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    Default An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Anyone remember this? For years, I excited you, delighted you, filled you with awe and dread with sights both wondrous and obscene as I took you on a journey through each chapter of The Wheel of Time, giving you my thoughts and insights as a first time reader of the series. But all that ended in 2019, after I kind of just got tired of doing it and it was the easiest time sink to cut out of my life while I spent most of my time away from work helping care for my now two nieces. I can only assume your lives have been dreary and bereft of hope without me. But fear not, for like the blazing sun after a long and fearful night, I have returned, even more glorious and more egotistical than before!

    I am most of the way through Book 3: The Dragon Reborn and I hope to have a new chapter up for you by the end of the night, though it will probably take some effort to remember just what the heck was going on. This book has been sitting untouched in my drawer at work for almost two years.

    The Series So Far
    Spoiler: Book 1: The Eye of the World
    Show
    Prologue
    Chapter 1: An Empty Road
    Chapter 2: Strangers
    Chapter 3: The Peddler
    Chapter 4: The Gleeman
    Chapter 5: Winternight
    Chapter 6: The Westwood
    Chapter 7: Out of the Woods
    Chapter 8: A Place of Safety
    Chapter 9: Tellings of the Wheel
    Chapter 10: Leavetaking
    Chapter 11: The Road to Taren Ferry
    Chapter 12: Across the Taren
    Chapter 13: Choices
    Chapter 14: The Stag and Lion
    Chapter 15: Strangers and Friends
    Chapter 16: The Wisdom
    Chapter 17: Watchers and Hunters
    Chapter 18: The Caemlyn Road
    Chapter 19: Shadow's Waiting
    Chapter 20: Dust on the Wind
    Chapter 21: Listen to the Wind
    Chapter 22: A Path Chosen
    Chapter 23: Wolfbrother
    Chapter 24: Flight Down the Arinelle
    Chapter 25: The Traveling People
    Chapter 26: Whitebridge
    Chapter 27: Shelter From the Storm
    Chapter 28: Footprints in Air
    Chapter 29: Eyes Without Pity
    Chapter 30: Children of Shadow
    Chapter 31: Play For Your Supper
    Chapter 32: Four Kings in Shadow
    Chapter 33: The Shadow Waits
    Chapter 34: The Last Village
    Chapter 35: Caemlyn
    Chapter 36: Web of the Pattern
    Chapter 37: The Long Chase
    Chapter 38: Rescue
    Chapter 39: Weaving of the Web
    Chapter 40: The Web Tightens
    Chapter 41: Old Friends and New Threats
    Chapter 42: Remembrance of Dreams
    Chapter 43: Decisions and Apparitions
    Chapter 44: The Dark Along the Ways
    Chapter 45: What Follows in Shadow
    Chapter 46: Fal Dara
    Chapter 47: More Tales of the Wheel
    Chapter 48: The Blight
    Chapter 49: The Dark One Stirs
    Chapter 50: Meetings at the Eye
    Chapter 51: Against the Shadow
    Chapter 52: There is Neither Beginning Nor End
    Chapter 53: The Wheel Turns


    Last edited by An Enemy Spy; 2021-06-13 at 11:13 AM.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Chapter 51: Bait for the Net

    Starting off with a Team Magikarp chapter. They're trying to bait their net for the evil Aes Sedai they're after in Tear, but knowing their track record I'm sure they'll be the ones who end up caught.

    Nynaeve is on the streets of Tear and very briefly catches a glimpse of Rand going by, though she brushes it off as just her mind playing tricks on her. We know it's Rand though, because a man walking by suddenly slips and all his fish land nose down in the mud arranged in a perfect circle. If you recall, wherever Rand goes, bizarre nonsense follows.

    Nynaeve is out buying overpriced food of very low quality. The war choking off trade has turned basic necessities into luxury items, never a good time to be poor and hungry, though the merchants are certainly making a mint. Pray for tragedy if you're a fish salesman, I guess. She rounds a corner and nearly knock over Juilin Sandar, the man they had paid to investigate the rogue Aes Sedai. He tells her she needs to follow him back to the rest of the group and drops a bombshell: The rogue Aes Sedai are in the Stone itself, guests of the High Lord Samon! It takes so much effort for me not to write that name as Salmon by the way. It would fit too, what with Tear being such a fishing city.

