OOTS #505 - The Discussion Thread

[cavalier973]

Awesome plot and comedy all in one!

Is it just me or are Varsuvius the Elf and Durkon the Dwarf developing a kind of Gimli / Legolas relationship?

hmmm what if Varsuvius is a she after all....................

Even if V is a girl elf, V has a mate, and Durkon is severely disapproving of cheating on one's mate, even if there has been a separation.

[Doug Lampert]

I guess he cannot believe ANYONE is this stupid. To give Hinjo his due, I'd probably not consider the possibility either that even Elan would wait until the end of the conversation to mention that there is a battle going on (You got to wonder what is going on with V's elven hearing, since battles tend to be rather loud.)

I don't see what the big deal is on doing other stuff first. It was all conversation and talking is a free action so its not like they spent any time having the reconciliation PRIOR to the battle.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

And people were thinking Elan would become a serious and COMPETENT character.

But if he did, he wouldn't be Elan anymore. He'd just be this blond adventurer, with a lute.

Keep him just the way he is!

[PerpetualGM]

So I guess no one else is bothered by all of the people that Elan "killed" by being incompetent and not delivering his important message first?

[David Argall]

I don't see what the big deal is on doing other stuff first. It was all conversation and talking is a free action so its not like they spent any time having the reconciliation PRIOR to the battle.

Conversation is a free action, within limits. Harsh DMs put in a limit of 6-12 words, and all but the most generous would say Elan spent several rounds talking or listening.

Hmmm... if Daigo bites the dust, how will Kazumi explain to Hinjo the heir to house Kato? --quoted from teratorn--

Most, if not all, societies assume that marriage retroactively makes prior sex legitimate. It is not considered polite to notice how often the 1st child is "premature". Now if there was some big inheritance involved, there could be a fuss, but House Kato is effectively broke and so there is likely to be little result beyond some catty remarks from people who don't like her anyway.

BTW, anyone else notice that one guy is still holding his drink as he runs? Must be an alchoholic.

In cases like this, the hand tends to open, or to clutch. So he is doing nothing that odd in holding onto his drink. People in such cases have been known to be careful the drink doesn't spill.

[Furin_Mirado]

In an earlier comic Vaarsuvius wasted a round talking, so it's perfectly logical that Elan just wasted at least one round talking when he should have been giving the message. The earlier comic I refer to is the one where they fight the black dragon and Vaarsuvius ( in lizard form) casts Suggestion.

I have to wonder how these kinds of mistakes will affect Elan's ability to get into whatever heaven he's bound for. He might be fine since his actions are unintentional, although he could have put some more points into Intelligence when he leveled. Then again, you'd have to be smart enough to realize to do that.

[Hallavast]

I don't see what the big deal is on doing other stuff first. It was all conversation and talking is a free action so its not like they spent any time having the reconciliation PRIOR to the battle.

Ha ha. Very funny. But there is also a clause that states the speaking has to be a reasonable amount (like a few oaths). And it specifically says an entire conversation is not reasonable.

But I suppose Rich could make the joke later that Elan is too dumb to know how much speaking can fit into a free action.

But at any rate, I would be justified in throwing Elan overboard for this one. His incompetence reaches into gross negligence. If Jack McCoy gets wind of this there'll be hell to pay.

<hopes for Law and Order parody/cameo/refference in the near future>

[Caractacus]

2) Why do people keep making comments about this being a random encounter? It's clearly the big attack from Kabuto's unseen telepathic dude.

Yes, it almost certainly is.

But, on the other hand, I would think it hilarious if the bad guy attack starts now with teleporting ninja[add the 's' if you prefer it that way] or some such and they end up in the middle of everything.

Ninja1 "We bring you death"

Azurite 1 "Aaaaargh" *gurgle*

Ninja 1 "Hey! I never even touched you"

Sea Troll 1 "Gaaaargle!" "Raaaarg"

Ninja 1 "Oh..."

Ninja 2 "Get it off me! Get it off me!

Sea Troll 2 *Munch*

Azurite 2 "What on earth?"

Ninja 1 "Go figure. We booked this slot and what do we get? Bumped."

