New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation

[Velaryon]

I think 2/5 is a bit harsh. I'd give this a 3. The message is worthy and it could've been executed better but was still not that badly done. Perhaps the audience could've been made to feel the stakes a bit more if Roga had had a couple lines about having a family he left behind to serve his country and now he can't go back because of what was done to him or something, but I'm not really sure it's necessary. The point is to show that this planet exploited its soldiers and then threw them away instead of taking care of them afterward, which is a pretty transparent allegory for how lots of modern societies have done the same thing to their own veterans. Given that WW2 and especially Vietnam were very much in living memory at the time this came out, they really didn't need to work too hard to establish that context.

It's a very archetypal Roddenberry-era Trek episode, nothing amazing but there have been plenty of worse ones.

[GloatingSwine]

Imean, First Blood was a social sci-fi about the society that created these super soldiers and how it tried to bury them and what that says about a society when it does that, but 3/5 of the episode and the entire movie is about that one guy. And that's one of the best movies ever made.

And if John had spend 3/5 of the movie on a spaceship not interacting with the society that had wronged him, and all the wrongs were offscreen background, it probably wouldn't be.

Presentation matters more than factual structure. First Blood shows the things that The Hunted doesn't but needed to (how society sees John Rambo, what turned him into that, and the active wrongs currently being done to him in a way that mirrors his treatment as a POW), and shows things from a perspective The Hunted doesn't and needed to (Much more inside the head of Rambo). That's why it's really good and The Hunted is a mid tier episode of TNG, neither good nor bad enough to be particularly memorable.

[Caledonian]

That's not what I said. I never said the Borg Queen served the same function as an insect queen. I said the Borg are based on hive insects and hive insects have a queen, therefore the Borg have a queen.

Equivocation fallacy. The "queen" of an insect colony isn't anything like the "queen" of the Borg. The problem here is that the writers were starting with the popular conception of a hive queen that equates the role to that of a human monarchy. Which is grossly ignorant. Insect queens have nothing to do with leadership or direction, and are just as much subjects to the collective as any worker.

It was originally noted that the Borg cubes were so redundant and unspecialized that the Federation would have to destroy most of any one cube before its essential functions would be notably disrupted. Having a Borg Queen whose death sends the Borg into collapse and disarray is in complete contradiction to both the show itself and the real-world concept it's referring to.

[hamishspence]

Maybe someone on the First Contact writing team was a big fan of the Ender's Game novel. That has the exact same "take out the Queen/Queens and the hive is defeated" concept.

It may also be the prototype for "superintelligent, telepathic queen commands hive" concept - the much older Starship Troopers novel, by contrast, doesn't have the queens as the military commanders - instead it has "brain bugs" that do the commanding, and the queens just do the producing.

Since the Borg Queen isn't a mother, generally speaking, with new Borg being obtained via assimilation, she may owe a bit more to "Brain Bugs" than to "Hive Queens".

[Caledonian]

In TNG the Borg gestate new bodies; they're not dependent upon assimilation to maintain themselves, merely to gain new abilities and technologies.

[hamishspence]

That's one interpretation of "the baby in Q-Who." Another is that they even capture and assimilate babies. The episode itself doesn't say for certain.

(the characters speculate that "born in the Collective" is how it works - but the existence of very young assimilatees, such as Seven, and Icheb's younger compatriots, may cast doubt on that).

[Caledonian]

They have the technology to breed new Borg, they'd face serious staffing shortages if they didn't breed new Borg, ergo we can reasonably conclude that they do.

They're not zombies or undead. They're much more terrifying than that.

[hamishspence]

It's stated in Voyager that Borg assimilate only, and do not reproduce (the episode "One" - with Seven's reaction to the accidental creation of a fetal Borg)

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Maturation_chamber

And the Borg Queen herself, in that series, was "assimilated as a child" (the Unimatrix Zero two-parter episode).

[KillianHawkeye]

I disagree strongly that the details of Roga's life before he became a super-soldier are relevant. The story is allegorical. And despite the focus being on one guy for most of the episode, the story isn't about him. Roga is merely a symbol, representing an entire class of mistreated people. It's about ALL of them.

We don't need to know what life Roga wants to go back to. It's enough that he cannot do so, that his rights and freedoms were taken away by the very society that he fought to defend. The issue isn't what the soldiers would be doing if they were welcomed back into society, it's the fact that they're being forced to rebel and fight for basic equality.

The crew of the Enterprise intersects with this story just long enough to learn about it, have a few personal growth conversations, give a teachable moral lesson, and then decide to leave the planet and see if they can solve their own problems (with a few sci-fi action scenes thrown in for entertainment value). It's pretty much a classic Star Trek episode.

[DigoDragon]

And the Borg Queen herself, in that series, was "assimilated as a child" (the Unimatrix Zero two-parter episode).

Oh wow, that is... something I never knew. Thought the queen was exclusive to the movie. I definitely missed some Voyager episodes. XD

[Kantaki]

Oh wow, that is... something I never knew. Thought the queen was exclusive to the movie. I definitely missed some Voyager episodes. XD

"Missed" might not be the right word here.
But yeah, she pops up a few times.

