MCU Phase 4 Trailer

[LaZodiac]

Who tattoos their kid's mouth?

That seems like child abuse.

They tattoo the area under the bottom lip, and it's not even that intrusive it's just a vibranium ink that leaves no real mark unless exposed to air, if I recall. It's basically nothing.

[Rater202]

They tattoo the area under the bottom lip, and it's not even that intrusive it's just a vibranium ink that leaves no real mark unless exposed to air, if I recall. It's basically nothing.

Yeah, but tattoo application can be painful.

And the inner lip is sensitive. There's a reason why babies put things in their mouths, the lips are more sensitive to touch than the fingers

And children tend to be particularly sensitive to pain.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah, but tattoo application can be painful.

And the inner lip is sensitive. There's a reason why babies put things in their mouths, the lips are more sensitive to touch than the fingers

And children tend to be particularly sensitive to pain.

And it's entirely likely that Wakandan medical science accounts for that.

[Ramza00]

Yeah, but tattoo application can be painful.

No-Prizes this for we never saw how the tattoo is applied and thus we are bringing in our biases.

The No-Prize answer is there is a magic camera using wakanda tech that can be used to create a tattoo with no pain, and the tattoo is hidden for it is inside the lips / mouth.

-----

Now that RITUAL SCARRING the same person does all the time, to remember each person he killed. I bet those things hurt far more than the magic No-Prize tattoo

Not ink, you created hard skin / scar as a permanent bump on your chest and abs.

[Tyndmyr]

Now that RITUAL SCARRING the same person does all the time, to remember each person he killed. I bet those things hurt far more than the magic No-Prize tattoo

Not ink, you created hard skin / scar as a permanent bump on your chest and abs.

And that kind of body modification would pretty straightforwardly get you kicked out of whatever special ops unit he was supposedly in. Yknow, if the wanton bloodlust and inability to properly handle a firearm didn't.

That bit of backstory was probably the weakest part of the film.

[LaZodiac]

And that kind of body modification would pretty straightforwardly get you kicked out of whatever special ops unit he was supposedly in. Yknow, if the wanton bloodlust and inability to properly handle a firearm didn't.

That bit of backstory was probably the weakest part of the film.

He was part of a secret extreme kill squad that infiltrated nations and destroyed them from the inside out. Nothing Killmonger did re scarification of his body or wanton blood lust is out of hand for this group.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rater202
Yeah, but tattoo application can be painful.

Originally Posted by LaZodiac
And it's entirely likely that Wakandan medical science accounts for that.

This. Seems pretty sure that Wakanda has anesthetics.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
The No-Prize answer….

Rather than using an actual tattoo, it makes more sense that the hyperadvanced Wakandans would splice in a pattern of bioluminescent genes for that one portion of the inner lip.

No tattooing, no pain, just a permanently luminescent section of tissue.

[Psyren]

And that kind of body modification would pretty straightforwardly get you kicked out of whatever special ops unit he was supposedly in. Yknow, if the wanton bloodlust and inability to properly handle a firearm didn't.

That bit of backstory was probably the weakest part of the film.

Nah, it was the most realistic part. This is classic "governing body turns a blind eye to the unstable and extreme killer operative who gets messy results" territory that is a common trope in fiction - see also Saren Arterius, Gregor Clegane, Solf Kimblee, Zaraki Kenpachi, etc etc.

If they didn't kick him out for the wanton murdering, they definitely didn't care about how he chose to memorialize it either. Do you truly think that not a single one of those marks on his body was for a civilian or bystander, and furthermore that his black ops superiors didn't know that?

He was part of a secret extreme kill squad that infiltrated nations and destroyed them from the inside out. Nothing Killmonger did re scarification of his body or wanton blood lust is out of hand for this group.

This. (Tyndmyr, do you even tropes? )

[Ramza00]

And that kind of body modification would pretty straightforwardly get you kicked out of whatever special ops unit he was supposedly in. Yknow, if the wanton bloodlust and inability to properly handle a firearm didn't.

That bit of backstory was probably the weakest part of the film.

In traditional military service that is at least 90% of the US Armed Forces the answer is yes.

Killmonger was not part of that group. He was part of the group who did off the books tasks that toppled governments. I understand Sovereign Nations are not supposed to do war crimes and topple governments of other nations but I think it literally happens in our real life. And it definitely happens in fiction per the fictional hobbit CIA guy / Agent Everett Kenneth Ross / Martin Freeman is not lying when he says things like this...

