Killing Tiamat inside a Forcecage

[Eldariel]

Revisiting her statblock, I don't see it.

You forcecage her. What does this accomplish besides delaying the actual fight? A thing you absolutely want to do while you deal with the army of Abishai and cultists she absolutely has in the throne room or organizing the legendary hoard, etc.

Being extremely generous, let's assume you have 2 Sharpshooters in your party. They can hang out outside of her breath range and attempt to pepper her with arrows. Did they bring enough arrows to deal 600 damage while you deal with that army of adds? Is one a ranger? She ignores every spell the ranger uses, no hunter's mark, no hex, no eldritch blast, etc.

As a Wizard, cleric, etc, you have your 9th level, 8th level, and 2 6th level slots left to do something to her, she will ignore everything else. Note: you're cage is giving her a +2 to saves due to cover. Your animated object swarm won't bypass Immunities and will all die in the first breath. Magic missile, up to Bigby's hand, all ignored. Sunbeam, one of the handful of spells she won't be outright immune to, you're now in her breath range.

If you have a barbarian or fighter, they're getting into melee to try and beat down that 600+hp as well, making them vulnerable to her 6 attacks per round. And if one of them gets dropped low enough she might slay them outright.


I agree, she is not the best designed boss but it definitely isn't because she's a chump.

In my ideal Tiamat fight she's rising out of a volcano or fissure and you've spent the campaign getting allies to occupy other sides so your party can focus on one head at a time. Periodically her wings and tail emerge and risk squandering your actions (poisoning or knocking back).

Not enough allies and it's like fighting multiple ancient dragons at once, but that's me.

The particular fight takes place where she enters the material plane and basically has no help. So no army, no adds, no nothing. Just Tiamat, in her CR30 glory (you can even weaken her). You literally press Forcecage and then kill her with anything.

EDIT: Or I should say, there's armies on both sides outside the location but in the fight itself it's probably mostly PCs and Tiamat spends a couple of rounds eating her own allies and laughing and then comes for you.

Your Wizard can literally just cast Tenser's, get Haste from Simulacrum, and shoot her until she dies through her regeneration. It takes a couple of minutes. 100 arrows is plenty. The alternative is of course having your Simulacrum/yourself ready an action to cast any damage over time spell: level 7 Cloud of Daggers, level 8 Wall of Light or whatever kills her without any further input. Forget about a party, a single level 13 PC suffices (15 for a spell-based kill since self-Simulacrum won't obviously have a 7th level slot since that's spent to craft the Simulacrum).

Honestly, I don't get why a literal god only has one spell and one that does nothing at that. That runs counter to everything Clerics can do (and Warlocks while at it), let alone everything Gods supposedly stand for.

This only matters when whiterooming how to kill her, a DM would look at the size and then just decided how much space she occupies, which will likely be literally anything above 20/20

Obviously, DM can also give her some useful abilities and in general make her not a loser. Doesn't change what was printed.

How is she a derp? Her statblock is formidable and the party fighting her would be 14th level. Even if you could somehow face her without any minions AND with full resources, it's not an easy to win fight, if you can win at all.

She's basically just a big Tarrasque: lots of big numbers but no abilities of note. She's supposed to be a God. Gods are supposed to grant mortals spells and shape reality and be completely beyond mortal kin. She just doesn't really live up to her hype. She's a bit more scary than Big T in that she can at least fly and has a 120' attack but ultimately, I'd fear a Solar much more for instance since it actually has tactical mobility. Tiamat is still a fight you can win without having to overcome her numerically: something like a Lich or a Solar doesn't give you that option (though even Solars have an Achilles' Heel lacking Dispel Magic for no good reason).


EDIT: To clarify my position, I'm adding something I wrote later on.
What I mean by her being a "chump"
To me, a CR30 God that can lose to Tier 3 mortals is a "chump". That may be a definition not everyone agrees with but that's what I'm using. I expect more out of a veritable, real God (one of the few actual Gods we have stats for) and I expect more out of a CR30. And I'm sure you know this: we're really only discussing semantics without actually discussing the semantics.

Like, if you want me to formulate my argument more concisely:

- I believe a God who can lose to under Demigod level creatures (EDIT: as a further clarification, "demigod"-level includes stuff like Demon Lords, Dukes of Hell, etc. - big movers with a lot of power but not necessarily divinity) is most definitely not much of a God. And she's supposedly an Intermediate one at that, not even a lesser one or a demigod. So she should be pretty high up the divine hierarchy. To me, a God who can lose to non-epic mortals is a chump of a God.

- I believe a CR30 creature who can lose to Tier 3 parties is most definitely not worth their CR. And I believe a good way to describe a seriously over-CR'd creature is "chump".

You're free to tell me I'm using the word wrong or to disagree with me. Indeed, we can even agree to disagree. But I doubt that's going to change anything: I'm probably going to keep thinking of her as a chump as written, for both of those reasons. Mostly it's a schism between expectation and presentation: you say you're going to stat a friggin' God and then the only magic it can use is Divine Word. That alone is a massive disappointment. No environmental effects or anything. Another one. Inability to destroy objects with breaths. A third one. No interesting abilities, no way of saying "you puny mortals, I'm above you", etc. There's just way too many disappointments in her statblock for me to really come to any other conclusion. Her lack of listed size is just one of the myriad of issues.


