Chaotic Evil characters with personality traits that play well with a party

[Tanarii]

Idea taken from another thread, going through the random personality traits from backgrounds, looking for combinations that play well with others (a D&D party, even when the character has the Alignment typical but not constantly required trait: Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust. Play well as in will be motivated to work with the party, and able to focus on a party goal, and that'll help keep them in line, instead of being disruptive.

Feel free to comment, add your own from the PHB or other sources, or just make up your own personality traits that work!

Spoiler: Acolyte

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Personality: I see omens in every event and action. The gods try to speak to us, we just need to listen.
Ideal: Change. We must help bring about the changes the gods are constantly working in the world. (Chaotic)
Bond: Everything I do is for the common people.
Flaw: Once I pick a goal, I become obsessed with it to the detriment of everything else in my life.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: Bit of a starry-eyed zealot, always willing to do their deities work to improve the lives of the people by going on quests that remove dangers to civilization, preferably with extreme prejudice. Tends to become overly goal-oriented when on an adventure, means and methods do not bother them.

Spoiler: Charlatan

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Scam: I put on new identities like clothes.
Personality: I have a joke for every occasion, especially occasions where humor is inappropriate.
Ideal: Aspiration. I'm determined to make something ofmyself. (Any). I'm determined to make something of myself. (Any)
Bond: Somewhere out there, I have a child who doesn't know me. I'm making the world better for him or her.
Flaw: I'm always in debt. I spend my ill-gotten gains on decadent luxuries faster than I bring them in.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: Party face/infiltrator. This character will always be in for any quest to help make the world a better place, even if they don't always question the methods. Since they spend money faster than it comes in but want to get ahead in life, they'll also be willing to work on adventures that pay out well or improve their lot.

Spoiler: Criminal

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Speciality: Enforcer
Personality: I always have a plan for what to do when things go wrong.
Ideal: Greed. I will do whatever it takes to become wealthy. (Evil)
Bond: My ill-gotten gains go to support my family.
Flaw: I have a "tell" that reveals when I'm lying.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: An intelligent tactician, if they're not the party leader, they're the one who has the backup plan. In it for the money, but will also do charity quests that keep their family safe, always willing to save the city or the world. Not a nice guy, but very valuable to have on board.

Spoiler: Entertainer

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Routine: Instrumentalist, Singer, Storyteller
Personality: I know a story relevant to almost every situation.
Ideal: Creativity. The world is in need of new ideas and bold action. (Chaotic)
Bond: I idolize a hero of the old tales and measure my deeds against that person's.
Flaw: I'll do anything to win fame and renown.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: Idolizes a genuine Galahad-type, but doesn't really get what made that goodly hero tick. They're here for the sheer adventure! Especially if it involves carnage. They're also pretty good at figuring out solutions, pulled from the old tales.

Spoiler: Folk Hero

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Defining Event: A fey creature gave me a blessing.
Personality: If someone is in trouble, I'm always ready to lend help.
Ideal: Freedom. Tyrants must not be allowed to oppress the people. (Chaotic)
Bond: I protect those who cannot protect themselves.
Flaw: I'm convinced of the significance of my destiny, and blind to my shortcomings and the risk of failure.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: Cursed! Granted their power to help others, they tend to go into a battle fury. So they took it on the road, seeking out quests to direct that. The party just needs to point them at the target, and keep them quietly in the background the rest of the time. Probably will die young.

Spoiler: Guild Artisan

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Guild Business: Calligraphers, scribes, and scriveners
Personality: I always want to know how things work and what makes people tick.
Ideal: Greed. I'm only in it for the money. (Evil)
Bond: I pursue wealth to secure someone's love.
Flaw: I would kill to acquire a noble title.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: A lowly scribe who fell in love above their station. They're trying to get rich to buy a title and set themselves up, and the means don't bother them. Destined for retirement when they're wealthy, and then tragedy when it doesn't work out the way they planned.

