Girl Genius XXIX: A giant corkboard of continuity madness

[otakuryoga]

"stuff" you say?
i LIKE "stuff"!

[Ellen]

Higgs reminds me of a bit in the Hidden Legacy series by Ilona Andrews (paraphrasing as best I remember):

Official: How did you get this critical information from [extremely selfish character who would have never handed it on in a million years besides having just been murdered].

Main Character: He realized the political implications of what he had and his conscience and devotion to good citizenship made him take steps to protect it and see it was handed over to the proper people in the event of his death.

Official: I knew him. Try again.

Main Character: We used a crack team of ferrets armed with state of the art technology to break in and download his hard drive.

Side Character: And a ferret-badger.

Main Character: A crack team of ferrets and one ferret-badger.

Official: Right. Good citizenship and conscience it is.

Just replace "Good citizenship" and "conscience" with "dry rot." Even in Sparkland, sometimes you have to go with the story that makes sense even if you know it couldn't have happened that way.

[Divayth Fyr]

Albia's reason for possibly despising Klaus (the actual quote is "As long as Albia lives, England is closed to Klaus.", no mention of any sort of dislike) is... well, it can be reasonably inferred to have very, very little to do with disapproving of his experiments.

We do know she didn't approve of the experiments - once she learned of them.

The Baron, in other words, is a classic example of a BBEG who has convinced themselves that they can do anything, because their motives are for the greater good. And I'm going to draw a distinction between destroying a city full of inhuman monsters and drilling holes in people's heads.

Didn't the world kinda prove him right? As long as he was present, Europa had - relative - peace. Everything went to hell once they removed him from the picture...

I'd like to remind you that Albia, who is not entirely nice, despises the Baron.

All other things aside, what would that prove exactly? Lucrezia seems to have a similiar reaction for both Barry and Albia - I don't think they represent the same character type.

[Radar]

"stuff" you say?
i LIKE "stuff"!

Let's just hope it is not "perfectly serviceable" as the dry rations.

Just replace "Good citizenship" and "conscience" with "dry rot." Even in Sparkland, sometimes you have to go with the story that makes sense even if you know it couldn't have happened that way.

I would say it is more of a "do not pry into details" situation. Just as Martellus was struck by an invisible hand back in the Corbetite monastery.

[TeChameleon]

We do know she didn't approve of the experiments - once she learned of them.

Ah, point conceded- I'd forgotten about that particular exchange.

Didn't the world kinda prove him right? As long as he was present, Europa had - relative - peace. Everything went to hell once they removed him from the picture...

That's the thing- I don't think that characterizing Europa (at least, while there is no Storm King, Heterodyne Boys, Klaus, or similar) as an 'apocalyptic hellscape' would be unfair, and might even be a bit of an understatement. Given the generally light-hearted tone of Girl Genius... and the fact that the story tends to focus on characters capable of defending themselves so thoroughly that entire towns are devastated... it's easy to overlook the fact that life for everyday people would suuuuuuuuuuck.

I'm not saying that brain-coring is the best alternative... or even a good alternative... but it's not hard to see why it would be considered a viable alternative, especially given that death isn't necessarily permanent, or even that much of an impediment to plans to SHOW THEM, SHOW THEM ALL! I dunno. I can understand why the Baron would feel he has to do something, and given the unique idiom of his own personal Spark, which lends itself so strongly to the interpretation and study of the Spark of others, I can understand why the 'something' he did took the form that it did.

Also, colour me intrigued by 'stuff'

[Mechalich]

That's the thing- I don't think that characterizing Europa (at least, while there is no Storm King, Heterodyne Boys, Klaus, or similar) as an 'apocalyptic hellscape' would be unfair, and might even be a bit of an understatement. Given the generally light-hearted tone of Girl Genius... and the fact that the story tends to focus on characters capable of defending themselves so thoroughly that entire towns are devastated... it's easy to overlook the fact that life for everyday people would suuuuuuuuuuck.

GirlGenius is, in many ways a superhero setting - it's just that Sparks are all 'intellect-based' superheroes like Ant Man or Dr. Octopus and so forth and so they require a resource base to fully unleash their powers. These superhumans have basically divided up the map into fiefdoms based on their respective power levels, with a lot of unclaimed territory that's basically devastated in between. Life in any given fiefdom is basically determined by the personality and resources of its superhuman ruler, and this ranges from mostly-benevolent-but-weird to lovecraftian-depostism and anywhere in between.