Arguments in this thread
So far, people disagreeing with me have done so on the following grounds:
- "I as a DM would not allow this." My response: Sure, but that's not an assumption being made here in the first place. Nobody is saying you would actually DM it RAW, but discussing what's in the book.
- "Even with Forcecage she's a tough fight." My response: This is a position I simply can't understand. Is shooting a fish in a barrel a challenge? I completely reject this position, on the grounds that killing an enemy who can't fight back isn't very impressive nor much of a challenge. Sure, she has lots of immunities, high AC and regeneration. It's not trivial. But if you put your back to it, I posit that most level 14 parties should be able to do it.
- "It's not RAW that Tiamat is 20'/20'." My response: So what is RAW? RAW assumes no DM just the rules as written, so "DM call" isn't a valid answer. I don't see any other valid answers so if every other answer is wrong, it has to be the right answer or at least the least wrong answer if there are no other answers and this one is inconclusive.

Now, I haven't found these positions very convincing. Is it due to my bias in this? I think not, I don't think they're logically sound. Am I protecting my ego? Maybe on a subconscious level, but on a conscious level I have absolutely no problem with being wrong. However, I do not have a reason to believe so until a solid counterexample from the rules text somewhere comes up, which doesn't seem to exist within 5e paradigm (given how much we've mulled over this point). All the counterexamples have been backported from earlier editions, which makes them irrelevant WRT 5e RAW.

Curiously, I have received straight-up angry comments for this and much of the logic behind many of the counterarguments seems to have been clouded by emotion - in many cases, people have expressed exasperation or straight-up anger at the idea of Tiamat's statblock being weak, or that's how I've read it. This leads me to believe that I'm less likely to be the illogical one here: arguments made while emotionally invested in something are more likely to be biased than ones made when emotionally neutral. Of course, it's possible for both parties to be biased, but in the light of the evidence here I see no reason to believe that to be the case.


The other line - what if Forcecage doesn't work?
Then there's the aside of "But what if she didn't fit into a Forcecage?", which I found intriguing and which I'm exploring right now. That was the point of our test with DF and that is indeed something I'm not certain about, though it seems to me like a strong level 14 party can still do it (but there's of course some variance though with the amount of rolls the fight inevitably takes, not that much I don't think). I think it's a suitably challenging endboss fight for a level 14 party without Forcecage: I'd peck it at like CR 24-26. A bit over the daily XP budget but certainly not 3 times that.

As an aside, this hasn't been at all wasted. I learnt that there's boons to high level Valor Bard: while it's rare to get to play on level 14, Battle Magic is actually pretty darn useful in conjunction with ranged weapons and Dimension Door, especially with a good buff spell and Haste. It isn't as strong as just full attacking of course, but it's way better than just DD and do nothing. It might actually be that the Valor Bard in this encounter is performing better than the equivalent Swords Bard would have as a consequence in spite of me bewoeing the lack of Swords Bard in the first case (I would still pick Swords over Valor for all the levels up until level 14 but it's worth noting that level 14 Valor has few nice tricks). And of course, it seems like the best use for Inspiration in this case is hit boosting in conjunction with Sharpshooter, which makes Swords Bard less impressive since the whole point is the action economy being freed up to use the Bonus Action with Hand Crossbow and Crossbow Expert.

Also, I did learn that core only Cleric and Druid just are pretty darn bad at ranged combat especially if Conjure Woodland Beings is random or doesn't get you what you want (I didn't end up using it at all since I came to the conclusion that the likelihood of being given something useful was too small to bother with in the case where DM appears to dislike the spell in the first place).

Tests:
Level 14 PHB only no magic items party vs. Tiamat Run 1: This run featured two significant rules mistakes [Elemental Weapon damage & Whirlwind Concentration] not to mention a plethora of terrible tactical choices.

Level 14 PHB only no magic items party vs. Tiamat Run 2: This one should be largely RAW-accurate. Here we have shown that it is quite possible to defeat Tiamat on level 14 even as she was in release.

[PattThe]

In order to fit her in you need a barred cage, which I assume you're firing into. Her line attacks are 120ft reach. How far away can you be while still dealing significant damage? With bounded accuracy, longbow arrows and even attacking spells would be hard pressed to achieve the KO in banishing her in time for the spell to run out. Also, think of the terrain. Everywhere within 90 feet of her after just a couple of minutes would be a plagueland above and below her in a sphere of elemental chaos and draconic rage. Blade of Despair would be good actually.

No DM would make an hour of Tiamat's raging go unanswered. The terrain would be chaos enough to start spawning elementals every round. You'd turn her into a true multiphase abomination. Her roars would attract any remaining evil dragons for miles. She'd combine her black and green breath weapons to cloak the air within three hundred feet with chlorine gas. Ten 90-foot cones of fire in a minute multiplied over the hour would begin burning up oxygen and causing a smokescreen worthy enough of the term "obscured"- that or she would sublimate her ice breath into a suitable fog cloud for even more obscurement from targeting spells. Constant lightning would tear at the atmosphere above her, not to mention the plasma created from repeatedly zapping a fire-tornado of vaporized silica and carbon with almost a hundred points of damage. Better hope you have control weather, because if all of this blows in your direction then you'd have to relocate hundreds of feet around her like dodging the smoke from a bonfire- losing valuable time. You keep this thing in one location for multiple minutes and her HP total would be the least of your worries.

Not here to shut you down- I honestly want to hear how you'd take the practical response to openly force-caging this thing and thinking that you'd be safe. What's your best 121ft combat option?

Edit: Black and green wouldn't mix acid with gas, I meant to say water and gas. Right? I forget the old saying about mixing chemicals with Green Dragons' breath weapons.. So, sublimate that ice into a fog cloud with fire breath and then spray poison gas into that mist. Idk. Point is, twenty breath weapons a minute is still apocalyptic even if held in a cage. If she can mortar-bomb you and break your concentration, or stall for time behind smokescreens and fog clouds, you might run out of spell slots capable of punching through her spell immunity.

