OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

Ex-Paladin
Soon's technically clean of that one.

Girard's Gate was destroyed by his reliance on "family" to keep it safe and hidden, without considering magic that would target a family lineage.
What was Serini's motif behind her defenses, "brute strenght"?

Kinda interesting that instead of using strenght to defend her Gate she's going the opposite way by bending over and helping the threat do as it pleases.

Nah, man, Miko was still raised and trained by the Saphire Guard, and a standing member of said order until just about the final moment. And for technicalities, I don't think they had the time to formerly expel her from the order. :P

Girard's defenses had a vulnerability that was exploited, but otherwise, he had nothing to do with its destruction. It's not his own trees that tore it apart. It's not his own rune that blew it up. It's not his own paladins that broke it. It's an outside entity that broke through the defenses and destroyed it. He was bested, but at least he, unlike the others, did not defeat himself.

A vote to blow the world early because it's about to get Snarl's anyway is deadlocked. The Order knows this. I wouldn't call that a ringing endorsement of "so long as one Gate is left standing we're good". It's the rate of acceleration that the last Gate controls, but that doesn't mean the world isn't still speeding towards doom. It's already accelerated four times, twice due directly to the actions of the protags at the canyon while knowing what they were doing.

I wonder: Is Serini aware of the gods' motivation to pre-emptively destroy the world, at all?

For all that Shojo invokes "the gods" as the source of his authority*, is there any evidence the Scribblers (including Soon) ever even knew about the gods' intentions? Let alone had the gods' intentions in mind, as opposed to their own motivation**?
_{* - "citation needed", as they would say on Wikipedia
** - "Keep the people-eating rifts (that could destroy the world all by themselves) enclosed"}

The Sticklers' first focus was "Stop Xykon from controlling the gates at all costs" (i.e. don't let him have even one gate no matter what). Then once they found out the gods would rather destroy the world than let the Snark do it, it became "Stop the gods from deciding to destroy the world". They've never thought of things from Serini's point of view, that destroying even one gate is like "We can blow one tire on a car traveling 70mph because hey we still have three left". But then again, she may not have thought about it from their new point of view -- not only because her focus has remained that of the Scribblers**, because she's never had the information that the gods have blown up billions of worlds and are about to do so again.

This was pretty much going to be my reply. The only people aware of what the Godsmoot was all about are the people who were at the Godsmoot, all of whom are still there, with the exception of the Order of the Stick and the select few they told the story to.

And even in the odd chance that the Order was scryed on 24/7 and that Sirini learned about the Godsmoot from the Order explaining it to others, all gates had been destroyed prior to that point. So almost nobody knows about this threat, and no gates have been destroyed since those that do have learnt it.

*shrug* that’s too bad. Then I guess Xykon will control the gate for the next infinity plus a hundred billion years.

Still better than destroying the world, I’d wager.

Him getting control of the Gate now does not decrease the odds of the Gate falling when he is defeated. It increases it.

[CountDVB]

Nah, man, Miko was still raised and trained by the Saphire Guard, and a standing member of said order until just about the final moment. And for technicalities, I don't think they had the time to formerly expel her from the order. :P

Girard's defenses had a vulnerability that was exploited, but otherwise, he had nothing to do with its destruction. It's not his own trees that tore it apart. It's not his own rune that blew it up. It's not his own paladins that broke it. It's an outside entity that broke through the defenses and destroyed it. He was bested, but at least he, unlike the others, did not defeat himself.

This was pretty much going to be my reply. The only people aware of what the Godsmoot was all about are the people who were at the Godsmoot, all of whom are still there, with the exception of the Order of the Stick and the select few they told the story to.

And even in the odd chance that the Order was scryed on 24/7 and that Sirini learned about the Godsmoot from the Order explaining it to others, all gates had been destroyed prior to that point. So almost nobody knows about this threat, and no gates have been destroyed since those that do have learnt it.

Him getting control of the Gate now does not decrease the odds of the Gate falling when he is defeated. It increases it.

Miko was raised by a monstrary most of her life though.