    They make it to Wise Woman Guenna's house, only to discover Guenna magically pinned to her chair with an Air weave, likely the same kind as the one used against Rand at the start of Book 2. Oh no, Liandrin and her cronies are already here!



    They charge up their Saidar, and Liandrin is in the middle of a taunt before Nynaeve just decks one of them right in the face. I give Nynaeve ****, but that was pretty cool. Well a pair of fists sadly is no match for an entire room full of spellcasters, so Nynaeve is dealt with in short order by a flurry of Air blasts from every side. Rianna, the one Nynaeve punched, is ready to kill her on the spot but in true tropey villain fashion, Liandrin wants her captured instead. Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are all three trussed up to be taken to Lord Salmon in the Stone of Tear.



    Oh, I've been waiting to use that one.

    They pass Sandar on the way out the door. He is genuinely remorseful for giving them up to the Black Ajah, but he says he had to do it. I think they used some kind of mind control on him after they caught him spying on them, so he likely had no choice but to follow their orders even if he didn't want to.

    Nynaeve tries to bluff her captors, telling them that getting caught was all part of the plan. They came as bait to draw them out you see. What other explanation could there be, that three novices who can barely cast a weave between them would be sent to capture a whole cabal of powerful Black Ajah all on their lonesome? What kind of a stupid plan would that be? Only an idiot would come up with a plan like that. Anyone who would act on that plan expecting it to work would have to be a complete imbecile, a rube of the highest order, a screw-up of outrageous proportions!

    Liandrin's not impressed tough. She tells our three Magikarps exactly what's in store for them. They are being brought to the Forsaken the Great Master Be'lal(who I can only assume is Lord Salmon) He's ordered for thirteen Myrdraal in the mail, and once the postman brings them along, they'll enact the ritual to turn our heroes into Black Ajah!

    Dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuuuuun!

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    You're back! And better than ever!
    That looks as an entertaining recap. I have forgotten most of the details about how things went down in Tear.


    "Children grow up to be people? All the children I knew grew up to be machines."
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Huzzah! It has returned.

    Yeah, that plan was dumb. I'm surprised it didn't fail sooner.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Chapter 51: Bait for the Net

    ...[T]he High Lord Samon! It takes so much effort for me not to write that name as Salmon by the way...

    ...Lord Salmon in the Stone...

    ...to the Forsaken the Great Master Be'lal(who I can only assume is Lord Salmon)...
    Aaand... You failed.
    /asdf movie

    Was just reading your backlog the other month and wondering what happened to you!

    And yeah, Nynavene grows on you.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    I have to admit, im mainly treading water waiting for you to reach books 4-6. Those were my favorites of the series. So much stuff happens, and so much of it is interesting. Book 3 isnt bad though, it ends up being the start of the good times. Glad to see you back.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

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    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Agree with 4-6 being the peak of Jordan's run, followed by Sanderson hacking down various plot branches that were getting out of control once he took over. What I'm really excited for is the Amazon live-action series which is steadily continuing through development!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    Anyone remember this? For years, I excited you, delighted you, filled you with awe and dread with sights both wondrous and obscene as I took you on a journey through each chapter of The Wheel of Time, giving you my thoughts and insights as a first time reader of the series.
    The Wheel of Time thread turns, Posts come and pass, leaving memories that become Threads. Threads fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Post that gave it birth comes again.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Welcome back AES! I don't remember whether I posted in your old threads, but I did follow them with great enjoyment. I've only read the series once and it was many years ago, but it's fun reliving them through your sarcastic lens. I hope you're able to continue for a while at least.
    Last edited by Velaryon; 2021-06-13 at 11:49 AM.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Agree with 4-6 being the peak of Jordan's run, followed by Sanderson hacking down various plot branches that were getting out of control once he took over. What I'm really excited for is the Amazon live-action series which is steadily continuing through development!
    I'm ambivalent at best about it. Been burned far too often of late with 'adaptions' that stray far from the source material or the showrunners think they know better than the authors (GoT S8, The Hobbit, The Watch etc). I'll be giving it a miss until I hear otherwise on how good/bad it is.

    The problem with adapting WoT is it is just far too massive so you know there will be a lot cut out/changed to make it fit in.
    Spoiler
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    And I'm not sure how well the philosophical debate between Rand and the DO at the end is going to go down with viewers who don't know the source material.


