Fenris Master Plan

[Ganbatte]

Now that I think of it, since V as an elf had to spend 100 years to cast a lvl.1 spell (meaning this sort of stuff varies depending on race) there's no reason why cobolds shouldn't be able to do the same in a way appropriate to their lifespan.

[JonahFalcon]

Read On the Origin of PCs for Haley and V discussing this very subject.

[pearl jam]

Now that I think of it, since V as an elf had to spend 100 years to cast a lvl.1 spell (meaning this sort of stuff varies depending on race) there's no reason why cobolds shouldn't be able to do the same in a way appropriate to their lifespan.

Is there any evidence to support this assertion?

There could easily be a baseline amount of time which can be increased as a penalty to balance against a buff in another area but can't be decreased.

Alternatively, maybe they can master spells in less time than elves or even humans, but even if no hard cap exits, practically there are limits to how fast one can acquire xp to level up, meaning that perhaps they aren't able to level up fast enough in comparison to other races to compensate for the difference in life span.

[brian 333]

Even as far back as 1st ed AD&D goblin communities had members of higher levels. They were, as communities, roughly equivalent to human communities of comparable size.

[masamune1]

Now that I think of it, since V as an elf had to spend 100 years to cast a lvl.1 spell (meaning this sort of stuff varies depending on race) there's no reason why cobolds shouldn't be able to do the same in a way appropriate to their lifespan.

It could just mean that V was / is a terrible Wizard.

[Squire Doodad]

It could just mean that V was / is a terrible Wizard.

Also since it appears to be 5 human years to one elf year, that means V didn't master magic until they hit ~20.
So, yeah, shoddy mage.

[Kornaki]

Also since it appears to be 5 human years to one elf year, that means V didn't master magic until they hit ~20.
So, yeah, shoddy mage.

Julia is what, 16? And clearly at least a level 5 or so wizard, given the description of her research project (I mean, probably actually level 9+, but I'm willing to give a couple levels away)

[Fyraltari]

Julia is what, 16?

Seventeen..

And clearly at least a level 5 or so wizard, given the description of her research project (I mean, probably actually level 9+, but I'm willing to give a couple levels away)

She says she's lowered the spell level below Sending, are there rules on what level would she need to have to do research that?

[Squire Doodad]

She says she's lowered the spell level below Sending, are there rules on what level would she need to have to do research that?

You could make an argument that she's working with higher-level teachers, so she could be below the level needed to cast Sending easily.
Not to mention Sending is a very well known spell in this world, so it's probably super easy to get schematics on how its cast and bypass any requirement that would involve needing to know how to use it before researching a variant.

[Dr.Zero]

Seventeen..

She says she's lowered the spell level below Sending, are there rules on what level would she need to have to do research that?

No.

There is like 1/4 of a page on a rulebook counting more than 300 pages, and it sums up to "The DM decides everything, from the level of the spell to the fact that the spell can, indeed, exist. But if the spell can be created, the wizard must spend a number level weeks in a library and pay level*1000gp and suceed a Spellcraft check at 10+level".

So, basically, a wizard can create whateve spell the GM allows, and everything else is based on the level that the GM assigns to that spell.

[Kornaki]

I realized the class and level thread would probably have more opinions on this and they did

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

She's a level 3 wizard in this comic (she's also probably 16 at that time). So maybe not level 5 by current time in the comic, but certainly far outperforming V's apprenticeship.

[KorvinStarmast]

Even as far back as 1st ed AD&D goblin communities had members of higher levels. They were, as communities, roughly equivalent to human communities of comparable size.

Which gives the lie to the goblins always having it rough. Remember that Haley's dad is a 1e thief. OoTS world goes as far back as that, at least, if not further back.

[brian 333]

To be fair, they were, back then, irredeemably evil beings created for the sole purpose of providing low level PCs the opportunity to gain XP by killing them.

And given that in 1e monsters had a set number of XP and adventurers had to double their XP to gain a level, you had to kill a lot of goblins to get to third level.

[KorvinStarmast]

To be fair, they were, back then, irredeemably evil beings created for the sole purpose of providing low level PCs the opportunity to gain XP by killing them.

In your opinion.

And given that in 1e monsters had a set number of XP and adventurers had to double their XP to gain a level, you had to kill a lot of goblins to get to third level.

We got 1 XP for each GP we liberated. You didn't have to be a murder hobo to get ahead, but there was certainly plenty of bloodshed.

[Lemarc]

To be fair, they were, back then, irredeemably evil beings created for the sole purpose of providing low level PCs the opportunity to gain XP by killing them.

And given that in 1e monsters had a set number of XP and adventurers had to double their XP to gain a level, you had to kill a lot of goblins to get to third level.

