OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

Well, this is silly. Of course there was a reason, the reason was that Fenrir spent all their chargen points on their unique abilities, growing fast and breeding large numbers. He figured it would let them make up the difference in assets.

He was wrong, is all.

And I'm sure knowing that their creator messed up, and nobody else stepped in to help, will be a tremendous comfort for the goblins.

[Fyraltari]

Well, this is silly. Of course there was a reason, the reason was that Fenrir spent all their chargen points on their unique abilities, growing fast and breeding large numbers. He figured it would let them make up the difference in assets.

He was wrong, is all.

Yeah, but there was no reason for them to start with poorer lands than the humans or dwarves.

[Segev]

I don't think Roy's "realization" near the end of today's comic is a fair one. Nor is Durkon's comparison to "fighting a vampire while talking to him."

There's a big difference between believing that the person you've known well for a long time might have motives or behaviors that are not "his" driving him to fight you, and believing that every random creature who attacks you will screaming for your blood is somebody you might be able to talk down.

I sincerely doubt that nobody has ever asked a goblin why he was attacking - if only when the goblins had innocent dirt farmers pinned to the ground and were killing them or torturing them for fun - but the goblins also don't tend to think like Redcloak does. They don't do the whole "because we're starving" explanation - they gloat about how they're stronger, or about how it's "because we can," or don't bother answering.

Now, this is a fantasy setting, so the "crappy lands" the goblinoids live in might be magically useless, not just not-as-easy as the lands the others got, but nothing kept them from moving elsewhere peaceably. Goblins keep making bad choices, too.

That doesn't mean the treatment for this ailment is not to try to, well, treat with them. Offer them freer access to nicer lands, offer to trade with them, offer to interact peaceably if they'll interact peaceably. The trouble with blaming it all on "not asking them" is that it's entirely unreasonable to expect that somebody who is being actively attacked to try to patiently talk down the attacker - repeatedly - until the attacker might deign to give an explanation and then listen to the one he's attacking reason with him.

Roy's whole party would be dead much more often (and probably not in a position to be raised) if they'd tried that with a number of the monsters they've faced.

Heck, Redcloak himself proved how dangerous, stupid, and unlikely to work that is when he cast implosion on Durkon, who was explicitly trying to hear Redcloak's side of the story and offer some sort of bargain.

[JonahFalcon]

Well, Durkon certainly used Thor's "no, but you did" tactic on Roy.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

[Cicciograna]

The comic is beautiful, as always, but I feel that the explaination given by Durkon to Roy about why the goblins got the short end of the stick was too terse. It took Durkon a long conversation with a high cleric of the opposite faction, and some discussion with his own god, to start having an understanding of how and why the goblins have been screwed...and yet, Roy seems to be grasping the various implications on the matter in, like, three or four panels.

I mean, we know what Durkon is talking about, but I feel that a more credible response of somebody who never gave the issue any thought, when hearing Durkon saying "His people were treated poor when the world was made", would have been "What are you talking about?".

Although I fully realize that this is just for the matter of comic exposition, to avoid repeating arguments that have already been presented. I guess I spent too much (or not enough) time with the blond guy with the puppet. Also, maybe Roy did spend some time considering the issue, although he never really spent some time, so the arguments brought by Durkon just rang the bell for him.

[isamaru]

OotS: From lighthearted D&D parody to serious social commentary in 1232 little steps.

I still love it!
It's just remarkable how far we've come and grown since the start, this strip really drives that home for me. And by "we" I mean the characters, Rich and me, the reader. I was 16 when I started reading, now I'm double that age. I wonder if my young self would have been able to appreciate this as much I do.

[Thermophille]

Yeah, but there was no reason for them to start with poorer lands than the humans or dwarves.

Personally, I don't think that's a huge part of why the goblins are disadvantaged; if that's all there was to it, I don't think the situation would have gotten nearly this bad.

Far worse is goblin's naturally violent tendencies, making them less likely to cooperate, and more likely to wage war even when they do. That, along with their explosive population growth, put them at odds with everyone else, starting the cycle that has continued until now.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, we know what Durkon is talking about, but I feel that a more credible response of somebody who never gave the issue any thought, when hearing Durkon saying "His people were treated poor when the world was made", would have been "What are you talking about?".