[factotum]

"Missed" might not be the right word here.
But yeah, she pops up a few times.

She's a fairly significant presence in the second season of Star Trek: Picard as well.

[Caledonian]

It's stated in Voyager

Which was notoriously poorly written by people who didn't care about internal or external consistency. The Borg were already ruined by the time of Voyager.

[DigoDragon]

Which was notoriously poorly written by people who didn't care about internal or external consistency. The Borg were already ruined by the time of Voyager.

The Borg Queen was killed in First Contact, but she's in Voyager (so I have been just informed). I'm curious if it's the same person and if that means she isn't killed in Voyager just to show up in First Contact?

[factotum]

Pretty sure the Queens are not the same people. The one in ST:Picard dies during the series as well, and we're talking "close range shotgun blast to the head" dead in that case.

[hamishspence]

It's a different actress (until the last episode, in which it's Alice Krige, the same one as in the movie). However, all the Voyager Borg episodes where the Queen appears, as far as I'm aware, are set after First Contact. First Contact takes place is 2373, and the Queen starts appearing in Voyager in 2375.

Possibly, every time a Queen dies, the Borg just clone a new one from the biological material they have, and transfer stored memories into the clone. Given how a big deal is made of how the Queen was present and overseeing Picard's assimilation, and Picard comments along the lines of "That cube was destroyed - how did you survive" - the Queen may have been physically present, offscreen, and destroyed, in The Best of Both Worlds Part II.

[factotum]

Given the highly networked nature of the Borg that actually makes a great deal of sense, although it maybe makes even less sense that they choose to embody this long-term Borg memory in a single entity rather than, say, just spread across all the cubes making up the Borg. That would actually be much cooler to me--the "Queen" isn't a single thing you can attack, but a presence almost like a god that won't go away unless you completely annihilate all Borg everywhere.

[Caledonian]

Or we could have the Borg as they originally were - which was a collective with no individual personas that was multiply redundant and impossible to destroy without destroying each and every Borg.

There's no NEED to personify the collective as an individual!

[hamishspence]

No changes need to be made to anything in Star Trek - but changes are made, because writers think they make the changed beings more interesting.

Klingons didn't need to become allies to the Federation after TOS - but they did become allies - and IMO became a bit more interesting in the process.

They didn't need to gain bumpy foreheads - but they got them - because it made them more visually distinctive.

And so on.

[Caledonian]

And taking the uniform and faceless collective, which is interchangeable and redundant to the nth degree, and incarnating it in an individual - an individual that is essential to the functioning of the Borg - doesn't make the Borg more interesting.

It makes the Borg easier to write for lazy writers.

[russdm]

i could have given a higher score yah, but it didn't feel like the episode deserved it. it is on the tail end of mediocrty and could have been slightly better to be just average. it was missing some stuff.

as for the borg stuff

lalalalalalalala, i'm not listening

on the TNG, we will have our first "Terrorist" Episode...

[GloatingSwine]

Or we could have the Borg as they originally were - which was a collective with no individual personas that was multiply redundant and impossible to destroy without destroying each and every Borg.

There's no NEED to personify the collective as an individual!

That lasted one episode before we were shown the collective personified as an individual (Locutus) because sometimes they find it a valuable tool to have.

[DigoDragon]

There's no NEED to personify the collective as an individual!

Yeah, I'm finding myself in agreement here. The queen worked alright for the movie. The writers could just write it off as the Borg trying something new and when that failed they abandon the idea.

Also, what ever became of

Spoiler

Show

Hu and the Borg units that gained individualism? I think the last episode they were in was when Lore took over as their "leader"?

[hamishspence]

Also, what ever became of

Spoiler

Show

Hu and the Borg units that gained individualism? I think the last episode they were in was when Lore took over as their "leader"?

Spoiler

Show

Hugh gets a moderately major role in the first season of Picard.

[russdm]

The terrorist episode

Season 3 Episode 12
The High Ground
Stardate: 43510.7

[Plot]
the crew have come to a place that is dealing with separatists who have been doing bombings. the crew beam down armed. worf is with crusher and data. naturally, a bombing happens and crusher has to help. she makes worf do stuff and refuses to leave, claiming she is doing triage and being a doctor {actually from what I remember from the scene, she treats like 3 people at most}. picard talks to her and she has to be difficult.

so no one tells off the doctor and she doesn't even think to beam up with a patient, which can be done. of course she gets captured.

the crew can't find her because the separatists (terrorists) have a special transportation system. crusher has a tiff or argument with the terrorist leader but not really. in reality, she is slightly attracted to him

riker works with the security forces to find out where the doctor is {can't they just leave her behind? it's not like she does anything and what about the other medical people on the ship that could have beamed down}

crusher flirts with the terrorist leader who sends his buddy to blow up the ship and when that fails, the leader decides to kidnap picard for reasons {which are really crappy}

crusher has learned that the special travel method is fatal later on, which is not a problem with the terrorists. picard chews out crusher but not really. the terrorist leader decides to kill picard

riker comes to save the day and the terrorist leader dies

some kid puts down his weapon

[Rating]
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)

{Episode Commentary}
By Q, this is an awful episode.

it was made in the time of the "Troubles", you know, the irish problems, which affects the episode by trying to make the terrorist leader be sympathic and all with the pro Irish America of the time. Which I am not sure actually worked then really.