As for Girard, well, I wonder what would've happened has V not whacked his clan nor Tarquin's wife of the time. I suspect that if she tried to go and find out what happened, she would either be captured or killed. If that happened, that would get Tarquin's attention. He'd see an attack on her and any taunting as a slight on him... and one does not slight Tarquin without serious consequences. That would not end well for them at all.

Would lead to a different series of events, especially when the Order arrives. Tarquin with Malack would note it'd be best not touch the damn thing and then just secure it under his reign. The gate would likely remain secure under the Empire of Blood unless Nale botches something and breaks it. And even then, it's possible Miron and Malack would fix it (I'm surprised Nergal didn't tell Malack about the gates' importance, but maybe it's because he knew he wouldn't break it.)

[Peelee]

I wonder: Is Serini aware of the gods' motivation to pre-emptively destroy the world, at all?

Irrelevant; it's also acceleration for this world falling to the Snarl (which was what I originally meant, but worded it poorly and it happened to still fit). She knows about the Snarl, the previous world, and that rifts are forming in this world. She can minimize one rift from being unsealed, so she's doing that.

[Ganbatte]

*shrug* that’s too bad. Then I guess Xykon will control the gate for the next infinity plus a hundred billion years.

Still better than destroying the world, I’d wager.

Which is not a certainty, either. Not sure why you're treating it as such. Serini is, but she's dumb.

[Thermophille]

I'd just like to bring up the whole debate between the Dragonborn and Paarthurnax in Skyrim. Paarthurnax points out that, most likely, the world is being destroyed to make room for a new one, and the Dragonborn replies that they aren't responsible for the next world, and aren't going to lay down while this one is destroyed.

I think that Serini has a very similar perspective to the Dragonborn in this situation. Because we're seeing her from an outside perspective, and we know more than she does, it seems a lot more ludicrous than it does in Skyrim, but the position is essentially the same.

A lot of people have been saying a lot of things about why Xykon would probably remain in power forever, but I don't think this is the case. He's done nothing to bring attention to himself on a large scale (since the only people who could possibly be going after him for the stuff with the Gates alone are stuck at the Godsmoot), and he still has a group of 14-16th level characters going after him.

The world is big. Tarquin and his party are all nearly 20th level, much stronger than the Order, and they can't be the only people at that point. They can't even be the only people at that level who are completely under raps, either. Sure, the Snarl would take out most of Xykon's competition, but once a few dozen people between 17th and 21st level start organizing, there won't be a lot Xykon can do. Even as powerful as he is, he's hardly uniquely powerful.

Words like 'crazy' and 'insane' keep getting thrown around, but from Serini's position, her actions make complete sense. She's doing whatever it takes to, with the information she has, minimize the chance of the world being destroyed. Unfortunately, this is due to a misunderstanding, and if she knew everything we and the Order know, she'd side against Xykon, though she'd probably settle for assassinating Redcloak instead.

If Xykon actually had a real possibility of ruling the world, this situation would be a lot more interesting in my opinion. Then, there'd be the actual clash between the choice of having the world destroyed or ruled under Xykon, because I don't know what Roy would do. Sure, he's not giving up on the world, but he might very well reason that the afterlife is a better fate than living under Xykon's heel.

[Dion]

Which is not a certainty, either. Not sure why you're treating it as such. Serini is, but she's dumb.

In Serini’s estimation, they “don’t even have the bottle the juice would go in”.

I don’t think she’s wrong.

I believe Roy and company will be slaughtered in three rounds if they follow Roy’s plan.

[Ganbatte]

In Serini’s estimation, they “don’t even have the bottle the juice would go in”.

I don’t think she’s wrong.

I believe Roy and company will be slaughtered in three rounds if they follow Roy’s plan.

Then help them. Do your part. Fight together. You're epic too, show it.
Lirian, Dorukan and Soon all actively fought the threat to their gates.
She's the only one bending over the other way aiding it.

[arimareiji]

Irrelevant; it's also acceleration for this world falling to the Snarl (which was what I originally meant, but worded it poorly and it happened to still fit). She knows about the Snarl, the previous world, and that rifts are forming in this world. She can minimize one rift from being unsealed, so she's doing that.

If it helps for context, it wasn't meant as contradiction to what you said at all.