The Baron established 'peace' by literally claiming rulership on a layer above all the established fiefdoms and telling them 'no fighting.' This probably didn't help the people living in realms of horror very much, but it definitely served to help protect the nicer places from outside antagonism - including places like Mechanicsburg that happened to be temporarily without a superhuman despot for whatever reason. And also, over time as various truly monstrous superhuman despots couldn't hold themselves back and antagonized the Baron they were wiped out and replaced by less horrible superhuman despots of his choosing.

I'm not saying that brain-coring is the best alternative... or even a good alternative... but it's not hard to see why it would be considered a viable alternative, especially given that death isn't necessarily permanent, or even that much of an impediment to plans to SHOW THEM, SHOW THEM ALL! I dunno. I can understand why the Baron would feel he has to do something, and given the unique idiom of his own personal Spark, which lends itself so strongly to the interpretation and study of the Spark of others, I can understand why the 'something' he did took the form that it did.

Also, if Klaus could succeed - which may or may not be possible, only the Foglios know - he could have potentially discovered a way to induce genius without madness, which would potentially transform Europa into a genuine Steampunk Utopia. So if you're an ends justify the means type of guy like the Baron, the theoretical ends of that particular line of research justify just about anything.

[Shining Wrath]

We do know she didn't approve of the experiments - once she learned of them.


Didn't the world kinda prove him right? As long as he was present, Europa had - relative - peace. Everything went to hell once they removed him from the picture...

<SNIP>.

The Baron consolidated power into his own largish hands. And then he vanished, and Der Kestle took out a fair part of his power defending Mechanicsburg in its inimitable fashion. Leaving a power vacuum, which grasping nobility despises. His methods were effective but doomed in the long run; anything depending on one person holding all the levers of power is fragile.

Discussion of what build a stable peace across a continent would violate site rules, I'm afraid.

---

Changing subjects, I propose "Get a lot of dry rot in places like this" or perhaps "Dry rot? In stone?" for a thread title.

[slayerx]

The Baron consolidated power into his own largish hands. And then he vanished, and Der Kestle took out a fair part of his power defending Mechanicsburg in its inimitable fashion. Leaving a power vacuum, which grasping nobility despises. His methods were effective but doomed in the long run; anything depending on one person holding all the levers of power is fragile.

Discussion of what build a stable peace across a continent would violate site rules, I'm afraid.

---

Changing subjects, I propose "Get a lot of dry rot in places like this" or perhaps "Dry rot? In stone?" for a thread title.

Actually i think the Baron may have had different long term plans that would have brought more stability; Gil and the students. Klaus took the students as hostages but they were the future rulers of Europa and he decided to handle raising and educating them. Not only that but he inserted his own son among them without them knowing about it. As we saw this resulted in Gil building a very good relationship with the students. The Baron had set up his heir to become friends with the future rulers of Europa. Heck he was even making marriage arrangements for the older students; would not be a surprise if the people he was matching the students with were among those who actually accept his rule

Basically, by the time Gil needed to inherit the empire there wouldn't really be much serious opposition to his rule because all of the other major powers within the empire would pass on to those who be on good terms with him personally. The Baron was working on making sure that the powers of europa would end up in the hands of those who would want to keep the empire going and would not create meaningless resistance against it. Sure there would still be those who don't get with the program and oppose him, but the less opposition there is to the empire the easier it would be to maintain... The only problem is that the whole thing fell apart before the students could have claimed a right to their lands

[Shining Wrath]

Actually i think the Baron may have had different long term plans that would have brought more stability; Gil and the students. Klaus took the students as hostages but they were the future rulers of Europa and he decided to handle raising and educating them. Not only that but he inserted his own son among them without them knowing about it. As we saw this resulted in Gil building a very good relationship with the students. The Baron had set up his heir to become friends with the future rulers of Europa. Heck he was even making marriage arrangements for the older students; would not be a surprise if the people he was matching the students with were among those who actually accept his rule

