Ways to Get Stunning Fist?

[ATHATH]

I've been staring at the monk a bit, and I've realized that, technically, if you trade away your first level monk bonus feat (and thus Stunning Fist) for an ACF (such as, say, Nauseating Strike) and then take it later with a normal feat slot, you'd still get to add your Monk level to your Stunning Fist uses/day.

Outside of waiting until your BAB eventually gets high enough to take it normally or taking the first level of Monk, are there any ways to nab Stunning Fist without meeting its prerequisites? Some ACF for another class that gives you Monk bonus feats, perhaps? Or a prestige class that gives it to you if you don't already have it?

[Zarvistic]

Its a fighter bonus feat so you could take it at level 2 with martial monk.

[ATHATH]

There's a Ranger ACF that gives Stunning Fist... at 11th level. Darn. I guess that's still handy for, like, Gestalt?

Its a fighter bonus feat so you could take it at level 2 with martial monk.

True, but we're gonna bust out Martial Monk, we might as well just take an [Epic] feat or something.

[Inevitability]

Shintao Monk gets bonus feats from a list that doesn't specify you need to meet the prerequisites, including Stunning Fist, so that might do the trick.

Entering Shintao Monk requires Still Mind, so 3 monk levels or 4 archivist levels.

[ATHATH]

Shintao Monk gets bonus feats from a list that doesn't specify you need to meet the prerequisites, including Stunning Fist, so that might do the trick.

Entering Shintao Monk requires Still Mind, so 3 monk levels or 4 archivist levels.

I did find that when searching for classes with "Stunning Fist" in their class feature descriptions, but I think that would fall under the same clause that covers Fighter bonus feats, no? Like, the ability doesn't specifically say that I can ignore prerequisites, so I can't.

[ATHATH]

One source that I checked mentioned a "Golarion Monk" ACF that shuffles around the bonus feat list a bit, moving Stunning Fist to level 2 in the process. Unfortunately, I couldn't actually find this anywhere upon further research.

[Zarvistic]

One source that I checked mentioned a "Golarion Monk" ACF that shuffles around the bonus feat list a bit, moving Stunning Fist to level 2 in the process. Unfortunately, I couldn't actually find this anywhere upon further research.

Thats from pathfinder campaign setting.

On martial monk: just taking stunning fist at 2 doesnt seem all that crazy use of it tho. You even end up paying for that shuffle by the skill points lost.

[Inevitability]

I did find that when searching for classes with "Stunning Fist" in their class feature descriptions, but I think that would fall under the same clause that covers Fighter bonus feats, no? Like, the ability doesn't specifically say that I can ignore prerequisites, so I can't.

As far as I know, there's no direct ruling about meeting prerequisites for bonus feats that don't mention them either way? There's bonus feats that specifically say you need to meet the prereqs, and feats that specifically say you don't need to meet them, but I don't remember seeing a rule that says everything defaults one way or another.

[Troacctid]

As far as I know, there's no direct ruling about meeting prerequisites for bonus feats that don't mention them either way? There's bonus feats that specifically say you need to meet the prereqs, and feats that specifically say you don't need to meet them, but I don't remember seeing a rule that says everything defaults one way or another.

The default rule for feats is that you have to meet their prerequisites.

[Inevitability]

The default rule for feats is that you have to meet their prerequisites.

Yeah, and the default rule for bonus feats is that you don't need the prerequisites to use them.

"Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."


So making that fit together... I guess you need to qualify for bonus feat Stunning Fist to get it, but not to use it? In which case lycanthropy shenanigans (get infected to boost BAB, take feat, get cured) might do the trick.

[ShurikVch]

As far as I know, there's no direct ruling about meeting prerequisites for bonus feats that don't mention them either way? There's bonus feats that specifically say you need to meet the prereqs, and feats that specifically say you don't need to meet them, but I don't remember seeing a rule that says everything defaults one way or another.

The default rule for feats is that you have to meet their prerequisites.

