I hate the elemental tropes in D&D.

[AstralFire]

One of my biggest consistent gripes with the default world flavor is this.

[Air] subtype? It's probably enlightened, lofty and noble.
[Water] subtype? Generally (though not always) kind, gentle and gracious.
[Earth] subtype? Often hardworking, practical, simple.
[Fire]? EGADS IT'S EVIL (and probably LE) AND IT LIKES THINGS MADE OUT OF BRASS HELP US SAVE US FROM THE EVIL FLAMING DWARF THING THAT LIKES BRASS

EDIT: I SURRENDER THE ORIGINAL POST. Read rest of thread.
Don't hurt me, I'm young and stupid.

[AtomicKitKat]

Fire is passion.

Where Air dreams, and Earth is, Water adapts, but Fire just barrels on ahead.

[AstralFire]

Funny, when I stare into a fire, I see my dreams dancing about the embers. Fire's rather fragile, you know - doesn't take much to snuff one out, but they're oh-so-pretty.

[Skjaldbakka]

That isn't the default flavor. Were did you get that idea from?

[AstralFire]

That isn't the default flavor. Were did you get that idea from?

Compare the associated Giants, the associated Djinn, and the associated random critterlings. Fire Giants are Evil, Efreeti are Evil, Azar are Evil. Cloud Giants are Good, Djinn are Good, etc.

[Dhavaer]

Azer aren't evil. They're Lawful Neutral.

[Duke Malagigi]

Azar are Lawful Neutral not Lawful Evil.

[Skjaldbakka]

There are also good aligned fire subtype creatures. Gold Dragons for example.

EDit- Evil Efreeti are also not a trope of D&D.

[The_Snark]

On the other hand, marids and dao (water and earth genies, respectively) are neutral evil and chaotic neutral.

I've always seen air and fire as being wilder and faster, and water and earth as being slower but harder to change. Morality doesn't really come into it; there'll be evil and good fire creatures, just like there'll be evil and good air creatures.

(Also, Azers are neutral... and belkers are evil air elementals... and cloud giants actually alternate between good and evil.)

Efreeti and genies are kind of annoying, though. I think they made efreeti lawful just to reflect the wish-bargains, but I'm baffled as to why djinni are good. I'd put them both as ranging from lawful evil to chaotic neutral, myself; that way you never know what you're dealing with.

[AstralFire]

Azer aren't evil. They're Lawful Neutral.

What the. I'm blaming the whiskey which I haven't drank since I turned 21 when I barely got tipsey. I could have sworn they were. Even so, the Elemental Plane of Fire is pretty dominated by the LE Aligned City of Brass.

[Lemur]

Mephits are all neutral, regardless of subtype. There's also Magmin, fire types who are chaotic neutral, Will o' the Wisps, air types who are chaotic evil, and of course xorn, earth types who are OMG I ARE MESSED UP ARMS BLOB BLARRR!

In short, skimming through the monster manual does not constitute the flavor given to the elements in the game.

[Chronos]

Add Will-o'-wisps to the Air category. They're Chaotic Evil, and I've never heard one accused of being enlightened. Really, the only common thread I see in the Air subtype is high Dexterity scores.

The elementals themselves, meanwhile, are almost all neutral.

[kpenguin]

Let's see, d20srd.org's monster filter comes out with...

Monsters with (air) subtype:
Air Elemental (Neutral)
Arrowhawk (Neutral)
Belker (Neutral Evil)
Djinn (Chaotic Good)
Cloud Giant (Neutral Good or Neutral Evil)
Green Dragon (Lawful Evil)
Invisible Stalker (Neutral)
Air, Dust, and Ice Mephits (Neutral)
Will-'O-Wisp (Chaotic Evil)

Monsters with (earth) subtype:
Blue Dragon (Lawful Evil)
Copper Dragon (Chaotic Good)
Earth Elemental (Neutral)
Gargoyle (Chaotic Evil)
Stone Giant (Neutral)
Earth and Salt Mephits (Neutral)
Thoqqua (Neutral)
Xorn (Neutral)