Basically, by the time Gil needed to inherit the empire there wouldn't really be much serious opposition to his rule because all of the other major powers within the empire would pass on to those who be on good terms with him personally. The Baron was working on making sure that the powers of europa would end up in the hands of those who would want to keep the empire going and would not create meaningless resistance against it. Sure there would still be those who don't get with the program and oppose him, but the less opposition there is to the empire the easier it would be to maintain... The only problem is that the whole thing fell apart before the students could have claimed a right to their lands

So swap out Baron, swap in Gil, and people are more accustomed to the Wulfenbachs running things.
And then Gil kills himself in a lab accident, or gets hit with Lu's new and improved slaver wasp that overcomes even the considerable resistances of the Wulfenbach heir, or is assassinated by a particularly clever Mad Boy, or decides to throw it all over for the love of a beautiful Heterodyne, or gets abducted to Mars, or gets trapped in a time bubble of someone else's creation, or ... well, you get the idea. It's the GGverse, stuff happens, I refer you to Manga Shoggoth's introduction to the thread. At which point we still have a power vacuum, and unless Gil has appointed and trained an heir we're worse off than we were when the Baron absented himself from the scene. Consolidation of power into one person is inherently fragile; it's a short term solution.

Consider RW history, how many nations / empires had serious troubles because kings died without leaving an heir, or the heir turned out to be incompetent or daft. To say nothing of the amusing wars created when inheritance was disputed (Hundred Years, Roses, ...). All the eggs are in one basket and sooner or later the basket gets dropped.

[Ailurus]

Actually i think the Baron may have had different long term plans that would have brought more stability; Gil and the students.

That's a very good point. And, if we assume the Shrike speculation is accurate, we may well see a clear example of that coming to pass once that plot point is resolved.

[Vinyadan]

Personally, I can't help but wonder if Albia's dislike of Klaus's experiments didn't really have something to do with the fear that they could give him a weapon to use against her, or reveal some of her secrets and destroy the advantages she enjoys. Albia seems to have a special interest in studying the mind, and loves to describe it and clearly knows how to delve in it; she even got a "Lucrezia in a Bottle" to study; and, again, Lucrezia is really a rival to her mind-controlling powers.

[Radar]

So swap out Baron, swap in Gil, and people are more accustomed to the Wulfenbachs running things. (...)

More than that actually as all those students are now friends with each other. Once they would have assumed positions of power, it would have eased all the diplomatic relations immensely. In fact, I think that not only Gil was trained to be a competent and stable leader - they probably all were to a degree.

[Shining Wrath]

Actually i think the Baron may have had different long term plans that would have brought more stability; Gil and the students. Klaus took the students as hostages but they were the future rulers of Europa and he decided to handle raising and educating them. Not only that but he inserted his own son among them without them knowing about it. As we saw this resulted in Gil building a very good relationship with the students. The Baron had set up his heir to become friends with the future rulers of Europa. Heck he was even making marriage arrangements for the older students; would not be a surprise if the people he was matching the students with were among those who actually accept his rule

Basically, by the time Gil needed to inherit the empire there wouldn't really be much serious opposition to his rule because all of the other major powers within the empire would pass on to those who be on good terms with him personally. The Baron was working on making sure that the powers of europa would end up in the hands of those who would want to keep the empire going and would not create meaningless resistance against it. Sure there would still be those who don't get with the program and oppose him, but the less opposition there is to the empire the easier it would be to maintain... The only problem is that the whole thing fell apart before the students could have claimed a right to their lands

More than that actually as all those students are now friends with each other. Once they would have assumed positions of power, it would have eased all the diplomatic relations immensely. In fact, I think that not only Gil was trained to be a competent and stable leader - they probably all were to a degree.

If you think personal friendships preclude conflict when wealth and power are at stake, I'd like to point you to all of human history as a counterexample. And Klaus' educational efforts only extend to the 50 families, who have "little obvious power". The source of conflict in Europa is Mad Boys (per Othar and most of what we see), not the royal families that Klaus has raised to be good citizens.

[wingnutx]

I'd like to remind you that Albia, who is not entirely nice, despises the Baron.

That may have something to do with their doomed love affair.

