Improving Monkey Grip

[Magnus_Samma]

I have a guilty pleasure. I love portraying characters carrying around weapons that are unreasonably large, and the Monkey Grip feat complements this perfectly. The problem is that it sucks. I mean, it sucks (oh, I said it again). So the way I see it, we just need to make it less sucky so people will stop yelling at me for using it.

There are two ways we can do this. First of all, change the feat itself, lowering the penalty to attack rolls. Or build a chain- create an "Improved Monkey Grip" feat that eliminates the penalty completely. I think the feat could also be modified to include allowing a character to wield a two-handed weapon of their size category in their primary hand.

Honestly, I don't think it would be terribly overpowered to build all of that into one feat- maybe add on a couple of requirements, like a minimum strength score. But I'm generally a poor judge of what is and isn't "balanced." Would putting all of that into the same feat be ridiculous, or should there be a chain?

[vanyell]

look at the 3.0 monkey grip. that's probably what you want...

[Pegasos989]

Well, the problem with MG is that it is so dependant on weapon. For example, dwarven waraxe turns from 1d10 to 2d8, so from 5.5 to 9 average. 3.5 damage for -2 is actually better for a sword (axe) and board fighter than power attacking. Well, they are also subpar but that is not the issue we are solving here.

So you want the feat to raise weapon category to one bigger for no penalty (it would become actually useful fot THW fighters but not overpowered, as their damage wouldn't raise enough that it would be too good for a feat and it might become harder to find magical weapons, etc) but then again, it boosts damage of sword and board fighters by 3.5 then with the feat, which is a lot better than weapon spec.

Many people would say that weapon spec isn't that awesome feat and that sword and board fighters need a small boost and I won't disagree. Just mentioning.

[Ambrogino]

Use the NWN2/3.0 Mokey grip rules. -2 penalty to use a 2-handed weapon in one hand, nothing to do with different size catagories. You want huge weapons, play BESM.

[Serakus_DeSardis]

I have a guilty pleasure. I love portraying characters carrying around weapons that are unreasonably large, and the Monkey Grip feat complements this perfectly.

Anime fanboy?

[Were-Sandwich]

The problem with changing Monkey Grip, is that taking away the main problem with it (The attack penalty) makes it too good. It would be standard issue for every low-level fighter.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Anime fanboy?

I wish people would stop saying anyone who uses Monkey Grip is an anime fanboy/girl. I've seen plenty of people who have picked Monkey Grip solely because they want to do something like the picture for it. People who don't even know what anime is.



On topic though a chain of feats for Monkey Grip, stuff that throws in extra abilities for using oversized weapons (Read: WORTHWHILE abilities), seems like the best way to mitgate the penalty and make it...well better. Perhaps an Improved Monkey Grip that removes the penalty entirely (Or even gives a + to hit. Combing Weapon Focus and MG). That would probaly be a mid-range feat though. Maybe requiring a BAB of +9-10, Monkey Grip, and maybe another MG related feat.

[Darrin]

I have a guilty pleasure. I love portraying characters carrying around weapons that are unreasonably large, and the Monkey Grip feat complements this perfectly. The problem is that it sucks. I mean, it sucks (oh, I said it again). So the way I see it, we just need to make it less sucky so people will stop yelling at me for using it.

It sucks. Reading the horribly confusing wording on the 3.5 version causes my brain to shrink 1d4 size categories. Even if you fixed it, it would still stuck.

The best way to get that proper "I have an oversized weapon" strut is to wield an oversize weapon without Monkey Grip. And lo, the powers that be heard the masses, and thus they created "Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade". But alas, this was only 3.0 compatable, erratified, and possibly just illegal to begin with (A medium creature wielding a huge weapon? Can you EWP something that you can't legally wield?).

Which means you're stuck with the Bastard Sword/Dwarven Waraxe and a few uninspiring pokey/smashy-things in Complete Warrior. Although, if you want to go TWF+Oversize TWF, dishing out two-fisted 1d10 whoopass isn't a bad way to go.

Complete Warrior gives you the Maul (cheaper but heavier version of the Dwarven Waraxe), the Warmace (one-handed version of a Great Axe for -1 AC), a Greatspear (basically a Greatsword + reach that you can... uh... throw?), and a Heavy Poleaxe (heavier version of the Greatspear that... uh... can't be thrown?).

A Ftr6 with Two Warmaces + TWF + Oversize TWF + ITWF + TWD + ITWD could be interesting. Revenge of the "cry yourself to sleep" die indeed.

Slightly easier way to get Monkey Grip without any penalty (well, ok, with a +1 LA): Play a Half-Ogre or Golaith with the racial ability "Powerful Build".

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, NWN2's Monkey Grip is actually, you know, useful. Using their Monkey Grip + TWF + Oversize TWF lets you wield two greatswords at once, which is certainly intimidating.

[Magnus_Samma]

Anime fanboy?

Beowulf fanboy, thanks very much.

[the_tick_rules]

there's also an epic feat with monkey grip as a pre req in complete warrior (or adventurer, as previously stated i always mix up those two) that let you use weapons as if you were one category bigger than you actually are.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

there's also an epic feat with monkey grip as a pre req in complete warrior (or adventurer, as previously stated i always mix up those two) that let you use weapons as if you were one category bigger than you actually are.

It is called Wield Oversized Weapon and can be found on page 153 of Complete Warrior.

[Person_Man]

I wouldn't have a problem with Monkey Grip with no To-Hit penalties.

But I would require that it be for a specific weapon, and I would require Greater Weapon Specialization as a pre-req. That way, anyone willing to go up to Fighter 12 and invest 4 feats in one weapon would get to wield an insanely powerful version of that weapon. And at level 12, Wizards are throwing around Empowered area of effect spells that cause 18d6 damage, Disintigrate, Dominate Person, etc. So giving the Fighter 12 an extra 3.5 points of damage on each attack is fine with me.

