The Astral Plane?

[Temperjoke]

I personally like the idea of a triple layer sort of thing (admittedly, I'm not versed in most of D&D's history, so this is just my observation of 5e). The core of it is the Material plane, with the feywild and shadowfell directly linked. Then you have the elemental planes surrounding that core, with the Ethereal plane oozing around between the two. Then around that you have the Outer planes, with the Astral plane oozing around between those layers. They aren't perfectly solid layers, so one can go directly from one spot to another section via magic.

[Millstone85]

The map in the DMG is conceptual, not literal... The inner and outer planets are not 'around' the infinite prime in any meaningful way.

This. There is a passage in the DMG that says as much, planar models are just that, models.

Indeed. The Great Wheel isn't even the only existing planar model, it's just the most prevalent one because it's mainstream in Sigil.

Technically correct but, in the recent words of Deerie the Cherub, yeah no, sorry guys. This cosmology is all about planes surrounding other planes and the pretty maps you can make out of it.

It goes inner->ethereal->prime->astral->outer on some dimensional axis; and positive->feywyld->prime->shadowfel->negative on another (more or less)

So the World Axis from 4e, with the Material and its echoes being sandwiched between an elemental blob and a spiritual blob, except that now each blob has been restored to its four cardinal points (fire/air/water/earth for one, law/good/chaos/evil for the other).

[Segev]

This is a subset of a subject I have been thinking on off and on for a while now.

Things on the Outer Planes (including the Astral) are made up of different material than the Material Plane's occupants. In fact, they're not made up of "material" at all, but rather philosophical energies. There are analogs to all of the material "things" because most are agnostic to the philosophies of the realms, and the philosophies are shaped by minds that originate from the Material, but the fire burning in your camp on the Outlands is not made of elemental fire; it's some aspect of neutrality forming into a good facsimile thereof.

Astral projection works because the Astral Plane is the Plane of Thought. Thinking creatures already exist to some degree there, even if the color pools separate the silver sea from the material plane. In descriptions that include a "near" and "far" astral, the color pools would be on the borders. In those without, the nature of the Plane of Thought is likely something that causes it to have concepts be geography and direction. So normally, a creature's mind is making up myriad, possibly wildly-separated points in the Plane. Either way, astrally projecting pulls your thoughts together and shapes the geography of the silver sea such that you exist in your astral form there. Your body remains material, and you're just allowing your mind, already on the astral plane, to be aware of it and explore it more directly. The silver cord that holds your soul to your body tethers your thoughts to a material world you cannot perceive. When you go to other Outer Planes, your astral form pulls in concepts of that plane to form a philosophical body out of them. When you go to Inner Planes (including other layers of the Prime), the spell is doing the hard work of pulling material together to make a faux body to possess.

Actually plane shifting, then, where you physically go somewhere...? You're not really physically moving. You're re-aligning your very material essence, at least when going to outer planes. (Inner planes it's more a matter of tuning yourself to the right elemental sources, because you can be material on any of the elemental planes; they are planes of matter and real energy, not thought and philosophy.)

So when you plane shift to the Astral Plane, you're actively altering your very physical being to be a pure mental construct. You're not so much "physically there" as you've changed your physical body from supporting a mind to your mind supporting a physical body. It's like "plane shifting" into a computer game that exists only as a model in a suite of hardware. And the difference between astral projecting and plane shifting is the difference between a full-dive VR and actually digitizing the body.

There are a lot of holes and problems with this formulation; I'm still working on it. Most notably the fact that plane shift is apparently easier than astral projection, when it seems the opposite should be the case.




Incidentally, I'm surprised more wizards don't approach the immortality problem by plane shifting to the Astral, building themselves a heavily-defended mausoleum, and then casting astral projection to leave their body in suspended, ageless animation in the timeless silver sea while they go about their business on the Prime or any other plane they choose.

[Naanomi]

from 4e, with the Material and its echoes being sandwiched between an elemental blob and a spiritual blob, except that now each blob has been restored to its four cardinal points (fire/air/water/earth for one, law/good/chaos/evil for the other).