ROSS: He's not a Wakandan . He's one of ours.
[LATER]
ROSS: Eric Stevens . Graduated Annapolis age 19 . MIT for grad school . Joined the SEALs and went to Afghanistan where he racked up confirmed kills like it was a video game. They call him Killmonger . He joined a JSOC ghost unit. Now these guys are serious . They will drop off the grid so they can commit assassinations and take down governments .
[LATER]
ROSS: Of course he did . That's what he was trained to do. His unit used to work with the CIA to destabilize foreign countries. They would always strike at transitions of power ... like an election year or the death of a monarch. You get control of government, the military …
[T’Challa and Shuri take over the conversation]

Ross at 3 different scenes makes the same point. The USA CIA in the MCU crafted Killmonger.

CIA did the surveying, JSOC ghost unit (with Killmonger in that) did the job.

[Trafalgar]

Ross at 3 different scenes makes the same point. The USA CIA in the MCU crafted Killmonger.

CIA did the surveying, JSOC ghost unit (with Killmonger in that) did the job.

I wonder if the JSOC/CIA units were connected to the Hydra "parasite" group within Shield in The Winter Soldier. It makes sense to me that Hydra would have spread into other groups in the US covert community.

[Ramza00]

I wonder if the JSOC/CIA units were connected to the Hydra "parasite" group within Shield in The Winter Soldier. It makes sense to me that Hydra would have spread into other groups in the US covert community.

Possibly, but this urge to put the lampshade on the lamp opens up another problem

It turns all wickedness in the fictional MCU history, which is supposed to mirrors our history of the actual concrete world, into the action of an elite cabal. It is the scapegoat urge where all problems of the world is due to 1, 100, maybe a myriad (10,000) evil men and women.

Thanks but I hate it ^{feel free to have opinions contrary to my own}

for it is the literal mirror opposite of Thomas Carlyle's Great Man Theory of History, all human agency both kind actions and wicked actions are responsible for a few men, no one else has agency.

Wait am I talking about Loki TV show here

So I hope not, I hope we are not going to use scapegoats and demons to explain away the problem of evil in our MCU.

[Tyndmyr]

for it is the literal mirror opposite of Thomas Carlyle's Great Man Theory of History, all human agency both kind actions and wicked actions are responsible for a few men, no one else has agency.

That conceit perhaps makes more sense in a world with literal superpowers. That's the kind of universe that gives some humans more agency than others.

In traditional military service that is at least 90% of the US Armed Forces the answer is yes.

Killmonger was not part of that group. He was part of the group who did off the books tasks that toppled governments. I understand Sovereign Nations are not supposed to do war crimes and topple governments of other nations but I think it literally happens in our real life. And it definitely happens in fiction per the fictional hobbit CIA guy / Agent Everett Kenneth Ross / Martin Freeman is not lying when he says things like this...

I spent eight years in the military, I'm aware of how it works.

Wanton bloodlust, extreme body modification, and inability to handle a firearm are definitely disqualifying for spec ops.

This. (Tyndmyr, do you even tropes? )

Edit: Fair, I get it's a trope. That said, the lack of decent weapon handling was still a huge issue. Generally one portrays someone with this trope as at least proficient with weapons.

[Ramza00]

That conceit perhaps makes more sense in a world with literal superpowers. That's the kind of universe that gives some humans more agency than others.

We are not talking about the part of the MCU that had superheroes pre Iron Man. Saying Hydra* did real world events does not sit well with me.. The pre Iron Man stuff world supposedly mirrors our own.

*I am not talking about the Winter Soldier assassinations.

I am now dropping this due to rules about of this boards about discussing politics and real world events. I will not elaborate further.

[Tyndmyr]

We are not talking about the part of the MCU that had superheroes pre Iron Man. Saying Hydra* did real world events does not sit well with me.. The pre Iron Man stuff world supposedly mirrors our own.

Only loosely. You still have Cap doin' stuff earlier, WW2 diverges decently. There's also Pym doing stuff historically in his film, and the elder Stark definitely had some involvement. Winter Soldier wasn't really a stretch there. It'd be odd for everything to unfold *exactly* the same way given Cap's actions.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
That said, the lack of decent weapon handling was still a huge issue. Generally one portrays someone with this trope as at least proficient with weapons.

I didn't pick up on this myself, but I can imagine you're more aware of this issue. Were there any scenes in particular where this was especially glaring?

[Psyren]

He turns a pistol sideways at one point, clearly this is evidence that he lacks basic proficiency.

[Tyndmyr]

He turns a pistol sideways at one point, clearly this is evidence that he lacks basic proficiency.

Indeed. That's a showy thing, often associated with street gangs. It is the kind of thing done by a person who considers possession of a 9mm pistol something to show off, rather than an everyday thing.

Anyone with firearms training will either hold the pistol vertically, or, rarely, canted at a 45 degree angle.

He doesn't really come across as military at all. He doesn't use military slang, have military mannerisms, use military tactics, wear military clothing, and in many cases, his portrayal is directly contradictory to his backstory as given. Obviously nobody expects perfection from movies, but you generally at least toss a few things out that folks associate with the military when you portray a character as ex-mil.