Edit 2: And just for ****s and giggles, imagine your DM gave Tiamat's avatar (reasonably so) draconic 5e spellcasting. Her CR is 30 and that means that her default spellcasting capabilities extend to all levels including tenth if your DM wanted to go crazy with it. +18 to hit and the same monstrous 26 save DC. She wouldn't have spell slots, as this feature uses once per day spells. Still, it wouldn't be outlandish for her to also have spells to augment her helplessness. I would not be surprised if in response to her imprisonment she threw a Meteor Swarm at you. Not sure if casting Demiplane inside the cage would also allow her to just wait out the timer for 59 minutes. Earthquake and Incendiary Storm are also stylish ways to assail you from 150 feet away. Alternatively she could try teleporting out and use a legendary action to break the forcecage's check. Definitely a fail-forward scenario there. Move Earth creates total cover on one side. Arcane Gate funnily enough has no described size limit and is not described as teleportation nor ethereal travel- but that could be debated. Turning invisible is curious, as she'd be stuck in a single spot yet nonetheless not a creature within sight. She could also cast enlarge-reduce on herself if you made the mistake of telling her ahead of time that you're putting her in a forcecage. Imagine just as you cast it she Enlarges to an unexplored 5e Colossal size just big enough to be shunted outside of the forcecage.
Damn that was fun.

[Unoriginal]

Being able to channel divine power through Clerics does not mean a god can use their RAW divine might whenever, even during a fight. Same way they can't just do Divine Interventions anywhere in the world.

So let's take Tiamat's statblock as it is.

Yet Tiamat, on top of being a goddess, is an Archfiend and the toughest dragon. Even if you did manage to Forcecage her, how are you killing her given that she STILL is immune to all spells below the 7th level, STILL has her enormous AC and divine immunities, and on top of that your own Forcecage protects her?

Also, you can easily overcome a Lich numericaly.

[PattThe]

Being able to channel divine power through Clerics does not mean a god can use their RAW divine might whenever, even during a fight. Same way they can't just do Divine Interventions anywhere in the world.

Tiamat, on top of being a goddess, is an Archfiend and the toughest dragon. Even if you did manage to Forcecage her, how are you killing her given that she STILL is immune to all spells below the 7th level, STILL has her enormous AC and divine immunities, and on top of that your own Forcecage protects her?

Also, you can easily overcome a Lich numericaly.

She literally has divine word. That's WOTC letting you know that this Divine Avatar may not be an exarch rolling around with epic divine power accessible at will but she's still undeniably a divine powerhouse- instead of cleric casting she uses a more carnal manifestation summoning raw elemental strength over positive or negative energy drawn from followers or what have you. Their 7th level cloud of daggers is actually sick, but you still have legendary resistances to count in. Still, you're getting in the danger zone even casting Cloud of Daggers with Distant Spell, as 120ft is still dangerously close. Their use of Haste is very smart, but Haste will make you lose a round before the hour is up. Tiamat would have to survive until your haste runs out, then bust a move. Forcecage too has a 100ft reach, and the caster would have to escape her breath weapons without suffering loss of concentration. What I love about this is it's still a fight, even with her chained in place. Because you gotta get close enough to start it, then get out of range without dropping any of your limited 7+ level magics.

[Eldariel]

Not here to shut you down- I honestly want to hear how you'd take the practical response to openly force-caging this thing and thinking that you'd be safe. What's your best 121ft combat option?

I believe I already mentioned Tenser's + Haste [needs to be recast a couple of times by your Simulacrum but it has enough slots for this to not be an issue] from a level 13 Wizard with 16 Dex and a +1 Longbow. It does enough damage to overcome her Regen and kill her in about 4* minutes (150' range). If you happen to have Elven Accuracy (e.g. you're a Bladesinger or an Evoker-type interested in Scorching Ray + Spirit Shroud), you can do 45 DPR which translates to 15 damage a turn counting her regeneration. 585 [615-30 - she drops to 0 before regen]/15 = 39 rounds so about 4 minutes, give or take. If you have an 18+ Dex (e.g. from Magic Jar: this adventure features plenty of good targets, e.g. the Dragonsoul Cultists which give you +3d6 on an attack with advantage and 18 Dex) body, you don't need Elven Accuracy - 18 Dex and +1 weapon would do 40ish DPR which amounts to 6 minutes to kill her (and 180 arrows, which is indeed a lot but between the party you probably have that much - the opportunity cost for carrying lots of arrows is pretty minor). But even a standard Dex 16 Wizard 13 would need only minor help from literally any source to get the job done (Magic Weapon spell or Elemental Weapon or such if there are no magic bows in the party and someone capable of doing any damage whatsoever).

Other options, well, if you have a slot left (say, another level 13 Wizard in the party or you're level 15 [which the adventure sets as a plausible level for this point]) is to use magic. Cloud of Daggers only lasts 1 minute so it's impractical but the perennial companion of Forcecage/Wall of Force, Wall of Light, cast out of 8th level slot does do 7d8 per turn for 31,5 which adds 1,5 damage a turn. You need your Simulacrum to add a spell on top of it (another Wall of Light works as does Cloud of Daggers) for a total of 63 damage a turn which kills her in a bit under two minutes (18 rounds on average) and lasts for 10 minutes. Indeed, two Cloud of Daggers of course suffice too; 80 damage a turn from Cloud of Daggers VIII x2 does her in in 12 turns - not quite enough but if you have literally any source of damage on top of that (a source of 8,5 damage a turn would suffice). But of course, you're more likely to have Wall of Light than Cloud of Daggers anyways if you're using Forcecage since it's the better spell to go with it (for, among others, the reasons mentioned here).