The general rule for Bonus Feats is in the Monster Manual - Reading The Monster Entries:

Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

All the requirements to have the prerequisites - like in the case of Fighter's Bonus Feats - are exceptions from this rule

[Saintheart]

Rather than pick up stunning via Stunning Fist, you could look at Claytons' Stunning Fists like the Sudden Stunning (DMG 2) or Stunning Surge (MIC) weapon qualities. These link to CHA/day, but Stunning Surge is 1 round of stun, and Sudden Stunning is 1d4+1 rounds, they scale, and IIRC Stunning Surge doesn't target the Fort save.

If the problem is number of uses per day, have this quality on a couple of Ward Cestus (A&EG) (Cestii?) which then gives you the hit 2 x CHA/day on your unarmed strikes. Or on a Shield and the Shield's Spikes, make a Shield Slam. Or on both ends of a quarterstaff and go with TWF -- or even flurry, since a monk can use unarmed strikes interchangeably with a monk weapon, which a quarterstaff is. Or go all out and get both qualities on two Ward Cestii, both ends of a quarterstave, and on a Necklace of Natural Attacks. Total of 10xCHA/day stunning attacks since a Monk can use any part of his body for an unarmed strike, the quarterstaff can be used as part of a flurry, and the Ward Cestus goes over your knuckles like a gauntlet.

EDIT: In fact it could be raised to a total of 14xCHA/day stunning attacks, if you enchant and use two Blade Boots (FRCS) - as opposed to Boot Blades (CSco). When a monk uses Blade Boots, they attack as if unarmed, i.e. it's one more set of Sudden Stunning and Stunning Surge items.

Or look at other stuff that sort-of stuns, like Staggering Strike or effects that daze the enemy. A fair amount of stuff eventually winds up immune to stun.

[Darg]

As far as I know, there's no direct ruling about meeting prerequisites for bonus feats that don't mention them either way? There's bonus feats that specifically say you need to meet the prereqs, and feats that specifically say you don't need to meet them, but I don't remember seeing a rule that says everything defaults one way or another.

Martial monk is contentious for no reason whatsoever other than people WANTING it to be broken because they think monk is terrible.

This variant simply swaps one or more of a class's features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below.

Lose: -1 skill point per level (and -4 skill points at 1st level); no Knowledge skills as class skills.

Gain: Fighter bonus feat list to choose monk bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level); Intimidate is class skill.

Multiclass Options: This monk can multiclass between fighter and monk with no penalty.

It's obviously giving the monk the bonus feat feature of a fighter. But RAW could technically go either way even if the intent behind it is 100% unambiguous.

[Zarvistic]

Martial monk is contentious for no reason whatsoever other than people WANTING it to be broken because they think monk is terrible.



It's obviously giving the monk the bonus feat feature of a fighter. But RAW could technically go either way even if the intent behind it is 100% unambiguous.

I dont know about 100%, the example martial monk listed right under the variant is using it to get spring attack without qualifying for it. Could be editing error ofcourse but still.

[Pezzo]

It's obviously giving the monk the bonus feat feature of a fighter. But RAW could technically go either way even if the intent behind it is 100% unambiguous.

It's improving the monk's class feature, expanding the list of feats that can be selected. If it was replacing it, it would say so.

True, but we're gonna bust out Martial Monk, we might as well just take an [Epic] feat or something.

Epic fighter bonus feats is an extra list of feats available to epic fighters, fighter bonus feats are feats that state they are fighter bonus feats in their description, epic fighter bonus feats don't have that.

I doubt this will be helpful, but punpun or an illithid savant can gain the monk's bonus feat class feature.

[Saintheart]

Wand of Heroics could also give you Stunning Fist for a while

[St Fan]

Wand of Heroics could also give you Stunning Fist for a while

A feat granted by the heroics spell still needs to meet the prerequisites.

[St Fan]

The general rule for Bonus Feats is in the Monster Manual - Reading The Monster Entries:

That's the general rule for MONSTER bonus feats only.

All the requirements to have the prerequisites - like in the case of Fighter's Bonus Feats - are exceptions from this rule

No, it's the reverse: all bonus feat groups that stat to be waving the prerequisites are the exception to the general rule that feats require their prerequisites.

This canard has already been discussed at length, notably in the RAW threads, and yet it comes back regularly, that's amazing.