    Speaking of favourites, The Dragon Reborn is right up there as probably my favourite. I seem to remember it was the book that really got me hooked on the series. I was reading them as they were released (which makes me feel old.)

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Yaaaay! I greatly enjoyed reading these when you were doing them previously. I don't think I ever went back and read from the start, which is something I'm now rectifying. I like that you separated out the posts - going through three 50 page threads would be a bit much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Agree with 4-6 being the peak of Jordan's run, followed by Sanderson hacking down various plot branches that were getting out of control once he took over. What I'm really excited for is the Amazon live-action series which is steadily continuing through development!
    Sanderson did chop off a lot of branches, but it's worth noting that Jordan himself was already doing that in the final book he wrote before he died. Knife of Dreams raced through a bunch of the slow moving plots from Heart of Winter/Crossroads of Twilight and was generally a big improvement over the previous two books. I think Jordan would have ended strongly if he'd managed to stay healthy enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
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    And I'm not sure how well the philosophical debate between Rand and the DO at the end is going to go down with viewers who don't know the source material.
    Spoiler
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    Depends on how it's done. The finale of Return of the Jedi is a lot of talking between Luke and the Emeperor, and the finale of Babylon 5 is a big philosophical debate between Sheridan/Delenn and the Shadows/Vorlons. Both worked very well.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Spoiler: Amazon TV Show Stuff, mostly spoiler-free
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    I'm ambivalent at best about it. Been burned far too often of late with 'adaptions' that stray far from the source material or the showrunners think they know better than the authors (GoT S8, The Hobbit, The Watch etc). I'll be giving it a miss until I hear otherwise on how good/bad it is.
    To be fair, the GoT writers did a fantastic job of adapting the material when they had material to adapt. It's when they ran out that we all learned they were not nearly as good at writing as they had been at adaptation.

    As WoT is already complete, running out of material won't be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The problem with adapting WoT is it is just far too massive so you know there will be a lot cut out/changed to make it fit in.
    Spoiler
    Show
    And I'm not sure how well the philosophical debate between Rand and the DO at the end is going to go down with viewers who don't know the source material.
    We've actually had
    Spoiler
    Show
    "philosophical debate final battles"
    turn out very successfully in mainstream media recently, e.g. Doctor Strange, WandaVision's Ship of Theseus, Arrival etc. So I don't believe Wheel of Time is going to be as far out in left field as you think in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Spoiler
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    Depends on how it's done. The finale of Return of the Jedi is a lot of talking between Luke and the Emeperor, and the finale of Babylon 5 is a big philosophical debate between Sheridan/Delenn and the Shadows/Vorlons. Both worked very well.
    This too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Sanderson did chop off a lot of branches, but it's worth noting that Jordan himself was already doing that in the final book he wrote before he died. Knife of Dreams raced through a bunch of the slow moving plots from Heart of Winter/Crossroads of Twilight and was generally a big improvement over the previous two books. I think Jordan would have ended strongly if he'd managed to stay healthy enough.
    Thing is, Knife of Dreams
    Spoiler
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    had some of the worst pacing in the series. The majority of the book is Perrin sloooooooooowly following the Shaido around. Maybe he would have done better after that, but we'll never know.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Thing is, Knife of Dreams
    Spoiler
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    had some of the worst pacing in the series. The majority of the book is Perrin sloooooooooowly following the Shaido around. Maybe he would have done better after that, but we'll never know.
    Spoiler
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    This reminds me of the idea (possibly mine?) to chop each book into its characters, then glue them together as The Story of Perrin, etc, so we're not just waiting to go back to Rand, Mat, & <insert your favorite here> all the time. And when you sit down to read Pear in the Wheel of Time his chapters aren't dead space anymore, they're what you're there for.

    Wouldn't suggest it to realtors/publishers, though, because you may find that certain characters sell out faster despite people needing all of them for the overall narrative.
    Last edited by Misery Esquire; 2021-06-08 at 09:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misery Esquire View Post
    Spoiler
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    This reminds me of the idea (possibly mine?) to chop each book into its characters, then glue them together as The Story of Perrin, etc, so we're not just waiting to go back to Rand, Mat, & <insert your favorite here> all the time. And when you sit down to read Pear in the Wheel of Time his chapters aren't dead space anymore, they're what you're there for.

