the Paladins would usher her to the Lower Planes. Neutral planes, maybe.

Again, then why taunt her victims?

When Rafiki hits Simba with his stick, is that an evil act?

Your mileage may vary on whether it is or not. Since Lion King was released corporal punishment became illegal in my country, so I suppose society may look at it as the sort of thing which was ok by the standards of its time, but probably not any more. Personally, I had no problem with it though.

Pretty different context though. Rafiki and Simba knew each other well, had a relationship of trust, Simba always had the power to leave the situation (he was no chained up), and Rafiki was genuinely trying to help Simba at the time. That's pretty different from conking someone you've already drugged and kidnapped for you own amusement.

To be clear, I don't think the bang was a big deal on its own - if it was only slightly evil, and certainly not a strong indication of overall alignment. But it is part of a pattern of pretty poor treatment for prisoners who she probably had no right to kidnap at all, but even if she did have a right she should be pretty apologetic about it.

Why why why why are these discussions always about women?

Miko, Hilgya, Bandana, Oona, and now... Serini.

I swear, if we find out that MitD identifies as female in the same panel she eats Xykon, the argument about whether she’s good or evil is going to spin so hard we risk collapsing the universe into a singularity.

I agree it does seem to be a pattern.

In terms of the why, it seems people have a lot of trouble accepting that a woman can be evil. If a man in the same situation seemed evil nobody would deny it. That's my guess anyway.

Edit:
Rereading your post, I should clarify that I don't necessarily think all those people are evil:
- Hilgya seemed to have been, being an active member of the linear guild and killing Durkon. A good example of the phenomena I mention above where people seem to fall over themselves to make excuses for them (the femal frost giant being similar0
- Miko is complex, so different people may have different perspecitves.
- Oona we don't have much info on, but reasonable to presume she is evil (until proven otherwise) because she's helping the group literally called team evil.
- Not sure why anyone would say Bandana was evil.

while Hilgya, Serini, Andy or Miko are more allies to the heroes or neutral (on the antagonist_protagonist spectrum, not the alignment grid).

Like Belkar.....

[Ruck]

The problem with that point of view is that Eugene's life is an entire pizza, and you are basing your judgment on a slice or two.

But Eugene is not a real person and those scenes are not chosen at random. He's a fictional character, created by an author, who deliberately chose to portray him acting a certain way, consistently, 100% of the time, in life, in death, to his wife, to his son, before he carelessly killed his other son, after he did so, etc. etc. (Indeed, if you really want to get meta-textual with it, you could make the case that, being a fictional character, he doesn't exist outside of those strips.) I don't think the argument that "Eugene behaves an entirely different way most of his life, and the author just chose scenes to portray him with a different set of values, attitudes, and actions as misdirection" holds much water.

[Peelee]

But Eugene is not a real person and those scenes are not chosen at random. He's a fictional character, created by an author, who deliberately chose to portray him acting a certain way, consistently, 100% of the time, in life, in death, to his wife, to his son, before he carelessly killed his other son, after he did so, etc. etc. (Indeed, if you really want to get meta-textual with it, you could make the case that, being a fictional character, he doesn't exist outside of those strips.) I don't think the argument that "Eugene behaves an entirely different way most of his life, and the author just chose scenes to portray him with a different set of values, attitudes, and actions as misdirection" holds much water.

Conversely, "the character is a pizza and you've only seen a slice" is pretty much exactly what The Giant himself has said before:

I wrote a very long post defending Therkla's Neutrality, but I decided to delete it. It doesn't matter if anyone else agrees, and I doubt anyone will ever be convinced anyway. The characters in the comic are not meant to be examples or guides on what is or is not such-and-such alignment. As I've said before:

And In the end, alignment is a murky cocktail of temperament, goals, actions, and results. There is no clearly defined formula for which of those counts the most. But self-image certainly matters

So when I say, "This character has this alignment," just read it as, "This character was written with this point of view in mind, and if you could see their entire life rather than this small sliver, that would be more obvious."

That being said, he's notably never spoken on Eugene's alignment, but "the slice vs the pizza" is a fair argument.

[Pirate ninja]

I'm surprised that people think Serini is evil based off a single bonk and a lie.

