Tiefling Draconic sorcerer w/ Flames of Phlegethos as a tank?

[Greywander]

At first I was looking at a Storm sorcerer, with the idea of grabbing Infernal Constitution in order to be resistant to fire, cold, poison, lightning, and thunder, but now I'm looking at Draconic instead. Draconic makes you a bit tankier, and Flames of Phlegethos is ideal for a character who is in melee and constantly casting fire spells, so choosing a fire type for your draconic ancestry works well.

To get the most out of Flames of Phlegethos, I need to (a) be casting fire spells all the time, and (b) be in melee. Obviously, I'll need some backup options for fire-immune enemies, but that's to be expected, and shouldn't be too common unless we happen to be adventuring in the Nine Hells. What I'm curious about is the viability of being in melee, and if Flames of Phlegethos is even worth it.

Draconic sorcs get HP equivalent to a d8 class, which isn't... terrible, but it's not the greatest. They do get 13 + DEX mod unarmored AC, but you really need to drop points into DEX to get the most out of that. One option would be to dip into another class specifically for medium armor + shields (mostly the shield; medium armor is more of a hassle for little gains over unarmored).

If we're talking about class dips, then the two that first come to mind are paladin and warlock. Two levels in paladin gets me my armor, and the ability to smite. However, my weapon attacks will be relying on my STR or DEX score, making me more MAD. With a warlock dip, I could go Hexblade, and then I can use CHA for my weapon attacks, but don't have access to smites anymore (though I could be a Zariel tiefling or something). Another interesting option is a genielock dip, which doesn't give me any armor proficiency, but it does allow me to add fire damage to any attack I make, weapon or spell, thus triggering Flames of Phlegethos. With genielock, I could even dip two levels to get Agonizing Blast, and since EB would add fire damage, it would still trigger FoP (but since I'm not rolling any fire damage, one of the main benefits is wasted).

The best dip option seems to be a 1 level dip into Hexblade with a Zariel tiefling, using GFB as my primary attack (assuming I don't cast a leveled spell). I can start with an ability array of 8, 16, 15, 8, 8, 17, and use Infernal Constitution and Flames of Phlegethos to bump CON up to 16 and CHA up to 18 (though I might rather drop DEX or CON in order to boost my other stats). From there, I can grab +2 CHA and two other feats, or Fey Touched + Shadow Touched and one other feat (either Elemental Adept or Warcaster). (It's worth noting that I may not need both Flames of Phlegethos and Elemental Adept, and I might need Warcaster if I'm using a shield and holding a weapon. Other feats I might want include Metamagic Adept, Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, or Eldritch Adept.)

I suppose my question is: Is this viable as a melee sorc, and is Flames of Phlegethos worth it?

[LudicSavant]

is Flames of Phlegethos worth it?

Flames of Phlegethos is a pretty good feat, for the following reasons:

- It boosts your primary stat! This is a big enough deal on its own that FoP doesn't need to be applying in every situation to get its money's worth. That is to say, you should not feel like you have to cast fire spells all the time, if you're in a situation where another spell would be better.

- Mathematically, Flames of Phlegethos improves your average fire damage by approximately .5 damage per die, regardless of the die size (making it nice and easy to remember). So for example a Fireball would effectively be doing about 8d6+4 damage... that's about as much as the Draconic Sorcerer's level 6 feature! What's more, unlike said feature, it applies on all hits, so things like Create Bonfire or Wall of Fire will benefit repeatedly.


To be exact, it's +.38 per d4, +.42 per d6, +.44 per d8, +.45 per d10, +.46 per d12

- The 1d4 retribution damage hits automatically, so it's basically a straight +2.5 true DPR per melee hit on you (people usually underestimate the damage output of things that hit automatically). Also, it will totally proc stuff like Hexblade's Curse. You can stack it up with things like Fire Shield or Armor of Agathys or Hellish Rebuke (or all of the above and more) in order to make attacking you in melee a suicidal endeavor. You can then take Warcaster to make a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" decision tree (e.g. hitting the tank is bad, walking away from the tank is also bad).

[Greywander]

Thanks for the analysis. Being a half feat that boosts my casting stat is definitely a strong point in the feat's favor, it just seems like every time I look at this feat I alternate between thinking its neat and wanting to build around it, to worrying that it's negligible and I'd be better off with a different feat or a straight +2. I think last time I asked this question, the general consensus was that you really needed to be in melee leveraging that last bullet point to make it worth it.

Considering that I'll need to pack other spells for fire-immune enemies, I probably don't need Elemental Adept. Usually people seem to recommend getting either Elemental Adept or Flames of Phlegethos, but not both. If I encounter fire-resistant enemies, I can just fall back on my non-fire spells.

I'm also wondering if such a build can actually tank; yeah, they might be tough, and they might punish attackers, but how do I actually get people to attack me in the first place? Or maybe I'm better off not being attacked. But if I want to tank, it feels like I'd need to pick up both Warcaster and Sentinel, so that I can punish enemies for moving away or attacking someone else. I kind of need Warcaster anyway, so I can cast with my hands full. I think GFB is eligible for Warcaster's OA replacement, so long as I don't have the flame jump to a second creature, but I might pick up BB as well, just in case (also doubles as an option for fire-immune enemies, if I'm stuck in melee).