Monsters with (fire) subtype:
Azer (Lawful Neutral)
Brass Dragon (Chaotic Good)
Fire Elemental (Neutral)
Efreeti (Lawful Evil)
Fire Giant (Lawful Evil)
Gold Dragon (Lawful Good)
Hell Hound (Lawful Evil)
Magmin (Chaotic Neutral)
Fire, Magma, and Steam Mephits (Neutral)
Pyrohydra (Neutral)
Rast (Neutral)
Red Dragon (Chaotic Evil)
Salamander (Neutral Evil)
Thoqqua (Neutral)

Monsters with (Water) subtype:
Black Dragon (Chaotic Evil)
Bronze Dragon (Lawful Good)
Ooze and Water Mephits (Neutral)
Tojanida (Neutral)
Triton (Neutral Good)
Water Elemental (Neutral)

Now, what subtle nuances of elemental alignment can we glean from this?

[AstralFire]

I guess I just wish there were more default flavor things in standard D&D that were [Fire] and Good aligned. Just like how I wish there was less of this "Chaotic isn't as good as real (lawful) good" thinking that occasionally flutters about.

EDIT: I SURRENDER I SURRENDER I SURRENDER my original post

[JaxGaret]

It's funny, I'm reading a series currently where Fire is the "Evil" element, due to its obsession with destruction, Earth is the "Good" element, Water is the "Chaotic" element, and as I've only read the first book, I haven't seen any Air Wizards, so I can't say anything about them.

But, as others have stated, D&D has no such delineation - there are plenty of Good and Evil, Lawful and Chaotic ones on both sides. Though Fire and Air tend to be more Chaotic, and Earth tends to be more Lawful.

The D&D default for all four of the elements is Neutral.

[Dhavaer]

Now, what subtle nuances of elemental alignment can we glean from this?

Air tends towards Chaos and Evil.

Earth tends towards Chaos and Evil.

Fire tends towards Law and Evil.

Water tends towards Good.

[AstralFire]

I'm still surrendering, but I also cheer quietly for Dhaever.

[Darkxarth]

Funny, when I stare into a fire, I see my dreams dancing about the embers. Fire's rather fragile, you know - doesn't take much to snuff one out, but they're oh-so-pretty.

Nevertheless, in my opinion the elements should not be associated with Good or Evil, and only maybe Law or Chaos.

Think about forest fires, like the ones in California a few days ago, they were spreading beyond control and they were only under their own control. They don't follow patterns, just the direction of the wind and the layout of the forest. I think fire is definitely Chaotic.

The earth is slow and deliberate, mostly. Earthquakes, however, rip the ground apart and collapse everything else. Earth tends toward neither Law or Chaos.

The wind follows certain patterns according to the air pressure of certain regions. But then tornados and hurricanes rip apart the land. Wind tends toward neither Law or Chaos.

The oceans follow patterns too, more so than winds even. And even things like tidal waves follow a certain pattern. I think water is very Lawful.

But as seems to be the case in multiple areas in D&D, Lawful seems to default to Good and Chaos seems to default to Evil

Disclaimer: Of course, any sciencey-sounding stuff in this thread is totally unproven by me and is only stuff I think I remember from my high school science classes.

[AstralFire]

I think it's better to be avoiding any alignment tendencies for the elements, period. There's a lot of philosophical ways you can take them.

[Darkxarth]

I think it's better to be avoiding any alignment tendencies for the elements, period. There's a lot of philosophical ways you can take them.

That's probably for the best, but you started it.

[AstralFire]

That's probably for the best, but you started it.

Well, I wasn't trying to provide an argument to make Fire associated with a bunch of CG fey dreamers so much as to provide a counterargument for the typical "fire is brutish and all-consuming and lacks finesse and blah."

[Lemur]

Seriously, it's a Monster Manual bias, not an elemental bias. You're not going to find a lot of good aligned monsters in the MM, while you'll find a lot of evil ones, regardless of type or subtype. Evil creatures make convenient villains, and good ones usually don't. You're reading into this way too much. A monster isn't evil because of what it's made of, it's evil so the paladin's targeting system can work.

[Dhavaer]

I'm still surrendering, but I also cheer quietly for Dhaever.