[...]

Also, maybe Roy did spend some time considering the issue, although he never really spent some time, so the arguments brought by Durkon just rang the bell for him.

Maybe there were history/geography lessons in Fighter College and it's just dawned on him that the gobbos have always lived on ****ty lands
Edit:

Far worse is goblin's naturally violent tendencies

The what now?

[Ionathus]

There's a big difference between believing that the person you've known well for a long time might have motives or behaviors that are not "his" driving him to fight you, and believing that every random creature who attacks you will screaming for your blood is somebody you might be able to talk down.

I sincerely doubt that nobody has ever asked a goblin why he was attacking - if only when the goblins had innocent dirt farmers pinned to the ground and were killing them or torturing them for fun - but the goblins also don't tend to think like Redcloak does. They don't do the whole "because we're starving" explanation - they gloat about how they're stronger, or about how it's "because we can," or don't bother answering.

Now, this is a fantasy setting, so the "crappy lands" the goblinoids live in might be magically useless, not just not-as-easy as the lands the others got, but nothing kept them from moving elsewhere peaceably. Goblins keep making bad choices, too.

That doesn't mean the treatment for this ailment is not to try to, well, treat with them. Offer them freer access to nicer lands, offer to trade with them, offer to interact peaceably if they'll interact peaceably. The trouble with blaming it all on "not asking them" is that it's entirely unreasonable to expect that somebody who is being actively attacked to try to patiently talk down the attacker - repeatedly - until the attacker might deign to give an explanation and then listen to the one he's attacking reason with him.

Roy's whole party would be dead much more often (and probably not in a position to be raised) if they'd tried that with a number of the monsters they've faced.

Heck, Redcloak himself proved how dangerous, stupid, and unlikely to work that is when he cast implosion on Durkon, who was explicitly trying to hear Redcloak's side of the story and offer some sort of bargain.

I think the point is that they never even tried. In OtOoPCs, Roy and Durkon encountered orcs in a fight and immediately started talking, and ultimately parlayed with them. In D&D, just because someone's attacking you doesn't mean you can't have a conversation while defending yourself. Talking is a free action, after

The comic is beautiful, as always, but I feel that the explaination given by Durkon to Roy about why the goblins got the short end of the stick was too terse. It took Durkon a long conversation with a high cleric of the opposite faction, and some discussion with his own god, to start having an understanding of how and why the goblins have been screwed...and yet, Roy seems to be grasping the various implications on the matter in, like, three or four panels.

I mean, we know what Durkon is talking about, but I feel that a more credible response of somebody who never gave the issue any thought, when hearing Durkon saying "His people were treated poor when the world was made", would have been "What are you talking about?".

Although I fully realize that this is just for the matter of comic exposition, to avoid repeating arguments that have already been presented. I guess I spent too much (or not enough) time with the blond guy with the puppet. Also, maybe Roy did spend some time considering the issue, although he never really spent some time, so the arguments brought by Durkon just rang the bell for him.

Emphasis mine. That's my guess, too -- even though Roy never had discussed this with anybody, maybe he'd subconsciously noticed "hey, the only goblinoid settlements are in really desolate areas...I wonder why..." and didn't take it any further until now.

I'd also argue that Durkon's conversation with Redcloak was much more societal and world-spanning, while Durkon's conversation with Roy was just "hey, the goblins might have a point...and we've never bothered to ask them." It's about Roy's personal behavior rather than society at large, so it makes sense that it'll be more terse.

Personally, I don't think that's a huge part of why the goblins are disadvantaged; if that's all there was to it, I don't think the situation would have gotten nearly this bad.

As anyone who's played Age of Empires can tell you, a small numbers/resources disadvantage can quickly snowball into a crushing defeat.

[Taevyr]

That's it, I'm priming the Hand of Slapping.

Bugsby's Sense-Inducing Hand!

[Thermophille]

The what now?

They were literally created as part of a zerg rush strategy. And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.

[Emberlily]

Personally, I don't think that's a huge part of why the goblins are disadvantaged; if that's all there was to it, I don't think the situation would have gotten nearly this bad.

Far worse is goblin's naturally violent tendencies, making them less likely to cooperate, and more likely to wage war even when they do. That, along with their explosive population growth, put them at odds with everyone else, starting the cycle that has continued until now.