Well... More the 2e model... Where the spiritual blob leads to a distinct 'place' instead of just unconnected islands floating around the astral, and the inner planes being somewhat contained in (infinite) configurations

But the broad 'elemental creating substance that forms the prime that has inhabitants that create thoughts and beliefs that form the outer planes' has been the model in some form since... Just pre-planescape 2e really.

Although this is more like the 1e model in some ways, with the positive and negative energy planes overlaying everything instead of being attached to the inner planes like 2e

[Unoriginal]

Incidentally, I'm surprised more wizards don't approach the immortality problem by plane shifting to the Astral, building themselves a heavily-defended mausoleum, and then casting astral projection to leave their body in suspended, ageless animation in the timeless silver sea while they go about their business on the Prime or any other plane they choose.

Most wizards would be too worried about the various things that could get to their body while they do that to try.

Some wizards probably still do it, because arrogance and "but think of the potential!" craziness are as much parts of wizardry as magic is, but they just as probably get used as object lessons by other wizards when they get eaten by Astral Dreadnoughts or have a bunch of adventurers pillage their mausoleums.

[Segev]

Most wizards would be too worried about the various things that could get to their body while they do that to try.

Some wizards probably still do it, because arrogance and "but think of the potential!" craziness are as much parts of wizardry as magic is, but they probably get used as object lessons by other wizards when they get eaten by Astral Dreadnoughts or have a bunch of adventurers pillage their mausoleums.

Not sure how a private redoubt on the Astral is less secure than a private Demiplane, which most variations on this recommend. Just set up your defenses to include alarms if anything is coming for your body so that you are alerted and can return to defend yourself. Anything that STILL can get to you could get you even if you were in your body.

[Unoriginal]

Not sure how a private redoubt on the Astral is less secure than a private Demiplane, which most variations on this recommend. Just set up your defenses to include alarms if anything is coming for your body so that you are alerted and can return to defend yourself. Anything that STILL can get to you could get you even if you were in your body.

A private Demiplane is much harder to access than any specific point in the Astral Sea.

[Naanomi]

A private Demiplane is much harder to access than any specific point in the Astral Sea.

The deep ethereal is historically harder to navigate than the astral, which makes it more secure. Ethereal demiplanes are also traditionally easier to make stable than astral demiplanes (which tend to rely on psionics to create, and only last at most as long as the creating mind survives)

[Segev]

A private Demiplane is much harder to access than any specific point in the Astral Sea.

I'm not so sure about that. "I cast plane shift to the demiplane of the Wizard Wally," will take you to a random point on that demiplane and will put you no further than the edge of the demiplane from Wally's body or whatever else he's protecting there. "I cast plane shift to the Astral Plane, where I know Wizard Wally has a tower-lab," puts you somewhere on the Astral Plane, and now you have to FIND the tower-lab of Wizard Wally.

The deep ethereal is historically harder to navigate than the astral, which makes it more secure. Ethereal demiplanes are also traditionally easier to make stable than astral demiplanes (which tend to rely on psionics to create, and only last at most as long as the creating mind survives)

This is interesting; I didn't know that demiplanes on the Astral were possible.

Also, if the wizard (or psion) is using the demiplane to house his body, presumably he doesn't much care what happens to the demiplane after he dies.

[Naanomi]

This is interesting; I didn't know that demiplanes on the Astral were possible

The genesis metacreativity power could create them (including a few creatures that could use it as a psi-like ability). I think that some of the time demiplanes from Chronomancer manifest in the Astral as well (the ones that expressly leave the temporal prime/temporal energy plane)

[Unoriginal]

The deep ethereal is historically harder to navigate than the astral, which makes it more secure.

But it also makes it harder for the wizard who wants to build a sanctum there.

[jjordan]

This is a subset of a subject I have been thinking on off and on for a while now.

