RPGing Exercise 1#: "The God Pool" Morality Puzzle

[Charles Phipps]

We had a fun question in our campaign that was part of a divine test that the players were supposed to pass in order to be able to claim a piece of the Rod of Seven parts. My players love RPGing out alignment and the myriad morality problems that come with their views.

Our last one was amazingly successful as it weighed two options and forced the player characters to choose. I thought it would be cool to test the Players of this forum as to how they (or their characters) or their characters might react to a complex question of which is more valuable.

The player arrives at a sacred pool of Torm Trueheart, a LG Deity of Honor and Nobility. It is stated that whomever wishes to claim an item from the sacred vault must pass tests of Valor and Honor before a final test of wisdom. Through whatever means, the player characters have managed to pass the tests of Valor and Honor. Now it is a quest for testing their wisdom.

The pool then swirls with an image of a pretty, though not beautiful, copper haired girl whom was dressed in a nightshirt. The young woman could not be any older than seventeen as she was struggling with a broadsword that was too large for her and using it as a walking stick while she stumbled along through a dank and deserted ruin. She looked close to death and he saw the fang marks on her neck.

A voice speaks outloud above the sacred pool. "This is Rebecca of Kryptgarden. She is, strangely enough, a Knight of Kelemvor. She is the last heir of a proud and noble lineage. Rebecca's family, though once noble knights of Samular, fell to insanity and undeath as she alone discovered the truth."

"She is also dying. Having slain many evils, Rebecca finally tracked down were her family had fled and destroyed most of the vampires in the morning, though it broke her heart. Unfortunately, her own sister and flesh and blood cursed her at the moment of final death. By curse's power, the bite will slowly kill her and then raise her up as a soulless monster."

"The power of the pool can rush her forward with Kelemvor's cleansing power with the blessing of Torm. The Curse will be burned from her body and while she will awaken in the morning sick, she will be able to use her supernatural strength to heal herself."

"She will then go on to become a Great and Famous Knight. Only the second woman to ever become a member of the Knights of Samular."

The pool then swirls again as it shifted to a group of a dozen men, some women, and a few children. All of them were being stalked through wilderness and forrest in chains. They were being lead by a group of Hyena headed men that were all over seven feet tall and they were bedecked in chain mail that was decorated in the Symbol of the Iron Throne.

"This sorry lot is the last survivors of a group of settlers from Waterdeep coming to live in the Silver Marches. Obould Many Arrows; an Orc blessed with magical items that have enhanced his intelligence, strength, and charisma to give him inhuman potential to unite the orcs of the Silver Marches."

"The Gnoll with gray skin, the Flind, is Natch Krieger. A worshipper of Cyric and seasoned mercenary. He brings the humans as a good will offering to Obould in hopes of becoming the warrior's confident. Combined with the magical gifts that were a gift from his employer, Natch will supply a much needed military expertise in the coming war with Silverymoon."

"The Orcs of the Silver Marches are disunited and scattered with many great raiders but few tacticians. If he's struck down by Torm's power, as is possible, then the humans will be able to escape and certainly it will be more difficult for Obould to manage his war. One that is unavoidable now."

"There is only power for one. Which do you use the power for?"

I stated that there was no 'right' answer amongst the PCs after they made their decision, it was mostly a test of their capacity to make a difficult decision between two very tough choices.

So, which is the choice that SHOULD be made?

[[red][/red]]

So, you're asking us to choose between a massive war that will destroy countless lives, and a knight dying.

I'll go with the first one.

[Zincorium]

Personally, I'd go for healing the paladin. Why?

1. Concrete consequences. Leaving the people enslaved will make a difficult war somewhat more so. Letting the paladin die will mean setting loose a high level, extremely powerful vampire on the world as well as removing a powerful champion of good.

2. Drizzt will take care of the Obould problem. Duh . Okay, that's not valid character reasoning.

3. Personal value. We have no idea of the people being led in chain's character, although presumably the children are 'innocents' for whatever that's worth. The female knight has been a valiant person and will continue to be if the information we have is true (and we're not exactly expecting falsehood from Torm).