[Blaznak]

I think that its great Elan doesn't let a crisis get in the way of his friendship.

[dont_ask]

If scrying Haley hasn't worked, why doesn't V try to scry Belkar? Just something I was wondering.

[eof]

Am I the only one who notices somthing wrong with the whole

"Ive just developed a high level divination spell that can pinpoint any location or person just by a name, but alas it was useless because it couldn't help us find the guy who knew where this gate was."

Apart from you completely making up the specifics for the "Varsuuvis' Enhanced Scrying" spell? No. If, as the name implies, V's spell is a stronger version of Scying (or Greater Scrying), it can only be used to target a creature. This thing about pinpointing a location is something you just made up. Also, I think it would be quite in character for V to not improve a spell to also allow pinpointing of locations but rather just make a more "powerful" version of it. But we shall see. You might be right, but so far there is nothing (unless I am missing something obvious; kinda drowsy) that implies that the spell can also pinpoint locations.

From the Giant himself:

"And once I "zero out" my late comic balance, any additional comics beyond three that I do in any given week will go into a hypothetical buffer to guard against future absences. Or at least, that's the plan. We'll see how it plays out in reality."

I hope he forgets that tidbit...

Actually, I think this strip made the Giant "zero out." Congrats to that. Me, I'm way happy as long as there are some comics each week!

Durkon is a grim pragmatist who understands that the Mission comes first, no matter who gets left behind during the battle. Take the Hill, we'll mourn the dead later.

Vaarsuvius, meanwhile, is calculating and rational, and knows that to maximize Mission success, you need to get every factor going for you, no matter how difficult it may be to do so.

Well, in this case, I'd agree with V. Finding a gate that is hidden with the most cunning illusions (and probably anti-detection spells as well) on their own seems less likely to work than getting their entire team together again, which incidentally would also unveil the location of the gate.

Also, for all his "time to change plans!" bluster, I don't see Durkon (so far at least) getting on his knees and praying to Thor for a gate detection spell, or divine guidance in general. So Durkon does not really have an alternative plan to suggest... or at least not one that he can pull off himself. Antagonizing V is probably not the best way to get any alternative plan, which requires V's assistance, off the ground. At the moment, Durkon seems a bit like some PHB (ref: Dilbert); wanting things done "his way" but not really knowing what his way will entail, except in the broadest of strokes.

[factotum]

So Durkon does not really have an alternative plan to suggest... or at least not one that he can pull off himself. Antagonizing V is probably not the best way to get any alternative plan, which requires V's assistance, off the ground.

Durkon is low on Charisma and likely doesn't have an especially high Intelligence, either--making plans and interacting with people are not going to be his strong suits! He knows the only member of the Order on the ship who is CAPABLE of putting together some sort of plan is V, which is why he's trying to get him to come up with something, but the low Charisma is hampering his efforts.

[Sequinox]

Wow... "Oh, and hinjo told me to tell you that sea trolls were attacking the wedding reception."

Hahahahahahahahahahaha I love

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

hum....

Why would V's spells be gone? I assume she prepared some the night before she started learning her new spell. Since she likely did not cast a fireball during her period of lack of sleep, why would the spells be gone?

[shaddy_24]

hum....

Why would V's spells be gone? I assume she prepared some the night before she started learning her new spell. Since she likely did not cast a fireball during her period of lack of sleep, why would the spells be gone?

That would assume that V prepared a fireball since they left AC. Which he/she has no reason to, since the battle is over and they have nothing to fear. So V could very well have no spells at all prepared right now.

[5tephen]

Now THAT was brilliant.

Classic Elan.

[Hann]

Is it difficult to see sea trolls?

No.

See? Trolls!

[Doug Lampert]

That would assume that V prepared a fireball since they left AC. Which he/she has no reason to, since the battle is over and they have nothing to fear. So V could very well have no spells at all prepared right now.

That's insane. V LIVES for arcane power. You're suggesting that hir hasn't prepared hirs standard spell loadout even ONCE in almost four MONTHS!?

