Truenamer: Utter Rubbish?

[String]

I've heard some opinions that this class is underpowered, in a similar vein to the Monk or CWSamurai. Is this simply because of the small number of Utterances he ends up with? I ask mostly because I love the class concept in general, and directly because I am playing a level 4 Truenamer in a PbP game and would like to try and avoid some issues.

[Temp]

First, the class abilities aren't all that spectacular.

Second, the class actually gets worse as it levels up. Look at the Truenaming DC to affect high level characters. The class completely dissolves... not something that really seems worth building toward.

[bugsysservant]

Well, the problem with truenamer is that the DCs get incredibly high. It becomes very dificult to succeed at any check at high levels without custom items, and those just ruin the game at high levels. NO ONE should let a batman epic level wizard have a custom item of spellcraft.

[tyckspoon]

If I remember correctly it's because of the way the DCs for truenaming checks scale. Skills generally improve at 1 point/level; however, the truenaming formula goes (2 * [some value of the target]) + 15. For creatures, it uses CR. When you gain a level, your truenaming check usually goes up by 1 for the new skill point. However, the difficulty to use an utterance against an equal-CR critter goes up by 2. The end result of this is that, without putting significant effort into maximizing your truename result, you actually have a harder time doing things to enemies at 20th level than you did at 1st.

[The_Snark]

There are several reasons, but primarily:

-The skill check DCs you need to make are generally going to be very high at higher levels. Even with Skill Focus, an Amulet of the Silver Tongue +10, and the best Int you can get, you'll still always have a decent failure chance when affecting creatures of your CR with an utterance. During tougher-than-usual fights, you'll be even more helpless; during the final battle of a campaign, for example, you can probably forget about affecting the main enemy at all.

-In exchange for having unreliable abilities, you can use them as often as you want... except that it gets even harder after the first time you use an utterance.

-The utterances simply aren't that good. They're similar to spells, but they have short durations (not a single one has a duration higher than 5 rounds), generally allow saves (and SR; that can be bypassed, but you get hit with another DC increase in the Truespeak check!), and don't have incredibly powerful effects when they do work.

-Limited utterances known doesn't help, especially combined with the Law of Resistance.

The point of them was to make a spellcaster who could use abilities all day long (like the warlock), except they'd be more powerful, similar to spells—in exchange for not always working. It was a tricky mechanical concept to get to work, and was killed by:

-The Law of Resistance. They introduced this because they didn't want truenamers healing all day long; unfortunately, it killed the class's all-day-long philosophy completely.
-They based the ability to cast off a skill check. Skills can be affected by a lot of variables, like Skill Focus, skill-enhancing items, and spells (like Divine Insight). To try to compensate for that, they...
-Made the DCs based off the target's CR, and it scales heavily. If you don't optimize your truenamer's skill bonuses to the maximum, you end up useless; if you do, you can stay manageable, unless you fight something with higher CR than your level.

What they should have done was assigned DCs based on utterance level, and made the skill check a truenamer level check, so that it's suddenly much harder to boost. (That Truename Training feat would make your other classes count towards truenamer levels, I imagine.) That way, your high-level utterances are still unreliable, but you'll be using low-level utterances more or less as often as you like, and can actually make use of things like Quicken Utterance.

[JaxGaret]

Well, the problem with truenamer is that the DCs get incredibly high. It becomes very dificult to succeed at any check at high levels without custom items, and those just ruin the game at high levels. NO ONE should let a batman epic level wizard have a custom item of spellcraft.

First things first: Don't ever bring Epic into a discussion about balance. Epic has no bearing on balance level 1-20.

There are specific items in the Tome of Magic for Truenamers, that increase the Truenaming check. So they aren't custom items. And even without custom items, it's possible to get the Truenaming check up close to 100, definitely in the 75 range.

The Truenamer is really a support type class, mostly useful for buffing and filling in the gaps for what's needed. It is not a primary arcanist. It's really one of the "5th-wheel" type classes that don't fulfill one of the 4 archetypical party roles.

