OOTS #1236 - The Discussion Thread

[Dire_Flumph]

I would be very surprised if anyone in the Order, who have zero knowledge of Serini's diary, manage to deduce that Xykon learned of the other gates by reading Serini's diary.

Don't they though?

[danielxcutter]

I don't see how "you weren't avle to fight Xykon" is going to help convince her that Xykon must be fought.

I suspect “if you weren’t out in the open for Xykon to find you, then he’d never have found your Gate in the first place” or something on those lines might do a bit more?

[Peelee]

Don't they though?

Ah, forgot about that. Fair.

[CountDVB]

I suspect “if you weren’t out in the open for Xykon to find you, then he’d never have found your Gate in the first place” or something on those lines might do a bit more?

Don't they though?

More or less, but I suspect it’d be more of the collected annoyance at the Scribblers’ collective failures and how it’s led to this, especially if Serini is gonna try and take the high ground on this.

I mean, Roy looked real mad at Girard there back when the thing went off and here, I imagine accusations thrown at them would anger each one of them for different reasons and thus each taking their turn at pointing out the flaws in Serini’s process.

[JessmanCA]

What do orange swirly eyes mean? have we seen that color eyes in a spell before?

[hamishspence]

Swirly eyes in general mean enchantment magic, the shade of the swirlyness tends to be tied to the colour of the caster's magic.

Nale, whose magic is yellow, produces yellow swirly eyes:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html

Vampire Durkon, whose magic is red, produces red swirly eyes:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html

and so on.

[TRH]

I guess it occurred to me at some point that someone will eventually point out that, well, "You've failed to defeat Xykon, so your judgment on how to handle him can no longer be trusted!" said someone who failed to defeat Xykon, and whose judgment should totally be trusted.

I can't imagine it'd so much as faze her, though. Why should anyone care about being a hypocrite when the fate of the world is at stake?

[Rrmcklin]

I guess it occurred to me at some point that someone will eventually point out that, well, "You've failed to defeat Xykon, so your judgment on how to handle him can no longer be trusted!" said someone who failed to defeat Xykon, and whose judgment should totally be trusted.

I can't imagine it'd so much as faze her, though. Why should anyone care about being a hypocrite when the fate of the world is at stake?

She's not trying to defeat Xykon though, and from a purely logical position she's probably spot on about their chances of winning. This is a story so narrative convention matters, but she doesn't know that (or rather, the characters' only think like that when it's supposed to be funny).

[danielxcutter]

She's not trying to defeat Xykon though, and from a purely logical position she's probably spot on about their chances of winning. This is a story so narrative convention matters, but she doesn't know that (or rather, the characters' only think like that when it's supposed to be funny).

I mean, the only reason I’m this frustrated with her is because she doesn’t seem to either know or care that the Snarl can literally rip the multiverse to shreds rather than just being another generic doomsday device. I guess she might not know that the gods were willing to destroy the world, but she should at least be aware of the possibility as well.

[Fyraltari]

Quick question: does any of our casters have Invisibility Purge? I don't remember the Order fighting invisible ennemies before.

From the Frost Giant and Exaargh fight, I gather that spell is more of a Cleric spell, but I reckon Durkon won't have it prepared because, well, Durkon. Elan is barely a caster and he's incapacitated right now. Could V cast it? V has Invisibility so that sounds like something that would come with.

[Ruck]

I don't think we've seen them use Invisibility Purge, but Durkon did dispel Xykon's invisibility with Greater Dispel Magic. Without knowing a whole lot about D&D mechanics, I'd be surprised if one of them didn't have that or something else sufficient* prepared.

(* - I dunno if regular Dispel Magic would work or what kind of invisibility is being used here.)

[danielxcutter]

Invisibility Purge is a Cleric-only spell I believe, and Glitterdust’s a Conjuration spell so V can’t do that either.

Really, I know the Giant is purposely making them unoptimized, but they’re practically asking for a TPK. Especially since Rich has no such reluctance for antagonist builds.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think we've seen them use Invisibility Purge, but Durkon did dispel Xykon's invisibility with Greater Dispel Magic. Without knowing a whole lot about D&D mechanics, I'd be surprised if one of them didn't have that or something else sufficient* prepared.

(* - I dunno if regular Dispel Magic would work or what kind of invisibility is being used here.)

Good call, I had forgotten that.

Invisibility Purge is a Cleric-only spell I believe, and Glitterdust’s a Conjuration spell so V can’t do that either.