Spoiler: Hermit

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Seclusion: I was searching for spiritual enlightenment.
Personality: I am utterly serene, even in the face of disaster.
Ideal: Free Thinking. Inquiry and curiosity are the pillars of progress. (Chaotic)
Bond: My isolation gave me great insight into a great evil that only I can destroy.
Flaw: I harbor dark, bloodthirsty thoughts that my isolation and meditation failed to quell.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: Left the world when dark thoughts started to cause them to lose control. Turns out it wasn't just natural insanity. Probably. Now they're on a mission to save the world. Staying calm is their way of controlling the demons inside, but sometimes they out. Luckily they can usually direct them at the enemy. There is an enemy standing over there, right?

Spoiler: Noble

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Personality: My eloquent flattery makes everyone I talk to feel like the most wonderful and important person in the world.
Ideal: Independence. I must prove that I can handle myself without the coddling of my family. (Chaotic)
Bond: I will face any challenge to win the approval of my family.
Flaw: By my words and actions, I often bring shame to my family.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: This brat is out to prove themselves. They're mostly valuable because they're motivated to work hard, if you can sell it as proving ones worth. But those family connections don't hurt. At least they seem nice. Voted most likely to experience character growth that results in changing alignment.

Spoiler: Outlander

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Origin: Tribal marauder
Personality: I watch over my friends as if they were a litter of newborn pups.
Ideal: Might. The strongest are meant to rule. (Evil)
Bond: I suffer awful visions of a coming disaster and will do anything to prevent it.
Flaw: There's no room for caution in a life lived to the fullest.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: A once boisterous, if perhaps overly violent, raider. Prophetic visions meant putting aside personal ambitions and stepping up to save the world they someday intend to rule. Truly understands the concept of Us vs Them. Whatever you do, don't end up being labeled part of Them!

Spoiler: Sage

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Specialty: Researcher
Personality: There's nothing I like more than a good mystery.
Ideal: Power. Knowledge is the path to power and domination. (Evil)
Bond: I've been searching my whole life for the answer to a certain question.
Flaw: Unlocking an ancient mystery is worth the price of a civilization.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: Dreams of world domination. Always down for an adventure to increase their knowledge, and thus power. May accidentally implode the world. Do not let near any big red buttons! May become the BBEG at the end of the campaign.

Spoiler: Sailor

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Personality: My friends know they can rely on me, no matter what.
Ideal: Mastery. I'm a predator, and the other ships on the sea are my prey. (Evil)
Bond: I'm loyal to my captain first, everything else second.
Flaw: I follow orders, even if I think they're wrong.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: A loyal hound. Will follow even even the dirtiest orders from the party leader without question. Do not let them take charge!

Spoiler: Soldier

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Specialty: Standard Bearer.
Personality: I'm always polite and respectful.
Ideal: Might. In life as in war, the stronger force wins. (Evil)
Bond: Those who fight beside me are those worth dying for.
Flaw: My hatred of my enemies is blind and unreasoning.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: Loves being part of a team! Beneath their polite facade lies a real bastard. If no-one is looking, carves trophies from their enemies to remember their triumphs. Even though their teammates would trust them with their life when the cards are down, still makes them nervous.

Spoiler: Urchin

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Personality: I bluntly say what other people are hinting at or hiding.
Ideal: Retribution. The rich need to be shown what life and death are like in the gutters. (Evil)
Bond: I sponsor an orphanage to keep others from enduring what I was forced to endure.
Flaw: Gold seems like a lot of money to me, and I'll do just about anything for more of it.
Alignment: Chaotic evil (CE). I act with arbitrary violence, spurred by my greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Comments: Street rat, apparently with a heart of coal. In it for the rewards, but refuses to say why they never seem to have any left. Sharp tongued and sensitive about appearing weak. Just make sure their share of the gold is more than they'd get for turning you all in.

(Partly this is for my own fun, and partly it's because I just love the 5e personality system, so I want to see more threads about it.)

