Wisdom

[Rowanomicon]

OK, I'm going to try to homebrew a Wisdom based class that is not a full caster. If/when I do it will appear in the homebrew forum and I will link to that thread in this thread.
In this thread I want to talk about the non-spell aspects of Wisdom in D&D 3.5.

Skills: Listen, Heal, Profession, Spot, Sense Motive, and Survival (is that all of them?) are all based on Wisdom.

Will saves are also based on Wisdom.

Besides divine casting that's about all I can think of.

Some classes have Wisdom based features that could be stolen/adapted.

So: Wisdom: Discuss.

[Temp]

You might check out the X to Y list for Wisdom synergies. Autohypnosis is Wisdom-based... it's a solid skill.

I'm not certain what you're looking for to be honest.

[Rogue 7]

Psychic Warrior casts off of wisdom, but it's still got Melee abilities. Not sure what you're going for here.

[Rowanomicon]

Thanks for that list, Temp.

Also good point on the Psychic Warrior, Rogue; Psionics may be what I'm looking for (rather than Vancian Casting).

Basically what I'm talking about is making a Wisdom based class that doesn't rely on casting.

I also want to avoid just letting the class add their Wisdom mod to everything. Some of this is OK, but not on everything.

One possibility of discussion would interesting uses for Wisdom based skills.

[Lord Tataraus]

How wisdom based do you want it to be? Here is the Martial Artist class I made that relies heavily on wisdom to execute its abilities.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Just make a character like the monk, but give it more wisdom reliant abilities (taking away MAD), and make it less horrible.

[Rowanomicon]

Well that definitely looks interesting.
I've never looked at it before because I am unfamiliar with that show (it's a show right?)

I haven't looked though all of that now, but it seems quite Monky (heheh), but with more options.

EDIT: "Like a Monk, but less horrible" eh? Heheh, good Idea.
Seriously though, I am looking at the monk, but I don't want the Eastern flavour.

[Lord Tataraus]

Well that definitely looks interesting.
I've never looked at it before because I am unfamiliar with that show (it's a show right?)

I haven't looked though all of that now, but it seems quite Monky (heheh), but with more options.

EDIT: "Like a Monk, but less horrible" eh? Heheh, good Idea.
Seriously though, I am looking at the monk, but I don't want the Eastern flavour.

Firstly, yes it was based on the show, but we're starting to take it beyond because a lot of it would fit any campaign. While at first it may look "Monk-y", the majority is not. Only the Wind Warrior and the up-and-coming Serpent Strangler are "Monk-y". One main feature of the class is it has damage progression that applies to both your unarmed strikes and your weapons. There is a sniper style, a counter-monkey, a fencer, a stand-there-and-beat-your-face-in-er as well as a TWFer that's better than the ranger (too many -ers).

[Rowanomicon]

Right.
It looks like a pretty cool class with many possibilities.

[Lord Tataraus]

Right.
It looks like a pretty cool class with many possibilities.

Thanks! I hope it's what your looking for and you don't need to waste time making something close to my work and it is almost completely balanced! A few more play-tests and its ready to go.

[Rowanomicon]

I think that, as it stands, I don't really need to a new class unless I am struck by a bolt of inspiration.

I would definitely look into playing that class in a game that it was allowed.

[Prometheus]

If you are going the melee route, I think you should make something that studies combat as it progresses and learns from it. Something that gains bonuses as the battle progresses, adapts to its opponent and/or deals cumulative Damage-Over-Time attacks, thereby making it to its advantage to draw the battle out and take the long route. It seems like the Wisdom approach to tactics. Intelligence seems more like to do a risky gambit or a quick-surprise-zerg. I second the idea that it should be similar to a monk with the exception of not sucking.

[Rowanomicon]

That's a really good idea for an ability: gaining bonuses that increase as combat goes on.

Like +1 to Attack, Damage, and (or?) AC for every round that the character is in combat with a specific opponent. The bonuses only apply against that opponent. Thus if am opponent enters combat late then the (class) will have a lesser bonus against them then opponents he has been fighting longer.
Every round an opponent may make a Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 (class)'s Class Level + (class)'s Wis mod) to reduce the bonus against them by 1. This represents them trying to change their tactics.

There could also be an ability that grants Favoured Enemy like bonuses based on past experience with monster types. For instance a +1 vs goblinoids for ever 10 goblinoids you've ever killed.

[kamikasei]

Is this a fair description of your goal: to find/construct a SAD Wisdom-dependent class, something that is to Wisdom what a Factotum is to Intelligence, and devise class features for it that all work based off of Wisdom?

Factotum may be an interesting base, actually. Take "Brains over Brawn" and make it "Mind over Matter" (Wis bonus added to all Str- and Dex-based skills)?

[Rowanomicon]

Yes, that seems fair.

I am unfamiliar with Factotum, but it sounds about right.

[UserClone]

You could include the Combat Focus feats from PHB II as part of the class features, only allow them at a slightly significatly lower level. Hope that helps.

[RTGoodman]

If you are going the melee route, I think you should make something that studies combat as it progresses and learns from it.

To this end, check out the Combat Form line of feats in Player's Handbook II.The Combat Focus feat gives you something (a bonus to will saves, I think?) after you get your combat focus (by making a successful attack in combat), and the rest of the feats give you new options once you've got your focus (knowing hit point totals of nearby creatures, getting bonuses to resist trip/grapple, and some other stuff).

Also, you could maybe come up with a new skill, called Combat Intuition or something like that, that's wisdom-based and gives bonuses in combat depending on how high of a check the character makes. Maybe the Archivist's Dark Knowledge class feature could be a starting point.

[Tengu]

If you are going the melee route, I think you should make something that studies combat as it progresses and learns from it. Something that gains bonuses as the battle progresses, adapts to its opponent and/or deals cumulative Damage-Over-Time attacks, thereby making it to its advantage to draw the battle out and take the long route. It seems like the Wisdom approach to tactics. Intelligence seems more like to do a risky gambit or a quick-surprise-zerg. I second the idea that it should be similar to a monk with the exception of not sucking.

Higher Wisdom does not necessary mean more patient. Especially since a wise character will easily be able to judge when drawing out the battle as long as possible is a bad move - and it is, quite often. That reminds me of a post long time ago, where someone suggested that two-weapon fighting is more Chaotic, while two-handed fighting is more Lawful.

Also, I am surprised that Swordsage wasn't mentioned yet. It exactly fits the "non-sucking monk" archetype, and does not need to have an eastern flavour.

[sophosbarbaros]

my take on this is perception (perceptiveness?)

Wisdom is about perceiving things sooner or better than a non-wise character.
the skills support this some. ex. spot, listen.


I think the idea of combat bonuses increasing throughout duration of combat fits well with this. Perhaps you could work out a system that is similar for social use (perhaps in combination with the social skill set), that would help address the non-physical side of wisdom

[Rowanomicon]

my take on this is perception (perceptiveness?)

Wisdom is about perceiving things sooner or better than a non-wise character.
the skills support this some. ex. spot, listen.

Quoted for truth.
Wisdom is about perception, both in a physics (listen, spot) and mental way. Also it is about force of will and willpower.
Some spell casting I think would be good for this, but Vancian Casting is more like a tool-belt than wisdom and willpower.