It was more of a tangent off of what you were saying. If it's contradictory to anything, it's the belief that letting Xykon take the gate rather than destroying it is "insane", "dumb", irrational, etc. If she has every reason to believe the choices are between "the world continues to exist under Xykon's thumb" and "existence as we know it comes to an irrevocable end", the former is a very rational choice.

[understatement]

Then help them. Do your part. Fight together. You're epic too, show it.
Lirian, Dorukan and Soon all actively fought the threat to their gates.
She's the only one bending over the other way aiding it.

Serini, as an Epic-level rogue, got flattened by Xykon in probably less than five rounds. Lirian and Dorukan are exponentially more powerful than her due to being full casters, and Soon had the huge advantages of being incorporeal, having an incorporeal backup squad, and specifically being tailored to fight Evil, as well as likely fighting on hallowed ground.

Serini doesn't believe the Order is strong enough to be any sort of threat to Xykon, because, well, they really aren't.

[Goblin_Priest]

Serini, as an Epic-level rogue, got flattened by Xykon in probably less than five rounds. Lirian and Dorukan are exponentially more powerful than her due to being full casters, and Soon had the huge advantages of being incorporeal, having an incorporeal backup squad, and specifically being tailored to fight Evil, as well as likely fighting on hallowed ground.

Serini doesn't believe the Order is strong enough to be any sort of threat to Xykon, because, well, they really aren't.

If only they had an epic dungeon full of epic monsters and its epic builder at hand to lay an ambush.

[Shadowknight12]

Then help them. Do your part. Fight together. You're epic too, show it.
Lirian, Dorukan and Soon all actively fought the threat to their gates.
She's the only one bending over the other way aiding it.

Except she is fighting every single threat to her Gate. If she wasn't, she would have simply told Xykon how to get to the Gate already. The paladins and the OOTS are as much of a threat to the Gate as Xykon in her eyes, she has no reason to trust the genocidal, gate-destroying paladins, or the genocidal, gate-destroying OOTS.

She is eliminating the paladins and the OOTS via knock-out + amnesia potion. She is allowing the traps and the monsters that she put in place to deal with Xykon. You have no way of knowing if she doesn't have an alternate plan for Xykon that she's slowly preparing while the Gate's defences slow him down (like studying his spell repertoire and weaknesses, as well as those of his allies, seeking out specific magic items to be able to pierce his undead immunities and counter his magic items, etc.).

You are working off the assumption that she WANTS Xykon to win because she refuses to work with the paladins or the OOTS, and that's not what Serini said. What Serini said was that Xykon winning is preferable to non-existence. At no point did Serini said she herself has no plans whatsoever for dealing with Xykon. Her dismissal of herself "an old lady with a blowgun" when the paladins suggested a team-up doesn't necessarily mean she has no plans to take him out eventually, it can mean she has no intentions of tackling him in direct battle, which is what the paladins would want to do, and the exact opposite of her own tactics.

[Good Coyote]

Except she is fighting every single threat to her Gate. If she wasn't, she would have simply told Xykon how to get to the Gate already. The paladins and the OOTS are as much of a threat to the Gate as Xykon in her eyes, she has no reason to trust the genocidal, gate-destroying paladins, or the genocidal, gate-destroying OOTS.

She is eliminating the paladins and the OOTS via knock-out + amnesia potion. She is allowing the traps and the monsters that she put in place to deal with Xykon. You have no way of knowing if she doesn't have an alternate plan for Xykon that she's slowly preparing while the Gate's defences slow him down (like studying his spell repertoire and weaknesses, as well as those of his allies, seeking out specific magic items to be able to pierce his undead immunities and counter his magic items, etc.).

You are working off the assumption that she WANTS Xykon to win because she refuses to work with the paladins or the OOTS, and that's not what Serini said. What Serini said was that Xykon winning is preferable to non-existence. At no point did Serini said she herself has no plans whatsoever for dealing with Xykon. Her dismissal of herself "an old lady with a blowgun" when the paladins suggested a team-up doesn't necessarily mean she has no plans to take him out eventually, it can mean she has no intentions of tackling him in direct battle, which is what the paladins would want to do, and the exact opposite of her own tactics.