[Amechra]

Not done up in the actual personality system, but I have to bring up my current CE character, Zwerrit Humperdink. He's a Fiend Bladelock who (long story short) received his pact after drunkenly challenging a devil to a duel.

He's Chaotic Evil because he's incapable of feeling remorse for killing people. He won't fight people who can't fight back (because it isn't very satisfying), but otherwise? You're fair game. He's a serial killer who happens to be on the party's side, because they have booze and the best fights... and literally does not care about the rest of the plot (I do, he doesn't).

Honestly, the only reason I say that he's Chaotic Evil and not Chaotic Neutral is that he enjoys killing, in the way a normal person enjoys eating a good meal. Part of that is a result of his pact (which also led to him shedding ashes all the time), but most of it's just him. He's a monster, and a pretty fun dude to play.

EDIT: Come to think of it, since his family disowned him... Zwerrit is a literal murderhobo.

[Corran]

Here's one take on the hermit.

Spoiler: Hermit

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Personality: I am utterly serene, even in the face of disaster
Ideal: Power. Solitude and contemplation are paths toward mystical or magical power. (Evil)
Bond: I'm still seeking the enlightenment I pursued in my seclusion, and it still eludes me.
Flaw: I'd risk too much to uncover a lost bit of knowledge.

How it plays: Although the character may never admit that to themselves, the seclusion (hermitage?) did not deliver what it promised (low wisdom score recommended; I am envisioning a wizard whose ambitious research didn't pay off, but that's one of many possibilities). Now they have to make up for all the time that was lost. That's a thought burried deep within the subconscious, and it drives the character in all their decisions. You leave no quests unanswered, no dungeon rooms unexplored, no door unopened. Everything that waits to be discovered, will be discovered. And fast (tone down appropriately if really needed); there is no more time to waste. Curiosity backed up by ambition and a self imposed sense of urgency makes for a character that could please DM's who want their players to explore everything they have prepared for them, and would also fit well in the typical (at least IME) adventuring party.

[Greywander]

I feel like Rick from Rick and Morty is a good example of what a Chaotic Evil character might look like in an otherwise mostly Good party. It helps a lot that Morty serves as a morality pet for him, giving him a reason to occasionally do good things even when he doesn't really care about being a good person.

In D&D terms, a character like this show some restraint (rather than just attacking literally everything) and be willing to work with the party (presumably toward a mutually beneficial goal). They could serve a useful role in a meta perspective by being the guy who shoots first when diplomacy isn't going well, basically the guy who starts combat when it's the best solution even when other characters would have reasons to try and avoid combat.

Really, the proper way to play an Evil character in a Good party is to use it as an opportunity to do bad things when those bad things need to be done (Chaotic probably works best for this because they can get away with being more arbitrary as to when they commit Evil). The party can discuss the situation out of character and agree that it's for the best, and then let the Evil character off their leash. The characters may object, but the players are in agreement. The tricky part is maintaining a reason for them all to be traveling together, while also keeping the Evil character Evil. If they're not really Evil, then it's basically a non-issue anyway. If they are Evil, then you need some good reasons why your Good party is putting up with them.

It's tricky because you need a Chaotic Evil character who is loyal to the party and can show restraint, as well as a party who is willing to look the other way while the Evil character does their thing. That's a pretty specific combination, and you're not going to get the black and white morality that some tables might prefer.

[Tanarii]

Here's one take on the hermit.

Spoiler: Hermit

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Personality: I am utterly serene, even in the face of disaster
Ideal: Power. Solitude and contemplation are paths toward mystical or magical power. (Evil)
Bond: I'm still seeking the enlightenment I pursued in my seclusion, and it still eludes me.
Flaw: I'd risk too much to uncover a lost bit of knowledge.