    Wouldn't suggest it to realtors/publishers, though, because you may find that certain characters sell out faster despite people needing all of them for the overall narrative.
    That's the beauty of an adaptation - you can stick with one character's parts chronologically and more cohesively, even if they span different books. We saw this with Arya and Bran in GoT, where some of their material from aCoK/ASoS/ADwD was presented in the show differently than the books handled it, e.g. less jumping around between perspectives in some instances.

    Another big issue GoT ran into that WoT can get around is:
    Spoiler
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    distance ceasing to matter later on with the cast suddenly teleporting to where they need to be - WoT does the same thing, except it's explained in-universe by the cast literally learning how to teleport later in the series.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Misery Esquire View Post
    Spoiler
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    This reminds me of the idea (possibly mine?) to chop each book into its characters, then glue them together as The Story of Perrin, etc, so we're not just waiting to go back to Rand, Mat, & <insert your favorite here> all the time. And when you sit down to read Pear in the Wheel of Time his chapters aren't dead space anymore, they're what you're there for.

    Wouldn't suggest it to realtors/publishers, though, because you may find that certain characters sell out faster despite people needing all of them for the overall narrative.
    That sort of thing, done well, could be super freaking interesting. You read the story of one character, and a lot happens during the series that, much like the main character, you dont understand because it came out of nowhere. Then you read the story of the second character, you see what path they followed, and see how it ties into the first characters story and explains a few things, while at the same time leaving its own questions. Then release the third characters story that ties up most of the loose ends, makes you go back to the first and go "Oooh! So THATS why this happened!" Because now everything is tied together between the three stories into one fully explained.

    As a simple example, take book 2 where we had our three lads having their borderlander borderline breakup because perrin and matt thought rand was being a puffed up wannabe noble, while rand was trying his hardest to protect his friends by chasing them away or whatever. If we only knew perrins perspective, we would have a very different opinion on rand as a person, then when we read rands story we get to see where he was coming from and that he wasnt being a giant horses rear end, he was trying to protect his best friend the only way he could think of. Reading the story several times, from each characters point of view could be a fascinating idea so long as everyone involved has enough of their own events to make the other versions of the same story interesting while at the same time being connected to the the first books events.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Hi there! We'll probably never have this many posts out of spoiler tags again, best enjoy it while it lasts.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Welcome back! Was just thinking about this the other day, didn't realize it'd already been 2 years.
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    As a simple example, take book 2 where we had our three lads having their borderlander borderline breakup because perrin and matt thought rand was being a puffed up wannabe noble, while rand was trying his hardest to protect his friends by chasing them away or whatever. If we only knew perrins perspective, we would have a very different opinion on rand as a person, then when we read rands story we get to see where he was coming from and that he wasnt being a giant horses rear end, he was trying to protect his best friend the only way he could think of. Reading the story several times, from each characters point of view could be a fascinating idea so long as everyone involved has enough of their own events to make the other versions of the same story interesting while at the same time being connected to the the first books events.
    Bold made me chuckle

    But I suspect that books 1-2 will be primarily from Rand's perspective in an adaptation. Perrin will have two specific seeds to plant (which AES covered in previous threads) while Mat is a glorified side character until book 3 onward.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Bold made me chuckle

    But I suspect that books 1-2 will be primarily from Rand's perspective in an adaptation. Perrin will have two specific seeds to plant (which AES covered in previous threads) while Mat is a glorified side character until book 3 onward.
    Yeah, im not saying that wheel of time as currently written would be the ideal thing to break up into books that cover perspective of events, I was just using events from the series to highlight what I meant about how the different perspective on the same event could be interesting if done right.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Reading through the summaries of books 1 and 2 really struck me with how little there is for the rest of the cast to do in those books.

    Eye of the World has the Fellowship until it breaks up, and most of the narrative is carried by Rand and Moiraine with the others as hangers-on.

    Once they split up, it's Rand's story and Perrin's story. Egwene and Mat are just kind of...there. Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Lan show up to help rescue Perrin and that's it. Once they're back together again it's the Rand Story again.

    The Great Hunt is worse. Rand gets the focus while Perrin and Mat just hang out and do nothing. Thom gets a glorified cameo. Moiraine and Lan also aren't around much other than the encounter with the Draghkar. Team Magikarp gets the rest of the focus.