Really, I know the Giant is purposely making them unoptimized, but they’re practically asking for a TPK. Especially since Rich has no such reluctance for antagonist builds.

Well, there's a reason "David vs Goliath" is a popular match up.

[danielxcutter]

I suppose if she’s using a wand, scroll, or magic item for invisibility, a normal area-version Dispel Magic would probably short it out with not much risk of wiping out their own buffs.

[dancrilis]

Rather then invisibility purge or glitterdust they could just have Vaarsuvius cast see invisibility, it wouldn't help the rest of the party directly but would let Vaarsuvius inform them about the invisible person and the location thereof and it lasts a lot longer then invisibility purge or glitterdust and is much more reliable them dispel magic.

[Peelee]

[QUOTE=Fyraltari;25091952]From the Frost Giant and Exaargh fight, I gather that spell is more of a Cleric spell/QUOTE]

The tricky thing with D&D is that it can be hard to tell a Wizard/Sorc spell from a Cleric/Druid spell except for the obvious ones. Generally, Clerics and Druids can heal while Wizards and Sorcerers can't, but W/Ss have big blasty spells while C/Ds don't. It even that isn't hard and fast.

Utility spells can be a toss up.

[danielxcutter]

Rather then invisibility purge or glitterdust they could just have Vaarsuvius cast see invisibility, it wouldn't help the rest of the party directly but would let Vaarsuvius inform them about the invisible person and the location thereof and it lasts a lot longer then invisibility purge or glitterdust and is much more reliable them dispel magic.

Yeah - and then Serini shreds V with poisoned crossbow bolts. I doubt she wouldn’t have prepared against that.

From the Frost Giant and Exaargh fight, I gather that spell is more of a Cleric spell

The tricky thing with D&D is that it can be hard to tell a Wizard/Sorc spell from a Cleric/Druid spell except for the obvious ones. Generally, Clerics and Druids can heal while Wizards and Sorcerers can't, but W/Ss have big blasty spells while C/Ds don't. It even that isn't hard and fast.

Utility spells can be a toss up.

Invisibility Purge really isn’t on the Sorc/Wiz list though. Also FYI, Druids have better blasting than Clerics, though still worse than arcanists.

[dancrilis]

Yeah - and then Serini shreds V with poisoned crossbow bolts. I doubt she wouldn’t have prepared against that.

Protection for Arrows also protects from crossbow bolts.

[Snails]

Especially since Rich has no such reluctance for antagonist builds.

NPCs often have some observable degree of optimization, but they are very very far from polished works from a minmax perspective. Xykon, notably, seems to lack any means to directly counter Invisibility, which is a glaring hole for someone who prides himself on his ability to take out Wizards.

I, suppose, in a pinch, he Readies an Action to hit his best guess square with Supreme Dispelling. But that would suh-huck if he were tested at a gaming table rather than in a story.

[Squire Doodad]

Invisibility Purge really isn’t on the Sorc/Wiz list though.

Okay, but Redcloak is a Cleric. I'm pretty sure that if we had seen the party try to ambush Xykon and co with invisibility and RC or Xykon noticed/had True Seeing up, then RC would drop a round of Invisibility Purge.

Because both of them are moderately paranoid, high level adventurers can use Invisibility and ambush you, and it's just a spell slot or two instead of building your kit around it.

[danielxcutter]

Protection for Arrows also protects from crossbow bolts.

Sure - non-magical arrows and bolts. It fails miserably as soon as the arrow has a +1 bonus, and I have no idea why you’d think an epic rogue would only use masterwork weapons.

Okay, but Redcloak is a Cleric. I'm pretty sure that if we had seen the party try to ambush Xykon and co with invisibility and RC or Xykon noticed/had True Seeing up, then RC would drop a round of Invisibility Purge.

Because both of them are moderately paranoid, high level adventurers can use Invisibility and ambush you, and it's just a spell slot or two instead of building your kit around it.

Uh, okay? I was talking about how V can’t cast it instead since Durkon would never have it prepared in a situation where it might help though?

[dancrilis]

Sure - non-magical arrows and bolts. It fails miserably as soon as the arrow has a +1 bonus, and I have no idea why you’d think an epic rogue would only use masterwork weapons.

I am not entirely sure what you are arguing for here - that invisibility purge or glitterdust would be better then see invisibility, they are different spells with different uses so depending on circumstances yes.

However the easiest counter she has to being spotted is likely high ranks in hide and move silently making any invisibility merely an unneeded buff.