How it plays: Although the character may never admit that to themselves, the seclusion (hermitage?) did not deliver what it promised (low wisdom score recommended; I am envisioning a wizard whose ambitious research didn't pay off, but that's one of many possibilities). Now they have to make up for all the time that was lost. That's a thought burried deep within the subconscious, and it drives the character in all their decisions. You leave no quests unanswered, no dungeon rooms unexplored, no door unopened. Everything that waits to be discovered, will be discovered. And fast (tone down appropriately if really needed); there is no more time to waste. Curiosity backed up by ambition and a self imposed sense of urgency makes for a character that could please DM's who want their players to explore everything they have prepared for them, and would also fit well in the typical (at least IME) adventuring party.

I like it. The utterly serene personality is an interesting contrast to the failure to find enlightenment and the driven nature of the character.

That's definitely the most interesting of the personality traits for a CE Hermit just because of the seeming contrast with the typical but not constantly required associated behavior. I used it too.

Really, the proper way to play an Evil character in a Good party is to use it as an opportunity to do bad things when those bad things need to be done (Chaotic probably works best for this because they can get away with being more arbitrary as to when they commit Evil).

I'm not assuming the party is good. Just functional as a group/team, and not all CE, or even necessarily LE or NE.

[Unoriginal]

Here are my takes, with some of them for either alternate backgrounds or from backgrounds not in the PHB.

[Work In Progress]

Spoiler: Folk Hero

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Defining Event: Recruited into a lord's army, I rose to leadership and was commended for my heroism.
Personality Trait: If someone is in trouble, I'm always ready to lend help.
Ideal: Might. If I become strong, I can take what I want – what I deserve. (Evil)
Bond: A proud noble once gave me a horrible beating, and I will take my revenge on any bully I encounter.
Flaw: Secretly, I believe that things would be better if I were a tyrant lording over the land.

Sometime, you do everything right, and life still chokeslams you into next week. This character heroically led troops to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, but when presented to the local ruler for reward, all they got was a savage beating for upstaging the lord. Left for dead and embittered by the experience, the character now ruminates the unfairness of it all and how different things would be if they were the one in charge, while taking their anger out on any wannabe-oppressor that cross their path. A pretty helpful teammate to have around, despite their motivations.

[Lunali]

A lot of these feel NE, LE, CN or even CG. A CE character should be self serving and reactionary, not altruistic or a great planner.

[da newt]

I guess it really depends on what you define as CHAOTIC EVIL.

For me, CE and works with others are contradictions. CE is the epitome of selfish and zero impulse control, full of hate and violence toward everyone.

If I want to play a PC who gives zero fox, I label them NEUTRAL so that they are unbound by morality.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

A lot of these feel NE, LE, CN or even CG. A CE character should be self serving and reactionary, not altruistic or a great planner.

Agreed, though that might be due to the natural limitations the system imposes on characters that wouldn't play well with a group, as well as the difficulty in defining what is evil, to say nothing of distinguishing it into law/neutral/chaos (though that is, in part, a general consequence of alignment as a system in the first place, but I don't mind that).

I think a Chaotic Evil character is, by necessity, craven, cowardly, self-serving, rebellious, rude, callous, impulsive, mercenary, and/or dishonest. I think the biggest detraction from that kind of characterization is through the Bonds, which ties back to how the system itself kind of limits how 'evil' one can be. CE is, kind of by definition, the one type of character who is least likely to have any sort of bond, so I think that any bonds a CE character would have would need to be either incredibly personal, or warped in some way.

By personal, maybe something like a grudge, or a need to 'get back' at the system, or a Machiavellian determination to acquire something, or a delusion/belief in their own grandeur (like thinking of themselves as the next Napoleon). If a bond is interpersonal or tied to other people, it shouldn't be reliant on honor or duty or any of that, instead it should be based more on selfishness. If they owe someone a debt, then they would make it a point to not pay them back, or to capitalize on that person's good will, or they would feel slighted that someone pitied them and want to get revenge. If they are tied to something (like an institution or a group), it would be reluctantly, or due to ulterior motives - maybe they are cursed, or have a debt they are magically bound to, or something. I don't see a CE character willingly supporting other people if there isn't something in it for them.