Even ignoring the arguments that people in this forum have made against the line of thought that goblins only are in a bad place because they're bad people, do you really think that's what the Giant is trying to convey with the story at this point? Especially after how Durkon and Roy (our heroes and two wise, good people) talked about it?

[JonahFalcon]

The comic is beautiful, as always, but I feel that the explaination given by Durkon to Roy about why the goblins got the short end of the stick was too terse.

Gee, it's like Durkon never completely explains situations to others.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1211.html

[Skull the Troll]

Yeah, but there was no reason for them to start with poorer lands than the humans or dwarves.

There's no reason to think so far that they did start with poorer lands. It was a couple thousand years ago, the Western continent shuffles up every few years. Even Azurite City is only lasted a few decades. They started out with less ability to grow wealth, and a non-cooperative mindset (usually evil alignment) and they ended up losing those first wars for the good lands. Since then the cycle of poverty has continued. That doesn't mean that good races shouldn't give them a chance to do better, but what it would take is an alignment shift by an entire race of usually evil beings to become good/neutral.

Of course, the first time Durkon tried to talk to a goblin about why they were fighting, the goblin answered his offer to peacefully resolve their differences by trying to implode him.

Exactly. Its going to be hard for slavers to suddenly start respecting peoples rights, even if they start being treated more fairly themselves. Even in our world of mostly good people people we have wars over resources and groups of folks that have poor lands.

[Thermophille]

Even ignoring the arguments that people in this forum have made against the line of thought that goblins only are in a bad place because they're bad people, do you really think that's what the Giant is trying to convey with the story at this point? Especially after how Durkon and Roy (our heroes and two wise, good people) talked about it?

Where did I say they're bad/evil for that? If you're trying to draw a real-world parallel, sure, something like natural inclinations rings more of real-world racism, but that's not what I'm trying to do.

I'm just making the point that I don't think the present situation came about solely from goblins spawning on difficult to farm land.

[JonahFalcon]

I wonder if they're setting up a How to Train Your Dragons 2 situation here.

Hiccup learned the hard way that some people, like Drago Bludvist, are too broken to listen to the peaceful solution. Redcloak may be too broken to save or negotiate with.

[Wildstag]

Well, in Roy's defense, it's hard to hold a conversation with someone that dies before their second sentence comes out. He's never really fought a goblin strong enough to last through an entire conversation that wasn't being overshadowed by Xykon's presence.

He can hold conversations with others because they live long enough for a retort. If he wanted replies, he'd actually have to intentionally miss (play-fight) just to get answers.

[Fyraltari]

They were literally created as part of a zerg rush strategy.

So?

And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.

I recommend How the Paladin got his Scar, it's an excellent read and the high point of Good Deeds gone unpunished which is already a great book. In it you'll see two low class hobgoblins who have absolutely no combat ability whatsoever.

[Taevyr]

They were literally created as part of a zerg rush strategy. And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.

Not unreasonable as a working hypothesis, perhaps, but there's nothing in-comic to support it as a reasonable conclusion. Especially taking the hobbo's in How the Paladin Got His Scar into account.

[hroþila]

And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.

We saw hobgoblin non-combatants in HtPGHS. No reason to assume they had any more combat training than the average human commoner.

edit: ninja'd

[Ivrytwr]

Crisis of faith achievement unlocked! Order of the Stick you are cleared to go into battle with questionable motivation.

Always a good time to start thinking, when the other guy is coming at you with an axe.

Great counterpoint Durkon.
Thanks Giant!

[PH7]

To be fair to Roy, from his perspective the goblins aren't (weren't?) working for Redcloak. They were working for Xykon.
Heck, as far back as strip 13, he'd give an angry glare to anyone suggesting they kill sentient creatures just because they have green skin and fangs...

[Jason]

The comic is beautiful, as always, but I feel that the explaination given by Durkon to Roy about why the goblins got the short end of the stick was too terse. It took Durkon a long conversation with a high cleric of the opposite faction, and some discussion with his own god, to start having an understanding of how and why the goblins have been screwed...and yet, Roy seems to be grasping the various implications on the matter in, like, three or four panels.

I mean, we know what Durkon is talking about, but I feel that a more credible response of somebody who never gave the issue any thought, when hearing Durkon saying "His people were treated poor when the world was made", would have been "What are you talking about?".