In support of this, on the last page the "Oh yes! The only threats more terrifying than an old lady with a blowgun are the two clowns who got beat by the same old lady." emphasizes that they are less effective than she is (or at least have proven to be so when facing each other).

Then she says, "No, I think you stopping him will require actions you'll consider fully within bounds," with an emphasis on the you. She is equally specific when she says "I do think there's only one way you two chuckleheads have any chance of stopping Xykon," not that nobody has any chance.

That's hardly proof that she does have a plan to do more than sit and wait while Xykon continues to goof around in the tourist-friendly areas of her dungeon. But there's certainly no evidence against it.

If she had plans to actually help him, and not just to oppose other parties as well, then it seems like... he'd have found the Gate by now. She is still opposing Xykon, she just isn't willing to work with people whose methods she finds beyond the pale in order to do so.

I do personally think that she should be more willing to hear them out, at least at the point that Lien says, "but that's not even an option this time," but then again, she's in a rush to go lock down the Order. Maybe she would be more willing if she wasn't on a schedule.

EDIT: Pure speculation ahead. It occurred to me... one reason that Serini nabbed the paladins as soon as they talked about poking in doors, instead of letting them run around like Xykon, might be that she didn't want to have to sit back and watch them die when Xykon found them. If she intervened after the point that Xykon became aware of them, then he'd have the Mystery of the Disappearing Paladins to solve and it might end up leading him closer to the Gate. She would not be willing to risk that. So her options were move early or don't act for or against them at all (which she believes would inevitably end with their loss).

Of course now he's got the Mystery of the Disappearing Dwarves, so that might actually be the thing that throws a crank in whatever her plans are and forces her to work with the Order instead.

[hroþila]

That wasn't a fight, it was an ambush.

Correct, it was an ambush. Doesn't change the fact that she's still not optimized to fight an epic lich sorceror.

Or she could JOIN the Order and with their help try doing the thing Soon did with his way lower level paladins: band together and defeat the villain.
Your example assumes that it's either Serini vs Xykon or the Order vs Xykon, not the two together.
This is her home turf, her defenses, she's had tons of time to prepare for this challenge instead of getting ambushed and a bunch of mid-high level adventurers are here by her door in clear opposition to Xykon.

No, my example assumes that Serini has reason to believe her help won't be enough to overcome Xykon, plus Redcloak, plus the MitD, plus Oona, plus Greyview. And I think her assessment is correct on paper - I don't think the Order is ever going to win that fight, with or without Serini and the paladins. Once she's made that calculation, the correct next step here is to preserve herself as a way to maximize the chances of the defenses resisting. You're just assuming Serini's assessment of the respective power levels is wrong and you're calling her stupid and a coward for it even though she's a lot better informed about her own abilities (and about the chances of the gate's defenses to hold against Xykon) than you or me.

This is her home turf, her defenses, she's had tons of time to prepare for this challenge. So let her call the shots and defend her gate as she sees fit instead of demanding she gets killed and loses her gate like all those other Scribblers.

There will never be a better chance at taking him down and do her job guarding the gate than now, yet she's choosing to disable the heroes and look the other way (assumedly) while the villain seizes it.

You don't actually know any of this. Eternity is a long time, unless someone cuts it short by getting the gate destroyed (or indirectly pointing at its location, making it possible for Xykon to find it).

[arimareiji]

If only they had an epic dungeon full of epic monsters and its epic builder at hand to lay an ambush.

I think this is likely to come into play against the Order, and she'd be the best-qualified by far to figure out how to lay an ambush for Xykon. But the more I think about how Roy is planning his ambush in 1224, the more I understand why she's rushing off to put them to sleep.

Sarcastically-paraphrased version of what Roy says in panels 2, 3, and 7: "Hey guys, we can't afford to expose the gate to Xykon. We always do something stupid like that, then 'fix' it at the last minute [by destroying another gate]... so let's jump out of the portal that's been hiding the real tunnel(s) from him to attack him! Great idea, huh?"

Yes, great idea if they were guaranteed to win. Mind-bogglingly stupid if they lose.