[hamishspence]

A moderately easy way - start with designing a CG personality, and then corrupt them a bit.

So - they're a brave, heroic, fighter for freedom - but, they've become unacceptably cruel as well. The kind of guy who tortures their enemies, and doesn't care at all about the "rules of war" - faking surrenders, using cruel weaponry, and so forth.

[Unoriginal]

You don't have to hate the whole world and want to fight everything and be unable to function on a team or to plan to be chaotic evil.

Even Demons can work together, and for each other. The Demon Princes have armies and generals. Gra'azt has accountants counting his treasures. Yeenoguh's signature creations live in packs. Baphomet and Fraz Ulbu play long cons to trick people into joining their cult. Orcus makes deals with mortals. And it's mentioned most Demons consider eating souls to be abhorrant (even if there are some Demons ready to trample this taboo with feet and hooves).

Those are Demons, the literal personifications of the concept of malevolent chaos and chaotic malevolence.

A mortal likely won't go to the extreme Demons go. You can be chaotic evil because you make a living scavenging battlefields and you let some wounded that might have recovered if you helped die in the filth, for example.

[Tanarii]

Here are my takes, with some of them for either alternate backgrounds or from backgrounds not in the PHB.

[Work In Progress]

Spoiler: Folk Hero

Show

Defining Event: Recruited into a lord's army, I rose to leadership and was commended for my heroism.
Personality Trait: If someone is in trouble, I'm always ready to lend help.
Ideal: Might. If I become strong, I can take what I want – what I deserve. (Evil)
Bond: A proud noble once gave me a horrible beating, and I will take my revenge on any bully I encounter.
Flaw: Secretly, I believe that things would be better if I were a tyrant lording over the land.

Sometime, you do everything right, and life still chokeslams you into next week. This character heroically led troops to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, but when presented to the local ruler for reward, all they got was a savage beating for upstaging the lord. Left for dead and embittered by the experience, the character now ruminates the unfairness of it all and how different things would be if they were the one in charge, while taking their anger out on any wannabe-oppressor that cross their path. A pretty helpful teammate to have around, despite their motivations.

Have you been reading the Stormlight Archive by Sanderson? sounds like Kaladin's backstory.

A lot of these feel NE, LE, CN or even CG. A CE character should be self serving and reactionary, not altruistic or a great planner.

No, because the player has written down CE typical but not constantly required associated behavior, along with the listed personality, ideal, bond and flaw, and is using all that when making decisions. Not the NE, LE, CN or even CG associated behavior, combined with the traits listed.

Maybe I need to include the associated behavior with each trait block, because it's part of each one. In fact, I think I'll go make that edit. (And done)

I guess it really depends on what you define as CHAOTIC EVIL.

Here is the typical, but not constantly required, associated behavior:
Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust.

Also each character has their own spin on it because of their Ideal. And then their Personality, Bond and Flaw round out the character with specifics that either align or contradict in specific situations or decision making.

For me, CE and works with others are contradictions. CE is the epitome of selfish and zero impulse control, full of hate and violence toward everyone.

I think a Chaotic Evil character is, by necessity, craven, cowardly, self-serving, rebellious, rude, callous, impulsive, mercenary, and/or dishonest.

Thats nice, but it's not what the PHB says.

[Zetakya]

Here's one take on the hermit.

Spoiler: Hermit

Show

Personality: I am utterly serene, even in the face of disaster
Ideal: Power. Solitude and contemplation are paths toward mystical or magical power. (Evil)
Bond: I'm still seeking the enlightenment I pursued in my seclusion, and it still eludes me.
Flaw: I'd risk too much to uncover a lost bit of knowledge.