For that matter preparing ANY spell takes as much time as preparing a full quarter of your maximum loadout (there's a minimum preparation time at 15 minutes). As a speciallist V has about 8 slots that can't be used for anything but evocation spells. I don't care how obsesed with other stuff, or how delusional that they have nothing to fear V is, V has presumably prepared divination spells many times since the battle, by now those 8 speciallist slots are filled, and since they can't be used for divinations those slots are filled with their usual mass of blast spells.

That's quite aside from the manifest and total stupidity of assuming they have nothing to fear since the battle is over. V's done the lecture that you should always expect exactly one random encounter on any journey. And the present situation also shows clearly that expecting no combat would have been flawed thinking.

[Santiago]

been coming thick and fast recently?

[Irbis]

For that matter preparing ANY spell takes as much time as preparing a full quarter of your maximum loadout (there's a minimum preparation time at 15 minutes). As a speciallist V has about 8 slots that can't be used for anything but evocation spells. I don't care how obsesed with other stuff, or how delusional that they have nothing to fear V is, V has presumably prepared divination spells many times since the battle, by now those 8 speciallist slots are filled, and since they can't be used for divinations those slots are filled with their usual mass of blast spells.

First - she might have cut time to prepare only a quarter of her spells, all being divination, or or her newest invention, to try it and prepare the rest should it fail.

Second - casting fireball or burning hands on a ship full of commoners is not the brightest [ahem] idea.
Hell, casting fireball on a ship is just a stupid way to not live long.

And third - something has to bring down the troll's HP before spells can finally kill it, and I don't see these self-stabbing soldiers doing it. Even if V has some evocation spells, she might have to waste most of them to kill first group of trolls. She doesn't have access to most of the acid spells [barred conjuration] so she might have one or two fire troll-killing spells prepared at all. In that case, she would be useless as soon as she uses them, because other damage won't affect their regeneration.

[eof]

Durkon is low on Charisma and likely doesn't have an especially high Intelligence, either--making plans and interacting with people are not going to be his strong suits! He knows the only member of the Order on the ship who is CAPABLE of putting together some sort of plan is V, which is why he's trying to get him to come up with something, but the low Charisma is hampering his efforts.

Yes, that is kind of my point---but, he is high on WIS. And V is coming up with something. Granted, it did not work as V had hoped, but just because the tactic failed (the spell did not work) does not invalidate the strategy (finding Haley and Roy, and thereby learning of the gate's location).

The Order has one primary goal---find the gate and save the world---and one secondary---getting Roy and Haley back. V has a strategy to accomplish both. Durkon has nothing, except for complaining and whining that V's strategy does not seem to get them anywhere, or at least we haven't seen Durkon suggest anything so far. It's very easy to stand and criticize, especially when you aren't yourself expected to contribute, or even can't be expected to contribute. If you've never been in V's situation yourself, trust me when I say that Durkon is not helping, and I think it is more up to WIS than INT or CHA to realize that.

I also agree that V's intellect is the Order's best shot at accomplishing their goals. I think Durkon knows this as well. And seriously, how often do we see V's emotions get the best of his logic? Ever? Durkon is antsy because the Order is not advancing towards their goals at a pace that would suit him, and takes it out on V, who is the only character that can advance them at all. As the team's cleric, Durkon should be in the best of positions to realize that his actions right now hamper the Order's goals, both primary and secondary, rather than aid them.

[mockingbyrd7]

Did anybody else see strip 207 flash before their eyes when Durkon and V were arguing, getting angrier and angrier?

I sure did. I even remembered "With the death of Kraagor heavy on their hearts...", but I inserted Roy in there instead. It sure looked a lot like that scene at the beginning of 207. It was pretty scary. Not necessarily scary bad, just scary. This was an awesome strip by the way, great punchline, etc. etc.

[Twilight Jack]

You know, I now have to wonder why the OOTS is still with the AC fleet? They all think finding the gate is important, and know that Hinjo is oath bound not to interfere with it, and both Durkon and V want to go find it (Elan wants to be a bodyguard for the time being I guess, but I don't know where that falls in his priorities list). The best way to go about that is either to get back to AC regardless of the army and look for the rest of the order, or go get to the Western Continent and look for rumors -- but staying with a fleet lead by a man who is bound not to help the gate and won't return to AC seems like exactly the wrong thing to be doing. Are both Durkon and V so at odds with each other's strategy that they are willing to be totally paralyzed?