They all do, eventually. Muahahahahahahahaha...

[AstralFire]

Seriously, it's a Monster Manual bias, not an elemental bias. You're not going to find a lot of good aligned monsters in the MM, while you'll find a lot of evil ones, regardless of type or subtype. Evil creatures make convenient villains, and good ones usually don't. You're reading into this way too much. A monster isn't evil because of what it's made of, it's evil so the paladin's targeting system can work.

That's fair enough. However, the post gave me a mental image of a robo-paladin scanning the area for Sin Levels.

"CENTRAL! WE HAVE A CLEAR SIN READING. TARGET ACQUIRED. BEGINNING PROGRAM: SMITE.
10 SMITE
20 GOTO 10"

A cookie if you get the reference.

[kpenguin]

I agree with AstralFire that the (fire) subtype seems to be aligned a bit with evil.

using my list:
Air: 2 good vs. 3 evil
Earth: 1 good vs. 2 evil
Fire: 2 good vs. 5 evil
Water: 2 good vs. 1 evil

As you can see, the moral alignment scale is just a little bit unbalanced except for fire, which seems to slip pretty far to the evil side.

[Quietus]

Looking at elementals in particular (the primary source of elemental tropes, technically), they're all neutral. They don't have a direction or even a motivation generally - they are acted on by outside forces (each other, the moon, whatever), and react accordingly.

Now, if you don't like the way that they're represented, or think that they'd be better represented in another way, change it. That's one of the beautiful things about D&D... you can change the flavor of anything you like. If you want Fire to be Chaotic Neutral because it's unpredictable, and while it destroys things, it also has a rejuvenation aspect, you can do it.

It's your game. Don't let the fluff as provided hold you down.

[Assasinater]

Nevertheless, in my opinion the elements should not be associated with Good or Evil, and only maybe Law or Chaos.

Think about forest fires, like the ones in California a few days ago, they were spreading beyond control and they were only under their own control. They don't follow patterns, just the direction of the wind and the layout of the forest. I think fire is definitely Chaotic.

The earth is slow and deliberate, mostly. Earthquakes, however, rip the ground apart and collapse everything else. Earth tends toward neither Law or Chaos.

The wind follows certain patterns according to the air pressure of certain regions. But then tornados and hurricanes rip apart the land. Wind tends toward neither Law or Chaos.

The oceans follow patterns too, more so than winds even. And even things like tidal waves follow a certain pattern. I think water is very Lawful.

But as seems to be the case in multiple areas in D&D, Lawful seems to default to Good and Chaos seems to default to Evil

Disclaimer: Of course, any sciencey-sounding stuff in this thread is totally unproven by me and is only stuff I think I remember from my high school science classes.

Underlining is mine. So, when it comes to winds, there are certain scientific explanations (and such explanations nod towards Lawful, you say), but when it comes to fire, there aren't any scientific explanations? Even the example that you gave contradicts with what you've said: "just the direction of the wind" (wind is Lawful, like air?). That's a little hypocritical. Just because you can't calculate what the dice will come up doesn't mean it's random.

It should be thought from a purely mystic angle, in my opinion. Though I concur with the "Law-Chaos, rather than Good-Evil" thought. How I see is, for example, that earth is lawful, while all other three tend to be chaotic. Fire is because of passion, air and water are because of freedom. But water also symbolizes serenity. Hmm, there is the ocean and there is still water. Maybe neutral then?

[KillianHawkeye]

That's fair enough. However, the post gave me a mental image of a robo-paladin scanning the area for Sin Levels.

"CENTRAL! WE HAVE A CLEAR SIN READING. TARGET ACQUIRED. BEGINNING PROGRAM: SMITE.
10 SMITE
20 GOTO 10"

A cookie if you get the reference.

LOL

That was from the pirate/mechanic chick's robot from RPGWorld webcomic. I loved that his OS was written in Basic.

[KIDS]

I don't know how you came up with that, each element is what you make it up to be, no more, no less. Relax and enjoy...

[Gralamin]

I personally would base creatures off the beleifs of the Greeks/Romans (pertaining to each element).
See Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Aether