How it plays: Although the character may never admit that to themselves, the seclusion (hermitage?) did not deliver what it promised (low wisdom score recommended; I am envisioning a wizard whose ambitious research didn't pay off, but that's one of many possibilities). Now they have to make up for all the time that was lost. That's a thought burried deep within the subconscious, and it drives the character in all their decisions. You leave no quests unanswered, no dungeon rooms unexplored, no door unopened. Everything that waits to be discovered, will be discovered. And fast (tone down appropriately if really needed); there is no more time to waste. Curiosity backed up by ambition and a self imposed sense of urgency makes for a character that could please DM's who want their players to explore everything they have prepared for them, and would also fit well in the typical (at least IME) adventuring party.

This screams "Lore Bard" to me, but I have a certain fondness for Bards.

[da newt]

Thats nice, but it's not what the PHB says.[/QUOTE]

What do you believe the PHB means by "Chaotic Evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust." and Chaotic means anti-society / anti-order, and Evil means anti-morality?

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

I have plans to play a character soon that is chaotic evil, but is both magically compelled to obey the party (a party member will have an artifact housing their soul; this is something I'm working out with the DM. If they don't play ball, the artifact gets dropped in the ocean or down a volcano or etc.) and wants to help them because the BBEG personally put them in a harmless demiplane for decades, so they're willing to get along with whoever they have to and make nice as much as they can in order to get their revenge.

It's not exactly "personality traits", but it does work in terms of motivation.

[Tanarii]

Thats nice, but it's not what the PHB says.

What do you believe the PHB means by "Chaotic Evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust." and Chaotic means anti-society / anti-order, and Evil means anti-morality?

It means what it says. It certainly doesn't mean zero impulse control, nor does it mean full of hate and violence towards everyone. Nor does it mean: all the time, under every circumstance. Characters are not one dimensional caricatures of their alignment, always acting like the associated behavior. The PHB is very clear on that. At the minimum, they have other personality traits that may take precedence in certain situations.

[Zetakya]

It means what it says. It certainly doesn't mean zero impulse control, nor does it mean full of hate and violence towards everyone. Nor does it mean: all the time, under every circumstance. Characters are not one dimensional caricatures of their alignment, always acting like it. At the minimum, they have other personality traits that make take precedence in certain situations.

Exactly this. Chaotic Evil characters can be perfectly capable of having friends, telling jokes, and co-operating with others. They aren't (necessarily) mindless blood reavers.

They aren't perfect party members - they'll likely never be the ones to catch a bullet to save an ally, and in fact they may dive out of the way of fire and expose an ally to save themselves - but they can make alliances for specific purposes and understand the value of teamwork in general. At least, if their INT and WIS are high enough they should...

Chaotic Evil includes the Blood Reaver types, but it isn't exclusively populated by them.

[da newt]

Oh - now I understand. Your CE PC is only CE sometimes / a little bit - it's not a defining characteristic of who they are, it's a small piece of flavor no more defining than their background or any of the personality traits or ideals/bonds/flaws.

I think that's where we are talking past each other with little understanding. I've always thought of ALIGNMENT as the most significant overarching characteristic of who any PC really is - I think of it as core, you use it as flavor.

[Unoriginal]

Oh - now I understand. Your CE PC is only CE sometimes / a little bit - it's not a defining characteristic of who they are, it's a small piece of flavor no more defining than their background or any of the personality traits or ideals/bonds/flaws.

I think that's where we are talking past each other with little understanding. I've always thought of ALIGNMENT as the most significant overarching characteristic of who any PC really is - I think of it as core, you use it as flavor.

Well that's how 5e defines alignment.

[Tanarii]

Oh - now I understand. Your CE PC is only CE sometimes / a little bit - it's not a defining characteristic of who they are, it's a small piece of flavor no more defining than their background or any of the personality traits or ideals/bonds/flaws.

I think that's where we are talking past each other with little understanding. I've always thought of ALIGNMENT as the most significant overarching characteristic of who any PC really is - I think of it as core, you use it as flavor.

I think of it as typically the underlying behavior when no other overriding personality factors come into play for specific situations. Those other personality factors may be in conflict with, enhance, or other wise modify/be modified by the typical associated behavior.