It's sad that Haley explained the concept of a shell game pretty well in panels 6-9 of 428* -- but Roy apparently still doesn't understand, and Haley has apparently forgotten. Because they're planning to show Xykon that he's been wasting time picking up shells one-by-one, when Serini had the ball in her hand the whole time.
_{* - "A con man doesn't choose to play the shell game with you if there is any possibility of him actually losing. The con isn't in getting you to pick the wrong shell. The con is in getting you to accept that the basic premise of the game is still being followed. The con is in getting you to pick a shell at all."}

[Jasdoif]

No, my example assumes that Serini has reason to believe her help won't be enough to overcome Xykon, plus Redcloak, plus the MitD, plus Oona, plus Greyview. And I think her assessment is correct on paper - I don't think the Order is ever going to win that fight, with or without Serini and the paladins. Once she's made that calculation, the correct next step here is to preserve herself as a way to maximize the chances of the defenses resisting.

One thing I can say about Serini with certainty: she's shown really good retention of the element of surprise.

[arimareiji]

But the more I think about how Roy is planning his ambush in 1224, the more I understand why she's rushing off to put them to sleep.

And the more I think about this wording, it comes back to me that I've been half-jokingly-half-seriously suggesting that her orange-voiced friend may be a copper dragon.

But brass dragons are also arguably orange-brown, also CG, and their breath weapon would be perfect for the task of "putting idiots to sleep before they can show Xykon the tunnels are a shell game, with portals concealing the real gate". And if Serini has the Order restrained when they wake up, the odds that talking and listening will occur go up sharply.

_{Edit: Minor refactors}

[Good Coyote]

And the more I think about this wording, it comes back to me that I've been half-jokingly-half-seriously suggesting that her orange-voiced friend may be a copper dragon.

But brass dragons are also arguably orange-brown, also CG, and their breath weapon would be perfect for the task of "putting idiots to sleep before they execute their plan to expose the portals concealing the gate to Xykon". And if Serini has the Order restrained when they wake up, the odds that talking and listening will occur go up sharply.

Brass? And she has goggles? Didn't the PCs already clear the Steampunk Region?

[arimareiji]

Brass? And she has goggles? Didn't the PCs already clear the Steampunk Region?

Not until they beat Steampunk Xykon.

You know you want to see it. XD

[Peelee]

If it helps for context, it wasn't meant as contradiction to what you said at all.

It was more of a tangent off of what you were saying. If it's contradictory to anything, it's the belief that letting Xykon take the gate rather than destroying it is "insane", "dumb", irrational, etc. If she has every reason to believe the choices are between "the world continues to exist under Xykon's thumb" and "existence as we know it comes to an irrevocable end", the former is a very rational choice.

I'm bad at reading comprehension today.

Lirian, Dorukan and Soon all actively fought the threat to their gates.

And they all had their Gates destroyed. Not a ringing endorsement of that strategy for someone in her position.

Not until they beat Steampunk Xykon.

You know you want to see it. XD

Mebbe.

[Shadowknight12]

You're just assuming Serini's assessment of the respective power levels is wrong and you're calling her stupid and a coward for it even though she's a lot better informed about her own abilities (and about the chances of the gate's defenses to hold against Xykon) than you or me.

This is her home turf, her defenses, she's had tons of time to prepare for this challenge. So let her call the shots and defend her gate as she sees fit instead of demanding she gets killed and loses her gate like all those other Scribblers.

Thank you for precisely identifying what bothers me about the level of scorn and disgust levied at Serini from some of the people here. There is very little respect for her as an independent agent with extremely high expertise.

[arimareiji]

I'm bad at reading comprehension today.

Yes. Because if someone doesn't have the same context and/or facts to understand something with multiple explanations, it's completely their fault if they arrive at the most reasonable one* given the set of context and/or facts that they do have. It's their fault for not being omniscient. (/kidding, with a dash of ragging on myself for being opaque)

_{* - such as "expecting a reply to be a direct response", or "thinking that if someone is repeatedly nearby when gates get blowed up, and has been directly responsible twice (once for lulz), maybe you don't want them near your gate that you want to stay un-blowed-up".}

[CountDVB]

Correct, it was an ambush. Doesn't change the fact that she's still not optimized to fight an epic lich sorceror.