Although I fully realize that this is just for the matter of comic exposition, to avoid repeating arguments that have already been presented. I guess I spent too much (or not enough) time with the blond guy with the puppet. Also, maybe Roy did spend some time considering the issue, although he never really spent some time, so the arguments brought by Durkon just rang the bell for him.

Thor's and Roy's "well yeah, when you think about it the goblins really are living on the worst land," reaction is the strongest confirmation we've ever had in the comic that there really is something to Redcloak's "everyone else got the good land" gripe. Both the bad guys and the good guys now agree that's the case, so we'll have to accept that it's generally the truth. And Thor seems to agree that it has been the case from the beginning.

[Neoriceisgood]

Durkon's great, team's moral center doing his job absolutely right.

[Riftwolf]

I'm wondering, if Roy had asked the Goblins why, how much information the goblins would have about it. The Goblins of Dorukans Dungeon were enslaved by Xykon, if I remember correctly, and before he showed up they were fully on board with peaceful contact with humans. It's unclear how much of the Plan those goblins knew, but in those early days, it's unclear how much of the Plan anyone knew, including the author.
The Hobgoblins of the Battle of Azure City had an even shakier grasp of why they did what they did, in my opinion. It seemed to boil down to 'because the Supreme Leader said so' and 'because we can'. Further prying might get them to discuss their homeland and stuff from HTPGHS which I've not read, but beyond that I doubt the average grunt on the ground is going to have much of an answer.

[Ruck]

The what now?

It never ends, does it?

[Gallowglass]

I love how tenaciously some posters in this forum still cling to their belief that Redclock is absolutely wrong and that there is no imbalance between the goblins and other races no matter how many comics the Giant posts confirming they are wrong.

[Fyraltari]

There's no reason to think so far that they did start with poorer lands.

Yes there is. Thor admitted it was true on the eleventh panel of last page.

It was a couple thousand years ago, the Western continent shuffles up every few years. Even Azurite City is only lasted a few decades.

You are thinking of the Sapphire Guard. Azure City predates Soon Kim by a large margin. If memory serves, HtPghS established that it used to be one of the main city of a continent-spanning empire centuries ago (hence the mix of asian cultures).

They started out with less ability to grow wealth, and a non-cooperative mindset (usually evil alignment) and they ended up losing those first wars for the good lands. Since then the cycle of poverty has continued. That doesn't mean that good races shouldn't give them a chance to do better, but what it would take is an alignment shift by an entire race of usually evil beings to become good/neutral.

It's easier to be a good person when you don't have to scrap a living hoping some jerk in armor won't massacre your village for something your second-cousin-in-law did.

Even in our world of mostly good people people we have wars over resources and groups of folks that have poor lands.

Funny that reminds me of a word, aligator? Alley gory? Something along those lines...

[Robots]

Woo-hoo, update.

So they're actually discussing this now! It's not every day the hero admits "hey, the villain has a point". And Redcloak totally does have legitimate points, evil as he may be.

Durkon's sarcasm to Roy at the end was funny, though. Got a laugh out of me.

[Some]

Emphasis mine. That's my guess, too -- even though Roy never had discussed this with anybody, maybe he'd subconsciously noticed "hey, the only goblinoid settlements are in really desolate areas...I wonder why..." and didn't take it any further until now.

I dunno if Goblinoid land-quality is really a question to have had.

It's pretty obvious that, in-universe, it's been a matter of military success. This is explicitly discussed in the arc with Elan's dad in the Western Continent, where it's said that the Elves took the fertile lands to the north while other races (including humans and lizardfolk) fight over the relatively barren lands to the south.

That said, races do seem to be portrayed as having differing inclinations toward development. We've seen a lot of examples of communities of different races, where humans/elves/dwarves seem to generally build up settlements, including castles, while goblins/trolls/hobgoblins seem to put up tents and log-walls or occupy pre-existing buildings that fall into disrepair. Apparently these traits hold even on the Western Continent, where humans are largely nomadic in a barren land.

A major unexplained phenomena is that there's somehow an equilibrium between humanoid races. It's unclear how goblins somehow persist if they're really being hunted all of the time.. maybe they mass-respawn, like in an MMORPG?