IMO that fits the typical, but possibly varying and not necessarily consistent, associated behavior the PHB specifies.

Whereas your method seems to be that all personality traits must be a subset of the associated behavior. That makes it both consistent and non-varying.

[Lunali]

I think of it as typically the underlying behavior when no other overriding personality factors come into play for specific situations. Those other personality factors may be in conflict with, enhance, or other wise modify/be modified by the typical associated behavior.

IMO that fits the typical, but possibly varying and not necessarily consistent, associated behavior the PHB specifies.

Whereas your method seems to be that all personality traits must be a subset of the associated behavior. That makes it both consistent and non-varying.

Alignment is the sum total of a character's behavior, it's the effect rather than the cause. If the majority of your character's behavior is defined by their personality traits, their alignment will be heavily affected by their traits.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Thats nice, but it's not what the PHB says.

Well the PHB gives jack in terms of explanation.

It means what it says. It certainly doesn't mean zero impulse control, nor does it mean full of hate and violence towards everyone. Nor does it mean: all the time, under every circumstance. Characters are not one dimensional caricatures of their alignment, always acting like the associated behavior. The PHB is very clear on that. At the minimum, they have other personality traits that may take precedence in certain situations.

Though I don't see why you would want to be so specific about the definition when you already don't want to adhere to it all that much?

Alignment is the sum total of a character's behavior, it's the effect rather than the cause. If the majority of your character's behavior is defined by their personality traits, their alignment will be heavily affected by their traits.

Well, technically, it's both effect and cause. Creatures are defined as being predisposed to a certain alignment, though alignment can also be used in a descriptive sense regarding specific characters.

[Tanarii]

Alignment is the sum total of a character's behavior, it's the effect rather than the cause. If the majority of your character's behavior is defined by their personality traits, their alignment will be heavily affected by their traits.

I mean, play it that way if you want, but nothing says it must be used that way. And certainly it makes picking an alignment, then playing it, much harder.

Though I don't see why you would want to be so specific about the definition when you already don't want to adhere to it all that much?

Nothing I'm doing makes adhering to it hard. It makes full use of it, while still syncing up with the PHB.

[Damon_Tor]

On the one hand, there's absolutely no reason you can't play a guy as a sort of "pitbull" archetype. He finds great joy in murder, but he has certain people he's very protective of and loves deeply. Said individuals can keep his impulses in check to a point.

So maybe as a kid the CE guy was sold into slavery and raised to be a pit fighter and he grew to love it, becoming really good at it as he became an adult. But he also loved his master, and his master's whole family, and when his master finally died the CE pit fighter slave was freed by his estate. At loose ends, he set out to become a murderhobo in the truest sense of the term. His master's daughter, however, is some variety of good, and recognizes that the CE guy is a danger to himself and others. But he's like a brother to her and she doesn't want him dead or in prison, so she comes with him to try and direct his bloodlust into useful directions.

On the other hand, a highly-intelligent CE character would probably not choose to present as CE. He'll break any promise, betray any ally, lie through his teeth and kill anyone who crosses him... but discretely. Petyr Baelish from A Song of Ice and Fire is this sort of character: "Chaos is a ladder", and he'll tear down the system to create advantages for himself. As a PC this sort of CE character would be prevented from being disruptive by having goals that are in alignment with the party's, while the rest of the players would have to cooperate by not inventing reasons to look too hard into what the CE mastermind is up to.

[Gryndle]

Oh - now I understand. Your CE PC is only CE sometimes / a little bit - it's not a defining characteristic of who they are, it's a small piece of flavor no more defining than their background or any of the personality traits or ideals/bonds/flaws.

I think that's where we are talking past each other with little understanding. I've always thought of ALIGNMENT as the most significant overarching characteristic of who any PC really is - I think of it as core, you use it as flavor.

It really kinda cannot work that way. If it did there would only ever be 9 possible PC personalities; the best you could hope for was mild variations on a theme.