Things on the Outer Planes (including the Astral) are made up of different material than the Material Plane's occupants. In fact, they're not made up of "material" at all, but rather philosophical energies. There are analogs to all of the material "things" because most are agnostic to the philosophies of the realms, and the philosophies are shaped by minds that originate from the Material, but the fire burning in your camp on the Outlands is not made of elemental fire; it's some aspect of neutrality forming into a good facsimile thereof.

I think of it as different planes shape the base energy (for lack of a better word) into different arrangements. I compound this by saying that a consciousness applies filters/interprets sensory inputs to make things comprehensible. So fire from a material plane may be conflated with fire from an elemental plane by a consciousness which is attempting to make sense of what it perceives without having access to all the data (as true sight might provide).

Astral projection works because the Astral Plane is the Plane of Thought. Thinking creatures already exist to some degree there, even if the color pools separate the silver sea from the material plane. In descriptions that include a "near" and "far" astral, the color pools would be on the borders. In those without, the nature of the Plane of Thought is likely something that causes it to have concepts be geography and direction. So normally, a creature's mind is making up myriad, possibly wildly-separated points in the Plane. Either way, astrally projecting pulls your thoughts together and shapes the geography of the silver sea such that you exist in your astral form there. Your body remains material, and you're just allowing your mind, already on the astral plane, to be aware of it and explore it more directly. The silver cord that holds your soul to your body tethers your thoughts to a material world you cannot perceive. When you go to other Outer Planes, your astral form pulls in concepts of that plane to form a philosophical body out of them. When you go to Inner Planes (including other layers of the Prime), the spell is doing the hard work of pulling material together to make a faux body to possess.

I like this but if falls apart for me, a little, because traditional astral projection was more about moving the soul/consciousness around the material world, time, and only in some cases through space to other realities. It particularly falls apart, for me, when you get to the other planes. I can accept that a magic spell allows for the creation of a new physical form but really feel like it ought to be harder. And the implications are... interesting. I mean, if I plane shift to the same plane I can form a new body which has all the abilities of my regular body but is timeless? Obviously there's a mechanism in place to prevent that. Which raises other interesting questions.

In my conception of the cosmology threads of reality are somewhat divergent. So the plane of elemental fire is very different from a material plane and it takes work/energy for a creature to exist on a non-native thread. The more alien the threads are, the more work it takes. So a lot of creatures might want to remain in a non-corporeal form. And sufficiently powerful creatures will warp the reality around them, possibly even destroying it if they remain long enough (e.g. gods).

Actually plane shifting, then, where you physically go somewhere...? You're not really physically moving. You're re-aligning your very material essence, at least when going to outer planes. (Inner planes it's more a matter of tuning yourself to the right elemental sources, because you can be material on any of the elemental planes; they are planes of matter and real energy, not thought and philosophy.)

So when you plane shift to the Astral Plane, you're actively altering your very physical being to be a pure mental construct. You're not so much "physically there" as you've changed your physical body from supporting a mind to your mind supporting a physical body. It's like "plane shifting" into a computer game that exists only as a model in a suite of hardware. And the difference between astral projecting and plane shifting is the difference between a full-dive VR and actually digitizing the body.

There are a lot of holes and problems with this formulation; I'm still working on it. Most notably the fact that plane shift is apparently easier than astral projection, when it seems the opposite should be the case.

Yes!

Good stuff.

[JackPhoenix]

Incidentally, I'm surprised more wizards don't approach the immortality problem by plane shifting to the Astral, building themselves a heavily-defended mausoleum, and then casting astral projection to leave their body in suspended, ageless animation in the timeless silver sea while they go about their business on the Prime or any other plane they choose.

That may be because it doesn't work:

If you enter a new plane or return to the plane you were on when casting this spell, your body and possessions are transported along the silver cord, allowing you to re-enter your body as you enter the new plane.

I'm not so sure about that. "I cast plane shift to the demiplane of the Wizard Wally," will take you to a random point on that demiplane and will put you no further than the edge of the demiplane from Wally's body or whatever else he's protecting there. "I cast plane shift to the Astral Plane, where I know Wizard Wally has a tower-lab," puts you somewhere on the Astral Plane, and now you have to FIND the tower-lab of Wizard Wally.