It's a tough choice, you're gonna regret what happens to the other instance. And hopefully these are theoretical, Torm's a god, and if the situations are real, and he can do one, then he can do both.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

We had a fun question in our campaign that was part of a divine test that the players were supposed to pass in order to be able to claim a piece of the Rod of Seven parts. My players love RPGing out alignment and the myriad morality problems that come with their views.

Our last one was amazingly successful as it weighed two options and forced the player characters to choose. I thought it would be cool to test the Players of this forum as to how they (or their characters) or their characters might react to a complex question of which is more valuable.



I stated that there was no 'right' answer amongst the PCs after they made their decision, it was mostly a test of their capacity to make a difficult decision between two very tough choices.

So, which is the choice that SHOULD be made?

The girl is the priority, there is no known spell I can think of to cure her with 100% accuracy.

The war with the Orcs is something that I would see as an adventure plot. I would first gain as much information as I can from that scrying bowl thingy concerning the war. Then I'd cure the girl, and after curing the girl, I would immediately begin my trek to fight against the orcs, using the magically obtained knowledge for sweet justice.

[herrhauptmann]

My characters would vary depending on their opinions, even for those of the same alignment. I personally, would choose to destroy the gnoll. My reasoning, is that the woman chose her path to fight evil, and tragic as it is, has found her final fate. The gnoll however, by living would bring war to thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of innocents who did not themselves choose war. So the greater good would be to kill the gnoll.


Oddly enough, I can guarantee what my first groups usual Paladin would choose. He would grant the power to the cursed woman so that she would survive and destroy a great many evils.

[Skjaldbakka]

I am in favor of the "Save the paladin with Torm's power, and then teleport in to kill the gnoll myself" plan.

[Jasdoif]

Looks like the first one is the "best" choice to me. The choice for Rebecca is one of deserved healing, and a definite outcome for one that otherwise appears lost. Meanwhile, the other choice is for pre-deserving destruction, and a slight chance of altering the outcome for a group of many that could be attained in other ways.

Basically, the second choice is merely a cheap gamble: It might shift the course of the impending war, and it might not. And there are other ways to shift the course of said war. Meanwhile, time is running out for our paladin, and her healing will have a definite effect that would be difficult/impossible to get through other means.

[Nerd-o-rama]

There are several things to consider here:

1) How much damage will the knight cause if she is allowed to fall to undeath?
1b) As a corollary, were most of the paladins I've played in her position, they'd find a way to destroy themselves as soon as they'd turned, for example binding themselves to a rock outdoors awaiting morning. But that's not the focus of this exercise.
2) How much would she prevent if she were resuscitated?

3) How much damage will the Flind's alliance with Obould cause?
4) How much would the humans prevent if freed from his grasp?

Now...caution says that a band of evildoers in an army will probably contribute more to whatever they're doing than a lone heroine. On the other hand, strictly speaking, it's probably better to use this divine gift to give life to a hero than indiscriminate death to petty bandits.

Here's my "heroic" character's solution:

I thank the Pool of Plot very much for its information, and request that it free the girl from her curse. Then, I rush off for the Frozen North to stop Natch and his band, or failing that, supplement Silverymoon's defenses with my own skill and information on Obould's new recruits. This, I feel, is the most good outcome that makes the fullest use of the pool's and my personal powers.

Of course, if I was playing a character with Break Enchantment or the like, I could do it the opposite way, but very seldom do I play spellcasters.

Also, with my choice, I can say "Save the Paladin. Save the World." in my most somber voice, then teleport away. OOC, it's worth it just for that.

[Xefas]

If I, personally made the choice, within the context of the setting, I would save the Paladin.

Given the D&D Afterlife, where the Lower Planes are a very real place to go, I would be *far* more concerned with the resting place of a person's soul. If that chick becomes a vampire, she's going to most likely commit some heinous acts, which will damn her to eternal suffering.

The captives/citizens are going to be killed, yes, but if they're good people, then they'll be sent to the Upper Planes, where whatever pain they faced in the Prime will be as nothing to their blissful eternity.

And if some of the captives/citizens are evil, then they chose to be evil. Its much different than being forced to be evil by becoming a vampire.