[Psyren]

Indeed.

In case it wasn't clear, I was mocking the rigidity of this reading.

[Cikomyr2]

Indeed. That's a showy thing, often associated with street gangs. It is the kind of thing done by a person who considers possession of a 9mm pistol something to show off, rather than an everyday thing.

Anyone with firearms training will either hold the pistol vertically, or, rarely, canted at a 45 degree angle.

He doesn't really come across as military at all. He doesn't use military slang, have military mannerisms, use military tactics, wear military clothing, and in many cases, his portrayal is directly contradictory to his backstory as given. Obviously nobody expects perfection from movies, but you generally at least toss a few things out that folks associate with the military when you portray a character as ex-mil.

Unless the point of holding the gun sideways was to make a show of it. More about intimidation and establishing a theme than actual accuracy.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Wanton bloodlust, extreme body modification, and inability to handle a firearm are definitely disqualifying for spec ops.

Just watching Black Panther again, and I have the feeling that Killmonger was indeed kicked out of his JSOC unit.

Agent Ross describes Killmonger’s education and career path, but pointedly doesn’t say how Killmonger went from JSOC work to museum heists involving vibranium.

Later in the throne room, Shuri describes him as an “American black operative and mercenary,” so it does seem likely that there was some unpleasant parting of the ways with JSOC over his conduct. It may have been messy and/or potentially embarrassing, so it makes sense that Ross wouldn’t dwell on that part.

Originally Posted by Ramza00
The USA CIA in the MCU crafted Killmonger.

As for this, I’d say it’s pretty clear that Killmonger used the CIA as just one more stepping stone on his trajectory to the Wakandan throne. He took what he needed from them and moved on.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
He doesn't really come across as military at all.

Agreed. Whatever persona he adopted while in military service, he seems to have shed it like another mask.

[Ramza00]

As for this, I’d say it’s pretty clear that Killmonger used the CIA as just one more stepping stone on his trajectory to the Wakandan throne. He took what he needed from them and moved on.

Ross in the text I literally quoted from the movie, in 3 different scenes, disagrees with you.

Of course Killmonger used the training he learned for his own goals, but per Ross in the scenes I quoted the CIA trained his unit (not just Killmonger) to do coups.

(Something illegal under international law, yet also happens all the time.)

[Psyren]

I don't think Killmonger having been trained to be a bastard by a shady black ops military unit that's more willing to look the other way when he engages in brutal behavior than the standard armed forces, and then going on to be beyond the pale enough that he might be kicked out of said unit, are mutually exclusive possibilities. At the end of the day he's a supervillain.

With that said, I also think it's ridiculous to imply that a black man holding a gun sideways in one scene means he's unprofessional.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ramza00
…per Ross in the scenes I quoted the CIA trained his unit (not just Killmonger) to [take down governments]…

Yes. That’s not mutually exclusive with Killmonger later being kicked out of his unit for personal issues.

He was trained in the JSOC unit, and he may or may not have participated in the sort of operations that Ross describes. But receiving that training doesn’t mean he couldn’t have been taken off the roster at some point, possibly for his conduct during one of those ops.

[Trafalgar]

He doesn't really come across as military at all. He doesn't use military slang, have military mannerisms, use military tactics, wear military clothing, and in many cases, his portrayal is directly contradictory to his backstory as given. Obviously nobody expects perfection from movies, but you generally at least toss a few things out that folks associate with the military when you portray a character as ex-mil.

As a lifer in the military, I will tell you it's not always easy to tell if someone's in the military when they are out of uniform. People in the military are mostly normal people. Many people in the military don't like to advertise when they are off duty. Certain spec op units (Seal Team 6, Delta force) relax grooming standards with the intention of making members harder to identify. Many of my friends who have gotten out let their beards and hair grow out because its the first time in years they could make that decision for themselves.

I have also met people who wear Navy Seal T-Shirts and try to talk like they are in but if you push them on it, you discover they never even walked into a recruiting office. Look up "Stolen Valor" on youtube and you will find thousand of videos on this. There is nothing about Killmonger's portrayal that immediately signals he is or is not prior military. In fact, I would find it weird if he wore a unit T-Shirt and used a lot of military buzzwords.

He also has a masters from MIT but no one is saying "I didn't see his class ring" or "he doesn't talk like an MIT Grad".

Though the way he holds a pistol did annoy me but no more than the way most Hollywood movies handle firearms. Obviously Michael B. Jordan didn't go to any trainers like Keanu Reeves did for "John Wick".

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
People in the military are mostly normal people. Many people in the military don't like to advertise when they are off duty. Certain spec op units (Seal Team 6, Delta force) relax grooming standards with the intention of making members harder to identify.

Which, by contrast, makes Killmonger’s practice of scarring his body for each kill seem all the more bizarre and unprofessional.