[Traab]

So swap out Baron, swap in Gil, and people are more accustomed to the Wulfenbachs running things.
And then Gil kills himself in a lab accident, or gets hit with Lu's new and improved slaver wasp that overcomes even the considerable resistances of the Wulfenbach heir, or is assassinated by a particularly clever Mad Boy, or decides to throw it all over for the love of a beautiful Heterodyne, or gets abducted to Mars, or gets trapped in a time bubble of someone else's creation, or ... well, you get the idea. It's the GGverse, stuff happens, I refer you to Manga Shoggoth's introduction to the thread. At which point we still have a power vacuum, and unless Gil has appointed and trained an heir we're worse off than we were when the Baron absented himself from the scene. Consolidation of power into one person is inherently fragile; it's a short term solution.

Consider RW history, how many nations / empires had serious troubles because kings died without leaving an heir, or the heir turned out to be incompetent or daft. To say nothing of the amusing wars created when inheritance was disputed (Hundred Years, Roses, ...). All the eggs are in one basket and sooner or later the basket gets dropped.

Well yes, but whats the alternative? Europe was in total chaos before the baron took over. He squashed the fights, took command, and installed relative peace and prosperity. And whats more, his general rule of thumb was "Dont make me come over there!" He provided a set of rules and general guidelines for what he wanted then let them rule themselves with the warning that if they stepped out of line, he would "come over there" and that doesnt end well for those small rulers. He wasnt the king of europa, he was the enforcer of peace. Which made him different from a king or emperor. Just because its possible for a system to fail doesnt mean the system doesnt work. All systems of rule have their fatal flaws.

[Rakaydos]

If you think personal friendships preclude conflict when wealth and power are at stake, I'd like to point you to all of human history as a counterexample. And Klaus' educational efforts only extend to the 50 families, who have "little obvious power". The source of conflict in Europa is Mad Boys (per Othar and most of what we see), not the royal families that Klaus has raised to be good citizens.

Note that Zulienna aside, most of those 50 families are hereditary sparks at this point.

[Vinyadan]

It's also that only sparks and nobles seem unhappy about the Baron. Mechanicsburg, being a hotbed of half-monsters, was partially disarmed (except for the part in which the Baron was trying to get the Castle to work, which goes in the exact opposite direction), but was still free to handle its business and choose its rulers. But I don't remember much about the common folk calling for the death of the tyrant.

[Rodin]

It's also that only sparks and nobles seem unhappy about the Baron. Mechanicsburg, being a hotbed of half-monsters, was partially disarmed (except for the part in which the Baron was trying to get the Castle to work, which goes in the exact opposite direction), but was still free to handle its business and choose its rulers. But I don't remember much about the common folk calling for the death of the tyrant.

Unfortunately the Baron wasn't very well liked either. He ruled by fear rather than by winning hearts and minds, and his "don't make me come over there" strategy meant that his forces were not present except for when they were handing out judgement. Any good things to happen could be claimed by local rulers, even if they could only make those good things happen because the Baron was providing stability and security.

As a result, the Empire was a pressure vessel ready to explode. If any one bit went, the Baron could move in and release the pressure by crushing the rebellion. Instead, the Knights of Jove incited rebellion in ALL parts of the Empire simultaneously, and then waited for a good opportunity to kick the anthill. The Baron getting defeated and wounded (a chink in his invulnerable facade) followed by him concentrating his armies lead to the perfect chance for large swathes of the Empire to revolt simultaneously.

[Vinyadan]

The people did get resources from the Baron, however. https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/com...?date=20040112 (And threats, too)

And he had been at it for only 20 years. This means that pretty much any adult remembered how bad the world was before he came about, or what every spark and ruler was up to.

Also, the rebellion was successful while the Baron was wasped and being watched over by the Other. In practice, the head of the Empire was passing orders from someone who had no reason to wish for the Empire to survive. That's very hard to counter.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm not actually arguing that the Wulfenbach Empire was evil, just that hereditary monarchies with centralized power have known failure modes, and a universe with Sparks adds some new ones (time travel). Like everything else, it worked until it didn't.

[Drascin]

Guys, last time you broke a "clearly cordoned and sealed off" area, Dimo nearly died. I feel a little more caution might be warranted here.

[Fyraltari]

Guys, last time you broke a "clearly cordoned and sealed off" area, Dimo nearly died. I feel a little more caution might be warranted here.