A single bonk, two lies (the other being about poison), one drugging, one kidnapping, a period of imprisonment, mockery, some teasing with promises of freedom (which overlaps with one of the lies to be fair), and a promise of a second drugging to come. Not bad for someone whose appeared in three or four strips - probably a higher rate of mischief to airtime than Belkar.

[Ruck]

Conversely, "the character is a pizza and you've only seen a slice" is pretty much exactly what The Giant himself has said before:

That being said, he's notably never spoken on Eugene's alignment, but "the slice vs the pizza" is a fair argument.

Well, this brings up the question of alignment as descriptive vs. prescriptive. The Giant also says that when he refers to a character's alignment, he's referring to the perspective they view the world from and act from-- prescriptive-- and in that sense, we might see a slice of their decisions that looks more like another alignment than that their alignment. But that's different than looking at the sum total of someone's actions in their life and coming to a conclusion-- descriptive-- about how they lived their lives, regardless of how they thought they lived them.

Also, I can't really think of any examples besides Eugene where a character's supposed alignment didn't match with their actions. People argued if Therkla was True Neutral since she was working for a clearly Lawful Evil guy, or if Shojo was Chaotic Good given all the methods he used in ruling Azure City and the Sapphire Guard, but their actions don't contradict their stated alignments, either, and are quite explainable as fitting in their alignments. I'm just wondering what the actions are that make Eugene either Lawful or Good, because all I've ever seen is a selfish and self-interested guy who regularly abandons his responsibilities.

(If we're talking Giant quotes, we also have to mention that he pointedly avoided confirming Eugene's alignment and was rather coy about whether Eugene would actually be judged as Lawful Good in the end.)

[BruceGee]

New topic: Some people here have theorized that Serini captured the paladins because, like Girard, she distrusted Soon and thought he sent them there to interfere with her gate. They have further theorized that O-chul may be able to convince her that they're on her side once he explains all the facts about Xykon, the fall of Azure City, the gods' panic, and so forth.

Here is my alternate theory: Serini knows everything that we, the readers, know AND THEN SOME. After all, she would have known when Azure City fell, and (as has already been discussed) she apparently has a dragon or some other high-level mage-type on her payroll who can scry. If not, she could have gotten in touch with Girard's clan and asked them to scry for her.

Furthermore, since she's a high-level Rogue, she isn't just going to notice two paladins camping out on a ledge, eavesdrop invisibly for a few minutes until she overhears them talking about locating the gate, and then take them out. I'll bet she observed everything going on in the valley for days or weeks before making her move.

She probably knows about the gods' plan to destroy the world due to the "existing" comment. I think she considers Roy to be the paladins' "boss," not Hinjo or Soon. She may even know about the Order disabling her teleport trap.

I can't imagine what her reasons for taking out the paladins actually are. I just don't think that talking her out of it will be as simple as "give her some more facts." I think she's got most of the facts, and her plan makes sense to her because of them.

Furthermore, I think we will find this out in the next comic.

[Snails]

Here is my alternate theory: Serini knows everything that we, the readers, know AND THEN SOME.

[...]

Furthermore, I think we will find this out in the next comic.

I think you are on the right track.

Clearly Serini could have ignored the pair of paladins. The worse thing that could happen is they are spotted and murdered.

What did she gain by nabbing them? This is likely to be something in the spirit of "they were in real danger of getting spotted, so I just saved their lives" or "Greenhilt will need your help, so I am dropping you two where and when he needs you".

Serini may not be nice, but her actions and even her story about the trolls hint that she has Good-ish intentions as a significant motivator.

I think it is worth revisiting her conversation in this comic. What is Serini doing but mocking Hinjo for being a LG who is somewhat myopic about how morality plays out in the real world? That is perfectly consistent with someone Wise But Good.

[KorvinStarmast]

Here is my alternate theory: Serini knows everything that we, the readers, know AND THEN SOME.

And, importantly, it appears that she remains committed to defending the gate, even if 'the original plan' (as she mentions in panel 2) was for the gates to be well enough defended without her. Her casual "I belong up here with the monsters now" seems to me to have a slight double meaning.

Her monsters defend the gate.
She is up here, where she belongs, defending the gate.

But it might just be her self deprecating sense of humor regarding her looks now that she's got the troll augment going on.

Mind you, if she breaks out into a chorus of "It's not easy being green" I'll probably gag.

[bunsen_h]

So what would happen if someone who wasn't maimed and close to death got an infusion of fresh troll blood?