Does a level 20 mystic theuruge suck.

[Emperor Demonking]

I know I spelt the name wrong, but the question still stands.

You probably won't be as good as single class wizard/sorcerer or a cleric but you'd still be better than most.

[Dhavaer]

Not so much; the suck is mostly due to it being very weak to start with. At 20th you have 9th level arcane and 7th level divine, though (assuming wizard/cleric), so you'll always have something to contribute.

[Emperor Demonking]

What level does it stop sucking.

[Dhavaer]

Hard to say. No earlier than level 16, probably.

[ZeroNumerous]

The problem is that every level leading up to 18th(9th wizard/6th divine) is spent a full spell level behind your pure wizard/cleric buddies.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The problem with Mystic Theurge is they suck but really don't gain anything. Wizards and Clerics have exclusive spells but do fine without each others. A Mystic Theurge sacrifices quality for quantity and quantity is what wins every time. A full non-multiclassed caster can actually cast more spells than a Theurge since he has more options for quicken.

Having lots of weak spells just makes the battle last longer, which considering you have less healing and HP than a cleric isn't a good idea.

[Tengu]

Hmm, if there's another prestige class that advances arcane and divine casting at each level (I recall Geomancer from 3.0, though the divine side had to be a druid), you can combine it with Mystic Theurge and have both spell sides at level 9 that way. Though it's probably worthwhile only at those very high levels anyway.

PS. How can you get level 9 arcane spells with Mystic Theurge at level 18?

[Capoeira]

Um, Ive played mystic theurges that were extremely, powerfully imbalanced.

Its really only the first 6 levels that make them suck for me...

Once you get a wizard3/cleric4 (with the RIGHT domains for this type of build) and add a level of mystic in, youve got a wizard 4/cleric5 functionally... there are feats you need to counter the loss of a few casterlevels though...

...but you can find enough magic feats these days to make a level 4 ranger look like merlin...

Anyway, If you go mt9/cleric8/wiz3 you sacrafice one effective level of mid-arcane caster to get a 3rd attack each round.... which if built correctly makes you an enlarged, holy, righteous, mighty, adamantine, flaming, concealed, true-striking juggernaught of multiple combat effects that were never meant to be combined by mortals.

Course its easier if you go scor/spiritshaman of something to reduce the stat spread

[kemmotar]

Well...The things with mystic theurge is that except for spell levels you miss out on caster levels which make your dispell magic, as well as other spells too, weaker. Thus the 20th level pure wizard just timestops, summon monster XI 4 times and the disinitigrate you once in a while just to see if you'll fail your save and save him the trouble...Whatever you do, if it has higher spell levels it will probably win...no need for optimization even...pure wizard 20 is far better than mystic theurge. Sure you have more spell than any single class and you can outlast any other spellcasting class but they don't need to outlast you...just use a 9th level spell you don't have save or suck preferably, spell focus and gr. spell focus and then the battle is pretty much over...Even faster if he has the fatespinner PrC...

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm, if there's another prestige class that advances arcane and divine casting at each level (I recall Geomancer from 3.0, though the divine side had to be a druid), you can combine it with Mystic Theurge and have both spell sides at level 9 that way. Though it's probably worthwhile only at those very high levels anyway.

PS. How can you get level 9 arcane spells with Mystic Theurge at level 18?

By cheating with quick caster advancement PrC's, generally. Find something that gets you 2nd level Divine spells with just one level, and you're there.

Most such combos I've seen, though, require at least two off-levels, granting your high-end Arcane spells at 19th (e.g., the Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-10 is an 18th level character that casts as a Wiz-16 and an Ur-Priest 12 - which is 8th level Arcane, 9th level Divine, and depending on reading, an Ur-Priest caster level of either 20 or 14). You can get 9th level Divine spells a lot earlier than that, though.

[Kaelik]

By cheating with quick caster advancement PrC's, generally. Find something that gets you 2nd level Divine spells with just one level, and you're there.

Most such combos I've seen, though, require at least two off-levels, granting your high-end Arcane spells at 19th (e.g., the Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-10 is an 18th level character that casts as a Wiz-16 and an Ur-Priest 12 - which is 8th level Arcane, 9th level Divine, and depending on reading, an Ur-Priest caster level of either 20 or 14). You can get 9th level Divine spells a lot earlier than that, though.