    This may be why books 3-6 are so well regarded. They diversify the viewpoints so that the entire main cast are getting focus. The world expands and we get to see more of it. The kudzu that will eventually overwhelm the later novels is still under control.

    It makes me suspect that the adaptation for books 1 and 2 might have some extra stuff in it, similar to how Game of Thrones inserted additional scenes to give actors who vanish for a while something to do. Several of the main cast have this issue where the early books are establishing their character and they don't get full relevance until several books in. Mat in particular would need a meatier role to start with, but it wouldn't surprise me if we had additional scenes with Elayne in book 1 to smoothly insert her into the cast.

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    Default Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time IV: The Spy Reborn

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    had additional scenes with Elayne in book 1 to smoothly insert her into the cast.
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    Taking baths and bossing people around
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Reading through the summaries of books 1 and 2 really struck me with how little there is for the rest of the cast to do in those books.

    Eye of the World has the Fellowship until it breaks up, and most of the narrative is carried by Rand and Moiraine with the others as hangers-on.

    Once they split up, it's Rand's story and Perrin's story. Egwene and Mat are just kind of...there. Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Lan show up to help rescue Perrin and that's it. Once they're back together again it's the Rand Story again.

    The Great Hunt is worse. Rand gets the focus while Perrin and Mat just hang out and do nothing. Thom gets a glorified cameo. Moiraine and Lan also aren't around much other than the encounter with the Draghkar. Team Magikarp gets the rest of the focus.

    This may be why books 3-6 are so well regarded. They diversify the viewpoints so that the entire main cast are getting focus. The world expands and we get to see more of it. The kudzu that will eventually overwhelm the later novels is still under control.

    It makes me suspect that the adaptation for books 1 and 2 might have some extra stuff in it, similar to how Game of Thrones inserted additional scenes to give actors who vanish for a while something to do. Several of the main cast have this issue where the early books are establishing their character and they don't get full relevance until several books in. Mat in particular would need a meatier role to start with, but it wouldn't surprise me if we had additional scenes with Elayne in book 1 to smoothly insert her into the cast.
    I have no doubt they have an expansion of some kind planned for Mat. His father Abell for instance is barely in the books, but they have a decent-ish actor (Christopher Sciueref, from Krypton) slated to play him in the series.

    My guess is that they're doing this so they can
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    show rather than tell Mat's insane quarterstaff ability and the training he receives from his dad, which his Ashandarei memories will build on. They will also probably play up the scene where Tam and Abell visit Siuan Sanche looking for their sons.


    But the whole "characters with barely anything to do in early books become much more prominent as the series progresses" isn't that uncommon either. Theon Greyjoy and Effie Trinket are good examples of this. Pippin starts LotR as one-note comic relief, but by Return of the King he's had a bigger arc than even Gimli.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    But the whole "characters with barely anything to do in early books become much more prominent as the series progresses" isn't that uncommon either. Theon Greyjoy and Effie Trinket are good examples of this. Pippin starts LotR as one-note comic relief, but by Return of the King he's had a bigger arc than even Gimli.
    Oh, for sure. I wasn't criticizing WoT in particular for doing it - the characters are there to give the main characters someone to talk to and to get them where they need to be for future events. You can write a character entirely out of a book only to have them come back later.

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    Like Mat spending an entire book underneath a collapsed wall


    However, that doesn't work very well in a TV format. You can't say to an actor "we need you for one episode in season 1, then 3 years from now you'll have a major role". You either need to write out characters who cameo early or give them something substantive to do. You can also do composite characters, like how Gendry took the role of the second Baratheon bastard instead of doddling off to become a blacksmith.

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    The Emond's Fielders are a particularly rough case of this. Everyone mentioned in book 1 has a major role in...book 4 is it? I think that's right, Perrin never went to the Aiel Waste because he went home instead. Perrin then spends book 5 off IIRC, as he learns to become a lord and only rejoins the gang for the big battle at the end of 6. He's going to need more to do during that gap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Oh, for sure. I wasn't criticizing WoT in particular for doing it - the characters are there to give the main characters someone to talk to and to get them where they need to be for future events. You can write a character entirely out of a book only to have them come back later.