If you have a Cleric, there's Summon Celestial VI or VIII, which works great. Summon Undead VI or VIII would work too. 17 DPR for Celestial 6 (or 35 if you can give it Advantage with Concealment, by e.g. casting Silent Image of Darkness or Greater Invisibility [you're outside True Seeing range] or whatever to let it attack from Concealment giving it advantage) or 13/30 for Summon Undead 6, and 20/45 for Summon Undead 8 and 22/49 for Summon Celestial 8. It goes without saying that it doesn't take a lot of these to kill her. Both spells last an hour so one casting is enough as long as they can do enough damage. On a party level, that shouldn't be a problem. For a single character, the best option depends entirely on your build but there are plenty of tools that work here.

She literally has divine word. That's WOTC letting you know that this Divine Avatar may not be an exarch rolling around with epic divine power accessible at will but she's still undeniably a divine powerhouse- instead of cleric casting she uses a more carnal manifestation summoning raw elemental strength over positive or negative energy drawn from followers or what have you. Their 7th level cloud of daggers is actually sick, but you still have legendary resistances to count in. Still, you're getting in the danger zone even casting Cloud of Daggers with Distant Spell, as 120ft is still dangerously close. Their use of Haste is very smart, but Haste will make you lose a round before the hour is up. Tiamat would have to survive until your haste runs out, then bust a move. Forcecage too has a 100ft reach, and the caster would have to escape her breath weapons without suffering loss of concentration. What I love about this is it's still a fight, even with her chained in place. Because you gotta get close enough to start it, then get out of range without dropping any of your limited 7+ level magics.

Forcecage doesn't have Concentration. The DoTs do but you don't need to be in range of her breaths at the end of your turn. Legendary Resistance doesn't matter since these DoTs are no-save damage. Well, casting Cloud of Daggers is risky but it lasts a short enough duration anyways: Wall of Light is better (as per usual).

[PattThe]

I believe I already mentioned Tenser's + Haste [needs to be recast a couple of times by your Simulacrum but it has enough slots for this to not be an issue] from a level 13 Wizard with 16 Dex and a +1 Longbow. It does enough damage to overcome her Regen and kill her in about 4* minutes (150' range). If you happen to have Elven Accuracy (e.g. you're a Bladesinger or an Evoker-type interested in Scorching Ray + Spirit Shroud), you can do 45 DPR which translates to 15 damage a turn counting her regeneration. 585 [615-30 - she drops to 0 before regen]/15 = 39 rounds so about 4 minutes, give or take. If you have an 18+ Dex (e.g. from Magic Jar: this adventure features plenty of good targets, e.g. the Dragonsoul Cultists which give you +3d6 on an attack with advantage and 18 Dex) body, you don't need Elven Accuracy - 18 Dex and +1 weapon would do 40ish DPR which amounts to 6 minutes to kill her . . .

Do you think the calculation would get a lot riskier with events causing you to have to move about the arena? I mean, like, imagine that everyone agrees on this as the plan in and out of character- including the DM. Imagine you have a board-game challenge scenario where you have to keep moving to other cardinal directions from the forcecage as Tiamat's avatar slowly transforms the arena into a hellscape of obscuring atmospheric effects, raging wildfires fifty feet wide, literal pools of acid, icy terrain, and clouds of gas piling up on the arena. Nothing she could do would make her obscured from all directions, but she could definitely force you to have to move around her a lot if the DM ruled that she can produce effective Fog Clouds with her breath weapons. ......

.......not to mention her spending all her actions on the Dodge action and her breath weapons on her legendary actions out of turn.

[Eldariel]

Do you think the calculation would get a lot riskier with events causing you to have to move about the arena? I mean, like, imagine that everyone agrees on this as the plan in and out of character- including the DM. Imagine you have a board-game challenge scenario where you have to keep moving to other cardinal directions from the forcecage as Tiamat's avatar slowly transforms the arena into a hellscape of obscuring atmospheric effects, raging wildfires fifty feet wide, literal pools of acid, icy terrain, and clouds of gas piling up on the arena. Nothing she could do would make her obscured from all directions, but she could definitely force you to have to move around her a lot if the DM ruled that she can produce effective Fog Clouds with her breath weapons. ......

.......not to mention her spending all her actions on the Dodge action and her breath weapons on her legendary actions out of turn.

Well, of course environmental damage would potentially require Concentration checks. In this case that's probably the primary threat. Dodge we'd be looking at needing two sources of damage. For example Summon Undead VI and an archer Wizard; together they can output sufficient damage to get through the Regeneration. Same with most of the other suggested damage sources. It's mostly a matter of pumping at-will damage or DOT at rates that exceed her regen and don't hit her immunities but of course, I'd just give her some mobility tools to make her harder to lock down.

[Silly Name]

Are we assuming the hypothetical party faces Tiamat at full strength? And I mean the party's - full HP, spell slots, class features and all that stuff. I haven't played Rise of Tiamat, but I'd assume there would have been some resource attrition before the big boss fight, as well as some possibility for reinforcements to arrive.

We are also running on the assumption that Tiamat fits in the Forcecage. Remember, Gargantuan is 20 by 20 or larger, so could simply be too large to be stuck. For example, the tarrasque is fifty feet tall and seventy feet long, and it's Gargantuan too, and one of Tiamat's old statblocks has her at 60 feet long.

Even if stuck, she can use her Frightful Presence to make your aim worse, and that thing has 240 feet of range.