I'm also not sure if it makes sense to get both Fey Touched and Shadow Touched. I know sorcs are always wishing for more spells known, so that's why I mentioned them, but if I just need a half feat, then there's also Telekinetic and Telepathic. However, this might mean not getting something else, like Metamagic Adept. Instead of two half feats, I could take a +2 and something like Metamagic Adept. Hmm, is it better to get four more spells known (each with one free casting per long rest), or one more metamagic?

[LudicSavant]

Thanks for the analysis.

I'm also wondering if such a build can actually tank; yeah, they might be tough, and they might punish attackers, but how do I actually get people to attack me in the first place?

The way you get attacked is generally by some combination of...
- Making yourself so impactful on the fight that they can't afford to ignore you.
- Punishing people for ignoring you (Warcaster, Concentration, etc).
- Positioning, positioning, positioning. It's important enough to say three times.

Tanking in human vs human games isn't just about pure personal durability, or even about "forcing" an enemy to attack you. It's about creating these sorts of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations. This is why Sentinel is a good tanking ability (not specifically for this build, just like, in general). It punishes people for trying to move away, punishes them for attacking people next to you, and then the punishment for them attacking you is filled in by other features (like having a high AC/hp).

As long as you're effectively creating these kinds of forks, you're tanking.

[Tanarii]

Tiefling EK with Greenflame Blade.

[RSP]

Have you thought of Divine Soul for tanking? Won’t help with fire damage but Aid, Death Ward, Cure Wounds, and Spirit Guardians all help a Sorc on the frontlines. Staying power is definitely my main concern with a frontline Sorc.

My only concern with FoP is it eats a feat spot, though that’s certainly a worthwhile cost for a character you’ll have fun playing.

It may also be worthwhile to emphasize AC (whether from Dex or Str) and Con over Cha, to help with staying power. Most fire spells will at least do half damage on a successful save, and the one or two point swing in DC won’t be such a difference as turning a few hits into misses and having some extra HPs per SR.

[whateew]

If you really want to stretch this, I'd heartily recommend the clockwork soul sorcerer. You get the armour of agathys spell (which can be quickened, making it way more useful for a tank imo), which adds additional punishment to melee attackers.
Then, you spend your sorcery point on that ward feature the sorcerer gets, which prolongs your temporary hitpoints, allowing you to get a ton of use out of an upscaled armour of ag. Otherwise, you get a bunch of free additional spells known, who can say no to that?

If you want to really lean into this melee tank thing, consider building a sorcadin with 2 in paladin. You could use gfb to reliably power your flames, and having smites to threaten your enemies with is a great way to try and force them to fight you

You could also instead build a warlock around this I guess, going hexblade and attacking with cha, using gfb to proc flames, and pre-casting an upscaled armour of agathys. This is one of those few characters who could benefit from metamagic adept - extended spell on armour of agathys would let you short rest to recover the slot after casting twice per long rest, which might be nice. Quickened spell to rush cast it in combat too. Reading your genielock idea, that'd also be a great way of getting armour of agathys (useful spell for a tank, and fits your hit-me vibe, but perhaps I'm pushing it a bit hard here), and it wouldn't force you to be a melee fighter which is very nice (and makes a fantastic 1 level dip).

If you are a tad hexblade phobic, as I am, you can also use a celestial lock who takes shillelagh and gfb as your tome spells, or just focus dex rather than cha. Not as easy, but you get some bonus action heals to help the people you tank for, and you get a pretty potent gfb. If your DM is the type to give you a free racial feat, or would let you swap out some of your race features for said feat, that could be fun. You could get a very fitting hellish rebuke too, although I don't think it'd be a good use of slots haha

Possibly, you DM may even let you take it as a custom lineage feat for a weird "holy tiefling" flavour, renouncing their heritage by taking a pact and thus having FoP instead of the normal stuff. While not RAW allowed, most of the people I play with would allow such things (especially as this build doesn't seem too nuts compared to a PAM sentinel)

A fun build could look like:
Custom lineage with 15 +2 Dex, 15 +1 cha, flame of phlegthos.
Celestialock, taking armour of agathys as a spell and GFB as a cantrip. You take pact of the blade at 3rd to use a rapier to attack, moderately armoured at 4th to get you and off hand shield and round off your dex, and improved pact weapon.

By 6th level, you could in the right situation swing a rapier at +6 to hit, using gfb to deal (1d8 + 4 + 1) 10 magical piercing + (2d8 + 2 X cha) 15 fire damage. Not a DPS god, and it requires two closeby enemies, but it could work as well as for the sorcer. It would reliably proc your FoP as well as get you some armour of agathys usage.

[RSP]

If going Armor of Agathys, you can use the new TCoE metamagic to turn it from Cold damage to Fire damage, which might be a nice RP touch. Sadly, I believe this would prevent Extended also being used on it (which would be the optimal choice, but the RP element is pretty cool).