If on the other hand she actually needs to rely on that invisibility then the idea that she would beat with ease a stoneskinned wizard who could hide in a round behind a forcecage/wall - but has no plans for what is known to be a fairly common cleric spell seems odd.

[Squire Doodad]

Uh, okay? I was talking about how V can’t cast it instead since Durkon would never have it prepared in a situation where it might help though?

Sorry, I got mixed up with the conversation about "antagonist builds" and optimization. Lost track of things, my bad.

[danielxcutter]

I am not entirely sure what you are arguing for here - that invisibility purge or glitterdust would be better then see invisibility, they are different spells with different uses so depending on circumstances yes.

However the easiest counter she has to being spotted is likely high ranks in hide and move silently making any invisibility merely an unneeded buff.

If on the other hand she actually needs to rely on that invisibility then the idea that she would beat with ease a stoneskinned wizard who could hide in a round behind a forcecage/wall - but has no plans for what is known to be a fairly common cleric spell seems odd.

I’m saying that See Invisibility alone does not mean they can easily find and beat her up.

[dancrilis]

I’m saying that See Invisibility alone does not mean they can easily find and beat her up.

That is correct I am not sure she is invisible at all - and if she is I doubt she would stand out in the open with it given the various methods of bypassing it, including true-seeing now that I think of it which both Vaarsuvius and Durkon have.

My initial post above could likely have been better with a few quotes embedded into it.

My basic point was 'yes the order has ways of seeing invisible people' the most obvious might be see invisibility, whether that would help with this specific invisible person or not is not something I commented on (until we started talking about how to deal with see invisibility).

If Serini's big plan is 'I am invisible therefore I am invincible' I will be somewhat disappointed in her.

[bunsen_h]

That is correct I am not sure she is invisible at all - and if she is I doubt she would stand out in the open with it given the various methods of bypassing it, including true-seeing now that I think of it which both Vaarsuvius and Durkon have.

Does the elvish ability to spot secret doors also cover things like tiny peep-holes in walls, ceilings, and floors?

[danielxcutter]

Does the elvish ability to spot secret doors also cover things like tiny peep-holes in walls, ceilings, and floors?

It certainly won’t cover things like Dimension Door wands that’s for sure.

[Clistenes]

She's not trying to defeat Xykon though, and from a purely logical position she's probably spot on about their chances of winning. This is a story so narrative convention matters, but she doesn't know that (or rather, the characters' only think like that when it's supposed to be funny).

What I don't get is, why does she bother interfering before they reach anywhere close to the gate? If the Order and the paladins fight Xykon either outside or inside one of the many dungeons, they can't blow out the gate even if they lose, because they are neither close to the gate nor they know where it is...

Serini should just let Xykon and the Order (and paladins) kill each other. If the Order defeats Xykon? nice, everything is solved.... If Xykon kills them? Well, at least Serini didn't have to dirty her hands disposing of some heroes...

The gate would be in danger only if Xykon and the Order found it at the same time and fought their final battle in front of it, but what are the chances of it happening...? Well, a Bard like Elan would say that is bound to happen because of narrative conventions, but Serini doesn't look like somebody to trust narrative conventions.... She doesn't think that Good will defeat Evil in the last minute, to begin with...

[hroþila]

What I don't get is, why does she bother interfering before they reach anywhere close to the gate? If the Order and the paladins fight Xykon either outside or inside one of the many dungeons, they can't blow out the gate even if they lose, because they are neither close to the gate nor they know where it is...

To be super nitpicky, we don't know where the Gate actually is or how to reach it. There's a non-zero chance that a fight in the corridors might affect the Gate.

More importantly, if the Order loses they might well tip off Team Evil as to how the trap works. Unwittingly or (conceivably) under torture.

But also, Serini doesn't want the Order to die. She wants to get them out of harm's way. Saying she should just let Xykon kill them is a misunderstanding of her character IMO.

[danielxcutter]

If ‘stop the idiots from committing Xykon-assisted suicide’ was that high up on her priority list I imagine she’d have mentioned it already. Though I suppose she was talking with paladins.

That being said I wonder if the portal scam is that strong of a defense? A group strong enough to not instantly get vaporized by the monsters in the fake dungeons would usually have either a mage who’d put in the work scanning the general area for magic and/or a trapfinder good enough to figure it out, so it’s more of a “you must be this tall” feature than a main line of a defense I think.

On the other hand, of course, Xykon doesn’t have the patience or diligence to scan every square with Detect Magic et. al or to wait for that, and nobody on Team Evil has trapfinding at all so no need to break it if it’s working I guess.