Regarding Tiamat's spellcasting in 5e, I take her use of Divine Word to be more for flavour than for actual power. She can drop down a bunch of lowly creatures with just a word, banish fiends and celestials, and perhaps even force a melee combatant to save or suck once she has whittled down their HP. But it's not her primary method of attack.

[Unoriginal]

It's true that Tiamat may just be too big for Forcecage.

But even without that, Tiamat is immune to spell of 6th level or less. It doesn't matter if you're using higher level spell slots, level of the spell slot =/= level of the spell. So Could of Dagger and Wall of Light are out.

And if you want to attack her with a bow, well, let's be generous and assume your Wizard has Sharpshooter for some reasons, so the cover from being in the cage doesn't apply. Even then, there is *nothing* preventing Tiamat from using the Dodge action, negating any advantages you have.

[Bobthewizard]

I don't think Tiamat fits in a 20'x20' force cage. She's much bigger than that.

I don't think arrows can attack through a force cage's 1/2" openings. 1/2" is smaller than medieval arrowheads I've seen. You'd have to use spells. Attack spells would have 3/4 cover since 3/4 of the cage is force field, but I don't know if that matters.

If you could fit her in the force cage, I'd think an upcast sickening radiance would be your best bet. 100 CON saves, fail 6 and you're dead. I think upcast spells count as the level they are cast from, as opposed to globe of invulnerability, which says "even if the spell is cast using a higher level spell slot." Tiamat's doesn't say that so upcasting should be fine.

[Eldariel]

Are we assuming the hypothetical party faces Tiamat at full strength? And I mean the party's - full HP, spell slots, class features and all that stuff. I haven't played Rise of Tiamat, but I'd assume there would have been some resource attrition before the big boss fight, as well as some possibility for reinforcements to arrive.

We are also running on the assumption that Tiamat fits in the Forcecage. Remember, Gargantuan is 20 by 20 or larger, so could simply be too large to be stuck. For example, the tarrasque is fifty feet tall and seventy feet long, and it's Gargantuan too, and one of Tiamat's old statblocks has her at 60 feet long.

Even if stuck, she can use her Frightful Presence to make your aim worse, and that thing has 240 feet of range.

Regarding Tiamat's spellcasting in 5e, I take her use of Divine Word to be more for flavour than for actual power. She can drop down a bunch of lowly creatures with just a word, banish fiends and celestials, and perhaps even force a melee combatant to save or suck once she has whittled down their HP. But it's not her primary method of attack.

Yeah, but by the book she's just Gargantuan with no mention of size so there's really no proviso for anything but 20'/20' assuming DM isn't changing stuff (which they should be). The frightful presence wears off in a minute and grants immunity so it isn't all that impactful.

[Silly Name]

Yeah, but by the book she's just Gargantuan with no mention of size so there's really no proviso for anything but 20'/20' assuming DM isn't changing stuff (which they should be). The frightful presence wears off in a minute and grants immunity so it isn't all that impactful.

As I said, we technically have older editions putting Tiamat at bigger than 20'/20'. A DM may simply look up info on Tiamat and decide that she should maintain her old size, without even considering that this makes it impossible to fit her in a Forcecage.

Frightful Presence is still a way to increase Tiamat's chances to be missed from your attacks and have her regeneration overtake your damage output.

[Eldariel]

As I said, we technically have older editions putting Tiamat at bigger than 20'/20'. A DM may simply look up info on Tiamat and decide that she should maintain her old size, without even considering that this makes it impossible to fit her in a Forcecage.

Frightful Presence is still a way to increase Tiamat's chances to be missed from your attacks and have her regeneration overtake your damage output.

Depends on how it goes but if you get frightened before casting Forcecage, you can just wait it out before commencing killing. Of course, it doesn't matter for the spell-based method.

But yeah, of course I'm only talking about this statblock. Never has Tiamat been this weak: transplant literally anything from earlier editions and she'll be a fight on a whole different ballpark.

[Silly Name]

By the way, I'm currently planning on having Tiamat as the end boss for my current campaign, which is why I've been looking at both her 5e stats and older stuff.

Is the proposed scenario the one faced in Rise of Tiamat? While I agree her statblock is far more manageable than in earlier editions, it seems to me the proposed starting point is heavily stacked against Tiamat, with no minions or reinforcements, a battlefield that lets you move away and the assumption the party starts far away from the Dragon Queen, or at least far away enough that this strategy is easy to perform.

[Eldariel]

By the way, I'm currently planning on having Tiamat as the end boss for my current campaign, which is why I've been looking at both her 5e stats and older stuff.

Is the proposed scenario the one faced in Rise of Tiamat? While I agree her statblock is far more manageable than in earlier editions, it seems to me the proposed starting point is heavily stacked against Tiamat, with no minions or reinforcements, a battlefield that lets you move away and the assumption the party starts far away from the Dragon Queen, or at least far away enough that this strategy is easy to perform.

It's by the book. You can prevent her from coming through and even weaken her but even if you don't, she spends few rounds eating her summoners laughing all the while and only then comes for you and the location is MASSIVE (to the tune of 400' diameter with over 100' elevation.

If you wanna run her, give her some cool breath shape abilities (3e has great inspiration) and at least rudimentary spellcasting ability (she's a god, she has magic). This way Force obstacles can buy turns but can't just negate her whole threat level. If she has to spend her turns using Disintegrating Breath on a Wall of Force, that's totally worth it for PCd but means she's still coming for you though buying you time to harm her of try and debuff her.