This goes for soldiers in general, and especially for a special ops unit, who as you say are supposed to be difficult to identify. Hundreds of kill scars would seem to defeat the purpose.

[Psyren]

Which, by contrast, makes Killmonger’s practice of scarring his body for each kill seem all the more bizarre and unprofessional.

This goes for soldiers in general, and especially for a special ops unit, who as you say are supposed to be difficult to identify. Hundreds of kill scars would seem to defeat the purpose.

Because I'm sure he's constantly taking his shirt off on missions. Kevlar, what's that?

[Trafalgar]

Which, by contrast, makes Killmonger’s practice of scarring his body for each kill seem all the more bizarre and unprofessional.

This goes for soldiers in general, and especially for a special ops unit, who as you say are supposed to be difficult to identify. Hundreds of kill scars would seem to defeat the purpose.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. Statement 1) Killmonger scars himself, which is something a soldier wouldn't do. Statement 2) Killmonger's scars makes him easier to identify as a soldier.

We don't know when he did the scars, he could have done them after he was discharged. Those kind of scars take time, it's not like he stopped mid battle to do it and let it heal for a month. They are all identical which indicates they were probably done at once.

The scars are not that different from tattoos which are pretty common in the military. I knew an O5 who wore long sleeves all the time. I worked with him a while before I figured out why. He was prior enlisted and had his arms all tatted up so he hid them from the other officers. but as long as he wore long sleeves, no one knew. You don't even see Killmonger's scars until 1/3 of the way through the movie for exactly this reason.

I have a lot of problems with this movie, mainly the CGI in the final battle and some lazy writing. But Killmonger as prior military is no worse than military portrayals in many other movies.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
Statement 1) Killmonger scars himself, which is something a soldier wouldn't do. Statement 2) Killmonger's scars makes him easier to identify as a soldier.

Not quite. Killmonger’s scars make him easier to identify as a unique individual, which then makes it easier to connect him with special ops activities.

Also, I’d say that there’s a strong difference between tattoos and this sort of scarification. Tattoos are widespread and generally accepted in modern American culture, but massive scarification isn’t.

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
We don't know when he did the scars, he could have done them after he was discharged.

This makes sense, although it’s also possible he started scarring himself and was discharged for that reason—and then went all-in on the scarring afterward. That would certainly explain their uniformity as well as his discharge, especially if the initial scarification was part of a broader pattern of aberrant or unprofessional behavior.

I’d thought I didn’t need to see any more of Killmonger, but I have to admit, I’m interested in the details of his transition between JSOC and mercenary, in large part because the movie glosses over that completely.

Originally Posted by Trafalgar
I have a lot of problems with this movie, mainly the CGI in the final battle and some lazy writing.

The CGI never occurred to me as an issue, but the final one-on-one between Black Panther and Killmonger is probably my least favorite part of the movie, for a number of reasons.

And what in particular do you mean by lazy writing?

[Psyren]

I’d thought I didn’t need to see any more of Killmonger, but I have to admit, I’m interested in the details of his transition between JSOC and mercenary, in large part because the movie glosses over that completely.

"What If" will apparently have more Killmonger so you may get your wish.

The CGI never occurred to me as an issue, but the final one-on-one between Black Panther and Killmonger is probably my least favorite part of the movie, for a number of reasons.

On this we agree, weakest part of the movie. The BP suit is just a bit too overpowered, even moreso than Iron Man, which painted the writers into a corner.

[Tyndmyr]

Because I'm sure he's constantly taking his shirt off on missions. Kevlar, what's that?

He never wears kevlar. He has a steel vest-thingie at some points, but he oddly is shirtless a fair amount. Not merely for the fight, but hanging around in a bathrobe(chest visible) or wholly shirtless in the chamber of plants.

Many of my friends who have gotten out let their beards and hair grow out because its the first time in years they could make that decision for themselves.

Oh yeah, that's basically a former-mil stereotype. Everyone does that, at least at first. That said, they still have habits that show through. For instance, habitually carrying items in their left hand, because saluting. Hats, of course...though that's a really common hollywoodism. Nobody has the slightest idea of when military folk wear hats so far as movies are concerned.

It is fair to mention that he also doesn't seem like an MIT grad. I think we've talked a few times about how MCU likes to shower characters with degrees as shorthand for them being smart. So, yeah, that sort of thing is something Marvel already gets flak for. It is perhaps less ridiculous than Banner's six degrees, but it still doesn't seem like something that fits the character.

The character has a really good motivation, but the rest of his background is pretty much told instead of shown. The motivation is strong enough that the latter isn't a huge problem, though.

I agree that the finale fight seen using extremely rushed CGI of a mirror match between two people in invincible suits near the railway of convenience was...underwhelming. The fight set in Korea is far more interesting. Better scenery, more dynamic, more complex. Just better in every way.