No, my example assumes that Serini has reason to believe her help won't be enough to overcome Xykon, plus Redcloak, plus the MitD, plus Oona, plus Greyview. And I think her assessment is correct on paper - I don't think the Order is ever going to win that fight, with or without Serini and the paladins. Once she's made that calculation, the correct next step here is to preserve herself as a way to maximize the chances of the defenses resisting. You're just assuming Serini's assessment of the respective power levels is wrong and you're calling her stupid and a coward for it even though she's a lot better informed about her own abilities (and about the chances of the gate's defenses to hold against Xykon) than you or me.

This is her home turf, her defenses, she's had tons of time to prepare for this challenge. So let her call the shots and defend her gate as she sees fit instead of demanding she gets killed and loses her gate like all those other Scribblers.

You mean how Lirian, Dorukan, Soon Kim and Girard all called the shots with their gate and defended it as they saw fit? How well did it go for them?

Oh wait, it didn’t go well. Because their faults and foibles led to faults and unexpected developments that caused them to be screwed over. They thought their approach was best and neglected the ideas and thoughts of others. Look how that went.

[danielxcutter]

If you ask me - and yes I know nobody really has - I'd say I can see why she thinks that way, and that I still disagree from that even based on the facts she presumably knows. For example, seriously underestimating the abilities of the Snarl.

[BriarHobbit]

Well, this is a great set up for the next comic. "Aunt Serini" is willing to let Xykon win on the off chance that the heroes might destroy (even by accident) the last Gate. She doesn't know about Red Cloak's plan or that the Gods WILL destroy the world before they allow Red Cloak to succeed. If this was a manga, the heroes would be doomed. Serini is short, old and wrinkled. In a classic manga, that means she wins the first encounter. Fast.

This is the entrance exam for the Order of the Stick. If they want to beat Xykon, they have to demonstrate that they can handle a "scry and die" ambush attack from a high level halfling/troll hybrid thief loaded with incredibly powerful knockout poison, multiple magic items and improved invisibility. Plus there is her unseen assistant of indeterminate level. If they lose, I don't see how they are going to talk Serini into not dousing them with amnesia potion.

In theory, the fight should go beyond two panels. The Order has access to Slow Poison which will take the bite out of the O-Chul beating darts of doom. However, Serini probably has a Dispel Magic wand to remove the buffs and then everyone is vulnerable again. The interactions with Serini and the Order have so much potential. She is a powerful, older character, who thinks that she knows best. So, that will annoy Roy, who gets plenty of that from his Dad. Elan could get another chance at the Hero's Choice because she is a poisoner. This looks great.

[BriarHobbit]

Well, it's going to be an intersting ambush, isn't it.



I wonder what her goggles are for...

The multi-lensed goggles could have multiple functions. One for each lens or to compensate for Serini having different eyes now. Providing True Sight seems the most likely bet. That power allows the person to see invisible opponents and ignore illusions.

[Peelee]

If you ask me - and yes I know nobody really has

Hey danielxcutter, what do you think?

I'd say I can see why she thinks that way, and that I still disagree from that even based on the facts she presumably knows. For example, seriously underestimating the abilities of the Snarl.

I wholly agree. All of my defense of Serini so far has been defendimg why it's not unreasonable for her to hold those beliefs, but I disagree with her. Fortune favors the bold.

[dancrilis]

You mean how Lirian, Dorukan, Soon Kim and Girard all called the shots with their gate and defended it as they saw fit? How well did it go for them?

Spoiler: SOD Lirian

Show

Lirian actually won and defended her Gate successfully only a) her mercy, b) an artifact of a god and c) Redcloaks prior research into how to prolong Xykon's life (or bypass the issue) caused her defeat in the second conflict.

Spoiler: SOD Dorukan

Show

Dorukan's with six months preparation, and an army of angels at his beck and call died fairly quickly (a cautionary tale about opposing Xykon head on), however his seal over the Gate did prevent Xykon accessing it - as such his Gate defence was not beaten, when the Gate was destroyed by a band of heroes they still had not beaten his actual seal and while it is suspected that they could it is not known.