[Silly Name]

It's by the book. You can prevent her from coming through and even weaken her but even if you don't, she spends few rounds eating her summoners laughing all the while and only then comes for you and the location is MASSIVE (to the tune of 400' diameter with over 100' elevation.

... Uh. I bought RoT and have been skimming it, so saw the statblock and the potential to stop the summoning/weaken her (planning to insert something similar, but I want to use Orbs of Dragonkind instead), as well as taking inspiration on how her cult could act. I had missed her doing something so dumb.

If you wanna run her, give her some cool breath shape abilities (3e has great inspiration) and at least rudimentary spellcasting ability (she's a god, she has magic). This way Force obstacles can buy turns but can't just negate her whole threat level. If she has to spend her turns using Disintegrating Breath on a Wall of Force, that's totally worth it for PCd but means she's still coming for you though buying you time to harm her of try and debuff her.

Hm, may be time to dig out my old 3rd edition Dragonlance books. I remember the campaign setting having a few nice feats for dragons... Draconomicon too.

I'm not sure I want to give her too much spellcasting, but perhaps something on top of Divine Word could work. The idea of her channelling magic through her breath weapons is neat, however: some sort of primal, pure draconic might. Maybe toss in Power Word Stun and Power Word Pain, since I love the idea of gods speaking a single word of pure power.

[Unoriginal]

... Uh. I bought RoT and have been skimming it, so saw the statblock and the potential to stop the summoning/weaken her (planning to insert something similar, but I want to use Orbs of Dragonkind instead), as well as taking inspiration on how her cult could act. I had missed her doing something so dumb.

Less dumb when you consider the PCs in question are a bunch of lvl 14 max PCs (unless I'm mistaken).

.
I'm not sure I want to give her too much spellcasting, but perhaps something on top of Divine Word could work. The idea of her channelling magic through her breath weapons is neat, however: some sort of primal, pure draconic might. Maybe toss in Power Word Stun and Power Word Pain, since I love the idea of gods speaking a single word of pure power.

You could give her the capacity to turn into the different substances/energies her breaths are made of.

But yeah, gods do use the Words of Creation to create and alter worlds.

[Eldariel]

3e Breath Enhancing spells (among others Dispelling and Disintegrating Breath) seem really cool and flavourful for her (they're in Draconomicon and Spell Compendium) - could try something like that. Also Breath Shape Feats from Draconomicon and Races of the Dragon are really cool: lets her breathe out elementals, lingering damage clouds, napalm, energy walls and such. Combined with her Legendary Actions, feels awesome to me.

[JackPhoenix]

Do you think the calculation would get a lot riskier with events causing you to have to move about the arena? I mean, like, imagine that everyone agrees on this as the plan in and out of character- including the DM. Imagine you have a board-game challenge scenario where you have to keep moving to other cardinal directions from the forcecage as Tiamat's avatar slowly transforms the arena into a hellscape of obscuring atmospheric effects, raging wildfires fifty feet wide, literal pools of acid, icy terrain, and clouds of gas piling up on the arena. Nothing she could do would make her obscured from all directions, but she could definitely force you to have to move around her a lot if the DM ruled that she can produce effective Fog Clouds with her breath weapons. ......

.......not to mention her spending all her actions on the Dodge action and her breath weapons on her legendary actions out of turn.

Well, the problem is that she can't do any of that. Dragon's breath is one-and-gone thing. No pools of acid, no lingering clouds of poison gas. It can't even set stuff on fire, for Gygax's sake, as it only damage screatures.

[MaxWilson]

It's true that Tiamat may just be too big for Forcecage.

But even without that, Tiamat is immune to spell of 6th level or less. It doesn't matter if you're using higher level spell slots, level of the spell slot =/= level of the spell. So Could of Dagger and Wall of Light are out.

And if you want to attack her with a bow, well, let's be generous and assume your Wizard has Sharpshooter for some reasons, so the cover from being in the cage doesn't apply. Even then, there is *nothing* preventing Tiamat from using the Dodge action, negating any advantages you have.

Unoriginal, I think you may be mixing up Tiamat's immunity with Globe of Invulnerability. Globe of Invulnerability would negate Wall of Light VIII, Magic Missile VIII, etc. Tiamat's immunity would not. Like a Rakshasa's, her immunity only cares about the final spell level after upcasting, not the original level.

IMO Dodge is a good strategy but insufficient to make her interesting because it just requires you to use more than a lone PC to kill her. "Aha, Tiamat at full strength requires TWO OR THREE PCs to kill her!" isn't much of a message for PCs who have spent the whole campaign apparently doing nothing, failing at or ignoring opportunities to weaken her eventual manifestation. Players who do that deserve to see something awe-inspiring, the in-game equivalent of Rocks Fall Everybody Dies (And I Mean EVERYBODY).

Cthulhu's Stage 4 influence, if you let it get that far, requires everyone within TEN MILES to make DC 23 Wis saves every round to avoid Domination, DC 23 Dex saves every round to avoid being restrained by tentacles, and DC 23 Str saves every round that you're restrained to avoid being consumed and instantly destroyed. He also distorts spell ranges, etc., although I don't have the details memorized. And he moves 2400' per round (because he's implied to be thousands of feet tall) and has 449 HP and (like all Elder Influences) is immune to all spell effects except damage, and regains 100 HP every round he eats someone, which is pretty much every round if any people are within 10 miles. And he constantly spawns allies like shoggoths and Mother Hydra and Father Dagon. While he is technically vulnerable to mere combat kills a la Teleport + Unload a bunch of magic arrows in his face, if you bring enough guys along on the Teleport and expect to take a lot of casualties in the process, you'd have to be insane to want to let things escalate to the point where that kind of gamble is necessary.