Around 300 goblins per PC, depending on class - each goblin being a genuine 1-on-1 threat for a 1st level PC. No, in AD&D you kill folks to get their money, money is where the XP is at.

[brian 333]

Around 300 goblins per PC, depending on class - each goblin being a genuine 1-on-1 threat for a 1st level PC. No, in AD&D you kill folks to get their money, money is where the XP is at.

Ah, good times.

The thing about treasure was that it always ended up being about half the XP. I never got hoards of treasure in portable form, and by the time we'd get back to the boss monster's lair for a second helping the surviving minions had stashed it somewhere else.

Like the time we took down an otyugh only to realize there was about 16,000 gp worth of copper and tarnished silver coins in the muck. Do you know how long it takes to clean and stack half a million coins? Me neither. We took the magic items, some gems, and a few sacks of coins and moved on.

[Squire Doodad]

Ah, good times.

The thing about treasure was that it always ended up being about half the XP. I never got hoards of treasure in portable form, and by the time we'd get back to the boss monster's lair for a second helping the surviving minions had stashed it somewhere else.

Like the time we took down an otyugh only to realize there was about 16,000 gp worth of copper and tarnished silver coins in the muck. Do you know how long it takes to clean and stack half a million coins? Me neither. We took the magic items, some gems, and a few sacks of coins and moved on.

So were you supposed to calm down the otyugh so you could convince it to clean the muck (apparently they can speak Common), or was it something about leading it towards the coins to clean them all?

[brian 333]

So were you supposed to calm down the otyugh so you could convince it to clean the muck (apparently they can speak Common), or was it something about leading it towards the coins to clean them all?

Actually. We never even thought of that. Our elf was trying to find a way around this huge cesspool when the otyugh body-slammed him. After sneak-attacking our elf we didn't consider talking to it to be a viable option.

But your option would have been better than mine: fireballs are easily evaded when you live submerged in muck.

[Squire Doodad]

Actually. We never even thought of that. Our elf was trying to find a way around this huge cesspool when the otyugh body-slammed him. After sneak-attacking our elf we didn't consider talking to it to be a viable option.

But your option would have been better than mine: fireballs are easily evaded when you live submerged in muck.

Sounds like "combat encounter with alternative negotiation path" sort of a thing. If I had to guess, either the coins were just a lucky roll, or the players were meant to "find" the coins while fighting it, at which point they would be expected to react to that new information and weigh profit of combat vs profit of talking it down/tricking it and getting the coins as a bonus.

[Lemarc]

Ah, good times.

The thing about treasure was that it always ended up being about half the XP. I never got hoards of treasure in portable form, and by the time we'd get back to the boss monster's lair for a second helping the surviving minions had stashed it somewhere else.

Like the time we took down an otyugh only to realize there was about 16,000 gp worth of copper and tarnished silver coins in the muck. Do you know how long it takes to clean and stack half a million coins? Me neither. We took the magic items, some gems, and a few sacks of coins and moved on.

Copper and silver coins start to look like dirt before long even when they aren't buried in sewage. Still, that's technically 15x the XP you got from killing the otyugh had you been able to carry it. I've always considered monster XP as not worth pursuing, anything that gives a meaningful amount of XP for your level typically being too nasty to mess with. I'm having trouble imagining what a game in which fully half your XP comes from monsters looks like, you must have been tipping the blood out of your boots every evening.

[Squire Doodad]

Copper and silver coins start to look like dirt before long even when they aren't buried in sewage. Still, that's technically 15x the XP you got from killing the otyugh had you been able to carry it. I've always considered monster XP as not worth pursuing, anything that gives a meaningful amount of XP for your level typically being too nasty to mess with. I'm having trouble imagining what a game in which fully half your XP comes from monsters looks like, you must have been tipping the blood out of your boots every evening.

Monster Hunter be like:

[KorvinStarmast]

In our experience, otyugh's were mostly hungry, and not big on parley. Perhaps our DM's could not think of much to say for one.

[Squire Doodad]

In our experience, otyugh's were mostly hungry, and not big on parley. Perhaps our DM's could not think of much to say for one.

Circumstance is probably the otyugh muttering to itself during some sort of corruption or blight. Maybe it's the Great Dirt Blight?

"Hungry. Mud was good in days past. Mud is less good now. Mud is eaten, eaten so much, but Mud is not enough. Is flesh better than Mud? Is plant better than Mud? Why is Mud less good now? Less good Mud must be fixed, Mud must be made good or all will die. Still hungry."