[Fax Celestis]

Why GWS? Why not GWF and WS? Beyond that, I think it makes sense.

[Matthew]

Beowulf fanboy? What has Beowulf got to do with oversized weapons?

[Fax Celestis]

...Beowulf uses exotic weaponry? Damfino.

[MrNexx]

Beowulf, in fighting Grendel's mother, uses a sword of the ettins, who are often translated as giants.

[Matthew]

I thought that might be what this was about! No textual evidence for giant swords there, I'm afraid...

[Kraitos]

A Ftr6 with Two Warmaces + TWF + Oversize TWF + ITWF + TWD + ITWD could be interesting. Revenge of the "cry yourself to sleep" die indeed.

Sorry, I read that and could just hear a DM friend of mine:
DM: "You need how many d12s?"

[Pegasos989]

A Ftr6 with Two Warmaces + TWF + Oversize TWF + ITWF + TWD + ITWD could be interesting. Revenge of the "cry yourself to sleep" die indeed.

Yeah, I tried to play that once, but gave up after it being too crippled. I think the quote from my DM was something like
"So, you took all the TWF penalties, spent two feats just to get your offhand damage up by 3 points and mainhand 1 point, paid 2 points of armorclass for the fun and it actually took you a better part of three levels before giving up."

Needing to have profiency and oversized TWF in addition to normal TWF and improved TWF... And to negate the damn penalties to AC you actually need 2 more feats. It means you just spent 6 feats to get d12s instead of 2 feats and d6s (so 3 points of diffrence in average damage of each attack for 4 feats. That is like weapon specialization divided by three.)...

[cupkeyk]

The key to making a character that wields an unnecessarily large weapon is taking the Master of The Unseen Hand prestige class.

[Magnus_Samma]

I thought that might be what this was about! No textual evidence for giant swords there, I'm afraid...

No textual evidence against it, though, and logically a sword forged by a giant would be larger than a human-made one. Beyond that, Beowulf often recounts characters performing superhuman feats of strength (swimming for three days in iron mail armor, tearing a monster's arm off) and treating these frankly impossible tasks as almost commonplace occurences. That's the flavor in the story that I love that fits so well with D&D: The idea that great warriors can simply DO stuff that defies the laws of physics, because they're just that good. And carting around weapons as big as you are just seems like a natural extention of that to me.

[Turcano]

I wish people would stop saying anyone who uses Monkey Grip is an anime fanboy/girl. I've seen plenty of people who have picked Monkey Grip solely because they want to do something like the picture for it. People who don't even know what anime is.

We can still accuse them of overcompensation, right?

Beowulf fanboy, thanks very much.

I think that Beowulf just sucked it up and went with the -4 penalty; he would have been pretty high level, anyway.

The only real way to make Monkey Grip worthwhile is to either reduce the penalty to -1 or eliminate it entirely. An "Improved Monkey Grip" isn't really worth it, since it's a two-feat investment that is still outclassed by Power Attack/Leap Attack.

[Fax Celestis]

The only real way to make Monkey Grip worthwhile is to either reduce the penalty to -1 or eliminate it entirely. An "Improved Monkey Grip" isn't really worth it, since it's a two-feat investment that is still outclassed by Power Attack/Leap Attack.

There's no reason you can't use both at the same time, you know.

[Turcano]

Yeah, but that's also true about Monkey Grip as it stands now.

[MrNexx]

No textual evidence against it, though, and logically a sword forged by a giant would be larger than a human-made one. Beyond that, Beowulf often recounts characters performing superhuman feats of strength (swimming for three days in iron mail armor, tearing a monster's arm off) and treating these frankly impossible tasks as almost commonplace occurences. That's the flavor in the story that I love that fits so well with D&D: The idea that great warriors can simply DO stuff that defies the laws of physics, because they're just that good. And carting around weapons as big as you are just seems like a natural extention of that to me.

Actually, when I took Old English a few years ago, it was pointed out that the word used for "swam" was the same as a word for "rowed"; I'd have to find it in my facing translation to give you the word, and those might be packed, to show the the arguments they used (though that class was weird; I was the only undergrad, the only non-English major, and the only person with a working knowledge of grammar... and that came from taking Latin and German concurrently with that course).

However, ad res, there's a few possibilities. First of all, one could assume that his ettin-blade was actually a ettin-sized short sword, and thus more appropriately sized for him. Since it was so long ago, he was OBVIOUSLY under the 1st edition rules covering such things, and so wouldn't have any penalty to use it, since an ettin short sword would be the right size.

[Magnus_Samma]

... okay, yeah, just forget I said anything.

[Foeofthelance]

Personally, leave the -2 penalty, just allow it to work with all the other feats, especially two weapon fighting. Granted, it is a rather focused combat style, and is hard to turn off, but it is rather satisfying to be dealing several hundred damage a turn. Especially when adding in a few spare feats such as improved crit. Throw in a haste ability...

By the time I was level twelve, I had seven attacks, at regular or better attack bonuses, and dealt 2d8+double digit damage on a regular strike. I'll see if I can't find the build and post it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

We can still accuse them of overcompensation, right?

Go right ahead.

[Draco Ignifer]

Personally, I'd just reduce the penalty to -1. Longsword to Greatsword grants +2.5 damage, Greatsword to REALLY Greatsword grants +3.5 damage... close enough to +3 for government work. Since Weapon Specialization is +2, it seems a tad too strong to eliminate the penalty altogether, so just balance it with a -1... makes choosing between the two reasonable.