[AslanCross]

I'd save the girl, possibly teleport to her and ask for her aid to help in the impending war. There is just no assurance as to what will happen to the people when they're freed---if they're in a dangerous area with orcs and gnolls lurking about, they might just get captured again. Saving the girl prevents the appearance of a new evil and retains a champion on the side of good who can possibly help save those humans.


On the other hand, given that the girl's a paladin of Kelemvor herself and she knows she's about to become a vampire, she'd most likely find a way to destroy herself when the curse finally takes place; undead are anathema to the church of Kelemvor, after all. Still, that's only a net loss on the side of good, and the fate of the humans will still be uncertain. I think that either way, the prisoners will end up in an uncertain situation, where in the case of the girl the result can be predicted to end in one of a few ways:
1. If she is not saved, she will either become a powerful vampire who will make life difficult for a lot of innocents, or she will find a way to destroy herself when the transformation happens.
2. If she is saved, she will most likely continue to fight on the side of good and may be a worthy ally.

With the prisoners, it's all up in the air. I'd go with something I can be sure of.

[CatCameBack]

Personally, my character would use the power to create a really tasty ham sandwich and let the Realms burn.

I don't like Forgotten Realms.

Seriously, I'd probably bring back the Paladin. A force for good is invaluable, and it sounds as if she was taken "before her time". War would only be averted for a few years, until another gifted humanoid rose to lead the orcs.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

I don't like Forgotten Realms.

As spoken in middle english: It doeth blowith merily.

Edit: you know I really don't see the problem in this choice, it's pretty clear that if the adventurers really did give a hoot, they would cure the girl with the power of the god, and then enter the war themselves and stop it.

[sun_tzu]

I've myself changed opinion several times while reading this thread. I can find very good arguments for either decision, but all things considered, I'll save the prisoners for a simple reason: If the paladin had a choice between her rescue and theirs, I'm fairly confident she'd want to save them.

[Cruiser1]

I'd also save the girl, but for a different reason: Healing her is definitely a good act, since it's peacefully helping someone. Smiting the Gnoll from afar in a cowardly fashion could be considered an evil act, since it's aggressively killing him without trying to reform him or find a peaceful solution, and it's too much along the lines of "the ends justify the means" for my comfort.

[Charles Phipps]

Interesting, what would be the *proper* Paladin's decision?

[Mike_Lemmer]

I'd say she should ask Torm to heal her, then repay him for his generous help by teleporting to the gnoll, killing him, and freeing the prisoners.

This is, for all intents, a miracle. There's thousands of ways to kill somebody. There's few ways to save somebody. Use the miracle for the harder problem & use more mundane means for the easier problem. If solving the harder problem helps you solve the easier problem too, all the better.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Interesting, what would be the *proper* Paladin's decision?

My answer stands for most Good characters I'd play, including my favorite class.

[Lemur]

What would I do (assuming I'm a reasonably good person)? Without reading any of the other responses yet, I'd have to go with saving the captured settlers. It's not particularly important that Obould's war effort will be hampered by the Natch's death.

The primary reason is that the settlers are innocents, while Rebecca is a warrior. A noble warrior who fights for a good cause, but all warriors know the risks of what they do. Death could come at any moment, and when fighting creatures like vampires, becoming the enemy is a risk as well. Her death will certainly be a tragic thing, especially considering her illustrious future, but it does not justify sacrificing the lives of people trying to live an ordinary life. If Rebecca was in my situation, and I in hers, wouldn't she make the same decision, being a proud and noble warrior?

[deadseashoals]

I'd save the group... it sounds like the paladin would want it that way. Real choice there though, props to you

[Roderick_BR]

I find this kind of moral dillema interesting.
Hmm... my gut reaction is to cure the knight. smiting the leader of the orcs would prevent war and death of thousands, though.
But as someone said, curing the knight would both restore a champion of good, and prevent a greater evil to be unleashed.
Letting the orc live, however you are allowing a possible war that can kill hundreds before it's stopped.
But, who says that killing said orc will prevent the war at all? Or future ones? I'd say that curing a knight of a powerful curse is the sort of thing you need divine power to do. A war can be stopped by valiant armies. And having a powerful knight on your side will tip the scales in your favor.

I'd save the knight.

It also reminds me of the last level of StarTreck Starfleet Academy for SNES.