I would put it squarely in the middle of the power curve. It's actually fairly well balanced, just not stupidly powerful like the full casters.

-They based the ability to cast off a skill check. Skills can be affected by a lot of variables, like Skill Focus, skill-enhancing items, and spells (like Divine Insight). To try to compensate for that, they...
-Made the DCs based off the target's CR, and it scales heavily. If you don't optimize your truenamer's skill bonuses to the maximum, you end up useless; if you do, you can stay manageable, unless you fight something with higher CR than your level.

What they should have done was assigned DCs based on utterance level, and made the skill check a truenamer level check, so that it's suddenly much harder to boost. (That Truename Training feat would make your other classes count towards truenamer levels, I imagine.) That way, your high-level utterances are still unreliable, but you'll be using low-level utterances more or less as often as you like, and can actually make use of things like Quicken Utterance.

QFT.

[String]

Hmm. Thanks. I'm really bad at applying rules I read to actual occurances (i.e.: I wasn't able to spot the scaling problem). Looks like I'll be wanting to grab Skill Focus at 6th, along with some int-boosters.

[JaxGaret]

Hmm. Thanks. I'm really bad at applying rules I read to actual occurances (i.e.: I wasn't able to spot the scaling problem). Looks like I'll be wanting to grab Skill Focus at 6th, along with some int-boosters.

Yeah. Your primary focus - your only focus, really - should be to get that Truenaming check as sky high as possible.

Everything else is secondary and much less important for your character to be useful.

[Darth Mario]

If you can convince your DM to use a more balanced formula (I allow my Truenamer player to use a DC of 15+target's CR+(utterance levelx2)), it becomes a LOT more playable.

[Skjaldbakka]

There are specific items in the Tome of Magic for Truenamers, that increase the Truenaming check. So they aren't custom items. And even without custom items, it's possible to get the Truenaming check up close to 100, definitely in the 75 range.

No, you can't. Unless you are talking epic level.

by level 20,

You can get a +10 item
You can get an intelligence of 36 (+13)
You can have 23 skill ranks (+23)
You can get +3 from Skill Focus

That is a +49, w/o custom items

The DC to be a buff/utility character at level 20 is 55. With a +49 modifier, you need a 6 on the die. That is the equivalent of having 25% arcane spell failure.

Now, you could get an Item Familiar, via UA. Then you could have an arbitrarily high Truespeak check. But Item Familiar is a broken feat. It is also neither core nor part of the supplement Truenamer was printed in.

[Dhavaer]

Would the Prodigy ability (+2 to an ability and +4 to all related checks for +2 LA, from DMG2) be worthwhile for a Truenamer? Normally the stupid high LA would kill any usefulness, but it sound as though the Truenamer really, really needs the +5 bonus.

[Karsh]

Well, it's really a +3 bonus since you lose two skill points in the process. If you can buy off LA, maybe.

Carry around several +10 Shards of Truespeak, or take Leadership and have a small horde of lesser Truenamers follow you around and shout advice to you (Aiding Another). Or... Nanobots.

[JaxGaret]

No, you can't. Unless you are talking epic level.

by level 20,

You can get a +10 item
You can get an intelligence of 36 (+13)
You can have 23 skill ranks (+23)
You can get +3 from Skill Focus

That is a +49, w/o custom items

The DC to be a buff/utility character at level 20 is 55. With a +49 modifier, you need a 6 on the die. That is the equivalent of having 25% arcane spell failure.

Now, you could get an Item Familiar, via UA. Then you could have an arbitrarily high Truespeak check. But Item Familiar is a broken feat. It is also neither core nor part of the supplement Truenamer was printed in.