Tiamat at full strength should feel like THAT.

[Silly Name]

Less dumb when you consider the PCs in question are a bunch of lvl 14 max PCs (unless I'm mistaken).

I mean, it's still dumb because she spends a couple of rounds doing the whole "look at how eeeeevil I am" shtick rather than just blast the fools with hails of fire and ice and lightning and acid. I'm checking the section on her rising from the Hells right now, and I can't figure out why she would prioritise engaging in some traditional "your reward is death" before dealing with the opposition.

[Unoriginal]

I mean, it's still dumb because she spends a couple of rounds doing the whole "look at how eeeeevil I am" shtick rather than just blast the fools with hails of fire and ice and lightning and acid. I'm checking the section on her rising from the Hells right now, and I can't figure out why she would prioritise engaging in some traditional "your reward is death" before dealing with the opposition.

Isn't killing them necessary to complete the ritual?

[PattThe]

Are we assuming the hypothetical party faces Tiamat at full strength? And I mean the party's - full HP, spell slots, class features and all that stuff. I haven't played Rise of Tiamat, but I'd assume there would have been some resource attrition before the big boss fight

Only 7th and up magic matters for dps, then its arrows. Also DAMN this thread is hot.

[PattThe]

I don't think Tiamat fits in a 20'x20' force cage. She's much bigger than that.

Y'all are squaaaares. It's her avatar, not Tiamat proper. The cloud of daggers is cast at 7th level. You only need to beat frightful presence once ti gain 24 hours of immunity. And what DM WOULDN'T let their players get away with trying this highly risky but smart plan?

[Eldariel]

Unoriginal, I think you may be mixing up Tiamat's immunity with Globe of Invulnerability. Globe of Invulnerability would negate Wall of Light VIII, Magic Missile VIII, etc. Tiamat's immunity would not. Like a Rakshasa's, her immunity only cares about the final spell level after upcasting, not the original level.

IMO Dodge is a good strategy but insufficient to make her interesting because it just requires you to use more than a lone PC to kill her. "Aha, Tiamat at full strength requires TWO OR THREE PCs to kill her!" isn't much of a message for PCs who have spent the whole campaign apparently doing nothing, failing at or ignoring opportunities to weaken her eventual manifestation. Players who do that deserve to see something awe-inspiring, the in-game equivalent of Rocks Fall Everybody Dies (And I Mean EVERYBODY).

Cthulhu's Stage 4 influence, if you let it get that far, requires everyone within TEN MILES to make DC 23 Wis saves every round to avoid Domination, DC 23 Dex saves every round to avoid being restrained by tentacles, and DC 23 Str saves every round that you're restrained to avoid being consumed and instantly destroyed. He also distorts spell ranges, etc., although I don't have the details memorized. And he moves 2400' per round (because he's implied to be thousands of feet tall) and has 449 HP and (like all Elder Influences) is immune to all spell effects except damage, and regains 100 HP every round he eats someone, which is pretty much every round if any people are within 10 miles. And he constantly spawns allies like shoggoths and Mother Hydra and Father Dagon. While he is technically vulnerable to mere combat kills a la Teleport + Unload a bunch of magic arrows in his face, if you bring enough guys along on the Teleport and expect to take a lot of casualties in the process, you'd have to be insane to want to let things escalate to the point where that kind of gamble is necessary.

Tiamat at full strength should feel like THAT.

See, THIS is what I'm talking about. Bloody hell, Elder Evils did it better too: they actually alter the world with their signs and stuff and when they come, even the aspects are deadly. Tiamat is a literal deity. She should be cut above a Great Old One. Definitely three cuts above mere Demon Lords or Dukes of Hell but I'd rather face her than any of the demon lords or similars. She shouldn't necessarily be a spellcaster outside her own domain (Alter Reality backported from 3e) but she definitely should have enough power at least have the tools to avoid the simplest, most obvious magical tricks and be a threat beyond just being a Tarrasque with Breath Weapons. At least make the breath weapons interesting! 3e did great stuff with this. And obviously she should have, if not massive power, at least basic spellcasting like Dispels and Disintegrates and at least Misty Step-level teleportation and perhaps stuff that synergises well with her abilities like Sleet Storm, Enlarge, Dragon's Breath, etc.

While the world around is burning (fire), freezing (ice breath), melting (acid), exploding (lightning) and under a miasma (poison). World-warping is the first thing deific figures should do around themselves.

[PattThe]

See, THIS is what I'm talking about. Bloody hell, Elder Evils did it better too: they actually alter the world with their signs and stuff and when they come, even the aspects are deadly. Tiamat is a literal deity. She should be cut above a Great Old One. Definitely three cuts above mere Demon Lords or Dukes of Hell but I'd rather face her than any of the demon lords or similars. She shouldn't necessarily be a spellcaster outside her own domain (Alter Reality backported from 3e) but she definitely should have enough power at least have the tools to avoid the simplest, most obvious magical tricks and be a threat beyond just being a Tarrasque with Breath Weapons. At least make the breath weapons interesting! 3e did great stuff with this. And obviously she should have, if not massive power, at least basic spellcasting like Dispels and Disintegrates and at least Misty Step-level teleportation and perhaps stuff that synergises well with her abilities like Sleet Storm, Enlarge, Dragon's Breath, etc.

While the world around is burning (fire), freezing (ice breath), melting (acid), exploding (lightning) and under a miasma (poison). World-warping is the first thing deific figures should do around themselves.