That's great. Now, do you have the metal rod that serves as material component for Plane Shift attuned to Wally's demiplane? How did you get it? Unlike its Astral-attuned counterpart, that one is propably much harder to get. And if you want to shift to Wally's tower, you'll end up in or near Wally's tower, not in a random spot anywhere on Astral plane.

[Naanomi]

That's great. Now, do you have the metal rod that serves as material component for Plane Shift attuned to Wally's demiplane?

No, I used Wish to ignore the material component

[Unoriginal]

No, I used Wish to ignore the material component

That means you're impressively more powerful than the weakest person able to find Wally's Astral Crypt.

[Naanomi]

That means you're impressively more powerful than the weakest person able to find Wally's Astral Crypt.

Perhaps, though I would suggest not more powerful than someone who should be hunting down 'I decided to live forever by creating a demiplane and fortifying my body into it' would/should be

[Segev]

That may be because it doesn't work:

Huh, that's different. My mistake; earlier editions created a new body on new planes, and only put you in your own real body if you returned to the plane you'd left it on.

[Witty Username]

Not true in the 5e version of astral projection, where "your body and possessions are transported along the silver cord".

Which is a whole lot less interesting than what you just described.

Hm, I share your frustration. I must have deleted the 5e version from my mind after reading it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Huh, that's different. My mistake; earlier editions created a new body on new planes, and only put you in your own real body if you returned to the plane you'd left it on.

IMO, this change is good. No more "I hide out and let my astral body take the risks. No more worrying about duplicating equipment cheese.

Spoiler

Show

On the main topic, I collapsed the planes heavily. The "travel" portions of the planes are now the Shadow Border, which lubricates the intersection of the Mortal (or material) and the other planes. All abilities that reference astral or ethereal travel refer to this plane instead. Time passes, but people don't age. And time passes inconsistently, at a rate that ebbs and flows sporadically.

All the upper (and most of the lower) planes are now the Astral. Since I ditched cosmological alignment, devils, angels, and gods all live there, but all require energy input to stay coherent. None of them are truly physical, and the bodies they wear on the mortal are created by the spells that transport them. But they're basically just housings so killing one on the mortal doesn't generally happen. Demons still occupy the Abyss, but that's more like a wound/prison. And they all got there by choice or by being eaten by a demon.

The feywild and shadowfell (but quite different), plus all afterlives are now part of the Shadow proper, which only exists around inhabited planets. As is the Waste, basically the Abyss's influence and beachhead for demons. Spreads when people summon them or undead or do blood magic. It's basically hell. But you can end up there just by dying in the wrong spot. If you've been real faithful, a god's agent might try to intercept and lead you to one of their enclaves elsewhere. The Shadow proper is malleable somewhat like limbo. That's where the dead get their "new" bodies from.

Demi planes are all Astral now, unless you're special and make an abyssal or elemental one

[jjordan]

So I've read the 2e Planescape: A Guide to the Astral Planes, the 4e Manual of the Planes, and 4e The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Plane as well as re-reading the 5e DMG sections on the planes, and the astral plan in particular.

I'm forced to admit WotC did a good job of sticking to their core 5e design philosophy ('keep it simple, stupid') in regards to this. Rather than making the different planes mechanically different (as in previous editions) they are simply the same with some different window dressing and two or three different environmental effects. Combat on the astral plane is the same as combat on the material plane except for the silver cord variation.

Not my preference, but I'll withdraw to the hombrew area to address my concerns. On the bright side, the Manual of the Planes provided some good ideas on homebrewing your own cosmologies.

[Unoriginal]

Perhaps, though I would suggest not more powerful than someone who should be hunting down 'I decided to live forever by creating a demiplane and fortifying my body into it' would/should be

Indeed. The point was that doing there was a reason why going through the whole demiplane thing is both preferable and requires more power than just building something in the Astral Sea.