Yes, you can. Here is a list of ways to improve your Truenaming check:

Feats:

* Feat [Skill Focus (Truespeak)]: +3 unnamed; PHB
* Racial Feat [Enhance Power Sigils]: Bonus from power sigils increases by +1.; Race of Destiny
* Feat [Keen Intellect]: +1 unnamed to intelligence based checks; OA.
* Feat [Flexible Mind]: +1 unnamed to two skills and these skills are always treated as class skills for you; Dragon 326
* Feat [Shape Soulmeld (Lucky Dice)]: +1 luck to any skill check; Magic of Incarnum
* Feat [Item Familiar]: You can invest your "item familiar" with skill ranks to gain an unnamed bonus equal to the number of ranks invested diviedec by 3 to any skill. Effectively one may gain a maximum of +23 "ranks" to any skill.; Unearthed Arcana
* Feat [Bloodline (Fire, Gold Dragon, Titan): +1 to intelligence at 15th level.
* Exalted Feat [Favored of the Champions/Knight of the Stars/Servant of the Heavens] Grants a +1 luck bonus 1 time per day; Book of Exalted Deeds

Class Abilities:

* Class Ability [Exemplar (Skill Artistry)]: +4 competance bonus; Complete Adventurer
* Class Ability [Marshal (Motivate Intelligence)]: Cha mod to Int checks; Miniature's Handbook
* Class Ability [Fatemaker] Grant himself up to +10 morale bonus to any skill check once per day. He can grant up to a +2 morale bonus to someone else.; Planar Handbook
* Class Ability [Nobility Domain]: Can grant a +2 morale bonus on skill checks; SOURCE???
* Class Ability [The Emissary of Barachiel] Grant a +2 bonus on skill checks for 10 minutes; Book of Exalted Deeds
* Class Ability [Risen Martyr] Gain a +1 bonus on skill checks. This increases by +1 every 3rd level (level 10 would be a +4 bonus); Book of Exalted Deeds
* Class Ability [The Troubador of Stars] Grant a +2 or +4 morale bonus to skill checks; Book of Exalted Deeds.
* Class Ability [Ollam]: Grant allies a variable competance bonus on skill checks. For dwarven allies it caps out at +6, for non-dwarves +4.
* Class Ability [Bard]: Inspire competance gives a +2 competance bonus by expending a bardic music use.
* Class Ability [Fiend of Blasphemy (Transfer Spell-like Ability)]: At 2nd level, a fiend of blasphemy can use a power similar to the cleric spell imbue with spell ability to grant its cult members access to its spell-like abilities. You are limited to how many times you can do this per day; FF 201
* Class Ability [Fiend of Corruption (Fiend's Favor)]: 1st level: Once per day, a fiend of corruption can grant a touched creature a +3 bonus to one of the creature's ability scores. It stacks with all other bonuses and lasts one day. When it expires, the creature takes a -3 penalty for the next day. Another application not only negates the penalty, but restores a full bonus.; FF 203
* Class Ability [Fiend of Possession (Ally or Enemy)]: At 5th level, a fiend of possession can reward or punish a creature it is possessing. If the possessed creature is aware of the fiend's presence and willing to host the fiend, the fiend can bestow a +4 profane bonus on any of the creature's ability scores. This lasts as long as the fiend wills it to; FF 206

Spells/Powers/Utterances:

* Spell [Divine Insight]: 2nd level cleric spell 5 + CL (max +15) insight on next skill check.; Complete Adventurer
* Spell [Moment of Precience]: Insight bonus to any skill check = to your CL; PHB
* Utterance [Universal Aptitude]: +5 unnamed bonus to any skill check; Tome of Magic.
* Spell [Guidance]: 0th level cleric orison grants a +1 competance to any skill check; PHB
* Spell [Heroism]: 3rd level sor/wiz spell grants +2 morale bonus to any skill check for the duration; PHB
* Spell [Greater Heroism]: Bard 5 or Sor/wiz 6, +4 morale to any skill check; PHB.
* Spell [Prayer]: Cleric 3, +1 luck bonus to any skill check; PHB
* Spell [Good Hope]: Bard 3, +2 morale bonus to any skill check; PHB
* Power [Precognition]: Seer 1, +2 insight to any skill check; XPH
* Spell [Improvisation]: Bard 1st, luck bonus equal to up to half your caster level. The amount applied may be variable with a total bonus applied over the duration equal to 2*CL; Complete Adventurer, Spell Compendium. Note the SC version is 1st level and takes precedence over the CAdv version which cites it as a 5th level spell.
* Spell [Ray of Hope] grants a +2 morale bonus on skill checks; Book of Exalted Deeds
* Spell [Masochism]: grants +1 luck bonus to skill checks for every 10 points the caster takes. Take your infinite damage loop ideas onto the challenge board.; Book of Vile Darkness
* Spell [Sadism]: grants +1 luck bonus to skill checks for every 10 points the caster deals. Not as broken as masochism, but could be.; Book of Vile Darkness
* Spell [Power Leech]: You steal intelligence from a target and add it to your own. Amount stolen based on CL; Book of Vile Darkness.
* Spell [Share talent]: gives a +2 (unnamed!) bonus for 10 minutes/level.
* Spell [Insight of Good Fortune]: lets you roll a skill check twice (have to choose it beforehand, though).
* Spell [Master's Touch]: gives a +4 insight bonus to a skill check.

Racial & Miscellaneous:

* Racial Ability [Illumian Sigil (Naen)]: +1 to intelligence skill checks; Races of Destiny
* Racial Ability [Logokron Devil]: +10 racial bonus to truespeak
* Special Attack [Aid Another]: +2 unnamed bonus when another helps you. This is questionable; PHB
* Racial Ability [Racial Paragon Class]: Many racial paragon classes offer a boost to intelligence, which of course will increase the truespeak check; Unearthed Arcana
* Racial Ability [Elf Varients]: Grey Elf, Fire Elf, and other varients offer a modest +2 int bonus; Monster Manual, Faerun Campaign Setting, Unearthed Arcana
* Template [Phrenic]: Gives bonuses to int and charisma, when mixed with marshall this may provide a total +3 bonus among other nice psionic abilities; XPH.

Items:

* Item [Amulet of the Silver Tongue]: +5 or +10 (depending on magnitude of the item) enhancement bonus; Tome of Magic
* Item [Pale Green Ioun Stone]: +1 competance to any skill check; DMG
* Item [Luck Stone]: +1 luck to all skill checks; DMG
* Item [Candle of Invocation]: +2 morale bonus on all skill checks, while it burns (which lasts 4 hours); DMG
* Drug [Lihux]: grants a +2 alchemical bonus to all ability scores for up to 2 hours; Book of Vile Darkness
* Drug [Mushroom Powder]: grants a +2 alchemical bonus to Intelligence and Charisma for 1 hour; Book of Vile Darkness


The big one, of course, is the Item Familiar's bonus. It's in the SRD.

But there are plenty of other ways to go about it.

[MisterSaturnine]

Damn. That's one hell of a list.

Oh, and I think the Nobility Domain is from Sandstorm.

[Quietus]

Well, it's really a +3 bonus since you lose two skill points in the process. If you can buy off LA, maybe.

Carry around several +10 Shards of Truespeak, or take Leadership and have a small horde of lesser Truenamers follow you around and shout advice to you (Aiding Another). Or... Nanobots.

Mmmm, nanobots. Is there anything they CAN'T improve?

[Solo]

No, you can't. Unless you are talking epic level.

by level 20,

You can get a +10 item
You can get an intelligence of 36 (+13)
You can have 23 skill ranks (+23)
You can get +3 from Skill Focus

That is a +49, w/o custom items

The DC to be a buff/utility character at level 20 is 55. With a +49 modifier, you need a 6 on the die. That is the equivalent of having 25% arcane spell failure.

Going Exemplar for the ability to take 10 on any skill check, and a +4 bonus on said skill check, would fix that problem.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, you can. Here is a list of ways to improve your Truenaming check:

I'll cut out all the broken or racial only abilities.
Also I seperate 3.0.