Spoiler

Show

In the last level, you are faced with a choice. A star will explode soon, and there's two ships close to it, but far from each other.
One have the last survivors of an entire race. If they die, the race will be completely extinct.
The other is a race of scientists that can find cure for hundreds of diseases for the whole galaxy.
You can warp in, teleport the passengers of one ship into your own, and warp out. You can save only one ship.

Solution: If you do try to save both, the star explodes before you manage to escape. You can really save only one ship.
You need to pick one (any is correct), warp to a far place, and wait a few minutes.
After the explosion, one of the characters complains that this was an unfair exam, and Kirk himself shows up to tell him that the purpose of that test was to show that sometimes you can't save all, and must concentrate on doing what you can.
In this case, trying to save both ships will get both killed. You need to pick one, and accept that you couldn't have saved both.

[Kizara]

Really, this is fairly obvious:

Who, in the scheme of DnD, is going to have more of an impact on the world?

1) High level Paladin.

2) Bunch of commoners that will almost assuredly die ANYWAYS. You only get to kill the gnoll leader, they are still SoL when it comes to the rest of the band. As a side effect, you can hamper the war effort. So?

Why that isn't even a valid reason:

1) The paladin could probably take out the gnoll herself, since by description she is probably more powerful.

2) This comming war, and the success of bringing all the bands of evil things together, gives you an excellent opportunity to wipe out alot of evil. All the evil is conviently massing itself into one ball and throwing itself at you. Far from a problem, this is actually FANTASTIC!

[Kizara]

I find this kind of moral dillema interesting.
Hmm... my gut reaction is to cure the knight. smiting the leader of the orcs would prevent war and death of thousands, though.
But as someone said, curing the knight would both restore a champion of good, and prevent a greater evil to be unleashed.
Letting the orc live, however you are allowing a possible war that can kill hundreds before it's stopped.
But, who says that killing said orc will prevent the war at all? Or future ones? I'd say that curing a knight of a powerful curse is the sort of thing you need divine power to do. A war can be stopped by valiant armies. And having a powerful knight on your side will tip the scales in your favor.

I'd save the knight.

It also reminds me of the last level of StarTreck Starfleet Academy for SNES.

Spoiler

Show

In the last level, you are faced with a choice. A star will explode soon, and there's two ships close to it, but far from each other.
One have the last survivors of an entire race. If they die, the race will be completely extinct.
The other is a race of scientists that can find cure for hundreds of diseases for the whole galaxy.
You can warp in, teleport the passengers of one ship into your own, and warp out. You can save only one ship.

Solution: If you do try to save both, the star explodes before you manage to escape. You can really save only one ship.
You need to pick one (any is correct), warp to a far place, and wait a few minutes.
After the explosion, one of the characters complains that this was an unfair exam, and Kirk himself shows up to tell him that the purpose of that test was to show that sometimes you can't save all, and must concentrate on doing what you can.
In this case, trying to save both ships will get both killed. You need to pick one, and accept that you couldn't have saved both.

You can't kill the orc leader, you can only kill the gnoll leader of a small mercenary band escorting a couple dozen human commoners. You won't prevent anything, at absolute best you will make the coming war easier to win.

[ZeroNumerous]

Myself.

Why do I care whether goody-two-shoes goes off and gets herself killed? After using my new Wish, I'd teleport to the paladin and watch her die. When she becomes undead, a simple Command Undead gives me a new minion. From there, it's teleporting over to the gnoll, killing him, and then taking his humans to give to the Emperor so that I may assist him against Silverymoon. Once his armies are away, attacking the humans and killing as many as possible, I assassinate the Emperor and his family. Once I've ensured that I've murdered them all, I systematically begin eliminating the noble caste until no one is left to claim legitimate power to the throne.

My subsequent actions will demand upon the chaos sewn by these acts. If there is anyone charismatic enough to garner much support among the orcs, then I find them and murder them. Eventually, my actions will have caused enough chaos to complacate the world.

Ultimately, I achieve world peace through Chaos and Evil.

[mostlyharmful]

got to go with the save a high level good NPC from becoming a high level frickn vampire NPC over assassinating one mid level flunky. The prisoners are a complete red herring, you can't save them. Also by pointing out one of Oboulds future support leaders Torm has made the war easier to fight/win. Plus you'll have a high level pally to help you

[Blanks]

Aslan Solaris, Priest of Tyr:
Save the children. Whatever else may happen they are children and should allways be our first priority. The paladin chose to fight vampires, the children didn't choose anything.
Save the children.