The oath of the Sapphire Guard prohibits any interference with the other gates, except in cases of a clear and present danger to all the gates. Shojo needed the Order of the Stick to check on the other gates and report to him, in hopes that by "happening upon" evidence of such a threat, he could propel the Sapphire Guard into action without having to reveal that he'd violated their oath.

Xykon's attack on Azure City definitely qualifies as evidence of imminent danger to all gates. The paladins of the Guard are now free to intervene until such time as Xykon and Redcloak are defeated, at which point their oath of non-interference returns to effect.

[Twilight Jack]

First - she might have cut time to prepare only a quarter of her spells, all being divination, or or her newest invention, to try it and prepare the rest should it fail.

Second - casting fireball or burning hands on a ship full of commoners is not the brightest [ahem] idea.
Hell, casting fireball on a ship is just a stupid way to not live long.

And third - something has to bring down the troll's HP before spells can finally kill it, and I don't see these self-stabbing soldiers doing it. Even if V has some evocation spells, she might have to waste most of them to kill first group of trolls. She doesn't have access to most of the acid spells [barred conjuration] so she might have one or two fire troll-killing spells prepared at all. In that case, she would be useless as soon as she uses them, because other damage won't affect their regeneration.

Fireball and burning hands may be unwise given their surroundings, but a good scorching ray is probably the best troll-killin' weapon around. We know that V can cast it, and there aren't too terribly many Evocations worth a damn for the second level slot. Dollars to donuts, V has at least one scorching ray, if ve's got any spells prepared at all in ver tranceless state.

[*Templar*]

If scrying Haley hasn't worked, why doesn't V try to scry Belkar? Just something I was wondering.

A number of reasons, I think.

1. It's questionable, but since Haley is far more responsible and reliable than Belkar, the chances are much better that Haley is staying on-task and holding on to Roy's body, whereas for all V knows Belkar might have wandered off on his own somewhere in search of something to kill. Locating two of the three missing members of the Order is more important than locating one, especially when the two are your leadership.

2. V plain doesn't like Belkar but is apparently rather fond of Haley.

3. It wouldn't make any difference, because Xykon's Cloister spell is blocking V's scrying. It's not that Haley is using a false name, it's not that she's on another plane, or anything like that. Cloister will simply prevent scrying anybody in Azure City right now.

[Doug Lampert]

First - she might have cut time to prepare only a quarter of her spells, all being divination, or or her newest invention, to try it and prepare the rest should it fail.

Second - casting fireball or burning hands on a ship full of commoners is not the brightest [ahem] idea.
Hell, casting fireball on a ship is just a stupid way to not live long.

And third - something has to bring down the troll's HP before spells can finally kill it, and I don't see these self-stabbing soldiers doing it. Even if V has some evocation spells, she might have to waste most of them to kill first group of trolls. She doesn't have access to most of the acid spells [barred conjuration] so she might have one or two fire troll-killing spells prepared at all. In that case, she would be useless as soon as she uses them, because other damage won't affect their regeneration.

I'm assuming hir only prepared a quarter of hirs slots at a time. SO WHAT.

Day 1, first 15 minutes: Get up in the morning and prepare 1 sending to coordinate rendevous. Whoops, I get to prepare a quarter of my spells and I don't expect ANY trouble at all with the sending but I do expect possible trouble with the rendevous, so I also prepare a few evocations and utility spells leaving the rest empty till I know more.

Day 1, second 15 minutes: Whoops, sending didn't work. Let's try Scrying, that means I need to prepare Scry, may as well fill a few other slots while I'm at it.

Day 1, half hour to 1.5 hours: Cast Scrying, that doesn't work.

Day 1, 1.5 to 1.75 hours: Prepare my THIRD set of slots, get another Scrying for Belkar.