Feats:

* Feat [Skill Focus (Truespeak)]: +3 unnamed; PHB
* Feat [Shape Soulmeld (Lucky Dice)]: +1 luck to any skill check; Magic of Incarnum
* Exalted Feat [Favored of the Champions/Knight of the Stars/Servant of the Heavens] Grants a +1 luck bonus 1 time per day; Book of Exalted Deeds

Class Abilities:

* Class Ability [Exemplar (Skill Artistry)]: +4 competance bonus; Complete Adventurer
* Class Ability [Marshal (Motivate Intelligence)]: Cha mod to Int checks; Miniature's Handbook
* Class Ability [Fatemaker] Grant himself up to +10 morale bonus to any skill check once per day. He can grant up to a +2 morale bonus to someone else.; Planar Handbook
* Class Ability [Nobility Domain]: Can grant a +2 morale bonus on skill checks; SOURCE???
* Class Ability [The Emissary of Barachiel] Grant a +2 bonus on skill checks for 10 minutes; Book of Exalted Deeds
* Class Ability [Risen Martyr] Gain a +1 bonus on skill checks. This increases by +1 every 3rd level (level 10 would be a +4 bonus); Book of Exalted Deeds
* Class Ability [The Troubador of Stars] Grant a +2 or +4 morale bonus to skill checks; Book of Exalted Deeds.
* Class Ability [Ollam]: Grant allies a variable competance bonus on skill checks. For dwarven allies it caps out at +6, for non-dwarves +4.
* Class Ability [Bard]: Inspire competance gives a +2 competance bonus by expending a bardic music use.

Spells/Powers/Utterances:

* Spell [Divine Insight]: 2nd level cleric spell 5 + CL (max +15) insight on next skill check.; Complete Adventurer
* Spell [Moment of Precience]: Insight bonus to any skill check = to your CL; PHB
* Utterance [Universal Aptitude]: +5 unnamed bonus to any skill check; Tome of Magic.
* Spell [Guidance]: 0th level cleric orison grants a +1 competance to any skill check; PHB
* Spell [Heroism]: 3rd level sor/wiz spell grants +2 morale bonus to any skill check for the duration; PHB
* Spell [Greater Heroism]: Bard 5 or Sor/wiz 6, +4 morale to any skill check; PHB.
* Spell [Prayer]: Cleric 3, +1 luck bonus to any skill check; PHB
* Spell [Good Hope]: Bard 3, +2 morale bonus to any skill check; PHB
* Power [Precognition]: Seer 1, +2 insight to any skill check; XPH
* Spell [Improvisation]: Bard 1st, luck bonus equal to up to half your caster level. The amount applied may be variable with a total bonus applied over the duration equal to 2*CL; Complete Adventurer, Spell Compendium. Note the SC version is 1st level and takes precedence over the CAdv version which cites it as a 5th level spell.
* Spell [Ray of Hope] grants a +2 morale bonus on skill checks; Book of Exalted Deeds
* Spell [Share talent]: gives a +2 (unnamed!) bonus for 10 minutes/level.
* Spell [Insight of Good Fortune]: lets you roll a skill check twice (have to choose it beforehand, though).
* Spell [Master's Touch]: gives a +4 insight bonus to a skill check.

Racial & Miscellaneous:

* Racial Ability [Logokron Devil]: +10 racial bonus to truespeak
* Special Attack [Aid Another]: +2 unnamed bonus when another helps you. This is questionable; PHB
* Racial Ability [Elf Varients]: Grey Elf, Fire Elf, and other varients offer a modest +2 int bonus; Monster Manual, Faerun Campaign Setting, Unearthed Arcana
* Template [Phrenic]: Gives bonuses to int and charisma, when mixed with marshall this may provide a total +3 bonus among other nice psionic abilities; XPH.

Items:

* Item [Amulet of the Silver Tongue]: +5 or +10 (depending on magnitude of the item) enhancement bonus; Tome of Magic
* Item [Pale Green Ioun Stone]: +1 competance to any skill check; DMG
* Item [Luck Stone]: +1 luck to all skill checks; DMG
* Item [Candle of Invocation]: +2 morale bonus on all skill checks, while it burns (which lasts 4 hours); DMG

It's in the SRD.