I swear that this is an avatar of Tiamat. She's IMPRISONED in Avernus! She CAN'T leave! It's an avatar come to collect the hoard to take to Tiamat. Waht, did you think she was going to sleep in her hoard HERE? This is just a mighty feast worth having picked up and delivered to you! I swear, the book has got to call it an avatar. We all know it doesn't make sense otherwise.

I also say that Demogorgon's stat block is its minimum power state when entirely disconnected from abyssal power sources. He's supposed to smash up other demons and swell with power. Have a plotline of a Nabassu obtaining vast power all campaign, then getting split in half and devoured by Demogorgon pumping him up to CR30 and able to grow better with the CR boost of their lair- which should be a lair with terrain effects at-will to the extent of their entire layer of the Abyss.

[Eldariel]

I swear that this is an avatar of Tiamat. She's IMPRISONED in Avernus! She CAN'T leave! It's an avatar come to collect the hoard to take to Tiamat. Waht, did you think she was going to sleep in her hoard HERE? This is just a mighty feast worth having picked up and delivered to you! I swear, the book has got to call it an avatar. We all know it doesn't make sense otherwise.

The whole point of such a massive, elaborate ritual is to let her escape though. The book goes in great length to state that this is the real thing, further supported by the discorporation-ability. Not that I'd mind, I'd be totally on board with Aspects of Tiamat. But frankly, I'd still want to see some magic and some more interesting abilities in that regard. Though that's an issue with monster design in 5e by and large: mostly just sacs of HP that hit you for some HP. Big things in particular don't really feel thay big.

[PattThe]

The whole point of such a massive, elaborate ritual is to let her escape though. The book goes in great length to state that this is the real thing, further supported by the discorporation-ability. Not that I'd mind, I'd be totally on board with Aspects of Tiamat. But frankly, I'd still want to see some magic and some more interesting abilities in that regard. Though that's an issue with monster design in 5e by and large: mostly just sacs of HP that hit you for some HP. Big things in particular don't really feel thay big.

Isn't that just what the cultists think? Am I conflating the 1-4 adventure with the greater campaign? Because I swore that she was just here to collect the end-of-campaign superhoard. Maybe I should watch that silly animated trailer for the campaign again to see if there's anything there about her escaping explicitly..


Edit: Perhaps she just isn't fully here yet, and that the ritual has a clause that she needs enough time to fully manifest?

[Unoriginal]

Well, if we want to go into the details (where the Devil is), no actual god can incarnate at full power.

5e gods have a weird semi-ubiquity which let them influence large amount of world, but how much and the kind of influence they depends on the nature of each specific Crystal Sphere. Meaning that on different world the same deity can be Major, Lesser or a barely known footnote.

On Faerun, Tiamat is a Lesser Goddess, but Ao said "full gods can't walk on Faerun, reeee", so all the gods who do want to do it have to adopt lesser forms. Which is why the Dead Three are currently in perfectly killable bodies.

We know of at least one demigod who tried to 1-vs-1 Tiamat in her Lair on Avernus, and he got his donkey cursed into an ironic punishment by the God-Queen of All Evil Dragons faster than you can say it. And Zariel won't even try to take on Tiamat even if she has her armies with her

Now, that is all post-facto lore. I agree that the Tiamat statblock should have more, but not because it's weak or "easily beatable" as it is. It's just Tiamat deserves more awesomeness. At the very least she should get country-sized Regional and Lair effects by her mere presence.

I'll honestly never understand what motivated WotC to have *this* particular adventure written by a different team, before the MM was finished, and with a level range unsuitable for its epic scope.

[PattThe]

Well, if we want to go into the details (where the Devil is), no actual god can incarnate at full power.

Exactly!! With the world of 5e (Post Second-Sundering) being as it is, this material plane is only permitted to manifest a cr 30 power level. Or, whatever Zargon the Returner is.

Blame Ao, and thus blame wotc. :P
Of course, that's only if the DM permits it. Wotc and DMs are kind of like over-overgods. I wonder if that would make players (who can have god-level PC's that reshape reality "because it looks cool") on-par powers with things like Ao and their usage of the gods' reach into the crystal spheres. Meh, tangential.

We know of at least one demigod who tried to 1-vs-1 Tiamat in her Lair on Avernus, and he got his donkey cursed into an ironic punishment by the God-Queen of All Evil Dragons faster than you can say it. And Zariel won't even try to take on Tiamat even if she has her armies with her

Now, that is all post-facto lore. I agree that the Tiamat statblock should have more, but not because it's weak or "easily beatable" as it is. It's just Tiamat deserves more awesomeness. At the very least she should get country-sized Regional and Lair effects by her mere presence.

And think about Zariel's Demon-Lord level stat block at 24 or 26 or something. If we take CR to be at least somewhat exponential in terms of material manifestations for both participants (leaving the outer planes out of this and having both of them be present and banished back to Avernus if slain as if conjured, which is kind of what all living things with souls are doing.. ) She would be seriously scared into a rout away from that 6 grade boost. Just think about how horrified a CR 24 Demon Lord would be seeing Demogorgon's base form swagger in with two arbitrary levels of badass on them, and just how many lower CR minions you'd need to fodder just one round of their actions and legendary action, and healing up the damage they deal.

Also, why not apply those effects stylishly over a few rounds, turning the battlefield into terrain-lair effects by the aftermath of their offensive assault? I am absolutely still gunning for thematic dynamic combat maps, heh.

Edit:

I'll honestly never understand what motivated WotC to have *this* particular adventure written by a different team, before the MM was finished, and with a level range unsuitable for its epic scope.

New consumer walk into store see book with dragon on cover "oh hey is that dungeons and dragons oh hey it is"