I'm curious, does no one actually know the pre-reqs for Ur-Priest? At waht point in Wizard 5/Mindbender 1, did you get a base save of +3 Fort?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm curious, does no one actually know the pre-reqs for Ur-Priest? At waht point in Wizard 5/Mindbender 1, did you get a base save of +3 Fort?

Mindbender is in Complete Arcane; it gives a good Fort save. Take a look at the class sometime. Wizard-5 gives a base Fort of +1, Mindbender gives a base Fort of +2. It technically works, even if it is a bit odd.

[Kurald Galain]

You probably won't be as good as single class wizard/sorcerer or a cleric but you'd still be better than most.

Precisely.

I believe Mystic Theurge is balanced. It is weaker than a straight Wizard or Cleric, yes, but those are considered top tier classes for a reason, and can easily be called overpowered compared to, say, barbarians or bards.

MTs are extremely versatile (plus you still get to combine them with domain powers as well as specialist wizards) and won't run out of spells any time this century. That means they're nice in small parties, solo missions, stories with more than the "standard" four encounters per day, and anything where time is of the essence and you can't rest.

[Goumindong]

Or just take great fortitude.

Anyway, in general Mystic Theruges do not suck. They get a bad rap because they arent as good as Straight Clerics or Straight Wizards or Straight Sorcerers.

They are still a lot better than Fighters and Bards and any other non-full caster progressing class though

[Yuki Akuma]

Or just take great fortitude.

Nope, doesn't work. You need a base Fort save of +3. Great Fortitude just gives you an unnamed bonus to Fort saves.

[EntilZha]

If you've taken the Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) and Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) feats, it will suck a lot less, if at all.

[RoboticSheeple]

A 20th lvl MT is less powerful than a cleric with the leadership feat or a wizard with the leadership feat (core build, I haven't investigated all the PrC options). So yeah, I'd say it sucks.

[Kaelik]

A 20th lvl MT is less powerful than a cleric with the leadership feat or a wizard with the leadership feat (core build, I haven't investigated all the PrC options). So yeah, I'd say it sucks.

Everything is less powerful then anything with Leadership (yes that's exaggeration.)

Leadership is the most broken thing in D&D besides Pun-Pun. Leadership is more broken then Planar Shepard or Batman. Because Leadership gives you a free lvl 18 Batman to go with whatever you have, and then lets you get tons of Planar Shepards, one for each Plane, all around level 15.

Leadership is not a comparison for anything.

Mindbender is in Complete Arcane; it gives a good Fort save. Take a look at the class sometime. Wizard-5 gives a base Fort of +1, Mindbender gives a base Fort of +2. It technically works, even if it is a bit odd.

I know what and where Mindbender is. I just didn't know that it had a good Fort progression, because that's dumb (but useful).

[Goumindong]

Leadership exists for 1-2 person games i think becaues yea, its pretty freaking broken.

[TheSteelRat]

[quote] Hmm, if there's another prestige class that advances arcane and divine casting at each level (I recall Geomancer from 3.0, though the divine side had to be a druid), you can combine it with Mystic Theurge and have both spell sides at level 9 that way. Though it's probably worthwhile only at those very high levels anyway.[/unquote]

There's also Arcane Hierophant, from Races of the Wild, which is a Druid (or Ranger) / Arcane combination. Requires you to be lvl 7 though before entry. Gives medium BAB, druid armor use with spellcasting, and changes your animal companion and familiar into the familiar companion of death. Dire Tiger with intelligence and access to all of the "familiar" buff spells? Yes, please. Oh, and it stacks with Wild Shape. This is more of an uber caster-melee build, combined with such feats as Natural Spell, Companion Spellbond (increases range of shared spell effects), Natural Bond, Practiced Spellcaster.

You'll also be behind though on spellcasting by approximately 3 levels with each build type. With AH, you're behind an extra level in one of your classes, since you need to fulfill the BAB requirement. For Wizard / Cleric, that's entry at level 7, and -3 to each spell level, so you'll reach parity at level 20, when you get 9th level spells in one of your classes. Though some DM's might allow you to extend the class beyond 10 levels, you can even get both at 9th level classes. While that might be 'epic' rules, and not RAW, it's something to consider for the build and check with your DM.