All that is really necessary for any of the evil alignments, including and maybe especially CE is to be needlessly cruel, violent, selfish or greedy (and you really only need a strong affinity for one of those to qualify).

Being CE is not the same as being a sociopath who has no positive emotions. Its entirely possible for an evil character to like, love and even be loyal to someone or something else. They can still have feelings, attachments, relationships. Being CE just means when push come to shove their particular vice has more emotional weight than their feelings towards society or morality.

Alignment (a flawed system to begin with) is meant to be a descriptive trait not a hamstringing, defining feature that locks each pc/npc into one of 9 possible types of people.

[JackPhoenix]

On the other hand, a highly-intelligent CE character would probably not choose to present as CE. He'll break any promise, betray any ally, lie through his teeth and kill anyone who crosses him... but discretely. Petyr Baelish from A Song of Ice and Fire is this sort of character: "Chaos is a ladder", and he'll tear down the system to create advantages for himself. As a PC this sort of CE character would be prevented from being disruptive by having goals that are in alignment with the party's, while the rest of the players would have to cooperate by not inventing reasons to look too hard into what the CE mastermind is up to.

Not with how 5e describes CE. The defining trait of CE alignment is arbitrary violence, and the Littlefinger is definitely not into that. The Mountain and his merry band of psychopaths, Ramsay Bolton or Joffrey fit that much better, Baelish fits "do whatever he can get away with, without compassion or qualms (NE)" more. So does Tywin Lannister... he present himself as following rules, and certainly expects it from others, but breaks them anytime he can get away with it.

[hamishspence]

Petyr does use violence a lot though. He grabs Ned and holds a knife to his throat. He murders the guy who rescues Sansa on his orders. He shoves his wife out of the Moon Door.


It's the "arbitrary" bit that's trickier.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I have a chaotic Evil Unseelie Satyr pc who works with the party because she feels as though her calling is to fight the biggest threats there are to offer. People she deems too weak are a waste of time.

[Lunali]

On the other hand, a highly-intelligent CE character would probably not choose to present as CE. He'll break any promise, betray any ally, lie through his teeth and kill anyone who crosses him... but discretely. Petyr Baelish from A Song of Ice and Fire is this sort of character: "Chaos is a ladder", and he'll tear down the system to create advantages for himself. As a PC this sort of CE character would be prevented from being disruptive by having goals that are in alignment with the party's, while the rest of the players would have to cooperate by not inventing reasons to look too hard into what the CE mastermind is up to.

Being foreword thinking enough to pretend not to be CE means you probably aren't CE. If you're typically weighing the consequences of your actions before acting you're probably neutral or lawful. A chaotic character will act first and then try to manipulate perceptions after the fact. A CE "mastermind" is typically a combination of being lucky and good at telling a story to fit the facts.

[Tanarii]

I have to say the hardest one to write was the Urchin. The only redeeming quality personality trait for an otherwise arbitrarily violent Urchin are "fight to defend my city" and supporting an orphanage. Neither of which are easy to parlay into something that lead to a character being motivated to go adventure. Most of the others have something that encourages them to go direct that violent nature at the party enemies, which is something the party should be in favor of. Either loot or directly acquiring magical power, or some reason to make the world safer from typical PC enemies. Defend the city would work, but only if the adventures are in the vicinity of the city, or directly influence the city. Ie it wouldn't work for a wandering party as well. So I went with orphanages as an indirect loot incentive.

Probably my two favorite ones to play would be the Cursed Folk Hero and the (probably) Insane Hermit.

The Spoiled Noble out to prove himself would be great for a redemption arc character, changing alignment over time to Chaotic Neutral and then Chaotic Good.

On the one hand, there's absolutely no reason you can't play a guy as a sort of "pitbull" archetype. He finds great joy in murder, but he has certain people he's very protective of and loves deeply. Said individuals can keep his impulses in check to a point.

That's what I was going for with the Sailor and Soldier characters.