(The idea is "coherent but animalistic; limited vocabulary and no pronouns of any sort; "Mud" is considered proper noun because of its importance)

[brian 333]

Copper and silver coins start to look like dirt before long even when they aren't buried in sewage. Still, that's technically 15x the XP you got from killing the otyugh had you been able to carry it. I've always considered monster XP as not worth pursuing, anything that gives a meaningful amount of XP for your level typically being too nasty to mess with. I'm having trouble imagining what a game in which fully half your XP comes from monsters looks like, you must have been tipping the blood out of your boots every evening.

Partly correct. We came to D&D from strategic and tactical simulation wargaming, so after you've done the Kursk Offensive a few times a few tens of thousands of monsters are just an average day at the office.

(That last bit was sarcasm, for those who missed it.)

We tended to farm up. I later learned that it was common for players to fight multiples of low XP foes but, approaching D&D as a small unit tactical sim, we were always trying to get to and defeat the biggest, baddest thing we could find. I can't count the numbers of minions of various kinds that we bypassed somehow because they presented no challenge and fighting them would have eaten up game time and character resources.

Altruistic bunch, weren't we?

[Grand Arbiter]

Pretty damn well if they didn't clump together too much.

Assuming the fight is in 3.5 rules, which it probably is since the singular wizard is epic, the 100 are screwed unless they win initiative and the epic caster hasn’t cast any day-length defensive spells/had no magic items.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability is a nope-button to all spells 3rd level and lower, which is the range of spells available to the group. The 5th level mages cannot dispel it using Dispel Magic because it’d be a 1d20+5 caster level check against DC >31 (11+caster level, over 20 for epic level caster), which makes it numerically impossible. The epic caster would get 20+ rounds to act unhindered for a single spell slot.

I think it’d be difficult for an epic level mage to *not* kill 100 entities with 40-50 HP or less (5th level wizard has 5d4 + 5 x Constitution modifier HP) in that timeframe.

[Lemarc]

Assuming the fight is in 3.5 rules, which it probably is since the singular wizard is epic, the 100 are screwed unless they win initiative and the epic caster hasnÂ’t cast any day-length defensive spells/had no magic items.

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability is a nope-button to all spells 3rd level and lower, which is the range of spells available to the group. The 5th level mages cannot dispel it using Dispel Magic because itÂ’d be a 1d20+5 caster level check against DC >31 (11+caster level, over 20 for epic level caster), which makes it numerically impossible. The epic caster would get 20+ rounds to act unhindered for a single spell slot.

I think itÂ’d be difficult for an epic level mage to *not* kill 100 entities with 40-50 HP or less (5th level wizard has 5d4 + 5 x Constitution modifier HP) in that timeframe.

I would have thought, at first glance, that a bit under half of the magehorde could be expected to win initiative on average, and that this would be enough for them to have a good chance of forcing a failed concentration check (assuming no prep time for the epic caster). Am I wrong?

[Grand Arbiter]

I would have thought, at first glance, that a bit under half of the magehorde could be expected to win initiative on average

Assuming equal base stats this would be true, but it depends on how many feats/items/spells the epic caster has that give initiative bonuses.

3.5 has a crapload of material. \_(“)_/

and that this would be enough for them to have a good chance of forcing a failed concentration check (assuming no prep time for the epic caster). Am I wrong?

I believe 3.5 only requires concentration checks if the caster is damaged when the spell is cast, unless the spell’s duration is concentration. Unless some of the 100 are in range for an attack of opportunity, or DM rules going at the same time requires a check, I don’t think they can force a conc. check.

[Lemarc]

I believe 3.5 only requires concentration checks if the caster is damaged when the spell is cast, unless the spell’s duration is concentration. Unless some of the 100 are in range for an attack of opportunity, or DM rules going at the same time requires a check, I don’t think they can force a conc. check.

You can ready a spell on your initiative, say magic missile, set to go off when the enemy begins casting to force a concentration check.

[Grand Arbiter]

You can ready a spell on your initiative, say magic missile, set to go off when the enemy begins casting to force a concentration check.

Forgot about readied actions. Would be a stand-off to see who gets their spells off.


We should probably drop this to avoid derailing the thread too much. I think from here it would require being detailed on the resources both sides have.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think these lines of thought are over anthropomorphizing Fenris.

I say "over" because he's a anthropomorphization in the first place. An essential part of his nature is not human and he doesn't have the free will to chose to between good and evil and the doesn't have the self control for enlightened self-interest or master plans.

In my personal take: he has a much more severe forum of Hell's problem, all souls and little dedication or worship for world after world. The reason he can be like this is the northern gods know the world needs monsters and that makes Fenris necessary (or at least useful) and so the northern gods feed some of their evil souls to him.

For those interested in nitpicky details, I'm not sure if we're counting "Please don't let the monster see me" as worship. I'm also uncertain about dedication and what the phrase "their god" (panel 8) means in a polytheistic religion, but I'm guessing the jerk-god people wish didn't exist gets little to nothing.