Day 1, 1.75 to 2.75 hours: Can't get Belkar either.

Day 1, 2.75 to 3 hours: Prepare another Sending just in case it works this time. V has now prepared EVERY spell V can. Hirs also cast 4+ any others hir thought might be useful. But that's OK, because V will try AGAIN tomorrow, and that means preparing more spells.

Since less than a quarter of V's slots were empty by the end of day 1 V has been fully prepared EVERY day since.

As to low level Azurites not being able to soften the targets up for V's spells, Lien and Hinjo are both on deck, and Durkon and Elan are both of more than adequate ability to beat the CRAP out of trolls and FIRE ISN'T EVEN NEEDED since the trolls don't regenerate out of water. As for fireballs not being a good idea on a ship that's fine, but lots of other evocations will work fine.

[dont_ask]

A number of reasons, I think.

1. It's questionable, but since Haley is far more responsible and reliable than Belkar, the chances are much better that Haley is staying on-task and holding on to Roy's body, whereas for all V knows Belkar might have wandered off on his own somewhere in search of something to kill. Locating two of the three missing members of the Order is more important than locating one, especially when the two are your leadership.

2. V plain doesn't like Belkar but is apparently rather fond of Haley.

3. It wouldn't make any difference, because Xykon's Cloister spell is blocking V's scrying. It's not that Haley is using a false name, it's not that she's on another plane, or anything like that. Cloister will simply prevent scrying anybody in Azure City right now.

Any information is better than no information. As V said, either Haley is dead, or something is blocking the scrying. That's more than they would know than if V never scryed Haley. If V scryed Belkar and saw he was way outside of Azure City, then V knows that Belkar and Haley got separated. If Belkar is in Azure City, then V knows that, like Haley, Belkar is either dead or something is blocking the scrying. As for V not liking Belkar, V should know that scrying Belkar will increase V's chance of finding Haley, of whom he is rather fond.

[David Argall]

The oath of the Sapphire Guard prohibits any interference with the other gates, except in cases of a clear and present danger to all the gates.

Xykon's attack on Azure City definitely qualifies as evidence of imminent danger to all gates. The paladins of the Guard are now free to intervene until such time as Xykon and Redcloak are defeated, at which point their oath of non-interference returns to effect.

The lich is currently staying in Azure City, making him no immediate threat to the other gates, so no, they are not free to wander away. Rather, they have to concentrate on Azure City, where they know there is a threat. After all, the lich may be trying to build his own gate.

[*Templar*]

Any information is better than no information. As V said, either Haley is dead, or something is blocking the scrying. That's more than they would know than if V never scryed Haley. If V scryed Belkar and saw he was way outside of Azure City, then V knows that Belkar and Haley got separated. If Belkar is in Azure City, then V knows that, like Haley, Belkar is either dead or something is blocking the scrying. As for V not liking Belkar, V should know that scrying Belkar will increase V's chance of finding Haley, of whom he is rather fond.

It may be that V simply doesn't give a hoot where Belkar is, given his aforementioned dislike for him and the halfling's aforementioned manifold untrustworthiness. Belkar's unreliability also makes it questionable whether locating him would, in fact, make it any easier to find Haley.

However, we don't actually know that V hasn't attempted to scry for Belkar at some point also, unless I'm forgetting something. The comic shows us his first attempt at using his new spell, and he chose (unsurprisingly) to look for Haley. If all previous attempts to scry either of them had yielded the same result, though, V would have no good reason to believe that trying his spell on Belkar would work any better, even should he be inclined to give it another shot. Elan interrupted before he could, anyway.

[David Argall]

Presumably V & Durkon have been trying to contact Haley on a daily basis for over 100 days now. It would be amazing if they have not tried Belkar a time or two just for variety.

Spoiler

Show

Now Durkon may not have a spell that contacts the dead without the body. So it is possible Elan suggests now that V try to contact Roy. After telling him how silly his idea is, V & Durkon eventually try it just to shut Elan up, and it works. They see Roy and Eugene watching them. After some silliness, communication is established. They then persuade Eugene and Roy to look for Haley and the scene switches to the city for the past 100 days.