Soon:
Soon's standard defence (the city) was overwhelmed by an invading army, his second defence (the living Sapphire Guard) died without much of a showing for themselves, however his third defence (himself and the dead members of the Sapphire Guard) had a decent showing of themselves - they forced Xykon to retreat (prior to the Gate being destroyed) and he believes that he might have been able to end the threat if Miko had not seen fit to undertake her duty.

Girard:
Girard's defences were breached by epic level magic that was not targeting them specifically - as such his defences cannot truely be blamed for his gate falling, a similiar but different spell (targeting friends and friends of friends) could have been cast instead and wiped any mortal defenders out.

So all in all the defences didn't do too badly.

Serini has an option of teaming up with The Order of the Stick to stop Xykon - lets consider that for a moment.

The Order of the Stick - who destroyed two of the five gates (the second delibrately to prevent it falling into Xykon's hands).
However the first destruction might be more interesting as while it was destroyed accidently the leader of the Order admitted at trial that had he known it was one of the corner stones of reality he would have destroyed it anyway to keep it out of the minions of Xykon's hands (he believes that Xykon himself was gone at the time).
As such rather then guarding Dorukan's gate against abuse, and knowing that Dorukan's gate was a rock upon which the stability of the world rested, and believing that Xykon was no longer a threat- Roy Greenhilt would have broken it anyway, panels 1 and 2.
The fact that he actually broke the second one only supports that he continues to believe that universal destruction is acceptable to prevent the forces of evil getting a win.

Now at the Gate Serini's is guarding the Order did the following:
1. Announce their presence.
2. Alert Team Evil to the fact that someone is actively sabotaging their search.
3. Begin a plan that if it fails will alert Team Evil to the 'portal trap' that has so far kept them at bay successfully.

None of this gets into the fact that the epic magic that killed the Draketooths was also cast by a member of the Order without consideration of consequences.

Frankly Serini is likely correct that the Order as not good partners in the quest for global stability.

[danielxcutter]

Hey danielxcutter, what do you think?

I totally walked into that one didn't I.

I wholly agree. All of my defense of Serini so far has been defending why it's not unreasonable for her to hold those beliefs, but I disagree with her. Fortune favors the bold.

I suppose considering how close Xykon came to killing her, being bold wouldn't be that easy.

[Good Coyote]

snip

This is a good breakdown, but even though he couldn't foresee it, Girard you can kind of say fell because he was too restrictive in who he trusted. If there was anyone there who wasn't blood related to him, the story might be different.

However.. at least two others had exactly the opposite problem.

Dorukan implicitly trusted anyone of Good Alignment, and Elan deeply abused that trust. (Assuming that all of his runes had the same defense.)

Soon's fell because Miko had been trusted, not because his Guard was too exclusive. In fact, all signs point to his legacy seriously benefitting from some kind of psych screening process. (And it's not even that someone Chaotic like Haley would be better suited to point out Lawful flaws, because Shojo recruited Miko.)

You can even kind of blame the fall of Soon's gate on his paladins "listening" to Dorukan, or interpreting it as a sign from him that he had included a self-destruct, and therefore destroying the Gate might be an okay idea. (Can blame the fall of Girard's Gate on the Order listening to the same thing, but it wasn't as big a mess as Soon's.)

So agreed, it really doesn't seem like a blanket "always widen the circle" makes sense as a message.

[arimareiji]

Now at the Gate Serini's is guarding the Order did the following:
1. Announce their presence.
2. Alert Team Evil to the fact that someone is actively sabotaging their search.
3. Begin a plan that if it fails will alert Team Evil to the 'portal trap' that has so far kept them at bay successfully.
...
Frankly Serini is likely correct that the Order as not good partners in the quest for global stability.

Not really their fault that Redcloak is analytical, but the Meld Into Stone already has RC thinking about looking for hidden elements (as opposed to straightforward "march in to a whole bunch of tunnels and beat up the powerful monsters, eventually one will be the right door").

If even that is enough to weaken the assumptions undergirding Serini's shell game, jumping out of the portal for an ambush might as well be a big red neon sign saying "The gate is here!"

_{Edit: Removed a stray tag}