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    Like Mat spending an entire book underneath a collapsed wall


    However, that doesn't work very well in a TV format. You can't say to an actor "we need you for one episode in season 1, then 3 years from now you'll have a major role". You either need to write out characters who cameo early or give them something substantive to do. You can also do composite characters, like how Gendry took the role of the second Baratheon bastard instead of doddling off to become a blacksmith.

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    The Emond's Fielders are a particularly rough case of this. Everyone mentioned in book 1 has a major role in...book 4 is it? I think that's right, Perrin never went to the Aiel Waste because he went home instead. Perrin then spends book 5 off IIRC, as he learns to become a lord and only rejoins the gang for the big battle at the end of 6. He's going to need more to do during that gap.
    Totally agreed and I'm excited for what they might have planned to fill in some of those gaps.

    Keep in mind too that the books themselves sometimes get wonky as timeline goes too. One book in particular is
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    a bunch of people around the world all independently reacting to the same event

    which could be quite a challenge to show in a TV format.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Keep in mind too that the books themselves sometimes get wonky as timeline goes too. One book in particular is
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    a bunch of people around the world all independently reacting to the same event

    which could be quite a challenge to show in a TV format.
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    Less challenging than in the book, really - because in the books we're thrown all over the timeline for How Long Until It Happens, and some people don't even get it in that book. On TV they can just have someone say the date just before it happens, and then write "two weeks ago" or "two weeks before _______" onscreen so we know exactly when we are. Or entwine the two three THE timelines so one character doesn't get weeks/months ahead.

    Also for hilariously broken storytelling, the entire flashback chapter in Book 1. Although once again we may be saved by soap opera functionality where it does a wavy "flashback transition" that people will recognize.

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    Chapter 52: In Search of a Remedy

    It's been so long since I've read this book I don't remember how it is Thom got sick, or maybe this is when we learn he got sick? I genuinely don't remember. Anyway, Thom is sick and Mat has to get him to a healer, and wouldn't you know it, there's a reputable one named Mother Guenna nearby. Mat takes him to her house and she forces medicine down his throat despite Thom's best attempts to avoid swallowing the foul tasting stuff. Genna offhandedly mentions having met two girls who share Mat's accent and he soon realizes that Team Magikarp had been staying in this very house. Against Guenna's protests that she's been told to say nothing of what happened for fear of losing her tongue, Mat gets the story out of her about what happened and where the girls have been taken. If you are a prospective villain reading this, that's why you don't leave witnesses.

    Mat decides to go rescue the girls, and he leaves Thom in Guenna's care, much to the gleeman's chagrin. It's going to take a lot of skill and a lot luck to sneak into a fortress like the stone of Tear, but luck is something Mat has in spades.

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    It's been a really long time since I read it, but I seem to recall that Thom had a cough for a while before they reached Tear. It's one of those "no really, it's nothing" coughs that always turns out to be a zombie bite or the plague or something.

    I didn't realize as a kid, but this is a clear case of "Goku Sickness." A conveniently timed disease or injury unleashed upon the most badass character around for the sole purpose of sidelining them so their less capable lackeys get to do something for a change.

    You're up Mat! Try not to screw things up as badly as Krillin.

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    Don't be hard on my boy Krillin. It was Vegeta who messed things up and everyone knows it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    It's been a really long time since I read it, but I seem to recall that Thom had a cough for a while before they reached Tear. It's one of those "no really, it's nothing" coughs that always turns out to be a zombie bite or the plague or something.

    I didn't realize as a kid, but this is a clear case of "Goku Sickness." A conveniently timed disease or injury unleashed upon the most badass character around for the sole purpose of sidelining them so their less capable lackeys get to do something for a change.

    You're up Mat! Try not to screw things up as badly as Krillin.
    It was a pretty clear case of Ta'veren at work, not just sidelining thom, but also taking Matt to the only house in town where he can be pointed where he needs to go.

    Also from what I recall the last few chapters for Mat and Thom were running around in the rain wandering aimlessly searching for the girls. Thom ignoring the start of his cough and spending a bunch of time in the cold and wet basically led up to this chapter.
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    Honestly, thats my favorite thing, how the author uses "ta'veren stuff" to explain why the good guys survive and constantly stumble over just what they need to move the story forward. Im pretty sure the actual definition of the word in the old tongue is plot armor. He doesnt even try to hide it, its an integral part of the storyline that it must and does happen.
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