Given the time that is now, and everything that has happened with Terrorism, I don't think that what was tried then works anymore at all. I don't know how I am supposed to like a guy that blows up kids, threatens to kill picard, and generally is just a jerk. Then there is Crusher being all supportive after a tiny bit of chatting.

crusher ends up holding the idiot ball, since why didn't picard beam down more medical people? why didn't crusher remember them? Why did she not follow procedure and leave? why didn't she just have picard beam down some medical supplies rather than sending worf off to get them?

Why? Because without Crusher being royally stupid, we wouldn't have a plot. Picard even decides not to beam the doctor up because she might get angry. Really.

I don't think much of the terrorist leader, and even trying to ignore what has happened in real life in the meantime since the episode, I still really don't think that it works trying to make us like or feel for the separatist/terrorist leader. Crusher falls under his spell way too fast, and he doesn't make any good arguments of any kind.

I would say that Gene or the writers staff failed to take some very important lessons from Star Wars A New Hope. Stuff like making your Rebel Characters (since the Rebellion is basically a bunch of terrorists really) be likable and actually heroes. We see Tarkin ordering a peaceful planet be blown up. We see Tarkin order that girl to be executed. We see Tarkin being totally cool with that girl getting tortured or something. And then there is how Tarkin wants to rule through fear.

The Empire is clearly the Bad Guys here and that effort is shown. The Rebels might not exactly be the good guys really, but the story tries to make the battle lines clear about what each side really sees as the most important. Freedom for the Rebels; Tyranny for the Empire.

As for this Star Trek Episode, it doesn't say anything about anything, especially new. then, it fails to make any kind of statement that matters. You could lose the episode and missed nothing at all. That is just poor already. Then the subject of terrorism these days is a very touching subject.

The next episode is the return of Q

So? Do fellow playgrounders agree? Disagree? Comments of your own? Get some discussing going on

Trackers)
I HATE the Borg and wish they were never thought up: 1 (their first episode)
Picard's Gifts: 1
Prime Directive Hell: 1
Q Messes with the Crew, For Laughs: 1
Doctor Who timey-wimey Destructo Enterprise Disco: 1
Klingon Rituals/Rites: 1
Poker Playing: 2
Gene Roddenberry ruins Star Trek: 4 ()
Redshirts Actually wearing a Redshirt Deaths: 1
Hidden Gems: 6
Funny Guest Star Appearances: 6 ()
Rank of Miles: Ensign, Two Gold Pips
Prime Directives: 3
Patrick Stewart Speech: 4 (Did I miss an earlier one? I don't think so)
Riker "Patrick Stewart Speech": 1
Riker Romances Something/Someone: 3
Pithy Aesops: 1
Klingon Proverbs/Beliefs/Sentiments: 1) Drink not with thine enemy; A) Several in the Episode, "Heart of Glory"; Klingons know how to deal with spies
Worfed (Worf loses to establish danger): 2
Holodeck Mishaps/Breakings/Issues: 1
Actually Alien Aliens: 1
Lore's Appearances: 1
*Data's Emotions: 3
*Troi Troubles: 1
*Money Matters: 1
Polarize the Phase Inverters: 1

[DigoDragon]

I had to go to Memory Alpha because I really don't remember this episode. ...and after looking it up, I kind of still don't. >.>

[Velaryon]

This was a pretty bland, forgettable episode. I didn't realize the bit about the cultural context when it was released (I was very young at the time and tend to misremember that particular event as happening earlier than it actually did). I don't remember the part about Crusher being kinda flirty with the baddie... is she actually attracted or is she trying to play him for sympathy?

[Gnoman]

This one always felt really weird to me because the rebel leader is so willing to court open war with the Federation. He kidnaps Starfleet officers on purpose, and tries to blow up the Enterprise as publicity stunt. He's so confident that these open acts of war would result in a big fat nothing from the Federation.

[factotum]

He's so confident that these open acts of war would result in a big fat nothing from the Federation.

To be fair, he really wouldn't have any reason to believe otherwise. The Federation are unequivocally the good guys in this time period--it'll be a little while yet before potential threats would force them into a more explicitly militaristic and reactive stance. Heck, in DS9 the traitor whose name I forget just can't believe that Sisko, a Starfleet captain, would deliberately poison Maquis planets just to capture him, so this attitude is still widespread years later.

[Gnoman]

Sure, they're the good guys, but that doesn't mean they won't respond to the destruction of their flagship with all hands (the intended result). Even ignoring the Federation currently being at war (which isn't established until the next season), the Enterprise has already been in or narrowly avoided military confrontations at this point.

"We will not interfere in your internal matter" is a logical stance. Betting everything on "we won't respond even if attacked" doesn't. Especially when you rant about Federation hypocrisy. There's plenty of ways they could have done the plot a lot better - what they eventually did with Ensign Ro would be a good stance.