But there are plenty of other ways to go about it.

Now 3.0:

* Feat [Keen Intellect]: +1 unnamed to intelligence based checks; OA.
And all the Book of Vile Darkness (also 3.0)

[goat]

Going Exemplar for the ability to take 10 on any skill check, and a +4 bonus on said skill check, would fix that problem.

Personally, I think this the definition of what makes it a weak class. To have a viable build, you essentially HAVE to take dips into other classes.

[Icewalker]

Well at low levels it seems pretty fine. I'm actually playing a truenamer in a pbp right now (awesome character. Speaks 20 languages and doesn't have a name ) but anyways, he is 4th level, and has a Truespeak bonus of +18. I need a 5 on rolls to succeed. Annoying, especially with strings of bad luck, but not that bad...

Of course, that is only level 4. Sounds like they start sucking higher up.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Horrible at higher levles.

Truenamers should never be played beyond a low level.

[Maerok]

I think Truenaming would be great as a complimentary system, kind of like the UE rituals; dissolve the class and allow anyone who takes the Truename Training feat and takes ranks in Truespeaking to use Truenaming. But as a character's only means of combat and interaction, it seems tragically difficult to use. As I was reading the book, I kept asking myself how I can super-optimize to actually have chance at beating the DCs, and I'm no optimizer. I don't believe that they really thought about it before hand; more like they made up the system, realized it didn't work but wanted to maintain three different systems from ToM so they only made a few half-hearted attempt at Truename utterances; no wonder they listed it last.

"If yur base class requires you to optimize like hell, yoooouuu might wanna multiclass..."

[Goumindong]

...

And how do you get these spells and class abilties as a truenamer?

[Starbuck_II]

And how do you get these spells and class abilties as a truenamer?

People cast them on you as buffs or you multiclass.

[Kyeudo]

Truenaming would be more effective if you change the formula for the Truespeak DC to 15 + CR + (2 x Utterance Level). Saves you a bit without overpowering the class.

[JaxGaret]

And how do you get these spells and class abilties as a truenamer?

People cast them on you as buffs or you multiclass.

Precisely.

That or get UMD as a class skill and UMD the items. This works well with a 1-level dip in Marshal for the Cha synergy with +Cha to Int skill checks from Motivate Intelligence. Then you are DAD - dual ability dependent with Int and Cha, but that's not so bad.

[Fax Celestis]

What they should have done was assigned DCs based on utterance level, and made the skill check a truenamer level check, so that it's suddenly much harder to boost. (That Truename Training feat would make your other classes count towards truenamer levels, I imagine.) That way, your high-level utterances are still unreliable, but you'll be using low-level utterances more or less as often as you like, and can actually make use of things like Quicken Utterance.

A fix I've theorized but not tried is changing the DCs to 15 + (3*Utterance Level) + Law of Resistance, and making the Truename skill only receive bonuses from synergies, feat expenditure, actual ranks, and your Int mod.

The reason for the crazy DC scale is because skill items are remarkably easy to come by.

[Azerian Kelimon]

And you need another class to half-work, and a dependency in items.


Way to go. Maybe add Exemplar for taking 10 and aleph one levels of factotum for a once per day bonus to the check!

[String]

Well, right now, I have a +17 at lvl4, and I dont like multiclassing (strikes me as needlessly complicated). And that's with the lesser Truespeak amulet

+7 ranks
+5 bonus from a 20 Int
+5 from the Amulet.

So I presume that at 6 I pick up Skill Focus (Truespeak)

Bringing me to

9 ranks
5 Int bonus
5 amulet
4 feat
__
+23. Meaning to buff, I would need a 4. When I get the Greater amulet, it'll be 19 plus whatever ranks I have, plus any Int-Booster items.

[Fax Celestis]

Nitpick: Skill Focus provides +3, not +4.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Nitpick: Skill Focus provides +3, not +4.

He might be using Skill Artistry for +4.