You're basically losing the flashy new spells that are uber-powerful, such as Teleport, Wish, Shapechange, Gate, which everyone else has, for a greater variety of spells you have access to, which can be very, very nice in some situations, but not so great in others. You have more spells per day, but each one of those has a lower save DC, lower duration / effect (unless you take Practiced Spellcaster), and generally less powerful than a straight wizard or cleric. In good news though, you'll have slightly higher HP, ability to inflict or heal damage by giving up spell slots, and be a buff-monster. With Cleric or Druid on one side, you've got all your utility spells, so your Wizard side can focus more on Batman-style (or whatever-style) spells, without having to worry about preparing buff spells for other party members.

Also, you can make Golems. That's right, MT's are typically the only single character that can make a Golem. "Animate Object" is a Cleric / Bard Spell only, and the rest of the list is typically Wizard spells. Just something to throw out there.

[Curmudgeon]

If you've taken the Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) and Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) feats, it will suck a lot less, if at all.

That helps a lot. Beyond not sucking, you get good bang for the buck as a Mystic Theurge for anything that will help your spellcasting ability and doesn't distinguish between arcane and divine casting:

• An Orange Ioun stone boosts caster level for all your casting classes.
• A Bead of Karma requires divine casting to use, but bumps up your caster level +4 for all spells for 10 minutes.
• Clerical domains that grant +1 or +2 caster levels for particular types of spells, like abjuration (from the Purification domain), work on your arcane spells of that type, too.
• Metamagic feats can be applied to all your spells.
• The Inquisition domain grants +4 to your dispel checks. It doesn't distinguish between divine and arcane, or among Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Reaving Dispel. This is a great boost, as it powers through the supposed "dispel-proof" caster levels for things like Permanency. Poof!
• Items and spells that let you recover spent spells, like Pearls of Power and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, work with all your spells.

[wowy319]

Geomancer is a far better class. It can actually work with clerics in 3.5, so go with that.


As for it sucking... No. An ECL 20 mystic theruge is not a great spellcaster in the sense of high-level spells, but in versatility, it's decent.

My opinion of the PrC: It doesn't suck, but it's not good. Geomancer is a far better alternative, simply due to the fact that it gives you the benefit of armored casting and various other combat-boosting abilities.

[Tengu]

If you've taken the Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) and Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) feats, it will suck a lot less, if at all.

Practiced Spellcaster does not give you more spells, or access to higher levels of them, though.

[Maerok]

It's overwhelmingly sad that anything that can cast practically any arcane or divine spell is being described as sucking. So what if it doesn't invoke apocalyptic death as well as the next spellcaster? The point is that it can invoke apocalyptic death at all.

[EntilZha]

Practiced Spellcaster does not give you more spells, or access to higher levels of them, though.

True, but a MT needs all the help he or she can get.

[Fishy]

Why are we all saying Cleric and not Archivist? You weren't using the armor, the int synergy is very nice, and if you want to cast all arcane and most divine spells, why not be completely greedy?

[Dausuul]

Suck is relative.

Compared to a full caster, MTs suck until very late in the game.

Compared to non-casters, however, it's a good, balanced class for most of its progression.

[JaxGaret]

Why are we all saying Cleric and not Archivist? You weren't using the armor, the int synergy is very nice, and if you want to cast all arcane and most divine spells, why not be completely greedy?

Archivist/Wizard is the optimal MT build.

That or Druid/Wizard with Arcane Hierophant and a few levels of MT.

Suck is relative.

Compared to a full caster, MTs suck until very late in the game.

Compared to non-casters, however, it's a good, balanced class for most of its progression.

Quoted for great truth.

[MisterSaturnine]

Wait, quick question about Practiced Spellcaster (sorry to change the subject, but now I'm vaguely interested in a Mystic Theurge )--

What exactly does it do? I know it raises caster level 4 levels (but no more than HD), so it helps with multiclass. Does it simply raise the level of effect (for things like Fireball) so it does, say, 7d6 instead of 3d6? Or does it basically add +4 to existing spellcasting class, meaning you can cast higher level spells (meaning that, if you go into Mystic Theurge as a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 and take Practiced Spellcaster, you took 2nd level spells at Wizard 3 and then at your first level of Mystic Theurge, now at an effective level of 7 for Wizard, take some 4th level spells and skip 3rd level entirely)?

[Azerian Kelimon]

The first one. You don't get new spells or any of the other bonuses, your spells are just more powerful.