[ATHATH]

This canard has already been discussed at length, notably in the RAW threads, and yet it comes back regularly, that's amazing.

Yeah, I'd prefer it if this thread didn't devolve into another Martial Monk debate.

I'll take a look at those weapon enhancements, although I am a bit disappointed that the build I'm making now probably won't involve actually being a monk. Oh well.

[St Fan]

I'll take a look at those weapon enhancements, although I am a bit disappointed that the build I'm making now probably won't involve actually being a monk. Oh well.

What is the ACF you want to exchange for the 1st-level monk bonus feat? We can look at it from the other side and see if it's obtainable in a different way, freeing up the monk levels.

[ATHATH]

What is the ACF you want to exchange for the 1st-level monk bonus feat? We can look at it from the other side and see if it's obtainable in a different way, freeing up the monk levels.

Soulwarp Strike, aka "I can't believe it's not Stunning Fist!". I basically just wanted to effectively double my Stunning Strikes per day.

[ShurikVch]

I'll take a look at those weapon enhancements, although I am a bit disappointed that the build I'm making now probably won't involve actually being a monk. Oh well.

FWIW, the Fists of Dal Quor PrC (Secrets of Sarlona) got the Stunning Strike class feature, which works almost exactly like the Stunning Fist feat - except you can make it with a weapon (in addition to the "usual" unarmed attack), and spend power points for higher DC (Although, it required "Chosen, Inspired, or kalashtar")

No, it's the reverse: all bonus feat groups that stat to be waving the prerequisites are the exception to the general rule that feats require their prerequisites.

No:
"Feats need prerequisites" is a general rule;
"Bonus Feats don't need prerequisites" is a specific rule (along with other specific rules - like "Bonus Feats can't be retrained");
"Fighter's Bonus Feats need prerequisites" (and Wizard's Bonus Feats, and any other set of Bonus Feats which ask for prerequisites) is just even more specific rule. (Otherwise - why so many classes specifying the need to meet the prerequisites for the Bonus Feats they providing?)
For example: Jester class (Dragon Compendium) grants Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows bonus feats (at 2nd and 6th levels respectively), and the only "prerequisite" it asks for is ranks in Perform (comedy); and no - it doesn't says those feats are prerequisite-free; in your interpretation, does it mean Jester wouldn't be able to Deflect/Snatch Arrows until they got Improved Unarmed Strike (and Dex 13/15 - if they don't have it this high)?

That's the general rule for MONSTER bonus feats only.

Yes. And?.. "Monsters" are just Characters which are controlled by DM

This canard has already been discussed at length, notably in the RAW threads

Any links, if possible?

[Saintheart]

Soulwarp Strike, aka "I can't believe it's not Stunning Fist!". I basically just wanted to effectively double my Stunning Strikes per day.

Well, imposing the sickened condition by hitting someone really hard can be achieved by Brutal Strike, and your unarmed strikes are bludgeoning weapons generally.

Sickening Grasp does the same for gishes for at least one round even if they save.

Sickening Strike does it for those with sneak attack.

Getting the nauseated condition is a bit tougher, but some sort of channelling or Spellblade weapon combined with something like Stinking Cloud can achieve similar. Nauseating Breath is a 3rd level spell on the Sor, Wiz, and Clr lists, thus, eminently suitable for wands. Finger of Agony (CMage) is 4th level but shenanigans with Sanctum Spell could drop it to make it wand-eligible.

FWIW, the Fists of Dal Quor PrC (Secrets of Sarlona) got the Stunning Strike class feature, which works almost exactly like the Stunning Fist feat - except you can make it with a weapon (in addition to the "usual" unarmed attack), and spend power points for higher DC (Although, it required "Chosen, Inspired, or kalashtar")

Sudden Willow Strike (PGtE) also allows Stunning Fist to be transmitted through one's quarterstaff, and given it applies only to use of one weapon an Aptitude weapon would allow you to apply it to any weapon. If you don't want to spend the feat, the Ki Focus (DMG) weapon quality at +1 allows you to transmit Stunning Fist and any other ki strike abilities to be through your weapon too.