Caution? Have you even met these people?

[Radar]

Caution? Have you even met these people?

Reminds me of Galaxy Quest.

[Gez]

Looking at the wall, it appears to have been built out of relatively thin stone slabs. If the mortar is weak, then Higgs' kick isn't especially superhuman.

[Mechalich]

I'm not actually arguing that the Wulfenbach Empire was evil, just that hereditary monarchies with centralized power have known failure modes, and a universe with Sparks adds some new ones (time travel). Like everything else, it worked until it didn't.

They also remove some, like mortality. A Spark can potentially rule forever. Albia has, and England, despite actively sinking into the sea, is the most stable realm in Europa. Similarly, Voltair ruled Paris for centuries, and it was by all accounts the most stable and prosperous city-state on the continent during that time. Eternal semi-benevolent or at least distracted dictatorship appears to be the nearly ideal state of operation available to Europa, to the point that multiple 'heroic' characters have chastised Gil for being insufficiently imperialist.

I actually give GirlGenius a lot of credit for recognizing that in a universe where superhumans exist (including not just sparks but many of their creations, you average Jager rivals Captain America in power and durability), you don't get the kind of governments the real world produces.

[Vinyadan]

They also remove some, like mortality. A Spark can potentially rule forever. Albia has, and England, despite actively sinking into the sea, is the most stable realm in Europa. Similarly, Voltair ruled Paris for centuries, and it was by all accounts the most stable and prosperous city-state on the continent during that time. Eternal semi-benevolent or at least distracted dictatorship appears to be the nearly ideal state of operation available to Europa, to the point that multiple 'heroic' characters have chastised Gil for being insufficiently imperialist.

I actually give GirlGenius a lot of credit for recognizing that in a universe where superhumans exist (including not just sparks but many of their creations, you average Jager rivals Captain America in power and durability), you don't get the kind of governments the real world produces.

To me the GG setting seems to show a pulp version of the enligthened despots of the Enlightenment era. Absolutists rulers who had a knack for actively partecipating in the activities of their artists and thinkers while pushing hard for scientific, military, and administrative advancement, enlarging access to education, introducing new crops, settling undeveloped territories they already owned... In general, following the philosophy of actively using reason to solve problems. However, they also went to war against each other and didn't share power.

[Shining Wrath]

To me the GG setting seems to show a pulp version of the enligthened despots of the Enlightenment era. Absolutists rulers who had a knack for actively partecipating in the activities of their artists and thinkers while pushing hard for scientific, military, and administrative advancement, enlarging access to education, introducing new crops, settling undeveloped territories they already owned... In general, following the philosophy of actively using reason to solve problems. However, they also went to war against each other and didn't share power.

We may be about to see Albia try to expand her realm at the expense of Gil. I do not trust her eternal Majesty.

[Traab]

We may be about to see Albia try to expand her realm at the expense of Gil. I do not trust her eternal Majesty.

Im thinking no. She seems more than happy with her kingdom and has had literal centuries to try to expand if she wanted. I think she just wants to claim special people for her "garden" She kind of reminds me of the stories of the Fae where you can find your way to them, make a bargain, and they can be very helpful, but you need to be careful as they is always a catch. "Oh, you forgot to include us letting you leave in your deal." That sort of thing.

[Shining Wrath]

Im thinking no. She seems more than happy with her kingdom and has had literal centuries to try to expand if she wanted. I think she just wants to claim special people for her "garden" She kind of reminds me of the stories of the Fae where you can find your way to them, make a bargain, and they can be very helpful, but you need to be careful as they is always a catch. "Oh, you forgot to include us letting you leave in your deal." That sort of thing.

When I say I don't trust her, and you compare her to the Fae - well, yeah, the Fae are remarkably not-trustworthy folks.
But if Albia is looking at Europa and thinking "That's a storm, and it's going to reach England sooner or later", she may view subjecting large parts of Europa to her rule as necessary for the safety of her current realm.

EDIT: I'm thinking of the idea of "buffer states" / client states more than outright conquest. Make Collette an offer: "You know Gil can't handle the Empire, why don't we at least ensure the Low Countries are stable".

[geoduck]

I expect Albia to die before this is all over.