[mostlyharmful]

Aslan Solaris, Priest of Tyr:
Save the children. Whatever else may happen they are children and should allways be our first priority. The paladin chose to fight vampires, the children didn't choose anything.
Save the children.

You can't save the children. All you can do is kill the leader of the bandits, then you have lots of scared bandits, that are liable to do any damn thing. the children are just as screwed, if not more so for the sudden lack of stability in their captors. the captives will be able to escape doesn't save them from the war or put them in a safe environment away from the savage north, they just get a short reprieve. To save them you'd need to be there and then escort them to civilisation.

[Charles Phipps]

The player character made a choice, FYI, similar to some of the people here. The player character chose to smite the Gnoll and rescue the children while intending to try and get to the lady to end her before she rises as the undead (or, gods willing, save her.) At the very least, he'll try and put her down for Kelemvor and his own sake.

It was a very popular quiz though with the players.

I've actually started preparing a few other of these quizzes.

Here's two more "logic puzzles" that DO have answers. They're meant to be teasers though.

1. Elvish Land Swindle: The player characters find a group of refugees is at war with a bunch of elves in a nearby forest, though neither side is willing to risk their small numbers for an all out attack. The elves claim the entire region as their own and view the humans as interlopers. They reserve the right to kill tresspassers and people endangering their homes that their immortality depends upon since these elves draw their longeviety from their trees.

The great irony is that the refugees themselves aren't squatters but their leader claims the land in the name of an ancient human Empire that stood there centuries before. All of the refugees are genuinely the descendents of said Empire with simple biology meaning that all of them have claim to the noble bloodline that once had a city there. The Elves, while inhabiting the land for a few elvish generations, are actually the squatters after said region fell.

Both groups would like a peaceful settlement but its clear that any rebuilding of said city and doing more than picking dirt farming would require reclaiming the forest.

2. Zhentariam Civilization: The player characters have been sent to investigate where the Hell the Black Network has been getting it's rather vast collection of coinage and Humanoid mercenaries that they've been rather unstoppable with lately. The answer is in the land of Thar where the players find one of the group's typically disgusting deals. The Zhentariam trade relatively worthless trade goods to the Orcs, Kobolds, and Goblins in exchange for large amounts of valuable iron ore, coal, etc. with levies of troops to cover any quotas that aren't met.

The irony is that the Orcs have been genuinely prospering from their relationship despite getting the vastly shorter end of the stick. They've managed to construct human-equivalent levels of towns, pens for farm animals to feed their carnivorous appetites, and have dominated the local region with their increasingly good smithwork mixed with advanced weaponry (The Zhents introducing the Long Bow, Crossbow, and mildly effective tactics.)

Cloth, Nails, Tools, and farm equipment adds up over awhile.

Needless to say, the kingdom that hired them is going to be apoleptic that there's an Orc society in his backyard that will soon be a power to reckon with. One that has nothing but good will towards a group well preparing to wage a war of conquest. If they encourage their backers to strike now, they could well defeat it.

On the other hand....perhaps an Orc kingdom is a good thing? At the very least, the traders to the developing nation are gaining a substantial war chest.

[Kizara]

The player character made a choice, FYI, similar to some of the people here. The player character chose to smite the Gnoll and rescue the children while intending to try and get to the lady to end her before she rises as the undead (or, gods willing, save her.) At the very least, he'll try and put her down for Kelemvor and his own sake.

It was a very popular quiz though with the players.

I've actually started preparing a few other of these quizzes.

Here's two more "logic puzzles" that DO have answers. They're meant to be teasers though.

1. Elvish Land Swindle: The player characters find a group of refugees is at war with a bunch of elves in a nearby forest, though neither side is willing to risk their small numbers for an all out attack. The elves claim the entire region as their own and view the humans as interlopers. They reserve the right to kill tresspassers and people endangering their homes that their immortality depends upon since these elves draw their longeviety from their trees.