[Naanomi]

Indeed. The point was that doing there was a reason why going through the whole demiplane thing is both preferable and requires more power than just building something in the Astral Sea.

Seems like a bit of a tactical decision... Safety from being bothered by riffraff, but more easily pinpointable by wish-capable opponents

[Unoriginal]

Seems like a bit of a tactical decision... Safety from being bothered by riffraff, but more easily pinpointable by wish-capable opponents

Anyone capable of Plane Shift can get to something built in the Astral, and it's just as vulnerable to Wish as the demiplane is.

[Naanomi]

Anyone capable of Plane Shift can get to something built in the Astral, and it's just as vulnerable to Wish as the demiplane is.

Fair, I forget how accurate Plane Shift is in this edition

[Segev]

Fair, I forget how accurate Plane Shift is in this edition

It's not, particularly, but their point is that it's hard to plane shift to a specific demiplane because of the material component requirement requiring an unknown amount of research to discover.

[Naanomi]

It's not, particularly, but their point is that it's hard to plane shift to a specific demiplane because of the material component requirement requiring an unknown amount of research to discover.

Which gets ignored with Wish

[Segev]

Which gets ignored with Wish

Yes...

The point being discussed is whether a character who cannot yet cast wish but can cast plane shift is a greater threat to somebody who has a demiplane vs. somebody with their sanctum secreted somewhere in the Astral Plane.

Wish means you don't actually care whether your quarry is on the Astral or in a private demiplane or hiding in the basement right next door: you get transported to his lair perfectly by your wish. Plane shift, on the other hand, means that if you CAN figure out the material component for the demiplane, you get much closer to his lair than if his lair is on the Astral. On the Astral, you appear hundreds of miles away in a random direction. On a demiplane, it's probably small enough that you can see the lair from wherever you appear. But, getting that material component knowledge is nontrivial, which makes the question of whether the demiplane is more secure not a definite "no," but instead a probable "yes." Depending on how hard it is to research what special material that forked rod needs to be made of.

[Naanomi]

YesOn the Astral, you appear hundreds of miles away in a random direction.

My reading of Planeshift makes it seem *much* more accurate than that

[Unoriginal]

Yes...

The point being discussed is whether a character who cannot yet cast wish but can cast plane shift is a greater threat to somebody who has a demiplane vs. somebody with their sanctum secreted somewhere in the Astral Plane.

Wish means you don't actually care whether your quarry is on the Astral or in a private demiplane or hiding in the basement right next door: you get transported to his lair perfectly by your wish. Plane shift, on the other hand, means that if you CAN figure out the material component for the demiplane, you get much closer to his lair than if his lair is on the Astral. On the Astral, you appear hundreds of miles away in a random direction. On a demiplane, it's probably small enough that you can see the lair from wherever you appear. But, getting that material component knowledge is nontrivial, which makes the question of whether the demiplane is more secure not a definite "no," but instead a probable "yes." Depending on how hard it is to research what special material that forked rod needs to be made of.

My reading of Planeshift makes it seem *much* more accurate than that

The spell's description says "You can specify a target destination in general terms, such as The City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire or the palace of Dispater on the second level of The Nine Hells, and you appear in or near that destination. If you are trying to reach The City of Brass, for example, you might arrive in its Street of Steel, before its Gate of Ashes, or looking at the city from across The Sea of Fire, at the DM's discretion."

So if you want to go to Wally's Astral Crypt, you will be in the Astral Sea either in the crypt or near it. Arguably, even if you have no info on the crypt except that it's Wally's.

So basically Wally's Astral Crypt is vulnerable from anyone who can get a tuning fork tuned to the Astral Plane.

[Tanarii]

So if you want to go to Wally's Astral Crypt, you will be in the Astral Sea either in the crypt or near it. Arguably, even if you have no info on the crypt except that it's Wally's.

It'd need to be an Astral Crypt as well. What if it isn't a Crypt, but a Lair? Or Bungalow? Or Citadel?

Or possibly clearly named "Wally's Astral Crypt" by a large number of sentient beings, like the example given.