The great irony is that the refugees themselves aren't squatters but their leader claims the land in the name of an ancient human Empire that stood there centuries before. All of the refugees are genuinely the descendents of said Empire with simple biology meaning that all of them have claim to the noble bloodline that once had a city there. The Elves, while inhabiting the land for a few elvish generations, are actually the squatters after said region fell.

Both groups would like a peaceful settlement but its clear that any rebuilding of said city and doing more than picking dirt farming would require reclaiming the forest.

2. Zhentariam Civilization: The player characters have been sent to investigate where the Hell the Black Network has been getting it's rather vast collection of coinage and Humanoid mercenaries that they've been rather unstoppable with lately. The answer is in the land of Thar where the players find one of the group's typically disgusting deals. The Zhentariam trade relatively worthless trade goods to the Orcs, Kobolds, and Goblins in exchange for large amounts of valuable iron ore, coal, etc. with levies of troops to cover any quotas that aren't met.

The irony is that the Orcs have been genuinely prospering from their relationship despite getting the vastly shorter end of the stick. They've managed to construct human-equivalent levels of towns, pens for farm animals to feed their carnivorous appetites, and have dominated the local region with their increasingly good smithwork mixed with advanced weaponry (The Zhents introducing the Long Bow, Crossbow, and mildly effective tactics.)

Cloth, Nails, Tools, and farm equipment adds up over awhile.

Needless to say, the kingdom that hired them is going to be apoleptic that there's an Orc society in his backyard that will soon be a power to reckon with. One that has nothing but good will towards a group well preparing to wage a war of conquest. If they encourage their backers to strike now, they could well defeat it.

On the other hand....perhaps an Orc kingdom is a good thing? At the very least, the traders to the developing nation are gaining a substantial war chest.

First question:

1) This is WAY better then the OP question, as the lines of who is right is sufficiently blurrier.

2) I'm sorry, but "We've been living here for 1000 years (few elven generations" trumps "we used to belong to a civilization that existed 3000 years ago, here" pretty damn soundly. Claims are backed by power, power involves responsibility and stewardship of the land/people that your power is drawn from.

As for as resolving the issue at hand, I would think that the elves would respect the human's ancestry and if the humans were reasonable/respectful about it, maintain peaceful and productive relations with them. The elves could help them re-establish a city and re-start their noble civilization: somewhere else, that is nearby.

Second Question:

Don't really understand it, or the crucial question.

I get the part where a criminal organization has been trading and mutually prospering with an orc tribe, but what is the question at hand? Whether or not to attack the orcs? You need to say that, explicitly, as well as outline how practical it would be to actually accomplish that.

[Charles Phipps]

1. In this case, the Elvish argument is usually that human beings are attempting to move into their territories. In this case, the human beings have owned this territory and have nowhere else to go at this point. The elves are successful and prosperous but the humans are decidedly not due to whatever disaster drove them from their homeland.

They're decidedly annoyed the elves have "stolen" their territory.

2. The basic gist of the matter is the fact that the Orcs are serving as a supply force for a powerful evil organization. One that the presuming reigning kingdom of goodness in the area (Cormyr in this case) wishes to see put a stop to before it threatens their borders.

The PCs are surprised to discover that the Orcs have become very civilized (by Orc standards) thanks to their trade with the "evil" organization. It's possible that, given time, they could become a regular race of good....or ambigous morality like humans.

[Kizara]

1. In this case, the Elvish argument is usually that human beings are attempting to move into their territories. In this case, the human beings have owned this territory and have nowhere else to go at this point. The elves are successful and prosperous but the humans are decidedly not due to whatever disaster drove them from their homeland.

They're decidedly annoyed the elves have "stolen" their territory.

2. The basic gist of the matter is the fact that the Orcs are serving as a supply force for a powerful evil organization. One that the presuming reigning kingdom of goodness in the area (Cormyr in this case) wishes to see put a stop to before it threatens their borders.

The PCs are surprised to discover that the Orcs have become very civilized (by Orc standards) thanks to their trade with the "evil" organization. It's possible that, given time, they could become a regular race of good....or ambigous morality like humans.

1) This reiteration has not changed my stance on the matter.

2) OK, but what is the QUESTION that is being asked of the reader/character? What are the options? What is the viability of those options?